All this talk of Melonite/Ion Bond... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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asiparks
08-14-2011, 11:36
Lots of talk about the different finishes, I originally posted this over on TOS,
remember this is but a sample of one. your results might vary.....

'06 CBOB in melonite, 18,000 rounds through it, daily carry for nearly 4 years.....

Heinie 3D sights (poorly) added, EB checkered MS housing and Ambi safety, EGW bushing and spring plug, Harrison grips.

Melonite, flush cut SS pin,barrel recrown and general tidying by Drake's Gunworks.

I did a post on this some time ago, but i lost the pics, so I retook them today.
The pistol started out as a nicely even, matte , very dark, almost black, grey. As you can see, in the 4 years since it was melonited, it's taken on a kind of brushed sheen. It looks almost like a brushed blue, not unattractive.
There's an unevenness becoming visible in the left side of the slide, that's the side that rests against my body. As with most salt nitrocarburizing processes such as melonite, Tenifer, E treat, Isonite etc, the "blackness" comes form an application of black oxide or parkerizing after the melonite process. This coloring can wear or fade, although the underlying melonite is still doing it's thing. At some point I will look into re blacking the gun, but for now I rather like it. As you can see, aside from a slight burnishing of the rails and the firing pin tunnel, there's no real wear to speak of.
the rear sight is a lesson in why you shouldn't try to fit a sight when you're bored.....

new:

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100355/CIMG8413/web.jpg

after meloniting back in 07:

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100355/IMG_0863/web.jpg

and today : note "waviness on slide, coat of black oxide should smooth it out.

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3412/web.jpg

rail wear: just a burnishing in a couple of spots...

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3370/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3362/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3367/web.jpg

asiparks
08-14-2011, 11:36
lug wear:

http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3374/web.jpg


http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3417/web.jpg

Plug has resisted scratching from multiple ham fisted disassemblies


http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100426/IMG_3418/web.jpg

if there's anything else someone would like a pic of let me know.....

dp509
08-14-2011, 11:46
It looks great and has held up well.

What did it cost back then ?

What was the turn around time?

Who did the work ?

Great Gun :supergrin:

asiparks
08-14-2011, 13:35
Thankyou, it cost $189 and it was done by Drake of Drake's Gun works.

bac1023
08-14-2011, 13:43
Looks very nice :)

Quack
08-14-2011, 14:09
Thankyou, it cost $189 and it was done by Drake of Drake's Gun works.

too bad Drake doesn't do melonite unless he does work on the gun now.

denn1911
08-14-2011, 14:18
After 4 years of daily carry, it's held up well. Your pistol looks great with the melonite treatment.

asiparks
08-14-2011, 14:30
too bad Drake doesn't do melonite unless he does work on the gun now.

Drake didn't do it in house.

Quack
08-14-2011, 14:40
I know, but he used to take guns in to get done without any other work.

awpk03s
08-14-2011, 16:48
asiparks - I love that CBOB... never get tired of seeing pictures of that!

98_1LE
08-14-2011, 16:54
Wow that has held up incredibly well.

knedrgr
08-14-2011, 18:19
that thing looks sweet! Nice write up. Thanks.

Nakanokalronin
08-14-2011, 19:35
Looking pretty good to me!

I've thought about giving some guns the melonite treatment. Anyone know who currently does it with the best turn around time?

awpk03s
08-14-2011, 19:37
Looking pretty good to me!

I've thought about giving some guns the melonite treatment. Anyone know who currently does it with the best turn around time?

Dave Berryhill does it... don't know about turn around time, but I wouldn't hesitate about sending any gun to Berryhill.

TexasPOff
08-15-2011, 19:02
Well everything about this thread makes me feel better about sending my gun to Berryhill and getting the Melonite finish applied. Mr. Berryhill said turnaround is about four weeks. TXPO

majette
08-15-2011, 20:42
did the process cover up the markings on the frame or did you edit them out? thanks!

Cochese
08-18-2011, 03:39
did the process cover up the markings on the frame or did you edit them out? thanks!

I believe he shopped the serial and stuff out of the picture.

Not having a serial number on your pistola (obliteration) is a no-no.

Road Dog
08-18-2011, 14:23
Nice pistola!

asiparks
08-18-2011, 15:15
I believe he shopped the serial and stuff out of the picture.

Not having a serial number on your pistola (obliteration) is a no-no.

indeed, i blended them out in p'shop...
That said, they were so lightly lasered into the surface of the stainless that the black oxide part of the process made them somewhat harder to read. Rather than straight on, I have to angle the pistol to the light somewhat. But they are still in compliance.

Cochese
08-18-2011, 15:30
:cheers:

TexasPOff
08-18-2011, 18:27
Shipped my STI off today on its way to Mr. Berryhill@Berryhill Customs to recieve her new melonite treatment. I will of course post up when it returns, in fours weeks:crying:. The hardest thing is the pistol was only a week old, so the new had not worn of of it yet. Allthough after I finished grinding on it :faint: to flush mount the slide release, and fit the new grip safety, it was easier to send out. TXPO

faawrenchbndr
08-18-2011, 18:30
I've been thinking of dending my Springfield GI off for it. What was the quote for?

TexasPOff
08-18-2011, 19:10
The Melonite was $200 plus return shipping, and then state sales tax since I'm local. About $250 if your just doing a refinish. I am having a Heinie rear ledge added as well. My total was $343 door to door. Mr. Berryhill said he removes any minor imperfections prior to refinish. Any large issues that need to be taken care of, dings etc etc, are on a case by case basis. dave berryhill ahs been great to deal with in getting this set up. TXPO

awpk03s
08-18-2011, 19:28
If I do another gun in melonite in the future it will probably go to Berryhill. Truth be told, I have a whole list of things I'd like to have done to my 3" S&W and that job may well go to Berryhill too.

faawrenchbndr
08-18-2011, 20:49
Thanks Lane,.........:supergrin:

ProCarryNAustin
08-19-2011, 08:05
"Shipped my STI off today on its way to Mr. Berryhill@Berryhill Customs to recieve her new melonite treatment"

Very cool. Can't wait to see pics when it gets back. My STI Ranger II just hopped a plane to Severns. Will post those pics when it gets back.

Agent6-3/8
08-19-2011, 10:17
Ok, this is something that has long had me confused about melonite, tenifer and similar processes.

People state that the color is parkerizing or bluing and that the treatment is still effective even after the black finish has worn away. The later part I do not doubt. however, the part that confuses me is that if the black finish is just parking or bluing why doesn't it wear away at the same rate as the finish on a standard blued or parked pistol?

For example, I've had my G19 for about 4 years. Its seen lots of carry time in both leather and kydex holsters. While there is obvious wear on the polymer frame from countless draws the slide still shows zero wear. In fact, the only visible wear on any of the metal parts on is the barrel.

Other regualrly carried and fired guns of approximately the same age show a lot more wear. The back strap and grip safety on my parked SA Mil-Spec is very worn. The high spots on the slide also show holster wear. My blued S&W Mountain Gun is also nearly bare on the backstrap with slight holster wear on the barrel and cylinder.

Regardless of what you want to call it, the black finishs on older Glocks before they screwed the pooch, and the melonite 1911 shown in the OP is not "just bluing". This stuff wears like iron and is vastly superior to bluing, parking and other traditional finishes. There is some interesting chemistry at work here.

Could someone explain to me what the real deal with these finishes is?

polizei1
08-19-2011, 11:18
This is from John Harrison:

"IonBond DLC

IonBond DLC (stands for Diamond Like Carbon) is a hard black finish that is fairly new to the firearms market. It is a is a physical vapor deposition coating that has a 3-6 micron build up per surface (that's less than .005"). DLC can be applied to carbon steel, stainless steel, aluminum, over polished surfaces as well as matte surfaces. When bone-dry it is a dark charcoal color. With a little oil on it, it's black. It's hardness runs 70+ on the Rockwell "C" scale. I think it's the best all around option for a black firearms finish. It appears to be the equal to hard chrome in the durability and rust resistance departments. Black-T might be a better choice if rust resistance is the main criteria, like working in a salt water environment with no care given to wiping down every day or so, but in a less hostile climate or one with more care given, rust is a non-issue. There are a couple of peculiarites with DLC. It requires that the part be able to conduct an electrical charge, creating a problem in coating anodized aluminum. Anodizing is an insulator. If the aluminum is bare, it can be successfully coated with DLC. Type III hard coat anodizing might be a better choice for your aluminum frame than DLC in this respect: DLC (and hard chrome, too) is a little like an unpeeled hard-boiled egg. The exterior is fairly hard and tough, but because of the relative softness of the interior, that coating (or shell) is also a little bit brittle. Should an aluminum-framed pistol coated in such a manner be dropped and dented, the coating's adhesion with the substrate may be compromised. I don't consider that to be a huge deal. I understand that I've already made a compromise by selecting an aluminum frame to start with. I understand that aluminum is easier to dent than steel and I accept the risk. Anodizing penetrates the surface of the aluminum as well as building up the exterior. I'd recommend finishing your Lightweight Commander, for example, with Type III anodizing on the aluminum parts and DLC on the steel ones, getting the best of both worlds.

Another unique feature to know about DLC is that the shape of the part can have an impact on how the PVD process coats the part. For example, the shape of beavertail grip safeties can sometimes cause a faint, narrow "stripe" to be seen on the back side of the safety, where your hand goes. It changes appearance somewhat, due to light and the presence of oil. It is an anomaly that the IonBond people are trying to solve, but still shows up from time to time. I mention this because some guys after learning about DLC, get the idea that DLC is the modern day replacement for bluing and is superior is all regards. Well, it's not.

Bluing is a process where the parts are submerged in the salt bath and all surfaces are equally coated. The process for applying IonBond DLC requires that each part be tied to a wire that is hung from a fixturing tree after which a vacuum is drawn in the chamber and the atomized molecules are transferred through the vacuum to the negatively charged part being finished. It’s possible for a tiny speck of gray dust to land on a part at just the wrong time and a tiny white spot can occur. It’s something that IonBond works hard to avoid, but has been known to happen. If it does, the only thing that can be done is to abrasive blast the part until the finish is entirely stripped (which leaves the metal in a rough matte texture), then sand any polished surfaces back to whatever level they are supposed to be and send it back to IonBond to be recoated. IonBond will recoat the part at no charge. Were this a blued part, it could just be dipped a second time in many cases with no additional prep work. I will charge for any prep work involving sanding and any additional roll mark restoration needed. For this reason, I really recommend only doing matte IonBond finishes.

While DLC comes close to matching the appearance of bluing, it's not quite the equal in it's ability to have a consistent, uniform color, regardless of the shape of the part or the direction of the light. It also doesn't reflect light the same as bluing. It always looks a little hazy, just because it doesn’t reflect light the same way. If you're selecting a finish for your family heirloom, presentation grade pistol, where appearance is the chief concern, bluing is still the King. If you want a best of breed, black finish that excels in many areas and when durability is really important, DLC is the good stuff."

Severns Hard Hat which I believe is basically Melonite, no?

https://severnscustom.com/Hard_Hat_Treatment.html

BigDeeeeeeee
08-19-2011, 11:55
This is from John Harrison:
It is a is a physical vapor deposition coating that has a 3-6 micron build up per surface (that's less than .005"). A lot less than .005", it's .0001" to .0.0002". Take a hair from your head, filet it into 3 equal parts, then take one of those and filet it onto 10 equal parts, that's 3 microns.:wavey:

asiparks
08-19-2011, 12:14
DLC/Ionbond is not the same as melonite/nitrocarburizing....it's a completely different process in all regards.

To answer Agent, ( and I am not a chemical engineer, I am repeating what I've been told when asking Coal Creek, Drake and Freedom arms about their processes.... there are different nitrocarburizing/melonite variation, vendors might not use the same variety (http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html), and all bluings/black oxide finishes are far from equal. Kimber's black oxide might as well be finger paint, Browns bluing is deep and resilient.
What I was consistently told :Depending on the composition of the base steel, whether carbon, stainless, the amount of nickel or other elements present, the nitrocarburizing process leaves the metal a variably dark metallic grey. Sometimes it might be closer to black, but again, dependent of the base steel and the specific process. Then a layer of black oxide is applied. This blackens the melonited frame, slide etc, but also color matches the non melonited parts such as the hammer, FPS, extractor etc.

When the black on your guns wears, it's possibly wearing down to a dark grey rather than shiny silver, so the wear not as obvious. Could also be that the black oxide penetrates deeper in to the nitrocarburized surface or simply adheres better chemically. I know that my pistol has lost much of it's matte blackness and become more sheeny dark grey. I've been told that rebluing over the existing melonite will have it looking back to new.

Again this is my "understanding" call Coal Creek or maybe Mr Berryhill for more fact based info

TexasPOff
08-19-2011, 12:54
"Shipped my STI off today on its way to Mr. Berryhill@Berryhill Customs to recieve her new melonite treatment"

Very cool. Can't wait to see pics when it gets back. My STI Ranger II just hopped a plane to Severns. Will post those pics when it gets back.

I had considered Severns as well. In the end I was very happy with my dealings with Dave Berryhill, he was a bit less exspensive, and he is right here in Texas...:supergrin:. I fgured the pistol was made here, and should have all of it's work done here. Wouldn't want it too far from home. TXPO

polizei1
08-19-2011, 14:08
DLC/Ionbond is not the same as melonite/nitrocarburizing....it's a completely different process in all regards

I never said it was the same, but the thread is about both of them, not just Melonite. You should know this since you started it, or take the Ionbond out of the title. :whistling:

asiparks
08-19-2011, 19:20
I never said it was the same, but the thread is about both of them, not just Melonite. You should know this since you started it, or take the Ionbond out of the title. :whistling:

aye, but your reply to the fella above compared Ionbond and bluing processes when he'd asked about melonite and bluing....:wavey:

polizei1
08-20-2011, 08:06
But I also posted a link to Severns Hard Hat, which I thought was Melonite? :wavey:

Agent6-3/8
08-20-2011, 11:40
DLC/Ionbond is not the same as melonite/nitrocarburizing....it's a completely different process in all regards.

To answer Agent, ( and I am not a chemical engineer, I am repeating what I've been told when asking Coal Creek, Drake and Freedom arms about their processes.... there are different nitrocarburizing/melonite variation, vendors might not use the same variety (http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html), and all bluings/black oxide finishes are far from equal. Kimber's black oxide might as well be finger paint, Browns bluing is deep and resilient.
What I was consistently told :Depending on the composition of the base steel, whether carbon, stainless, the amount of nickel or other elements present, the nitrocarburizing process leaves the metal a variably dark metallic grey. Sometimes it might be closer to black, but again, dependent of the base steel and the specific process. Then a layer of black oxide is applied. This blackens the melonited frame, slide etc, but also color matches the non melonited parts such as the hammer, FPS, extractor etc.

When the black on your guns wears, it's possibly wearing down to a dark grey rather than shiny silver, so the wear not as obvious. Could also be that the black oxide penetrates deeper in to the nitrocarburized surface or simply adheres better chemically. I know that my pistol has lost much of it's matte blackness and become more sheeny dark grey. I've been told that rebluing over the existing melonite will have it looking back to new.

Again this is my "understanding" call Coal Creek or maybe Mr Berryhill for more fact based info

Ah, now that makes more sense...thanks! :wavey: