First Batch Complete! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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polizei1
08-15-2011, 14:58
Well, I want to thank Steve for all of the help and advice that everyone gave me over the past year or so. I finally loaded and shot my first reloads, and I wasn't nervous about them working at all, because I took my time and double checked my work.

Because I am using the Lee Pro powder measure, I'm not able to do the fine-tune adjustments like I would like to.

Precision Delta 124gr, 4.0gr Win 231, CCI SPP #500, COAL = 1.158"
Precision Delta 124gr, 4.3gr Win 231, CCI SPP #500, COAL = 1.160"
Mixed brass

The first batch I only loaded 10 rounds, because I had a feeling the 4.0gr's wasn't going to be enough to cycle my EMP, which was right. They failed to eject every single time, and failed to lock the magazine back.

The second batch I loaded 50 rounds, and they did a lot better. They all cycled perfectly, however 2 out of 10 magazines failed to lock back, and I have no idea why...any advice? I know the 1.160" OAL is a probably pushing the limits, but I measured WWB at 1.158" and they work perfectly in the EMP.

Ignoring my bad shooting and fliers, these were at 7 yards. I had my forearms on a bench and my hands in the air, kind of a terrible position. It's obvious that the first batch won't due, and it appears that if I take my time and aim, the second batch will be pretty accurate with mild recoil.

4.0gr:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/polizei1/DSC02220.jpg

4.3gr:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/polizei1/DSC02219.jpg

So now the big question...should I try the next size disk? It says it's 5.0gr's, which is the max load according to my Speer book. I'm starting to understand why you all told me to buy 1lb of powder and keep trying different ones....well, of course I didn't listen and I have 4lbs of Win 231. Should I stick with the 4.3gr load and see how it does in a USPSA match?

Reliability is huge for matches (obviously), and I'm concerned with the 2 failures to lock back the magazine. Should I try reducing my OAL slightly?

PCJim
08-15-2011, 15:12
I load on Dillon equipment, so can't help you with your Lee autodisk concerns. I do believe there is (an aftermarket?) adjustable disk available for it. Someone will chime in shortly and confirm...

As to the powder selection, W231 is a very versatile, relatively fast powder. It has been around quite a while (same as HP38 powder) and there is plenty of data available for it. You'll find a lot of use for it.

fredj338
08-15-2011, 15:27
5gr of W231 would be pushing way too hard. One reason I do NOT like fixed measure systems like the Lee. You can sand down the 5gr one & try that. Always weigh the charge, the Lee conversion chart is often light. Using 4.5-4.6gr should give you a reliable load. You are correct in loading small test lots of no more than 10rds w/ diff charge wts.

dkf
08-15-2011, 15:28
I do believe there is (an aftermarket?) adjustable disk available for it.

Below is a link to an adjustable charge bar if thats what your referring to. I could use some confirmation of what it does and what it replaces on the pro auto-disk also.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/ADJ-CHARGE-BAR.html

polizei1
08-15-2011, 17:09
Anyone know why the 2 mags failed to lock back? I have no idea why this would happen, but I think I'm going to load my next batch to something around 1.150" or 1.155" and see if that has any effect.

Also, I'm not too concerned with the powder measure. I know about the charge bar, but I've heard it's not that great...I'll just test different disks and see what I can come up with. I haven't tried the 5.0gr disk yet, but I'll throw some charges and see what it really weighs in at.

Colorado4Wheel
08-15-2011, 17:27
Shorten the 4.3 grs load to 1.130. See if that helps.

I sent you a couple pictures of how I made the disc smaller.

BTW, You don't sand the 5.0 Gr one down. You sand the one that gives you 4.3 gr and make it bigger. I would try the disc that is the next size up and see what powder throw/charge it gives you. I would bet it's more like 4.6 gr and not 5.0 gr. I am not looking at a load book to tell you that is safe. That is your job. But you can load the 4.3 gr shorter and increase the velocity or go up to the larger disc and load longer then the load book says is MIN case length. If 5 gr is max in your book I bet we can figure out a couple ways to get higher velocity and still stick with the fixed disc. Post your complete load data. Min Max, OAL etc. Then I will chime in based on your data.

fredj338
08-15-2011, 19:30
Anyone know why the 2 mags failed to lock back? I have no idea why this would happen, but I think I'm going to load my next batch to something around 1.150" or 1.155" and see if that has any effect.

Also, I'm not too concerned with the powder measure. I know about the charge bar, but I've heard it's not that great...I'll just test different disks and see what I can come up with. I haven't tried the 5.0gr disk yet, but I'll throw some charges and see what it really weighs in at.
I have a pretty new G32, it won't lock back w/ any mag, any caliber (I have a 9mm & 40 bbl for it). I am betting that I have an issue w/ the slide release but thought I should shoot it some more before checking out a new part.

Colorado4Wheel
08-15-2011, 19:53
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP


So Hodgon is saying 4.8 grs is max at 1.090" and 4.4 is min at the same OAL. I would say your WAY LIGHT. I would defiantly try the next disc up if it gives you under 4.8 grs and load it long like you have been doing.

polizei1
08-15-2011, 20:01
Ok I did some more digging...

What I did for these test was I re-zero'd my Dillon scale, I shook the powder measure, threw a charge, rotated all the stages, threw a charge and weighed it. I repeated this process until I got a 3-case (in a row) average.

The Lee "advertised" plate size/throw for Win 231:

Advertised:

.37 - 4.0gr
.40 - 4.3gr
.43 - 4.6gr
.46 - 4.9gr
.49 - 5.3gr

Actual:

.37 - 3.8gr
.40 - 4.2gr
.43 - 4.5gr
.46 - 4.8gr
.49 - 5.2gr

Now, I compared this to the Speer #14 manual that I have.

Speer says:

9mm TMJ RN
124gr
COAL Tested = 1.135"
Win 231 Min = 4.0gr, Max = 4.5gr

Lyman 49th says max OAL = 1.169"

Is the TMJ data that much different than FMJ? I couldn't find anything in Lyman except for JHP/Lead data.

The first batch I used the plate # .37, the second batch I used plate # .40. So apparently the loads were 3.8gr and 4.1gr's, actual.

Now for the mag issue, I know it's not my gun, nor my mags. I know this because it works fine with every factory round I've fired, so I know it's with the reloads with 100% certainty. My guess is that since I'm close to the max length, it's most likely my COAL.

I guess I'll try loading 10-round batches of different weights/OAL's and see what wants to work best. :) This is fun!

RustyFN
08-15-2011, 20:13
The second batch I loaded 50 rounds, and they did a lot better. They all cycled perfectly, however 2 out of 10 magazines failed to lock back, and I have no idea why...any advice?

Still a little light. The starting load for 231 is 4.4 and with your long OAL it makes it a little weaker.

So now the big question...should I try the next size disk? It says it's 5.0gr's, which is the max load according to my Speer book.

This makes me wonder if you have a scale. If you are just going by the Lee chart then your loads are probably lighter than you think. You need a good scale to know where you are at. Take Steve's advice and shorten the OAL a little. I prefer RN seated to 1.135 and HP's seated to 1.12.

Colorado4Wheel
08-15-2011, 20:14
The data I posted is off the Hodgon Site. Interestingly enough the factory site data match's your current load data the best. I would be inclined to use it (but work it up slowly). I would test a small batch using the next disc up loading long like you already did and also a batch using the current disc loading 1.130". Never trust the Lee data for actual loading. Use the scale every time.

Colorado4Wheel
08-15-2011, 20:17
My guess is that since I'm close to the max length, it's most likely my COAL.


I doubt your COAL is causing any problems at all.

PCJim
08-15-2011, 20:31
When I've experienced the slide failing to lock on the last round fired, it was due to rounds that were too weak. They were strong enough to cycle the slide and chamber a round, but not enough to get slide lock. Could very well be your problem, too.

albyihat
08-15-2011, 22:14
Just a cautionary word, anytime you make a jump in charge weight which is over 10% i.e. going from 4.0gr to 5.0gr you had better have very good reason and knowledge for doing so. That is a big jump and I would never make a jump like that without working up in small increments till I reached the upper limit. Just my 2 cents.

polizei1
08-16-2011, 05:19
Sweet I'll load up some more and I'll report back probably Friday if I can get to the range.

meleors
08-16-2011, 08:42
My personal load with HP38/W231 in a Glock 17:

124 gr FMJ
1.140 OAL
4.6 gr HP38/W231

Use all internet loads with caution, YMMV!

Zombie Steve
08-16-2011, 08:52
Congrats on getting the first loads out of the way.

polizei1
08-16-2011, 15:20
Ok how about this:

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.2gr (#40 disk)
OAL = 1.130"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.130"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.140"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.160"

Being that Speer says max is 4.5gr's and Hodgon says max is 4.8gr, I don't really think I want to test the #46 disk (I measured 4.8gr actual). Would this be safe to test if I went with an OAL of 1.160"? Or should I just stay away all together?

:)

Colorado4Wheel
08-16-2011, 18:39
Try it in this order.

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.1gr (#40 disk)
OAL = 1.130"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.160"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.140"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.130"

Don't try the large disc before trying these.

polizei1
08-16-2011, 20:13
Ok will do. I'll report back with what I find...but I might try and pick up some N320 later on to try as well. I've heard it's a great 9mm powder, specifically for minor.

Colorado4Wheel
08-16-2011, 20:26
Burn Rate says it's not that different from your 231. It is fun to try different powders. I would spend a little more time cranking out some 231 rounds. Get the feel for that for a little while. Are you trying to make a USPSA style minor PF load?

polizei1
08-17-2011, 05:21
Yea that's my ultimate goal. I want a minor PF round that's accurate with mild recoil. Since I'm shooting a 3" 1911, recoil is pretty heavy from the faster rounds. I still have plenty of Win 231 left and plenty of components. I'm also planning to load .38/.357 as well, but I want to get plenty of 9mm experience first.

I have some lead too, but I'm not getting into that for a while either. But, I have to say, this is pretty fun experimenting with loads and finding what works and what doesn't. I had no idea how involved ammunition was until I started reloading.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127265

polizei1
08-19-2011, 14:04
Ok I finally got to the range today and tested these new loads.

Loads:

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.2gr (#40 disk)
OAL = 1.130"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.160"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.140"

PD 124gr
Win 231 4.5gr (#43 disk)
OAL = 1.130"

#40 had fairly light recoil, but was pretty inconsistant as far as accuracy.
#43 1.160" had a good snap to it, and seemed pretty accurate
#43 1.140" was the most accurate
#43 1.130" had quite a bit of recoil IMO, and was the least accurate

Rounds - 10 each
Accuracy - No rest, just standing 7 yards.
Failures - 1/10 of the #43 failed to go into battery, I have no idea why. The #40 did not do this, nor did the factory Remington I brought with me (I know it's not the gun, nor mags).

However, unlike last time, all of them locked the mags back and except for that 1 round in every bunch, worked awesome.

Since I have a match Sunday, I think I'm going to load 200 or so of the #43, 4.5gr 1.140" loads and see what happens...hopefully no failures! I'm going to bring some factory loads just in case.

Any other advice? I like experimenting but short of trying different powder, what else can I do? The limits of the Win 231 are from 4.0gr-4.8gr and I've loaded 3.8-4.5gr. I don't really want to push it any further. I also like the 124gr round.

Is anyone shooting 147gr for USPSA? Most often I see VV N320/Titegroup with MG/PD 124gr.

Beanie-Bean
08-19-2011, 16:30
Thank you for the load data. I'm finally finished building my bench, and my press goes on this weekend. I don't have any 9X19 dies (yet!) and will be loading .45 ACP/ .45 GAP this weekend as a trial run.

I have bookmarked this thread so that I can refer back to your load information to keep in my logs.

Good luck with the match!

Colorado4Wheel
08-19-2011, 16:51
Drop check every round in your barrel (take the barrel out). I would guess youe have a crimp issue and second to that a sizing issue.

fredj338
08-19-2011, 16:52
Burn Rate says it's not that different from your 231. It is fun to try different powders. I would spend a little more time cranking out some 231 rounds. Get the feel for that for a little while. Are you trying to make a USPSA style minor PF load?
Good advice here. ^^^^^^ There are dozens of powders yo ucan try later, maybe after you get an adjustable measure??? It's diff to fine tune when you are stuck w/ fixed charge wts. Most guys shooting for soft minor are using heavier bullets going slower. Just another thought.

polizei1
08-20-2011, 08:15
I didn't bother to check them in my barrel this time, so that makes sense. I WILL check the ones for the match.


So since I don't want to use the dreaded FCD, should I pick up a Dillon taper crimp for my FMJ and lead?

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24483/catid/4/Dillon_Crimp_Dies

I'm seeing a 650 in my future. :rofl: