Regarding Islam and depictions of Muhammad? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Ogreon
08-17-2011, 00:50
A number of years ago a biopic of Muhammad came out. They basically had the camera acting as Muhammad so that he was never seen on film.

Didn't that in a sense make the camera a depiction of Muhammad? By extension, since the camera represents the audience, didn't that make each member of the audience Muhammad?

This is one of the first things that popped into my head when the movie came out. Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to run this by any mullahs.


End of philosophical question.


Warning! Gratuitous Vanilla Ice reference ahead.



To the extreme I rock the mike like a vandal... Word to your mullah. Ice...Ice...Baby. Vanilla...

snowbird
08-21-2011, 06:26
What are you trying to say? Before you wrote that, did you by any chance inhale, snort, imbibe, inject, or ingest any hallucinogenic substance?

Ogreon
08-22-2011, 19:11
What are you trying to say? Before you wrote that, did you by any chance inhale, snort, imbibe, inject, or ingest any hallucinogenic substance?

I'm asking a serious philosophical question touching on Islamic law in the first part of the post. I'm asking because I'm seeking information. I don't tend to ask questions in order to say something. I find it easier to simply say it.

In the second part of the post I am making a pop culture reference based upon the similarities between "mullah" and "mutha". I thus replaced the original lyric "word to your mutha" (i.e. mother) with "word to your mullah".

I never use hallucinogens or intoxicants. Never have. Never felt the desire. I've always suspected that those who do feel the need are lacking in imagination. Maybe I'm just missing a neuroreceptor or something.

Sharkey
08-22-2011, 19:39
I'm with snowbird, if there was a question to be asked, I didn't see it.

Some of those extremists get a bit angry over how he is depicted.

Meanwhile, put the crucifix in a container of urine and you can call it art apparently and Christians are not looking to kill you.

Ogreon
08-22-2011, 20:05
I'm with snowbird, if there was a question to be asked, I didn't see it.


The movie, I believe, was Mohammad, Messenger of God. He never appears on screen. The camera, at times, shows us things from his point of view. Actors address the camera as him.

The question is ...

Didn't the filmmakers essentially make the camera a representation of Muhammad?

Since the audience is seeing and hearing through the eyes and ears of Muhammad, doesn't this make each audience member a further representation of Muhammad?

By trying to avoid showing Muhammad on the screen, didn't they make millions of depictions of Muhammad?

ArtificialGrape
08-22-2011, 20:37
The movie, I believe, was Mohammad, Messenger of God. He never appears on screen. The camera, at times, shows us things from his point of view. Actors address the camera as him.

The question is ...

Didn't the filmmakers essentially make the camera a representation of Muhammad?

Since the audience is seeing and hearing through the eyes and ears of Muhammad, doesn't this make each audience member a further representation of Muhammad?

By trying to avoid showing Muhammad on the screen, didn't they make millions of depictions of Muhammad?
I would think that showing something from my vantage point is not depicting me, but that's not to say that others did not see it differently, or find other aspects of the movie offensive.

Have you tried to search on responses of Muslims to the movie?

Sharkey
08-22-2011, 20:39
1. y
2. maybe
3. n

Just to be safe, the Taliban might want a fatwa on the directors.

Javelin
08-22-2011, 20:51
I have only found one picture of The Great Prophet Mohammad....

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/a-awe-gross-dude-24.jpg?w=500&h=334

Ogreon
08-22-2011, 23:16
I would think that showing something from my vantage point is not depicting me, but that's not to say that others did not see it differently, or find other aspects of the movie offensive.

Have you tried to search on responses of Muslims to the movie?

The only response that I saw was some initial unrest in the beginning due to a mistaken belief that Anthony Quinn would be playing Muhammad.

If the camera is your vantage point and actors look at the camera and call it ArtificialGrape, then it is being treated as you. The camera is also me. If I watch the movie then, in a sense, I become you.

It's an obscure philosophical issue. I'm curious to know if Islamic thought has ever gotten into it.

snowbird
08-23-2011, 08:44
It's an obscure philosophical issue. I'm curious to know if Islamic thought has ever gotten into it.

Ask Lars Vilks. Or Kurt Westergaard (sturdy door and lock which held until police arrival saved this grandfather cartoonist and his grandchild from an Islamic axe-murderer). Or Molly Norris. Or the cartoonists who depicted Mohammed in an episode of South Park. How about Theo van Gogh -he made a truthful movie about Muslims and got practically beheaded for his trouble (he had been warned, but said, "It's not something I worry about", while living in a land which bars good people from having guns for self-defense).

Molly Norris, was the Seattle cartoonist who drew the first picture for "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day", in order to stand up for freedom of speech and freedom of religion. American traitor and member of al-Quaeda, Anwar al-Awlaki, wrote, "The medicine prescribed by the messenger of Allah is the execution of those involved". Interestingly, Obama's FBI told her she should change her name and go into hiding (which she did). We seem to have come a long way from "Give me liberty or give me death!", the Spirit of '76, and the US military raising Old Glory on Iwo Jima.

nmk
08-23-2011, 10:34
The only response that I saw was some initial unrest in the beginning due to a mistaken belief that Anthony Quinn would be playing Muhammad.

If the camera is your vantage point and actors look at the camera and call it ArtificialGrape, then it is being treated as you. The camera is also me. If I watch the movie then, in a sense, I become you.

It's an obscure philosophical issue. I'm curious to know if Islamic thought has ever gotten into it.

You keep saying this, but I don't think most people would buy it.

Ogreon
08-23-2011, 22:50
You keep saying this, but I don't think most people would buy it.

It is symbolical. The idea that a photograph of you is you is equally symbolical, yet it is standard to look at a photo and say, "That's me."

snowbird
08-24-2011, 08:42
It is symbolical

Thomas Jefferson said that when the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.

Islam is tyrannical government as much as it is false religion. Why should Molly Norris have to live in hiding here in the Land of the Free? They want to impose their oppressive sharia law on us, which includes, "No pictures of Mohammed allowed", and "No Christianity". If we kow-tow to this symbol of sharia, the "No pix of Mohammed" rule, it is like letting the camel's nose into our tent -soon we'll be pushed out. Similarly, our left wants another form of tyrannical government, communism, which dictates, "Abolish the Second Amendment", and "No Christianity".

Fight tyranny, whether Islamic, leftist, or some treasonous combination thereof. No to any sharia, symbolical or otherwise. Support freedom as laid out in our Constitution. The Constitution may be secular, but it derived from Christians (Founding Fathers) and Christianity. And Christ gave us the right of self-defense: see Luke 22:36.

GreenDrake
08-25-2011, 05:36
Welp, looks like I'm on the hitlist.

http://onislamicfascism.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mohammed_bomb1.jpg

Ogreon
08-26-2011, 03:25
No to any sharia, symbolical or otherwise. Support freedom as laid out in our Constitution. The Constitution may be secular, but it derived from Christians (Founding Fathers) and Christianity. And Christ gave us the right of self-defense: see Luke 22:36.

I'm not supporting Sharia, symbolically or otherwise. It's a simple proposition. If a = b and b = c, then a = c. If the camera is Muhammad and the camera is the audience (it seems to me that the camera always represents the viewer), then the audience is (symbolically) Muhammad.

I'm curious if any Islamic scholars or philosophers have commented on the issue. Maybe they've never considered it. I figured that non-Islamic philosophers probably would not have dealt with the issue. If any have, I'd be interesting in reading that also.

snowbird
08-26-2011, 08:42
I'm glad to hear you don't intend to support sharia, but I'm still concerned about possible naivety along the lines of, "We can have peaceful philosophical discussions with these people".

Ever since Mohammed broke the Treaty of Hudaybiyya in 628, claiming as an excuse that Allah had given him a new revelation, there has been a principle in Islam that nothing is good except what is advantageous to Islam, and nothing evil except what hinders it.

Be careful my friend.

Ogreon
08-26-2011, 22:32
I'm glad to hear you don't intend to support sharia, but I'm still concerned about possible naivety along the lines of, "We can have peaceful philosophical discussions with these people".

Ever since Mohammed broke the Treaty of Hudaybiyya in 628, claiming as an excuse that Allah had given him a new revelation, there has been a principle in Islam that nothing is good except what is advantageous to Islam, and nothing evil except what hinders it.

Be careful my friend.

It's just curiosity about how people think about things. Since I'm engaged in neither the public depiction nor public slamming of Muhammad, I doubt that I'm on anyone's list. (OK. Maybe the anti-jokester jihad...)