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squirreld
08-17-2011, 21:08
So my dad has a 300 win mag browning BAR, book has the max at 74 gr coming out at 3148 fps for a 165 gr sierra HPBT bullet.
Chrono has it at 3125 fps.
All good.

I have a 338 win mag browning BAR, book has the max at 68.5 gr coming out at 3000 fps for a 185 barnes XXX bullet.
Chrono has it at 2700 fps.
Way off. 10% off.

Both rounds are loaded until the primers start to flatten.
Any suggestions?
I think it has something to do with the bullet profiles.
Seems the Barnes X bullet comes out slower than the equivalent lead based HPBT.

Edit to add,
Rifles are identical other than bore diameter.

albyihat
08-17-2011, 21:22
It is your gun. You may have a different bbl. length than the test bbl. or your bbl. may be to a different tolerance. If you want 3000fps try different powders and bullets. Out of my g-22 my reloads shoot 25fps slower on average than my friends g-22. Just the way it is.

Zombie Steve
08-17-2011, 22:35
What barrel length did the manual use for testing?

Zombie Steve
08-17-2011, 22:36
Both rounds are loaded until the primers start to flatten.


...and why would you do this instead of trying to find the most accurate load? Not like either cartridge doesn't have a bunch of ass to spare.

ColoCG
08-18-2011, 13:41
It is your gun. You may have a different bbl. length than the test bbl. or your bbl. may be to a different tolerance. If you want 3000fps try different powders and bullets. Out of my g-22 my reloads shoot 25fps slower on average than my friends g-22. Just the way it is.

^^^
What albyihat said. Most loads in loading manuals for .300 win mag and .338 win mag are measured in 24or 26" barrels, not sure what length you have.

They may also measure them in pressure test barrels not actual rifles.

Also you are shooting them in BAR's, you probably won't get the same velocity that a bolt action will.

Temp and altitude all affect actual velocity. Just work up loads with several powders until you find the most accurate load.

Then experiment with the best velocity you can acheive safely.

fredj338
08-18-2011, 16:41
There are many factors that go into a barrel giving this or that velocity. It's not uncommon to have a 200fps diff between diff rifles w/ identical bbls & loads. Chamber & bore tolerances, smoothness of the bbl, even the numbr of grooves will all have an affect on vel. Throw in variations in components; primers, bullets, case manuf & number of times fired, etc, velocity is gonna vary.
Same for handguns, just smaller variations. I have several 4" 357mags, they all give diff vel w/ identical loads, one as much as 150fps diff. So always take the book data as a ref point only. You will likely never achieve exact results.

squirreld
08-18-2011, 18:45
Thanks.
I'm gonna try a few diff bullets around the same weight to see if I get any speed increases/variations.
2700 is to slow.
I'd be happy at 3000.

Why do I flatten the primers?
Cause I am still cutting the same hole at 100 yards with each shot. :supergrin:

Wait till I get my 220 swift tuned in at 4000 FPS.
I am actually more comfy reloading rifle rounds that pistol rounds.
No chance for 2x charges and I reloaded about 99% rifle rounds growing up.

ColoCG
08-18-2011, 20:56
Thanks.
I'm gonna try a few diff bullets around the same weight to see if I get any speed increases/variations.
2700 is to slow.
I'd be happy at 3000.

Why do I flatten the primers?
Cause I am still cutting the same hole at 100 yards with each shot. :supergrin:

Wait till I get my 220 swift tuned in at 4000 FPS.
I am actually more comfy reloading rifle rounds that pistol rounds.
No chance for 2x charges and I reloaded about 99% rifle rounds growing up.


What powder are you using in the .338? It has been my experiance that Barnes bullets tend to give higher pressure than some other bullets. You should really be able to do better than 2700 fps with a 185gr bullet in the .338.:dunno:

fredj338
08-18-2011, 21:33
What powder are you using in the .338? It has been my experiance that Barnes bullets tend to give higher pressure than some other bullets. You should really be able to do better than 2700 fps with a 185gr bullet in the .338.:dunno:


I have to agree. I can get 2900fps in my 22 1/2"bbl 338-06 using the 185gr TSX. I would think 3000fps in the 338winmag easily done. You don't say what powder you are using, but try RL19 or H4350 or IMR4831. Your flattened primers usually mean higher pressures but Federal primers can show flattening early.

Zombie Steve
08-18-2011, 22:47
...or loose primer pockets.

ColoCG
08-19-2011, 09:06
You don't say what powder you are using, but try RL19 or H4350 or IMR4831.


I agree all great choices for.338 plus IMR4350 fits in the same category.

squirreld
08-20-2011, 10:06
Federal Magnum Match primers
IMR4350
67 grains
Virgin Brass.

I have IMR4351 and Re19 but since I'm essentially shooting the same hole at 100 yards with 4350, I have not tried these 2 yet.
I see no reason to.

I have some Nosler Accubonds, 180 gr. I'm going to try them. Bullet profiles are very different. Book has them coming out alot faster so perhaps thats the ticket.

ColoCG
08-20-2011, 22:00
If that's IMR 4350 I know that that is a good powder but I have never reloaded bullets as light as you are loading.

Just out of curiousity what are you trying to accomplish with these loads. Are they for hunting or just accurate long range acccuracy or what? The lightest bullet I have used was a Nosler 210gr. Partition, but I prefer 225gr. bullets.

Also what is your load with IMR 4350?

Nosler Accubonds are a great bullet. I have used the 180gr. in .300WIN Mag and 30-06 also 140gr. in .270Win.

ColoCG
08-20-2011, 22:24
Federal Magnum Match primers
IMR4350
67 grains
Virgin Brass.

I have IMR4351 and Re19 but since I'm essentially shooting the same hole at 100 yards with 4350, I have not tried these 2 yet.
I see no reason to.

I have some Nosler Accubonds, 180 gr. I'm going to try them. Bullet profiles are very different. Book has them coming out alot faster so perhaps thats the ticket.

I just checked your load, sounds pretty light. Hodgdons data Shows 67grs. of IMR4350 as a starting load for 185gr. Barnes TSX loaded to col. of 3.290" with a velocity of 2792 fps.

It lists a max of 74gr. in a compressed load for a velocity of 3072 fps.

So if you are loading 67grs. with the 185gr. it's no wonder all you are getting is 2700fps.:dunno:

Not sure where you are getting the 68.5grs as a max load.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

PCJim
08-21-2011, 07:36
Federal Magnum Match primers
IMR4350
67 grains
Virgin Brass.

I have IMR4351 and Re19 but since I'm essentially shooting the same hole at 100 yards with 4350, I have not tried these 2 yet.
I see no reason to.

Agreed. There's no need to look for increased velocity unless you're needing to shoot very long distances are are trying to minimize bullet drop. But, that may come at a heavy accuracy price.

When I'm shooting 3/8 or 1/2" groups at 100yds (scoped), I quit experimenting with the load.

ColoCG
08-21-2011, 09:50
Agreed. There's no need to look for increased velocity unless you're needing to shoot very long distances are are trying to minimize bullet drop. But, that may come at a heavy accuracy price.

When I'm shooting 3/8 or 1/2" groups at 100yds (scoped), I quit experimenting with the load.


I agree with you Jim, but the OP was wondering why he was only getting 2700 fps with his load when he thought he should get 3000 fps.

It looks like he was using the wrong data. He was using a starting load and was 7grs. below max

A good accurate safe load should be your main criteria, that is why I asked about what he was trying to accomplish with this load.:wavey:

fredj338
08-21-2011, 13:11
Federal Magnum Match primers
IMR4350
67 grains
Virgin Brass.

I have IMR4351 and Re19 but since I'm essentially shooting the same hole at 100 yards with 4350, I have not tried these 2 yet.
I see no reason to.

I have some Nosler Accubonds, 180 gr. I'm going to try them. Bullet profiles are very different. Book has them coming out alot faster so perhaps thats the ticket.
Well, you do NOT have a powder called 4351, so maybe 4831?? Your load is pretty light, so not surprised you are not getting the vel you want. You should be able to work upto 73-74gr, go in 1/2gr increments @ watch for pressures. While I agree, you don't need higher vel for paper, not much point in loading a premium Barnes at low vel for paper punching @ that vel. Might as well drop to a 338Federal & save powder & bbl wear.:dunno: Accuracy is the primary goal for reloaing rifle rounds, but I won't give up 300fps vel to get 1/4MOA better accuracy in a hunting round.

squirreld
08-21-2011, 18:05
Your right.
4831.

I am seeing the primers flatten at 67 gr.
I was going with Lee's modern reloading 2nd edition.
pg 516, 185 gr Barnes X bullet maxes out a 68.5 with a Large rifle primer.
I'm running a Magnum primer and 67 gr. Seems to fit with this books max load unless that's a different bullet?

I see what you are looking at on Hodgdon's site.

Now I'm confused. I see flattened primers at 67 gr. and the website says 74 gr.? Perhaps federal primers are a little softer start flowing a little to early as mentioned earlier?

I'm working up a colorado load.

fredj338
08-21-2011, 23:53
Federal primers do indeed flatten easily. There should be other signs of excessie pressure, like case head marking from the breech or extractor if they are really over pressure. FWIW, you do NOT need mag primers for 4350, it will run fine on std primers. Check to make sure the bullets are not touching the lands/rifling. Huge pressure issue w/ any bullet but particularly monometals. They like to get a running start beore engraving into the rifling, as much as 0.030" of lead.

ColoCG
08-22-2011, 14:08
Your right.
4831.

I am seeing the primers flatten at 67 gr.
I was going with Lee's modern reloading 2nd edition.
pg 516, 185 gr Barnes X bullet maxes out a 68.5 with a Large rifle primer.
I'm running a Magnum primer and 67 gr. Seems to fit with this books max load unless that's a different bullet?

I see what you are looking at on Hodgdon's site.

Now I'm confused. I see flattened primers at 67 gr. and the website says 74 gr.? Perhaps federal primers are a little softer start flowing a little to early as mentioned earlier?

I'm working up a colorado load.



For deer or elk or something else?

Zombie Steve
08-22-2011, 14:21
Bear? Jack? We gotsta know.

ColoCG
08-22-2011, 15:41
With a .338mag I'm betting it's either elk or Jack.

squirreld
08-22-2011, 18:18
Elk it is.
I wanted 1 gun to do all big game. I did not want 2 guns. I think the 338 is a good all around big game gun.
So I am loading light for Elk.
200 gr. for Canadian Moose.
225+gr. for Alaskan Grizzly's.

I have plans for this gun!

As far as touching the lands. Can't happen. This is an autoloader and the magazine dictates cartridge length. What I can barely stuff in the magazine shows no signs of touch the lands. From there, I dropped the OAL another .05 to get good mag clearance for functionality.

Ill run some NON federal primers and see what happens.
My dad swears by CCI magnum primers.
He kinda looked at me funny when I mentioned non mag primers for a magnum cartridge.
I guess I can try bench rest Large rifle primers to when I do some more testing.

fredj338
08-22-2011, 20:58
Elk it is.
I wanted 1 gun to do all big game. I did not want 2 guns. I think the 338 is a good all around big game gun.
So I am loading light for Elk.
200 gr. for Canadian Moose.
225+gr. for Alaskan Grizzly's.

I have plans for this gun!

As far as touching the lands. Can't happen. This is an autoloader and the magazine dictates cartridge length. What I can barely stuff in the magazine shows no signs of touch the lands. From there, I dropped the OAL another .05 to get good mag clearance for functionality.

Ill run some NON federal primers and see what happens.
My dad swears by CCI magnum primers.
He kinda looked at me funny when I mentioned non mag primers for a magnum cartridge.
I guess I can try bench rest Large rifle primers to when I do some more testing.

After I posted that I forgot you had said BAR. Just because a round says magnum does NOT mean you need a mag primer. I have found that most powders, upto 74gr or so, don't need a mag primer, es[ecially w/ light for caliber bullets. It is not uncommon to find accuracy improves w/ a std primer for medium/slow powders like 4350 or RL19. When I get to really slow powders like H4831 & slower, over 70gr, then I start looking to mag primers. I load for a 7mm Dakota using 7828 & a 338x74K using RL19, neither gets a mag primer. My 404jeffery w/ 84gr of IMR4831, it gets a mag primer.

ColoCG
08-22-2011, 21:22
Elk it is.
I wanted 1 gun to do all big game. I did not want 2 guns. I think the 338 is a good all around big game gun.
So I am loading light for Elk.
200 gr. for Canadian Moose.
225+gr. for Alaskan Grizzly's.

I have plans for this gun!

As far as touching the lands. Can't happen. This is an autoloader and the magazine dictates cartridge length. What I can barely stuff in the magazine shows no signs of touch the lands. From there, I dropped the OAL another .05 to get good mag clearance for functionality.

Ill run some NON federal primers and see what happens.
My dad swears by CCI magnum primers.
He kinda looked at me funny when I mentioned non mag primers for a magnum cartridge.
I guess I can try bench rest Large rifle primers to when I do some more testing.


I can tel you right now most Bull Elk are a lot tougher to bring down than most Candian Moose.

Plus depending on where in Colo. you are hunting the distances can be longer also. I would recomend at least a 210gr. bullet or preferably a 225gr. This will give you a better balistic coeficiant for flatter trajectory plus a better knockdown punch. I have seen Elk take a good hit from even a 225gr.at about 125yds. and show no sign of being hit. Sometimes it takes 2 or more.

Trust me, they can be very tough. That being said my wife and I have both taken them with .270's., so it just depends on your bullet and where you hit them. Just my opinion.

ETA: I do use CCI 250 mag primers with a healthy charge of IMR- 4831 or IMR 4350 in .338 Win. Mag., is it necessary maybe not but it works every time.

squirreld
08-22-2011, 21:41
The longer distances is why I want the speed.
Ill retry with a cci mag and cci non mag large rifle and see what I get to speed and accuracy wise.
for these light 180 grain bullets, those should be fast.

ColoCG
The 185 gr barnes bullet I am using is a 100% copper bullet. Much stronger than a lead based bullet.
I have called two outfitters just to leech some info from them. Both indicated a 300 win mag is more than enough. 30-06 is about perfect.
Over the past several years my dad has gone, many have commented that his 300 win mag is a lil much.
Thanks for the comments, I do appreciate them. If I was shooting a lead bullet, I would prob lean to a 200 gr.

ColoCG
08-22-2011, 22:17
Good Luck, I hope your using the Barnes TSX.:wavey:

I am not saying you don't have enough gun, If you don't hit them in the right placewith the right bullet, it doesn't matter what you are shooting.:wavey:

fredj338
08-23-2011, 09:01
I can tel you right now most Bull Elk are a lot tougher to bring down than most Candian Moose.

Plus depending on where in Colo. you are hunting the distances can be longer also. I would recomend at least a 210gr. bullet or preferably a 225gr. This will give you a better balistic coeficiant for flatter trajectory plus a better knockdown punch. I have seen Elk take a good hit from even a 225gr.at about 125yds. and show no sign of being hit. Sometimes it takes 2 or more.

Trust me, they can be very tough. That being said my wife and I have both taken them with .270's., so it just depends on your bullet and where you hit them. Just my opinion.
.

The joys of hunting locally. A 270 w/ a good bullet will work, but for the one time nonres hunter, IMO, you can't have too much gun when hunting elk, PROVIDED you can shoot it. A 185grTSX @ 3000fps or a 210grNP @ 2900fps, both shot about he same to 400yds.
The longest shot I have taken on an elk was 325yds, 338-06 w/ a 210grNP @ 2750fps. He was not impressed w/ the heart shot, just stood there. The second shot went a bit further forward & broke the of leg & he went down. He was dead on his feet, but showed no sign of being hit.:dunno:

ColoCG
08-23-2011, 11:52
The joys of hunting locally. A 270 w/ a good bullet will work, but for the one time nonres hunter, IMO, you can't have too much gun when hunting elk, PROVIDED you can shoot it. A 185grTSX @ 3000fps or a 210grNP @ 2900fps, both shot about he same to 400yds.
The longest shot I have taken on an elk was 325yds, 338-06 w/ a 210grNP @ 2750fps. He was not impressed w/ the heart shot, just stood there. The second shot went a bit further forward & broke the of leg & he went down. He was dead on his feet, but showed no sign of being hit.:dunno:

Fred, exactly what I was trying to get across to the OP I now use at least a .300 Win. Mag. with 180 NP or Nosler Accubond and don't feel the least bit overgunned. To me using a 185gr. bullet in a .338Win Mag. is defeating the purpose of using a .338 in the first place.

I once shot a 6x6 bull trotting broadside at 200yds. 3 times in the lungs with a 180gr. Barnes X bullet (old style) from a .300WM and he showed no sign of slowing down. Finally he stopped before droping off the rim of a cliff and I was able to put him down with one in the back of his neck. That was the last time I used Barnes x bullets, all three went thru his lungs and did not expand. It can be truly amazing how much lead(or copper) they can absorb.

Could his load work, sure. Will it?:dunno:Not my choice.

squirreld
08-23-2011, 20:35
ColoCG,
I do have the TSX.
Thanks for your recommendations. Essentially I am trying to match a heavy 300WM load and I should be able to do that easily. Since you admit that this is sufficient, I think this will be a very good load for CO.

Fred,
What kind of difference in drop were you seeing in the 185 gr. vs 210 gr. at 400 yards?

ColoCG
08-23-2011, 21:58
It's hard to compare a 185gr. .338 cal. bullet to a 180gr. .308 cal. bullet, there a little thing called Sectional Density which gives the edge to the .308 cal.

But anyway Good Luck.

squirreld
08-24-2011, 19:01
I see what your saying.
I would like to hear what Fred's #'s come in at 400 yards with the 2.
A 215 gr 338 would have the same sectional density as the 180 gr 300.

jfrey
08-24-2011, 20:48
The OP mentioned getting a 220 Swift. I know this thread is mainly about the .338 but I wanted to throw this out too. Getting 4000 fps out of a swift isn't a big deal with the right powder and bullet combination but you have to remember there is a little bullet and a LOT of hot gas behind it creating a lot of pressure coming out of a barrel with a very little hole in it. I have loaded a lot of rounds for the Swift but it is really easy to get in trouble fast if you don't pay very close attention to what you are doing. If you really want top performance out of a Swift, pay the price ($65.00/box or what ever they are going for now) and get Norma ammo.

ColoCG
08-25-2011, 10:32
I see what your saying.
I would like to hear what Fred's #'s come in at 400 yards with the 2.
A 215 gr 338 would have the same sectional density as the 180 gr 300.


I am not attempting to speak for Fred, but I will throw out some numbers based on that criteria.
Assuming a sighted in poi of 250yds for the .338 Win.Mag.

The 185gr.Barnes TSX with a mv of 3000fps arrives at 400yds. at -16.56" low vel=1995fps e=1635foot pounds.

The 210gr. Nosler Partition with a mv of 2900fps arrives at 400yds. at -16.90" low vel=2022fps e=1907 foot pounds.

If you went with the 210gr. Barnes TSX the numbers for the 210 would be slightly better because of a better BC .404 to .400

SD of the 185=.231 the 210=.263

If you change your sight-in distance then things change.
Not to many 215gr. .338 bullets out there, Sierra makes one.

Hope that helps, Charlie.

squirreld
08-25-2011, 20:13
Them 200 gr. 338's have some high BC's.
around .450

ColoCG
08-25-2011, 21:34
:brickwall:

fredj338
08-25-2011, 21:43
I am not attempting to speak for Fred, but I will throw out some numbers based on that criteria.
Assuming a sighted in poi of 250yds for the .338 Win.Mag.

The 185gr.Barnes TSX with a mv of 3000fps arrives at 400yds. at -16.56" low vel=1995fps me=1635foot pounds.

The 210gr. Nosler Partition with a mv of 2900fps arrives at 400yds. at -16.90" low vel=2022fps me=1907 foot pounds.

If you went with the 210gr. Barnes TSX the numbers for the 210 would be slightly better because of a better BC .404 to .400

SD of the 185=.231 the 210=.263

If you change your sight-in distance then things change.
Not to many 215gr. .338 bullets out there, Sierra makes one.

Hope that helps, Charlie.

You beat me to it but you are right. With 200yd zero, not much diff. Some say there is no point in using a light for caliber bullet like the TSX, but they do seem to perform above their weight class. They are long for their wt, giving them pretty good BC & SD. The newer designs expand more reliably IME. Anything beyond 400yds is going to degrade buller performance unless it can get there w/ 2000fps, mots bullets are just not going to expand much slower than that. The only place I would use a Ballistic Tip woul dbe if I knew I was going to be making shots further than 350yds, they will expand @ pretty low vel but come apart & high magnum impact vel.
If I could only have one bullet to hunt w/ in a 338 anything, it would be a 210grNP. I know what it can & can not do, always reliable, always accurate.

squirreld
08-25-2011, 22:12
LOL coloCG
I'll stick with the 210 gr bullet for this trip due to lack of time to experiment around.
Sounds like you guys know more than me on this.