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Bayou
08-21-2011, 18:23
Well finally got back in town for a week and was wanting to make my first loads. I wanted to run by everyone to make sure that I got this right or I am going in the right direction.

Berry's RN 115 gr--use low mid to low charges for plated
Hp38--Hogdon's sais to start at 4.7 for SPR GDHP and Lyman sais to start at 3.5 for JHP
OAL set at 1.103--close enough to 1.100--will be for a glock 17
Crimp is at .378, goes in correct in the case gage and barrell

So I guess make 10 at 4.7 and then 10 more at 4.9 or should I start at around 4 gr and work up? What am I not seeing or thinking of correctly when looking at both Lyman's and Hogdon's information? I used Lyman's 49th page 341 and Hogdon's online data. Also when I measured some blazer and winchester 115's they were coming in around 1.153 to 1.155, is 1.100 too short and also how close do I need to stay to the OAL as in 1.100?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message -->

meleors
08-21-2011, 18:57
What is the bullet profile? Hollow Point? Round Nose? Flat Point? This makes all the difference on what OAL you use.

ku4hx
08-21-2011, 19:06
I've had good success with Berry's Bullets. Just remember, if you're loading for a semi auto you need to have enough power to reliably and consistently work the action.

Bayou
08-21-2011, 19:16
They are 115 Rn, I changed it in the post

meleors
08-21-2011, 21:22
YMMV-
My personal load for 115gn RN in Glock 17:
HP38 = 4.8gn
OAL = 1.14

5.0gn would be max.

fredj338
08-21-2011, 23:37
WHat you are NOT reading in the data is a plated RN is NOT a JHP or a RNFMJ, so OAL & charge wts will be diff. OAL is ALWAYS gun & bullet specific. So match the profile of the bullet as closely as possible to the data THEN verify the OAL fits your bbl & mag. The top end for W231 & a plated bullet will be close to 4.8gr, so starting around 4gr & working up would be prudent. I would look for an OAL around 1.130", longer is always better as long as it fits your gun & mags. Plated bullets load using data between a lead & jacketed, so max data for jacketed would be an over pressure load for most plated.

Bayou
08-22-2011, 22:47
Well I loaded some rounds up tonight to try out tomarrow and I noticed a few things from my 1st reloading event. The OAL seemed to grow from 1.30 to 1.35-1.37 when the plate was full and also I can't believe the hiccups that I had. Tomarrow I will have to do a cleaning of the entire press, bench and floor. I had some powder mess from my fumblings and mishaps. Is there a way or an easier way to remove the extra primers from the tube when I'm finished?

I made 4 different loads to try:
3.8
4.0
4.2
4.4

pm666
08-22-2011, 22:52
What is the difference between a Round Nose FMJ (copper) and a "plated" bullet?

DoctaGlockta
08-23-2011, 06:33
What is the difference between a Round Nose FMJ (copper) and a "plated" bullet?

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17157315

meleors
08-23-2011, 06:39
Well I loaded some rounds up tonight to try out tomarrow and I noticed a few things from my 1st reloading event. The OAL seemed to grow from 1.30 to 1.35-1.37 when the plate was full and also I can't believe the hiccups that I had. Tomarrow I will have to do a cleaning of the entire press, bench and floor. I had some powder mess from my fumblings and mishaps. Is there a way or an easier way to remove the extra primers from the tube when I'm finished?

I made 4 different loads to try:
3.8
4.0
4.2
4.4

I sure hope you mean 1.130 to 1.135-1.137! :wow:

Colorado4Wheel
08-23-2011, 07:22
Well finally got back in town for a week and was wanting to make my first loads. I wanted to run by everyone to make sure that I got this right or I am going in the right direction.

Berry's RN 115 gr--use low mid to low charges for plated
Hp38--Hogdon's sais to start at 4.7 for SPR GDHP and Lyman sais to start at 3.5 for JHP
OAL set at 1.103--close enough to 1.100--will be for a glock 17
Crimp is at .378, goes in correct in the case gage and barrell

So I guess make 10 at 4.7 and then 10 more at 4.9 or should I start at around 4 gr and work up? What am I not seeing or thinking of correctly when looking at both Lyman's and Hogdon's information? I used Lyman's 49th page 341 and Hogdon's online data. Also when I measured some blazer and winchester 115's they were coming in around 1.153 to 1.155, is 1.100 too short and also how close do I need to stay to the OAL as in 1.100?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message -->


-Never use JHP OAL for RN OAL.
-Always remember that data list MIN OAL. Basically, you don't want to go shorter. If your gun allows it going longer is probably a great idea. Books will show MAX OAL in the picture of the cartridge.
-It's important to know the difference between Min and Max OAL and how that effects pressure and how you can vary OAL and charge in a cartridge based on the bullet you are using. Basically, you need to know that JHP might give you a idea of charge weight but can not be substituted for RN data with out some thinking about those issues.

fredj338
08-23-2011, 08:51
-Never use JHP OAL for RN OAL.
-Always remember that data list MIN OAL. Basically, you don't want to go shorter. If your gun allows it going longer is probably a great idea. Books will show MAX OAL in the picture of the cartridge.
-It's important to know the difference between Min and Max OAL and how that effects pressure and how you can vary OAL and charge in a cartridge based on the bullet you are using. Basically, you need to know that JHP might give you a idea of charge weight but can not be substituted for RN data with out some thinking about those issues.

Good advice, pay close attention to what the data is telling you. Older books did not show tested OAL, just SAAMI OAL. As we all know, OAL is bullet & bbl specific, always.

Bayou
08-23-2011, 09:33
Yah I meant 1.130 to 1.135-1.137

PCJim
08-23-2011, 11:57
Is there a way or an easier way to remove the extra primers from the tube when I'm finished?

I remember you're reloading on a newly acquired 550b. The simplist means is to just operate the press without any cases. When you stroke the handle forward as in seating a primer, lift the exposed primer off the punch. I use this method if there are only 10-20 primers remaining.

Otherwise, you've got to remove the two primer unit attachment screws, remove the entire primer unit and invert it to get the primers out. You may still have one or two retained in the magazine tube tip which can be gently and carefully pursuaded out with a small screwdriver, or remove the magazine tube itself (and hope the tip doesn't stay in the primer assembly - I've had that happen also!).

Lastly, you could just prime some more cases and set them aside until you've the components to finish them. Just remember to insert them into the shellplate after your downstroke so that you don't deprime them.

meleors
08-23-2011, 11:59
PCJIM beat me!

PCJim
08-23-2011, 12:04
IBTM



(in before the Meleors) :supergrin:

ron59
08-23-2011, 15:51
Yah I meant 1.130 to 1.135-1.137

Whenever I'm setting up any of the other dies? I always have a case in station 1.

I think that is what caused the difference you saw. Setup one way, ran it another.

Even for the last 3 cases after I run out of primers, I'll keep a case at station 1. I pull it out, rotate the shellplate, put the same one back in, and work the handle. I think that keeps everything nice and consistent, not really any extra work.

Bayou
08-23-2011, 17:21
Thanks Ron and Jim, I will keep a case in station 1 when setting up next time. I will also use the primer method next time.

Colorado4Wheel
08-23-2011, 17:28
Just get in the habit of loading 100 at a time. When the buzzer goes off my press had 5 left. It is easy to just load those five and be done.

Beanie-Bean
08-23-2011, 18:23
Thanks for the excellent info. I'll be designating some Station #1 cases when setting up the next set of dies. Perhaps I'll create a few more dummy rounds with a case at #1 to check the COL.

I'm still trying to get past the .45 ACP with small primer thing...

Bayou
08-26-2011, 20:49
Well I went today and shot the rounds that I loaded and I still have all my fingers. I found the biggest tree and hooked my arm around to fire the first one. Just kiddin it was pretty much uneventful but I have a few questions on what transpired. I made four loads up starting with 3.8,4.0,4.2 and 4.4.

3.8--90% of the time, it wouldn't eject the round. Basically a single shot 4.0--same thing but a little less, about 80%
4.2--it would fail to chamber every 3rd shot or less, round would jam when it tried to chamber. Also it was stovepiping like crazy
4.4--ran fine about 98%, 1 out of 10 I believe stovepiped or chamber issue, can't remeber.

So I'm pretty happy so far, learned a few things. Is the fail to chamber or stovepiping a charge weight issue or could it be my OAL 1.35-1.37. Might try 4.5 or 4.6 but I have to look in the book since I can't remeber whats the max with HP-38 with shooting plated. Also I noticed that the outside of fire4arm is a little more dirty then I rember shooting with factory rounds. Not terrible but did notice it haven't taken it apart to clean yet. Any clues to why the above mentioned issues arose?

Colorado4Wheel
08-26-2011, 21:12
115 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP

Thats Hodgon Lead RN data. So yeah, your still soft.

Are you chamber checking all the ammo to make sure it fits before firing? You should at the start to eliminate as many variables as possible when testing ammo for the first time.

Bayou
08-26-2011, 21:30
Yeah I chamber checked a portion of them and they passed both catridge case gage and barrell. I started off chamber/barrell checking the first 10 or so and then the last few. My crimp is at .378 if that makes a difference. My Lyman book lists 3.5 to 4.9 for a JHP and I thought I've read to use low to mid charge weights for plated. Thats why I started at 3.8 and worked up to 4.4.

Colorado4Wheel
08-27-2011, 07:49
Why you looking at the JHP data?

You have a Berry Plated and it's a RN. You use Lead Data. Hodgon has lead data use it. I don't know why I didn't notice this before.



4.2--it would fail to chamber every 3rd shot or less, round would jam when it tried to chamber. Also it was stovepiping like crazy
4.4--ran fine about 98%, 1 out of 10 I believe stovepiped or chamber issue, can't remeber.

So I'm pretty happy so far, learned a few things. Is the fail to chamber or stovepiping a charge weight issue or could it be my OAL 1.35-1.37. Might try 4.5 or 4.6 but I have to look in the book since I can't remeber whats the max with HP-38 with shooting plated. Also I noticed that the outside of fire4arm is a little more dirty then I rember shooting with factory rounds. Not terrible but did notice it haven't taken it apart to clean yet. Any clues to why the above mentioned issues arose?

The other thing is this. Follow my logic (lets prove the wife wrong and see if I have any).

You ran 4.2 grs at 1.135. Hodgons starting load is 4.2 at 1.100. So that load is below starting due to the LONG OAL.
You ran 4.4 grs at 1.135. It almost ran normal. It's probably pretty close to a real starting load once you take into account your LONG OAL compared to the data I would be trusting.

So basically, after all this work you found something close to a starting load and your having occasional issues with the pistol running right (despite chamber checking). To me it's time to start working it up some more. It's also burning dirty due to low pressure. Thats another indication.

I would keep the OAL and add more powder. If you barrel take a 1.130 OAL just use that in 9mm for all your RN stuff.

Bayou
08-27-2011, 08:40
I was looking at JHP data for the charge weight to use with a 115 gr bullet. I understand that the OAL would be different using a JHP versus a RN. I thought that I could use the charge weight for a 115 JHP but the OAL for a RN.

Colorado4Wheel
08-27-2011, 08:44
I was looking at JHP data for the charge weight to use with a 115 gr bullet. I understand that the OAL would be different using a JHP versus a RN. I thought that I could use the charge weight for a 115 JHP but the OAL for a RN.

JHP data is JACKETED Dated. You want to use LEAD data for PLATED bullets. Not jacketed data. Hodgon has the perfect data for you to use on their website. I copied and pasted it for you but double check everything to be safe.

Bayou
08-27-2011, 08:58
I see about using the lead data but I thought I read to use low to mid weight jacketed charges when using plated. Thats why I started out with 3.8, starting charge weight for jacketed. That does make sense about the LRN charge weights since 3.8,4.0 and 4.2 was giving fedding/action problems.

Colorado4Wheel
08-27-2011, 09:00
Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx


115 GR. SPR GDHP Winchester 231 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP

Thats SPR Gold Dot data from the site. Even they are starting at 4.7 gr. But it's a different PROFILE then the bullet you are using. The lead data is a exact match for you bullet and weight. But mixing and matching both they both support using more powder IMHO. Midrange Jacketed data is about 4.9 grs and Lead data goes all the way 4.9 grs. It says the Plated exist between Lead and Jacketed. Either way your way below that. Work it up .1 gr at a time from here and see what it does. Is the brass of your reloads ejecting normally or is it ejecting less forcefully then factory ammo?

PCJim
08-27-2011, 11:22
Bayou, make no more than 5 rounds each in 0.1gr increments until you get up to 4.8-4.9gr. I'd really suggest 2-3 rounds at each charge weight. You'll find what works well in the firearm. No need to create a bunch of rounds that won't properly cycle your firearm.

Bayou
08-27-2011, 14:44
Colorado4wheel, I see what your saying and I'm not trying to be argumentive since I need all the help I can get. But why does Lyman list 115 JHP W231 3.5 to 4.9 1.090 OAL page 341? Hogdon's site is alot higher for 115 Jacketed begining charges than Lyman.

Colorado4Wheel
08-27-2011, 16:41
Colorado4wheel, I see what your saying and I'm not trying to be argumentive since I need all the help I can get. But why does Lyman list 115 JHP W231 3.5 to 4.9 1.090 OAL page 341? Hogdon's site is alot higher for 115 Jacketed begining charges than Lyman.

Who knows why lyman is the way it is. But it's NOT the same bullet. I trust the manufacture over a book. Manufactures are more up to date. Also, notice how short that data is. 1.090" You need to look at way more then just the charge. JHP are not a good place to get your RN data from. But there max is also 4.9grs? AT A MUCH SHORTER OAL. Starting to notice a theme?

Your testing confirms the Hodgon data. Guns that are a single shot are not even a starting load in my experience. Loads that are near starting loads are sometimes reliable but often like your experiencing. Trust the Hodgon. Especially the Lead Data that is a near perfect match for what you are loading.

Bayou
08-27-2011, 18:39
Sure will, thanks for the direction and added knowledge.

meleors
08-27-2011, 19:17
OK, like I said way back in post #5:
Berry 115gn RN in Glock 17
HP38 = 4.8gn
OAL = 1.14

Let's look at this. Berry's are plated, should be loaded at low-mid jacketed data max. High lead data works.
Hodgdons load data for 115gn LRN: 4.3-4.8 @ 1.10

Now look @ my load data: 4.8gns is at max for lead but the longer OAL reduces the pressure. The difference in OAL is deceiving though because Berry's 115gn RN have a long narrow profile at the nose. The additional length also provides a safety margin against accidental shorter OAL.
4.6gns will cycle the gun but accuracy may suffer. 5.0gns pushes you into upper FMJ data. Hence, 4.8gns.

Bayou
08-27-2011, 21:04
Meleors, thanks for bringing that to my attention again. I will try that when I get back from business in a few weeks. Some things are starting to make sense but good Lord there is a ton to learn and try to understand but I find it enjoyable and challenging.

fredj338
08-28-2011, 12:54
OK, like I said way back in post #5:
Berry 115gn RN in Glock 17
HP38 = 4.8gn
OAL = 1.14

Let's look at this. Berry's are plated, should be loaded at low-mid jacketed data max. High lead data works.
Hodgdons load data for 115gn LRN: 4.3-4.8 @ 1.10

Now look @ my load data: 4.8gns is at max for lead but the longer OAL reduces the pressure. The difference in OAL is deceiving though because Berry's 115gn RN have a long narrow profile at the nose. The additional length also provides a safety margin against accidental shorter OAL.4.6gns will cycle the gun but accuracy may suffer. 5.0gns pushes you into upper FMJ data. Hence, 4.8gns.
You are making some poor assumptions. The longer RN profile means the bullet MUST be seated longer or prtrude into the powder space. Since plated do actaully load between lead & jacketed, the 4.8gr charge should be fine, but should be worked upto, not started with.:dunno: