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FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 07:36
Since, ( no big surprise) the Vic Hays' thread got locked before we could get to the truth from the Prophets concerning how our Messiah is foretold to die and then return. I figure why not start a New thread on it?
Can someone tell me from the actual Tanach where it states that Messiah will come to earth, die, and then come back and "finish" all he was originally supposed to do sometime during "round two" thousands of years later?

Dexters
08-23-2011, 08:02
You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 08:11
You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah


OK, but that doesn't really answer my question except to say xtians believe.....(fill in the blank)

How about something specific that can hold up to scrutiny besides the "battle of the links"

What I do find interesting ( and you should to) is when the site says:

The literal translation of the word, messiah (moshiach), is “anointed,” which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it.[1 Sam. 10:1-2] It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king,[1 Kings 1:39] Jewish priests,[Lev. 4:3] and prophets,[Isa. 61:1] the Jewish Temple and its utensils,[Ex. 40:9-11] unleavened bread,[Num. 6:15] and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia).[Isa. 45:1]

Vic Hays
08-23-2011, 08:50
OK, but that doesn't really answer my question except to say xtians believe.....(fill in the blank)

How about something specific that can hold up to scrutiny besides the "battle of the links"

What I do find interesting ( and you should to) is when the site says:

The literal translation of the word, messiah (moshiach), is “anointed,” which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it.[1 Sam. 10:1-2] It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king,[1 Kings 1:39] Jewish priests,[Lev. 4:3] and prophets,[Isa. 61:1] the Jewish Temple and its utensils,[Ex. 40:9-11] unleavened bread,[Num. 6:15] and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia).[Isa. 45:1]

FF

My understanding is that Messiah, Christ, and the Anointed one are pretty much the same meaning.

We see the holy oil as symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus began His ministry He was Anointed with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17 When he had been baptised, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying. "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Jesus would have been of age, about 30 years old according to the priestly type. This was in 27 AD at the 69th week of the 70 weeks prophecy. He was killed after 3 and I/2 years of ministry which would be the middle of the week. In 34 AD His followers were persecuted so much that they went everywhere spreading the Gospel. This would have fulfilled the 70th week.

Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.................................................................................

He was sacrificed in the middle of the 70th week

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 08:58
FF

My understanding is that Messiah, Christ, and the Anointed one are pretty much the same meaning.

We see the holy oil as symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus began His ministry He was Anointed with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17 When he had been baptised, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying. "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Jesus would have been of age, about 30 years old according to the priestly type. This was in 27 AD at the 69th week of the 70 weeks prophecy. He was killed after 3 and I/2 years of ministry which would be the middle of the week. In 34 AD His followers were persecuted so much that they went everywhere spreading the Gospel. This would have fulfilled the 70th week.

Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.................................................................................

He was sacrificed in the middle of the 70th week


Problem is, your reference to Daniel 9:27 has already been addressed in very great detail. see my link in my signature.

"annointed" with the "holy spirit" also is an alien concept in the tanach.
Also, from the wiki site that our mutual friend was so nice to post:

To the Jew, the Messiah has a most important mission, namely to bring the world back to G-d, and make it a place of peace, justice and harmony. When Jesus failed to accomplish this, the early Christians had to radically alter the very concept of the Messiah. This, in turn, transformed Christianity from another Jewish Messianic sect into a religion that is quite alien to many basic Jewish teachings.[16]

So let's get back to the question

achysklic
08-23-2011, 09:06
I see some people will never change, our buddy FF whom I will refer to from here on as C B will always continue to side step questions.

Vic Hays
08-23-2011, 09:16
Problem is, your reference to Daniel 9:27 has already been addressed in very great detail. see my link in my signature.

"annointed" with the "holy spirit" also is an alien concept in the tanach.
Also, from the wiki site that our mutual friend was so nice to post:

To the Jew, the Messiah has a most important mission, namely to bring the world back to G-d, and make it a place of peace, justice and harmony. When Jesus failed to accomplish this, the early Christians had to radically alter the very concept of the Messiah. This, in turn, transformed Christianity from another Jewish Messianic sect into a religion that is quite alien to many basic Jewish teachings.[16]

So let's get back to the question

Do you ever make mistakes?

I noticed that the Spirit of God came upon Saul for example, not that he was anointed though. Foreign or not do not dismiss it as a possiblity.

God bless you.:angel:

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 09:17
I see some people will never change, our buddy FF whom I will refer to from here on as C B will always continue to side step questions.

Actually, his question was answered. It is MY question that I want answered. I atarted this thread asking for proof from the Nach and he cites NT :upeyes:

BTW what question did he ask?

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 09:18
Do you ever make mistakes?

I noticed that the Spirit of God came upon Saul for example, not that he was anointed though. Foreign or not do not dismiss it as a possiblity.

God bless you.:angel:


David referred to Saul more than once as "The Annointed one of Hashem". Yes in fact he was anointed, perhaps you wanna read as to how this was done. It is the way a king is properly anointed.

Vic Hays
08-23-2011, 21:29
David referred to Saul more than once as "The Annointed one of Hashem". Yes in fact he was anointed, perhaps you wanna read as to how this was done. It is the way a king is properly anointed.

Yes, I know the story of Samuel anointing Saul king and later the son of Jesse. The Son of God, however , was anointed with the real thing, the Holy Spirit.

Yes Jesus is coming back. The whole thing including the resurrection is in Daniel 12:1-2

Ogreon
08-23-2011, 22:31
OK, but that doesn't really answer my question except to say xtians believe.....(fill in the blank)


I thought that I had read somewhere that the United Council of Really Cool Rabbis had declared Wikipedia to be scripture...

For anyone interested in a book that somewhat touches upon this topic...
The Christian and the Pharisee by Dr. R.T. Kendall and Rabbi David Rosen was interesting.

Kendall is a Calvinist, so his side of the letters don't represent what many other denominations would say (Catholics, Orthodox, etc.). I don't know enough to give a doctrinal label to Rosen.

FifthFreedom
08-24-2011, 07:03
Yes, I know the story of Samuel anointing Saul king and later the son of Jesse. The Son of God, however , was anointed with the real thing, the Holy Spirit.

Yes Jesus is coming back. The whole thing including the resurrection is in Daniel 12:1-2



Your problem is, there is no such concept of "anointing with the "holy spirit" in the Great Prophets so unless I would choose to think somehow the Nach was fiction, I have to therefore reject it. Even Moses wasn't anointed with any holy spirit and what exactly is that supposed to mean anyway.

Daniel 12:1,2 say nothing about the Messiah nor of him "dying and returning" that's smoke and mirrors you're trying to use. ( see my other response in the other thread.)

Vic Hays
08-24-2011, 10:52
Your problem is, there is no such concept of "anointing with the "holy spirit" in the Great Prophets so unless I would choose to think somehow the Nach was fiction, I have to therefore reject it. Even Moses wasn't anointed with any holy spirit and what exactly is that supposed to mean anyway.

Daniel 12:1,2 say nothing about the Messiah nor of him "dying and returning" that's smoke and mirrors you're trying to use. ( see my other response in the other thread.)

1. The Holy Spirit is the one who dwells with us personally as much as we will allow. The Great Prophets do mention Him, but no person was annointed with the Holy Spirit like Jesus. Jesus is unique.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

He dwells with me even though I have nothing and have done nothing to deserve Him.

2. Daniel 12:1-2 is speaking about Michael, which is Jesus warrior name returning and the resurrection of the dead.

God bless you

Paul7
08-24-2011, 21:27
Your problem is, there is no such concept of "anointing with the "holy spirit" in the Great Prophets so unless I would choose to think somehow the Nach was fiction, I have to therefore reject it. Even Moses wasn't anointed with any holy spirit and what exactly is that supposed to mean anyway.



'Oh, that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!' (Num. 11:29). What Moses prayed for became a prophecy in the words of the prophet Joel, who said that in the latter days that's exactly what would happen. And on the day of Pentecost it did happen. The apostle Peter said that it was about this that Joel was writing.

FifthFreedom
08-25-2011, 08:54
'Oh, that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!' (Num. 11:29). What Moses prayed for became a prophecy in the words of the prophet Joel, who said that in the latter days that's exactly what would happen. And on the day of Pentecost it did happen. The apostle Peter said that it was about this that Joel was writing.

What exactly do you think this has to do with anointing??
Some of G-d's spirit of prophecy rested on the 70 elders. Where does it claim "anointed?" this is classic trying to read more into the scripture than what it says.

This is another example of how if Paul claimed this happened on Pentecost, he clearly didn't understand the Bible. Do you see now why I don;t take the NT seriously>??

Joel 3:1 is clear,,G-d will pour out his spirit on ALL FLESH From the sons and daughters to slaves....ALL Flesh. Not a small handful of "apostles". This clearly did NOT happen at "pentecost"

plus if we followed your way of thinking and these people were in fact "anointed with the holy spirit" as you claim jsus was, then what makes him any more special than any of them?

FifthFreedom
08-25-2011, 08:56
2. Daniel 12:1-2 is speaking about Michael, which is Jesus warrior name returning and the resurrection of the dead.

God bless you



OH man this is rich :rofl:
Now Michael is jsus' "warrior name????"
oy vey!
Are you actually keeping a straight face when you make these claims?

OK, so where does it say Michael died and was resurrected?

achysklic
08-25-2011, 09:22
OH man this is rich :rofl:
Now Michael is jsus' "warrior name????"
oy vey!
Are you actually keeping a straight face when you make these claims?

OK, so where does it say Michael died and was resurrected?


Yeah Adventist think Michael and Jesus were one and the same....even though scripture clearly proves this is not so..

Just another crazy thing Ellen White their goddess made up.


If you study Rev.2:20 you might say this could be Ellen White

Rev.2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


Funny thing is Most ADVENTIST are trinitarians which means Jesus is God,

Now Michael's name means who is like God . See how confused they are, they don't have a clue if Jesus is God or if He is like God...........lol

GreenDrake
08-25-2011, 09:36
When the Flying Spaghetti Monster appears, you will know.

FifthFreedom
08-25-2011, 10:36
Yeah Adventist think Michael and Jesus were one and the same....even though scripture clearly proves this is not so..

Just another crazy thing Ellen White their goddess made up.


If you study Rev.2:20 you might say this could be Ellen White

Rev.2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


Funny thing is Most ADVENTIST are trinitarians which means Jesus is God,

Now Michael's name means who is like God . See how confused they are, they don't have a clue if Jesus is God or if He is like God...........lol


Wow, yeah I gotta admit I never heard this one before. I am not too familiar with cults and their beliefs.

Vic Hays
08-25-2011, 11:19
'Oh, that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!' (Num. 11:29). What Moses prayed for became a prophecy in the words of the prophet Joel, who said that in the latter days that's exactly what would happen. And on the day of Pentecost it did happen. The apostle Peter said that it was about this that Joel was writing.

Water and oil are both symbolic of the Holy Spirit

For I will pour water on him who is thirsty, And floods on the dry ground; I will pour My Spirit on your descendants, And my blessing on your offspring; They will spring up among the grass. Like willows by the watercourses. One will say, "I am the Lord's; Another will call himself by the name of Jacob; Another will write with his hand, The Lord's, And name himself by the name of Israel.

Blessings on you Paul 7. It is no wonder that Jesus said you must be born again. Born of the watere and of the Spirit. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Vic Hays
08-25-2011, 11:20
Wow, yeah I gotta admit I never heard this one before. I am not too familiar with cults and their beliefs.


Who do you suppose this Michael is? And you sidestepped the mention of the ressurections.

achysklic
08-25-2011, 11:51
WHO is Michael? The bible says he is a arch angel, I don't believe he was ever refered to as God, or Messiah.

Adventists share this Jesus /michael are the same withe the JW'S.

Does this surprise anyone?

What ever happened to in the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth? It should read in the beginning Michael the Arch angel created the earth!

Heb.1:4 "having become so much better than the angels." How by nature? NO, by exaltation at the resurrection- returning to his former position. How can he be better than angels if he is an angel? He already was better in nature before his incarnation as the very one who created all the angels. (Col.1:14-17, Jn.1:3).

Heb.1:5 "For to which of the angels did he ever say "you are my Son today I have begotten you" The answer is none of them! Here the writer is proclaiming the Son as superior to angels. Angels who are the greatest of Gods creation and the Son is better vs.4 How? Because he as the Son is of the same nature as his Father.

Heb.1:6 The Father tells all the angels to worship the son

How silly it is to believe a angel is God, or even the son of God!

You might as well worship a cow if you are going to worship angels!


Also Note satan is called the god of this world, he was a angel...so when the adventists worship and call GOD a angel they are infact worshiping the god of this world.

achysklic
08-25-2011, 18:05
Wow, yeah I gotta admit I never heard this one before. I am not too familiar with cults and their beliefs.

If you want to brush up on just how wrong Ellen White was, Here is a great page to review. It addresses what she stated against scripture and actually really exposes the SDA for the cult they are.

http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Contradicts.htm

Just an example of some of the heresy she spitted out, here is a quote from her.

"As God has shown me in holy vision ... we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming" (Early Writings, pp. 15, 34, 285

Vic Hays
08-27-2011, 09:49
Wow, yeah I gotta admit I never heard this one before. I am not too familiar with cults and their beliefs.

Cult is a rather poor word to use for sect. All different groups of beliefs are sects.

If you want to find out more about my faith just read the Bible. If you want to find out more about one of the major patriarches, Ellen White, of my sect then I would suggest a very useable and informative website that contains all of her writings plus answers to many of the misconceptions that some people have had about her and her work.

http://www.whiteestate.org/

God bless you and keep you :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-28-2011, 09:46
Who do you suppose this Michael is? And you sidestepped the mention of the ressurections.

I didn;t side-step. I asked you where Michael died and was resurrected.

I notice YOU sidestepped:

This is another example of how if Paul claimed this happened on Pentecost, he clearly didn't understand the Bible. Do you see now why I don;t take the NT seriously>??

Joel 3:1 is clear,,G-d will pour out his spirit on ALL FLESH From the sons and daughters to slaves....ALL Flesh. Not a small handful of "apostles". This clearly did NOT happen at "pentecost"

plus if we followed your way of thinking and these people were in fact "anointed with the holy spirit" as you claim jsus was, then what makes him any more special than any of them?

YOu want questions answered, then you need to start answering them yourself.

Vic Hays
08-28-2011, 14:23
I didn;t side-step. I asked you where Michael died and was resurrected.

I notice YOU sidestepped:

This is another example of how if Paul claimed this happened on Pentecost, he clearly didn't understand the Bible. Do you see now why I don;t take the NT seriously>??

Joel 3:1 is clear,,G-d will pour out his spirit on ALL FLESH From the sons and daughters to slaves....ALL Flesh. Not a small handful of "apostles". This clearly did NOT happen at "pentecost"

plus if we followed your way of thinking and these people were in fact "anointed with the holy spirit" as you claim jsus was, then what makes him any more special than any of them?

YOu want questions answered, then you need to start answering them yourself.

Yes, and you denied that the Holy Spirit was even mentioned as annointing anyone in the major prophets. The Holy Spirit is a big player with our personal relationship with God. Pouring out is anointing.

Quote from Fifth Freedom,
"Your problem is, there is no such concept of "anointing with the "holy spirit" in the Great Prophets so unless I would choose to think somehow the Nach was fiction, I have to therefore reject it. Even Moses wasn't anointed with any holy spirit and what exactly is that supposed to mean anyway." Quote

Jesus is special, He is the unique one, monogenes in Greek.

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 06:47
Yes, and you denied that the Holy Spirit was even mentioned as annointing anyone in the major prophets. The Holy Spirit is a big player with our personal relationship with God. Pouring out is anointing.

Quote from Fifth Freedom,
"Your problem is, there is no such concept of "anointing with the "holy spirit" in the Great Prophets so unless I would choose to think somehow the Nach was fiction, I have to therefore reject it. Even Moses wasn't anointed with any holy spirit and what exactly is that supposed to mean anyway." Quote

Jesus is special, He is the unique one, monogenes in Greek.


And I stand by that G-d never "anointed with the holy spirit"
You seem to think that the Holy Spirit (Better translated the Divine Presence)
i.e The Shechina,
Is a person or something. G-d allowing the Divine presence to rest upon someone and someone being "anointed" as King Messiah are two entirely different things.

Still waiting for your response to how you think this was fulfilled on "pentecost" when scripture states plainly the Shechinah will rest on ALL FLESH

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 08:29
And I stand by that G-d never "anointed with the holy spirit"
You seem to think that the Holy Spirit (Better translated the Divine Presence)
i.e The Shechina,
Is a person or something. G-d allowing the Divine presence to rest upon someone and someone being "anointed" as King Messiah are two entirely different things.

Still waiting for your response to how you think this was fulfilled on "pentecost" when scripture states plainly the Shechinah will rest on ALL FLESH

Well, that certainly is one opinion.

God bless you and keep you.:angel:

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 08:39
Well, that certainly is one opinion.

God bless you and keep you.:angel:



Once again,,This is scripture unless now you are saying G-d through his Prophets was "giving His opinion"

All Flesh means ALL flesh. Stop dancing.

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 09:03
Once again,,This is scripture unless now you are saying G-d through his Prophets was "giving His opinion"

All Flesh means ALL flesh. Stop dancing.

Very well, I agree, all flesh means all flesh.

What does that do to your chosen people status?


May God bless you more than you deserve :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 09:07
Very well, I agree, all flesh means all flesh.

What does that do to your chosen people status?


May God bless you more than you deserve :angel:

Spare me the "G-d bless yous" I know you don't mean it.

Where did this "chosen status" things come from? Another attempt to deflect from the topic. You claimed the prophecy mentioned was fulfilled on Pentecost. If so I would say Peter was wrong. Because It did NOT in fact fulfill anything if the Shechina just happened upon a handful of people.

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 09:16
Spare me the "G-d bless yous" I know you don't mean it.

Where did this "chosen status" things come from? Another attempt to deflect from the topic. You claimed the prophecy mentioned was fulfilled on Pentecost. If so I would say Peter was wrong. Because It did NOT in fact fulfill anything if the Shechina just happened upon a handful of people.

There are partial and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. Hashem is much more gracious than you think.



I sincerely do wish you a blessing and I am praying for you. :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-30-2011, 08:03
There are partial and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. Hashem is much more gracious than you think.






No such concept. A prophecy comes to pass or it does not. What does the Torah say about someone fortelling a sign or a wonder and it in fact not coming to pass?

Vic Hays
08-30-2011, 19:56
No such concept. A prophecy comes to pass or it does not. What does the Torah say about someone fortelling a sign or a wonder and it in fact not coming to pass?

There are actually 3 fulfillments of some prophecies.

1. Literal local

2. Spiritual worldwide

3. Literal worldwide in glory

You use at least two and do not acknowledge them as multiple.

example: Gog and Magog the traditional enemies of God's people.


God bless you