Creeping doubt [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Cujo17
08-23-2011, 11:30
I have reloaded and shot thousands of rounds made on my Lee Progressive press. I have about 600 rounds on hand and I remember having a couple of primer issues while making them. Recently, it has creeped into my head, for no particular reason, a "what if" I missed a double charge(Titegroup). I usually load enough for my immediate needs and have sat on these for over a year with just a one half of one percent doubt. Now I am thinking about taking them apart. Am I paranoid?

rewster
08-23-2011, 11:39
If you are never going to use them because of the doubt, they're not much good to you ! The only thing that will relieve the doubt is to take them down and start over. If you do, be sure and let us know what the results were.



I have reloaded and shot thousands of rounds made on my Lee Progressive press. I have about 600 rounds on hand and I remember having a couple of primer issues while making them. Recently, it has creeped into my head, for no particular reason, a "what if" I missed a double charge(Titegroup). I usually load enough for my immediate needs and have sat on these for over a year with just a one half of one percent doubt. Now I am thinking about taking them apart. Am I paranoid?

Steve Koski
08-23-2011, 11:46
When you have doubt, set those rounds aside IMMEDIATELY. During the reloading process is best.

If you have unfounded doubt, you need to increase your medication level.

HotRoderX
08-23-2011, 11:56
I am not a re-loader yet but common since here says when in doubt double check. The risk of blowing one of my hands off (depending on caliber) or losing a gun is not worth the time it takes (regardless of how long) to strip them bullets and double check. Think about it this way if one is over charged and it Kabooms the gun is it worth losing your life, Hand, Eyes, Hearing etc.


No such thing as Paranoid when it comes to something that can kill ya or cause great bodily harm.

Cujo17
08-23-2011, 12:15
When you have doubt, set those rounds aside IMMEDIATELY. During the reloading process is best.

If you have unfounded doubt, you need to increase your medication level.

Yep, now I'm wondering how long my kinetic bullet puller will last.

Scotch is my medication of choice.

Zombie Steve
08-23-2011, 12:21
Yep, now I'm wondering how long my kinetic bullet puller will last.

Scotch is my medication of choice.

Save those old, worn-out collets and make a nice necklace for your wife.

Colorado4Wheel
08-23-2011, 12:44
This is why I hate presses that screw up on me. I know I am going to get "creeping doubt" later. I hate that. A press that runs 100% does not do that to me. I have a batch about 6 months old that I have the doubt about. They just sit there and taunt me.

Cujo17
08-23-2011, 12:58
Save those old, worn-out collets and make a nice necklace for your wife.

A little bling once in a while never hurts the old marriage.:supergrin:

DoctaGlockta
08-23-2011, 13:01
Just another reason to use powders that you can easily detect a double charge.

GioaJack
08-23-2011, 13:04
Open a You Tube account, set your camera on a tripod and shoot 'em.

Bunch'a flatland wussies.


Jack

Bogey
08-23-2011, 13:12
Open a You Tube account, set your camera on a tripod and shoot 'em.

Bunch'a flatland wussies.


Jack


I tend to agree.

Dang....now I have to go to the therapist.

Cujo17
08-23-2011, 13:32
Open a You Tube account, set your camera on a tripod and shoot 'em.

Bunch'a flatland wussies.


Jack

Conifer, CO. Elevation 8278 feet.

Lack of oxygen makes you brave.:supergrin:

Zombie Steve
08-23-2011, 13:56
I tend to agree.

Dang....now I have to go to the therapist.

That was tough for me to see you go through. I think I'm having secondary trauma.

SGT HATRED
08-23-2011, 14:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56MInIpXhwM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Colorado4Wheel
08-23-2011, 14:11
Squib followed by another bullet is also very bad. I don't shoot slow like those that are gasping for air.

Tpro
08-23-2011, 15:04
This is why I hate presses that screw up on me. I know I am going to get "creeping doubt" later. I hate that. A press that runs 100% does not do that to me. I have a batch about 6 months old that I have the doubt about. They just sit there and taunt me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I agree with this 100%.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you have ANY doubts or reservations that the equipment you use (or yourself the operator) will have an issue pop up for no good reason, or if your equipment is prone to screwing you...then I would say it's time to change equipment.

I'm not one to blame my tools (and a reloading press is nothing more than a tool) but if you can't get consistent, repaetable, reliable results without you second guessing the tool, it may be time to either repair said tool or replace it.

Life is way too short to deal with junk that can cause you to doubt or hurt or kill you, or worse yet, injure or kill some one else.

El_Ron1
08-23-2011, 15:17
If you have unfounded doubt, you need to increase your medication level.
Listen up now, this is the voice of experience talkin'. Speakin' of medicated, where's bp?

PCJim
08-23-2011, 15:36
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I agree with this 100%.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you have ANY doubts or reservations that the equipment you use (or yourself the operator) will have an issue pop up for no good reason, or if your equipment is prone to screwing you...then I would say it's time to change equipment.

I'm not one to blame my tools (and a reloading press is nothing more than a tool) but if you can't get consistent, repaetable, reliable results without you second guessing the tool, it may be time to either repair said tool or replace it.

Life is way too short to deal with junk that can cause you to doubt or hurt or kill you, or worse yet, injure or kill some one else.

Well said.

bush pilot
08-23-2011, 15:41
Listen up now, this is the voice of experience talkin'. Speakin' of medicated, where's bp?

Did I tell you we get chocolate pudding if we all take ours meds today? Gotta go, they're handing out sleeping mats and the cartoon festival is starting.

Dexters
08-23-2011, 15:46
I have reloaded and shot thousands of rounds made on my Lee Progressive press. I have about 600 rounds on hand and I remember having a couple of primer issues while making them. Recently, it has creeped into my head, for no particular reason, a "what if" I missed a double charge(Titegroup). I usually load enough for my immediate needs and have sat on these for over a year with just a one half of one percent doubt. Now I am thinking about taking them apart. Am I paranoid?

Have you thought about just weighing them instead of taking them apart? If a round(s) are out of spec you could take them apart for analysis. It would be a good time to buy a digital scale if you don't have one.

Dexters
08-23-2011, 15:53
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I agree with this 100%.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you have ANY doubts or reservations that the equipment you use (or yourself the operator) will have an issue pop up for no good reason, or if your equipment is prone to screwing you...then I would say it's time to change equipment.

I'm not one to blame my tools (and a reloading press is nothing more than a tool) but if you can't get consistent, repaetable, reliable results without you second guessing the tool, it may be time to either repair said tool or replace it.

Life is way too short to deal with junk that can cause you to doubt or hurt or kill you, or worse yet, injure or kill some one else.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I disagree wit this 100% ^^^^^^^^^^ except for "but if you can't get consistent, repaetable, reliable results without you second guessing the tool, it may be time to either repair said tool or replace it."

There is no such thing as a 100% press. With a reloading press the operator is part of the press and the reloading process. And as humans are fallible mistakes are possible.

Cujo17 should look towards himself, review his quality control procedures, how he operates the press and the press maintenance.

PCJim
08-23-2011, 15:57
Have you thought about just weighing them instead of taking them apart? It would be a good time to buy a digital scale if you don't have one.

Unless one has sorted both the cases and bullets by weight beforehand, and segregated the loaded rounds by those weights, there is no way you can determine with any level of confidence whether you have double charged any rounds with a powder light (fast) enough to actually double charge a case without overflowing it.

Dexters
08-23-2011, 16:00
Unless one has sorted both the cases and bullets by weight beforehand, and segregated the loaded rounds by those weights, there is no way you can determine with any level of confidence whether you have double charged any rounds with a powder light (fast) enough to actually double charge a case without overflowing it.

So, he sorts them. It is better than taking them all apart. If he has different cases he can weigh them, the charge, bullet and primer to establish a base weight. He could take apart the rounds that weight varies from the base weight if the variance is significant.

ron59
08-23-2011, 16:03
This is why I hate presses that screw up on me. I know I am going to get "creeping doubt" later. I hate that. A press that runs 100% does not do that to me. I have a batch about 6 months old that I have the doubt about. They just sit there and taunt me.

I made a batch about this time last year. Some Speer Gold Dots loaded up with TiteGroup. Right in the middle of it is when my UniqueTek micrometer power measure I had installed screwed up on me. Didn't catch it right away, next thing I know... it had been 5-6 cases since I checked the powder and it was nearing the top of the case. DOH!

All 200 of them are sitting there needing to be pulled.

atakawow
08-23-2011, 16:33
Double charge is usually 95% user and 5% equipment. Most of the time, it is 100% user.

How can it be the equipment's fault when it is the user who charges the case twice?

Colorado4Wheel
08-23-2011, 16:55
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I disagree wit this 100% ^^^^^^^^^^ except for "but if you can't get consistent, repaetable, reliable results without you second guessing the tool, it may be time to either repair said tool or replace it."

There is no such thing as a 100% press. With a reloading press the operator is part of the press and the reloading process. And as humans are fallible mistakes are possible.

Cujo17 should look towards himself, review his quality control procedures, how he operates the press and the press maintenance.

Of course it's the operator. But, the reality for me is that the more the press screws up the more chances that the operator has to make a mistake. Operators can and do make mistakes clearing problems. The fewer times it messes up the fewer chances you have to have the "mistake fixing process" kick you in the ass.

Colorado4Wheel
08-23-2011, 16:58
Double charge is usually 95% user and 5% equipment. Most of the time, it is 100% user.

How can it be the equipment's fault when it is the user who charges the case twice?

Double charge is 100% user unless the equipment is broken. And then it's not like the equipment is going to magically fix itself with out the user doing it. So people who claim that the press made a Double Charge must have some magical press that fixed itself as well. Squibs are another issue.

Cujo17
08-23-2011, 17:28
Of course it's the operator. But, the reality for me is that the more the press screws up the more chances that the operator has to make a mistake. Operators can and do make mistakes clearing problems. The fewer times it messes up the fewer chances you have to have the "mistake fixing process" kick you in the ass.

C4W, you are correct in that the more the press screws up, the greater the chance of an operator mistake. I do double check rounds as I get the press back online but I have become more and more careful as I get older. I guess as time has passed, I can't remember if I was as diligent, tired, distracted etc. and have concluded that I would rather be safe than sorry. I will eventually take these apart and start anew.

As for weighing the finished rounds, tried it and it's worthless-too much variation even when separating by headstamp.

fredj338
08-23-2011, 17:37
So, he sorts them. It is better than taking them all apart. If he has different cases he can weigh them, the charge, bullet and primer to establish a base weight. He could take apart the rounds that weight varies from the base weight if the variance is significant.
Depending on caliber, just doesn't work that way. Even cases w/ the same headstamp can vary as much as 2gr, bullets 2gr, trying to find a 4gr powder charge in there is almost impossible. Don't ask me how I know.:dunno:

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2011, 18:06
Don't worry about it. Just send them to me, I'll take good care of them. They will be in a good home, and you will feel much better.

Steve Koski
08-23-2011, 18:07
If you recorded the weight of each bullet and case (and average primer weight) beforehand, you could quickly add them up with a spreadsheet program.

Subtracting the actual cartridge weight from the calculated weight will yeild the powder charge weight.

It's pretty straight forward actually. Most people catalog these values anyway. Why not add them up and subtract?

Koski

atakawow
08-23-2011, 18:15
Double charge is sometimes 95% user and 5% equipment. Most of the time, it is 100% user.

How can it be the equipment's fault when it is the user who charges the case twice?

Fixed.

Just realized my sentences contradict one another.

Dexters
08-23-2011, 18:28
...

Maybe you should take a break from reloading for awhile and then come back at it fresh.

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2011, 18:32
I have access to a large ranch, where the cartridges will be able to run free with plenty of fresh air and sunshine. It's in an area that has plenty of water, and full stock tanks. They can chase Deer and Feral Hogs and live a full and fruitful life.

Really, I'm only thinking about them. I'll even pay the postage.

Cujo17
08-23-2011, 19:31
Maybe you should take a break from reloading for awhile and then come back at it fresh.

That is pretty much what I did, hence the creeping doubt about old rounds.

Cujo17
08-23-2011, 19:35
I have access to a large ranch, where the cartridges will be able to run free with plenty of fresh air and sunshine. It's in an area that has plenty of water, and full stock tanks. They can chase Deer and Feral Hogs and live a full and fruitful life.

Really, I'm only thinking about them. I'll even pay the postage.

I appreciate the generous offer, but I kinda promised them I would buy a ranch someday and let them roam free. They would be heartbroken if I broke that promise.

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2011, 19:42
I appreciate the generous offer, but I kinda promised them I would buy a ranch someday and let them roam free. They would be heartbroken if I broke that promise.

Just happy to know that they will have a good home......:crying:

StaTiK
08-23-2011, 20:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56MInIpXhwM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Whoa, look at 1:32 in the video... whoever fired that shot probably lost a finger and maybe more.

As for whether or not to shoot the 600 rounds, I know I wouldn't shoot them. Not only is the "reward" not worth the risk but I'd probably develop quite a flinch after 600 of those. Plus, can you imagine how much you'd be kicking yourself if one (or more) is a double charge? Better to pull them and confirm that your equipment is still good and that you still are the reloading guru that you've been claiming you are to all of your friends, IMO.

-StaTiK-

StaTiK
08-23-2011, 20:23
If you recorded the weight of each bullet and case (and average primer weight) beforehand, you could quickly add them up with a spreadsheet program.

Subtracting the actual cartridge weight from the calculated weight will yeild the powder charge weight.

It's pretty straight forward actually. Most people catalog these values anyway. Why not add them up and subtract?

Koski

I don't think I understand. Are you saying to weigh them (assembled) to see if there is a double charge? We're talking about a couple grains of powder, depending on caliber. It seems to me that a heavy projectile and/or heavy brass could conceal a squib OR a light projectile and/or light brass could conceal a double charge... or any combination thereof. Normal loads look bad, bad loads look good; I don't see how this would help.

Even 9mm: a 124gr projectile would only need be off by 4% in either direction to conceal a 5gr charge (just for illustrative purposes). That doesn't include brass or primer.

-StaTiK-

norton
08-23-2011, 20:44
If you recorded the weight of each bullet and case (and average primer weight) beforehand, you could quickly add them up with a spreadsheet program.

Subtracting the actual cartridge weight from the calculated weight will yeild the powder charge weight.

It's pretty straight forward actually. Most people catalog these values anyway. Why not add them up and subtract?

Koski

If there are going to be math problems on GTR, well, I may have to take up another hobby.

dbarry
08-23-2011, 20:55
Chocolate puddin! Yeah

PCJim
08-23-2011, 20:59
If you recorded the weight of each bullet and case (and average primer weight) beforehand, you could quickly add them up with a spreadsheet program.

Subtracting the actual cartridge weight from the calculated weight will yeild the powder charge weight.

It's pretty straight forward actually. Most people catalog these values anyway. Why not add them up and subtract?

Koski

Steve, if a 124gr bullet consistently weighted an exact 124 grains, and every manufacturer's case weighed exactly the same, your comment would be correct. Problem is, they don't. Bullets and cases vary a lot, which is why precision shooters and snipers weigh every component beforehand. Those subtle differences that don't matter one hoot for an IDPA shooter can have a drastic impact at distance.

I personally don't weigh every bullet and case before loading them up. I trust the cases to be of a reasonable volume (which has correlation to weight) and the bullets to be reasonably close to the stated weight. If you consider that one may be loading RPU, you'll have a mismatch of manufacturer's cases in the lot, all with different case weights.

You simply won't be able to find a squib or double charge with any degree of confidence.

Steve Koski
08-23-2011, 21:18
Sta-Tik, PCJ, Norton,

I'm pulling your leg.

Koski

Zombie Steve
08-23-2011, 21:47
Damn. I just finished muh spreadsheet.

Steve Koski
08-24-2011, 04:37
Sweet. I recently pre-weighed my next 17,000 bullets, and printed little tiny serial numbers on them, with a cross reference to my spreadsheet. Up next - 17,000 cases.

Zombie Steve
08-24-2011, 08:16
Primers gotta be tricky business.

Why can't we have the gubbmint do this for us?

Cujo17
08-24-2011, 08:51
Primers gotta be tricky business.

Why can't we have the gubbmint do this for us?

I started stamping the weights on my SP primers last night, I got through three of them, ouch.:rofl:

PCJim
08-24-2011, 16:20
OK, I bit. Kinda hard sometimes on the 'net to realize the sarcasm. :cool:

Cavalry Doc
08-24-2011, 17:13
Primers gotta be tricky business.

Why can't we have the gubbmint do this for us?

http://microstamp.us/images/alpha_numeric_set_2.jpg

norton
08-24-2011, 17:49
Sta-Tik, PCJ, Norton,

I'm pulling your leg.

Koski

Whew! Never did cotton to story problems.

Tpro
08-24-2011, 22:26
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I disagree wit this 100% ^^^^^^^^^^ except for "but if you can't get consistent, repaetable, reliable results without you second guessing the tool, it may be time to either repair said tool or replace it."

There is no such thing as a 100% press. With a reloading press the operator is part of the press and the reloading process. And as humans are fallible mistakes are possible.

Cujo17 should look towards himself, review his quality control procedures, how he operates the press and the press maintenance.

IDK how I can be more clear so I'll try it again.

It is 100% OPERATOR ERROR. PERIOD. But, as C4W pointed out, if the press is constantly dicking you (and most will concur that it has happened to them at some time with one brand of press or another) then you INCREASE the POTENTIAL to get SCREWED.

The operator is 100% responsible. But when a tool is jerking your chain and you can't fix it, GET A NEW TOOL. It's stupid to continue to have issues and potential injury or death when you can get a new tool. Hopefully all are clear on where I stand.

Zombie Steve
08-24-2011, 23:50
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x214/sbecht/krazy.gif

Colorado4Wheel
08-25-2011, 07:22
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x214/sbecht/krazy.gif


I agree.