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Diesel McBadass
08-23-2011, 11:58
It can be said religion is something people are indocrinated into as children when young and impressionable and can be taught to believe anything. I have a very catholic family. Tried to send me to catholic school, had m in church, etc. I easily pointed out how illogical many teachings were and how the bible has been havily edited in history as even a little kid. Today I have learned to accept that i do not know the true nature of the universe, i a god exists, if their is life after death, and am willing to accept that i will not know these things, i do not wish to force myself to believe an answer based on that faith thing. I knwo many people who were raised religious and believe everything they were taught, or raised athiest and same deal. Anyone had something pushed on you and didn't fall for it?

Norske
08-23-2011, 12:51
It can be said religion is something people are indocrinated into as children when young and impressionable and can be taught to believe anything. I have a very catholic family. Tried to send me to catholic school, had m in church, etc. I easily pointed out how illogical many teachings were and how the bible has been havily edited in history as even a little kid. Today I have learned to accept that i do not know the true nature of the universe, i a god exists, if their is life after death, and am willing to accept that i will not know these things, i do not wish to force myself to believe an answer based on that faith thing. I knwo many people who were raised religious and believe everything they were taught, or raised athiest and same deal. Anyone had something pushed on you and didn't fall for it?

Yes.

I believe that ALL organized religions primarily exist to supply an easy living for the clergy within them.

That all organized religions are little more than thousands of years long, self-sustaining, con games.

That religions themselves invent their Gods, rather than the reverse as they would have you believe, as a completely circular, unprovable justification for their own existence. :upeyes:

All Clergy are little more than con artists. :steamed:

And yes, they cram it down the throats of the innocent young because it was crammed down their throats, or worse they know what they are cramming is a crock of guano but cram it anyway for their own personal benefit.

Mankind could do a lot worse by putting the concept of "God" where it belongs, with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and GROW UP.

There would be a lot less blood and treasure wasted on religion if we did.

Remember. 9/11/01 happened over differing opinions about religions.

AA#5
08-23-2011, 13:03
Not exactly "pushed" on me, but whenever I was exposed to it as a child, I always thought, "What a bunch of BS." And it still is.

Diesel McBadass
08-23-2011, 13:17
It was pushed on me, i hate how religious people try to use hit them while there yound tactics and try to force a belief down your throat but they can do it with a clear concience since they believe they are saving you which is downright scary.

Nine Shooter
08-23-2011, 13:24
I always viewed the Bible as a non-literal set of guidelines to live ones life by, if they so needed such guidance. Some people are lucky enough to have a strong enough internal sense of right and wrong that they do not need it. This is usually due to a good upbringing. I don't know what will happen when I die, but I don't let that stop me from trying to live the best life I can and do good to others. If I'm "rewarded" with something, so be it, living a good life will be my greatest reward and that is all I want.

ArtificialGrape
08-23-2011, 21:51
I wouldn't say "resisted", but I would say that I overcame religion.

I was raised Christian, but fairly skeptical by my mid-teens. I then ignored the issue for the next decade+, then when I began looking into around age 30 I quickly came to the conclusion that the claims were without merit and that religions were manmade.

Syclone538
08-23-2011, 22:31
...
I was raised Christian, but fairly skeptical by my mid-teens.
...

+1



I was thinking about this a while ago, and started this thread.
How old were you when your beliefs changed?
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1349297

juggy4711
08-23-2011, 22:38
Most religions, like most man made institutions, are corrupt. However it is possible to be a believer and not be religious, to be spiritual rather than dogmatic. Religion can be good for some people yet I would be wary of any religion that seeks to actively convert others.

Kingarthurhk
08-24-2011, 04:09
I had a time in my life where I essentially left religion. I lost interest in church, lost interest in spiritual things. My wife of the same religious background noticed it in me. The best thing she did for me was pray about it. God was still working, and eventually I came around. So, I was raised in a religion, got frustrated, essentially turned my back on it for a few years, and then found I was okay with it again.

God transforms the heart. My wife couldn't on her own. I couldn't, and for awhile didn't even want to. "Religion" doesn't save you, what it does do is put you in with a body of believers who strenghten each other. Jesus is the only way to salvation, pure and simple.

eracer
08-24-2011, 04:38
I was a pretty smart kid, and saw right through the catholic ritual

'Stand, sit, kneel, stand, sit, kneel, chant, pray, gesticulate, stand, sit, kneel.' You're kidding, right?

Yet, the churches (Unity) that reduce the ritual and focus on the nature of happiness seem even less able to connect to the mystery. Hug your neighbor, beat your kids...it all seems so pointless.

God is within, not without.

GreenDrake
08-24-2011, 04:59
I was raised Catholic, sent to Catholic school, was an altar boy, etc. I finally figured out how to think for myself and not follow a guilt based religion that threatens me with lakes of fire and eternal damnation. I am a thankful and appreciative person who respects mother nature, am raising a healthy happy family and am a good person, I believe. I don't need organized groups of guilt shysters to make me feel as though I am doing the right thing. So yes, I have given organized religion the proverbial Heisman. I love to fly fish, the river is my church.

SDGlock23
08-24-2011, 08:12
I would think it a good thing to resist religion. Religion isn't what it's all about, it's all about relationship. Do you know Jesus?? Does Jesus know you??

Ramjet38
09-02-2011, 18:32
I would think it a good thing to resist religion. Religion isn't what it's all about, it's all about relationship. Do you know Jesus?? Does Jesus know you??

very good, and very true. Just about anything man has laid his hands on he has totally screwed it up...religion being one of them, and science being the other.

kjm1016
09-02-2011, 18:48
To the OP:
I was an enthusiastic participant in the Catholic church as a boy. I was an altar boy. I participated and I felt part of a greater whole. By my late teens I had lost much of this. I had seemingly endless arguments about my 'disagreements' over Church doctrine. I recall sitting in the back of the Church during Mass, feeling bored and left out. In retrospect, that was the real key. No longer a participant, I got bored and drifted away to other things. (I discovered the opposite sex and enlisted in the Army.) In due course I made a personal peace with the Church, but have never felt the need to go back. Some might say I traded spiritual beliefs for sex and a fascination with weapons. Maybe, but it works for me.

Lastly, if the OP would proof read your posts before we see them, you would come off better. Your opinions have some validity, but your lack of proper spelling, punctiation, etc. is getting in the way.

Sharkey
09-02-2011, 22:02
I would think it a good thing to resist religion. Religion isn't what it's all about, it's all about relationship. Do you know Jesus?? Does Jesus know you??

Si'.

Raised Catholic till sixth grade when my dad said enuff, we are going to my church. It was there I learned about having a relationship with Jesus. In my mid 20's a bad accident made me extremely bitter and I swore off Jesus for six months and I was miserable. He didn't swear off me though. I do go and try to be a fisher of men without being obnoxious but it seems like a lot here like religion better.

If I have a "religion", I'd say mine is cycle riding. :supergrin:

muscogee
09-03-2011, 10:31
I'm a recovering Christian. The addiction is heard to break. I really wanted to believe and fell back into my old patterns a few times until I realized that way of life caused nothing but misery for me and those I loved.

steveksux
09-03-2011, 13:29
Some might say I traded spiritual beliefs for sex and a fascination with weapons. You say that as if that's a bad thing... :supergrin:

Randy

nmk
09-04-2011, 10:52
Mankind could do a lot worse by putting the concept of "God" where it belongs, with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and GROW UP.

There would be a lot less blood and treasure wasted on religion if we did.

Remember. 9/11/01 happened over differing opinions about religions.

The other side of that coin is scary as well. I have no religion and most people think I'm a good, "moral" person (as far as anyone can really know what others think of them). There are MANY, MANY people who claim that there are no morals without religion. If those people didn't have religion, yikes.

ETA: There's no way to know how many, but I'd bet there are lots of people who would do bad things without the fear of divine punishment.

steveksux
09-04-2011, 12:13
The other side of that coin is scary as well. I have no religion and most people think I'm a good, "moral" person (as far as anyone can really know what others think of them). There are MANY, MANY people who claim that there are no morals without religion. If those people didn't have religion, yikes..that's always been a bit of a mystery to me as well. Why is it that such so called "moral" people can't figure out for themselves that killing someone, raping their sister is wrong, without it being pointed out to them.

Randy

NMPOPS
09-04-2011, 19:46
I was born and raised a Lutheran. Drifted away and tried other churches, including Morman and now find myself to be an agnostic. Religions are based on a belief system that cannot be proven. At least we have hard evidence that dinosaurs existed! There is more proof that aliens have visited us than there is that any religion is anything more than mass histeria.

TKM
09-04-2011, 19:54
Any outfit that lies to little kids as a recruiting tactic can kiss me where it smells.

I don't need them to be a good person.

They don't need me to stand around asking embarrassing questions.

Gonna do that anyway.:tongueout:

Kentak
09-08-2011, 19:30
Really interesting accounts here, and good ones.

As with many, I accepted what I was taught as a small child. At some point, one hopes, one reaches a level of intellectual maturity and gains enough independent knowledge to examine critically that which one once accepted uncritically from parents and teachers.

Why this religion and not that one? Why this sacred scripture and not that one? Why this prophet and not that one? Faith? That's it, really?

No religion needed to explain natural phenomena. No religion needed to explain creation. No holy book needed to mandate ethics and morals--that comes from within and the formation of an integrated world view and what is needed to live a rational life in human societies.

It seems to me the biggest motivation to reject a rational, non-theistic belief system is simple fear of death. As sentient beings we are aware of our own existence and our own physical mortality. We like the fact we exist and don't like to think about the fact someday we won't exist. So, there is a huge desire to believe that there is some part of us, our "personhood", "soul," or "essence" that will continue after death. That desire is so strong, it allows us to put aside normal skepticism and rationality and embrace a faith that holds out a promise of everlasting life. And all the silly rules, ritual, and dogma that goes with it. "You want to cut some skin off my WHAT???"

Be mature. Grow up. Accept reality. Life is (can be) great. But, someday you'll die. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just the way it is. You don't need religion to be a good person. You don't need to please big daddy in the sky. Live a life your loved-ones, friends, and associates would admire and remember fondly. Remember the Golden Rule (not exclusively owned by any religion or philosophy) and you won't do too badly. Do the best you can and then, when the time comes, say, "Good night, it's been a trip."

Kentak
09-08-2011, 19:45
But, Norske, how do you *really* feel? :wavey:

muscogee
09-08-2011, 22:13
It seems to me the biggest motivation to reject a rational, non-theistic belief system is simple fear of death.

That's a large part of it, but people use religion to justify all kinds of abhorrent behavior as well. They physically, verbally, and emotionally abuse their spouses and children because God wants them to. They steal and justify it by giving 10% to the church. For many dysfunctional people religion is like alcohol or any other drug that gives people an emotional boost. Instead of getting drunk and being somebody, they got church and become somebody. A lot of insignificant insecure people like to look down their noses at other people and tell them how to live their lives. Some of the most screwed up people I have ever know were addicted to telling everyone else what God wanted them to do. It was the only thing that made them feel important.

GreenDrake
09-09-2011, 05:00
Man made religion to control mankind, prett simple really. It's the first form of politics.

Paul7
09-09-2011, 15:20
Really interesting accounts here, and good ones.

As with many, I accepted what I was taught as a small child. At some point, one hopes, one reaches a level of intellectual maturity and gains enough independent knowledge to examine critically that which one once accepted uncritically from parents and teachers.

And many were not raised in religious homes, yet are now devout Christians, my wife and both parents included.

Why this religion and not that one? Why this sacred scripture and not that one? Why this prophet and not that one? Faith? That's it, really?

No religion needed to explain natural phenomena. No religion needed to explain creation. No holy book needed to mandate ethics and morals--that comes from within and the formation of an integrated world view and what is needed to live a rational life in human societies.

It seems to me the biggest motivation to reject a rational, non-theistic belief system is simple fear of death. As sentient beings we are aware of our own existence and our own physical mortality. We like the fact we exist and don't like to think about the fact someday we won't exist. So, there is a huge desire to believe that there is some part of us, our "personhood", "soul," or "essence" that will continue after death. That desire is so strong, it allows us to put aside normal skepticism and rationality and embrace a faith that holds out a promise of everlasting life. And all the silly rules, ritual, and dogma that goes with it. "You want to cut some skin off my WHAT???"

Be mature. Grow up. Accept reality.

The question is, 'What is reality?' IMHO reality is that God is there and is not silent, but has spoken to us through His word, and He became man in the person of Jesus Christ, and that belief in his atoning death on the cross will gain you an eternal life of unimaginal joy.

Paul7
09-09-2011, 15:22
I was raised Catholic, sent to Catholic school, was an altar boy, etc. I finally figured out how to think for myself and not follow a guilt based religion that threatens me with lakes of fire and eternal damnation. I am a thankful and appreciative person who respects mother nature, am raising a healthy happy family and am a good person, I believe. I don't need organized groups of guilt shysters to make me feel as though I am doing the right thing. So yes, I have given organized religion the proverbial Heisman. I love to fly fish, the river is my church.

As has been said before here, nature can reveal God exists, but it won't reveal His specific plan of salvation through Jesus Christ.

.....your fellow fly-fisherman. Just got back from a killer fishing trip here http://mountmassivelakes.org/

Diesel McBadass
09-10-2011, 14:40
I do not believe god exists. I do not believe he does not exists. I believe that i do not know the answer and proabaly never will. I do not know there is an afterlife. I do not know that there isn't one either. I will not fall into the belief of something against logic (faith) and will accept that there is no way to know all lifes answers.

NMG26
09-10-2011, 15:30
I do not believe god exists. I do not believe he does not exists. I believe that i do not know the answer and proabaly never will. I do not know there is an afterlife. I do not know that there isn't one either. I will not fall into the belief of something against logic (faith) and will accept that there is no way to know all lifes answers.

Do you believe that man is spiritual.

If man is spiritual, then it would be natural to desire to know a little something about spirituality. Healthy even.

Do you think that Ziggy is resisting religion in this vid?
Ziggy Marley (http://www.youtube.com/artist/Ziggy_Marley?feature=watch_video_title) Video: Love is My Religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8oAGvFxevw

Paul7
09-10-2011, 15:32
I do not believe god exists. I do not believe he does not exists. I believe that i do not know the answer and proabaly never will. I do not know there is an afterlife. I do not know that there isn't one either. I will not fall into the belief of something against logic (faith) and will accept that there is no way to know all lifes answers.

What if there is an afterlife and you're not prepared? Because it's not on your radar screen doesn't mean it isn't real, many people similarly never give a thought about fitness or saving for retirement.

muscogee
09-10-2011, 16:06
What if there is an afterlife and you're not prepared? Because it's not on your radar screen doesn't mean it isn't real, many people similarly never give a thought about fitness or saving for retirement.

So are you going to be buried with a coin in your mouth so you can cross the Styx? You better be prepared, just in case.

ArtificialGrape
09-10-2011, 16:49
So are you going to be buried with a coin in your mouth so you can cross the Styx? You better be prepared, just in case.
Good point -- Paul's point was nothing more than Pascal's Wager Lite.

Diesel McBadass
09-10-2011, 17:02
All I know is I do good and resist evil, I don't need some book or other people's fairy tales to guide me and my own concience and morals will guide my decisions.

steveksux
09-10-2011, 17:24
That's a large part of it, but people use religion to justify all kinds of abhorrent behavior as well. They physically, verbally, and emotionally abuse their spouses and children because God wants them to. They steal and justify it by giving 10% to the church. For many dysfunctional people religion is like alcohol or any other drug that gives people an emotional boost. Instead of getting drunk and being somebody, they got church and become somebody. A lot of insignificant insecure people like to look down their noses at other people and tell them how to live their lives. Some of the most screwed up people I have ever know were addicted to telling everyone else what God wanted them to do. It was the only thing that made them feel important.
But you shouldn't hold what dysfunctional people do while abusing religion against religion.

And I say that as someone who does not believe in religions, considers them all superstitions no different from witch doctors and voodoo practitioners, merely Santa Clause for adults.

Randy

NMG26
09-10-2011, 17:45
All I know is I do good and resist evil, I don't need some book or other people's fairy tales to guide me and my own concience and morals will guide my decisions.

Ah, so you do believe that mankind is spiritual.

Resisting evil is a spiritual thing.

Goodness is listed as a "fruit of the spirit" in Galatians in the Bible.

fgutie35
09-10-2011, 17:53
I'm sorry for all of you who were raised or indoctrinated on X church. I understand how you feel and why you left the church. Unlike most of you, I went the opposite way. My father was a skeptic and very logical man. He never saw the need for us to go to church if he could teach us morals and ethics himself (kind of like I heard many of you mentioned here). As a result, I grew up with no affiliation to any church. Althought many aunts and relatives tried to get me to join different denominations, including catholic, I always saw the bad side of each by observing their behavior, so I grew up with only negative impressions about any church. With my luck, I ended up marrying a catholic, and resisted for many years to that church. She eventually gave up and decided to leave me alone. Two years ago I can now say with certainty, that I got called by God and I was given the grace of the Holy Spirit to guide me from then on on my journey. Before you say anything or try to find the logic, let me stop you there and remind you that my dad was very logical and so I'm very logical too. What happened after that, I cannot explain I can only say that I have been driven by a unknown force to do, read and say things I could have never imagine in my whole life I would ever say or do or read. No man or women influenced me on my conversion. No one from this earth that is. Since then, I have been instructed to become a catholic and continue on my spiritual journey.

Paul7
09-10-2011, 18:09
Good point -- Paul's point was nothing more than Pascal's Wager Lite.

Yes, I've never seen a good refutation of Pascal's Wager.

NMG26
09-10-2011, 18:16
Two years ago I can now say with certainty, that I got called by God and I was given the grace of the Holy Spirit to guide me from then on on my journey. Before you say anything or try to find the logic, let me stop you there and remind you that my dad was very logical and so I'm very logical too. What happened after that, I cannot explain I can only say that I have been driven by a unknown force to do, read and say things I could have never imagine in my whole life I would ever say or do or read. No man or women influenced me on my conversion. No one from this earth that is. Since then, I have been instructed to become a catholic and continue on my spiritual journey.

Cool story.

I have had some of the same type of experiences.

So do you believe that God had to have Jesus killed as a sacrifice for your life?

muscogee
09-10-2011, 18:57
Yes, I've never seen a good refutation of Pascal's Wager.

So are you going to be buried with a coin in your mouth? If not, they why not. Provide your own refutation.

fgutie35
09-11-2011, 00:23
Cool story.

I have had some of the same type of experiences.

So do you believe that God had to have Jesus killed as a sacrifice for your life?
I believe there were many reasons why Jesus had to die the way he died. It amazes me how God interconects his plans within plans like a fabric interweaved in a tridimensional way. Just in the passion of Jesus alone, everything had a significance even the exact number of blood drops that he shed thru the whole event. There is a lot going on, that we humans can not even dream to comprehend when it comes to the spiritual realm. Just by reading many of the posts on this forum, it saddens me to realize how little do we know about our own existence, yet we claim to know all about the existence or non-existence of God and the purpose of religion, when we don't even know the true definition of the word.

muscogee
09-11-2011, 07:37
I believe there were many reasons why Jesus had to die the way he died. It amazes me how God interconects his plans within plans like a fabric interweaved in a tridimensional way. Just in the passion of Jesus alone, everything had a significance even the exact number of blood drops that he shed thru the whole event. There is a lot going on, that we humans can not even dream to comprehend when it comes to the spiritual realm. Just by reading many of the posts on this forum, it saddens me to realize how little do we know about our own existence, yet we claim to know all about the existence or non-existence of God and the purpose of religion, when we don't even know the true definition of the word.

The churches have had over 1,000 years to hone and fine tune its messages. If you include Judaism, it's had several thousand years. In fact, that's it's primary message. Nothing to see here folks, Move along.

muscogee
09-11-2011, 08:11
But you shouldn't hold what dysfunctional people do while abusing religion against religion.

And I say that as someone who does not believe in religions, considers them all superstitions no different from witch doctors and voodoo practitioners, merely Santa Clause for adults.

Randy

IMO, religion tends to attract and create dysfunctional people. As Voltaire said, "If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities".

I worked hard at being a believer for 41 years. My life has steadily improved since I realized it was all BS and started facing and dealing with reality rather than retreating into fantasies when reality kicked me in the teeth. Knowing that God is not going to take care of you, or me, or anyone else, forces one to care of one's self. Knowing that God is not going to give you material wealth, in spite for what the Bible says, frees one to spend one' money taking care of one's self rather than giving it to a dysfunctional organization. Knowing that neither God or the church can absolve your sins causes you to carry the burden of your sins. This means that each of us has to do our best to make right the wrong we have done and do our best not to do any more wrong.

Paul7
09-11-2011, 08:27
So are you going to be buried with a coin in your mouth? If not, they why not. Provide your own refutation.

Maybe you should school me on this religion. If the founder fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles, and rose from the dead I might be impressed.

Because some religions are false it doesn't logically follow that all are false.

Paul7
09-11-2011, 08:30
IMO, religion tends to attract and create dysfunctional people.

The 90% that believe in God are nuts but you are sane, huh?

As Voltaire said, "If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities".

You mean like the Godless people running the French Revolution did? Robespierre said "Terror is nothing else than swift, severe, indomitable justice; it flows, then, from virtue."

I worked hard at being a believer for 41 years.

Our work has nothing to do with it, rather belief in HIS work on the cross. IMHO unbelief is moral rebellion against God, it is not because of intellectual problems. You don't have an intellectual problem, you have a sin problem.

My life has steadily improved since I realized it was all BS and started facing and dealing with reality rather than retreating into fantasies when reality kicked me in the teeth. Knowing that God is not going to take care of you, or me, or anyone else, forces one to care of one's self. Knowing that God is not going to give you material wealth, in spite for what the Bible says, frees one to spend one' money taking care of one's self rather than giving it to a dysfunctional organization. Knowing that neither God or the church can absolve your sins causes you to carry the burden of your sins. This means that each of us has to do our best to make right the wrong we have done and do our best not to do any more wrong.

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Prov. 14:12

fgutie35
09-11-2011, 09:01
The churches have had over 1,000 years to hone and fine tune its messages. If you include Judaism, it's had several thousand years. In fact, that's it's primary message. Nothing to see here folks, Move along.

You are still holding the church accountable for the actions of imperfect human beings, like I used to do.

Yrdawg
09-11-2011, 09:24
That's a large part of it, but people use religion to justify all kinds of abhorrent behavior as well. They physically, verbally, and emotionally abuse their spouses and children because God wants them to. They steal and justify it by giving 10% to the church. For many dysfunctional people religion is like alcohol or any other drug that gives people an emotional boost. Instead of getting drunk and being somebody, they got church and become somebody. A lot of insignificant insecure people like to look down their noses at other people and tell them how to live their lives. Some of the most screwed up people I have ever know were addicted to telling everyone else what God wanted them to do. It was the only thing that made them feel important.


Worked in lay ministries, music, even Pastored a half way chapel for one year.
I left when services were over : )

I found the same people you describe...for near 30 years

Yet here I am still hangin' on to God and Guns and believing Jesus has paid my ticket.

Not about values, behaviors or sacrifices but a Relationship with Jesus

and thats just The Way I Roll :wavey:

NMG26
09-11-2011, 15:04
So do you believe that God had to have Jesus killed as a sacrifice for your life?


I believe there were many reasons why Jesus had to die the way he died. It amazes me how God interconects his plans within plans like a fabric interweaved in a tridimensional way. Just in the passion of Jesus alone, everything had a significance even the exact number of blood drops that he shed thru the whole event. There is a lot going on, that we humans can not even dream to comprehend when it comes to the spiritual realm. Just by reading many of the posts on this forum, it saddens me to realize how little do we know about our own existence, yet we claim to know all about the existence or non-existence of God and the purpose of religion, when we don't even know the true definition of the word.

I see that you won't give a "yes or no" answer to the question. I guess maybe you have never really thought of it.

Anyhows I am enjoying your replies.

ArtificialGrape
09-11-2011, 15:40
Yes, I've never seen a good refutation of Pascal's Wager.

First Pascal's Wager relies upon a false duality -- Christian God or no god. To muscogee's point, you are gambling that you have sided with the "real" god of thousands of gods that man has worshiped. Not everybody is accepting of the claims that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead, so Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Greek, Egyptian, Native American, ..., gods are still in play.

The other problem is with the claim that if God does not exist then believers have lost nothing. To accept this, then you are stating that your time and money are worth nothing.

-ArtificialGrape

Paul7
09-11-2011, 16:38
First Pascal's Wager relies upon a false duality -- Christian God or no god.

That is generally the discussion of this forum, as we live in a predominantly Christian nation.

To muscogee's point, you are gambling that you have sided with the "real" god of thousands of gods that man has worshiped. Not everybody is accepting of the claims that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead, so Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Greek, Egyptian, Native American, ..., gods are still in play.

I would say Pascal's Wager applies to believers in false religions too. Both they and atheists will be toast in the end, short of their repenting and believing in Jesus Christ.

The other problem is with the claim that if God does not exist then believers have lost nothing. To accept this, then you are stating that your time and money are worth nothing.

Not if you believe this:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/reformedchicksblabbing/2008/03/research-has-found-that-christ.html

Are atheists who use their time and money for charitable causes also losing out?

Yrdawg
09-11-2011, 16:47
If I saw no signs of a divinity, I would fix myself in denial. If I saw everywhere the marks of a Creator, I would repose peacefully in faith. But seeing too much to deny Him, and too little to assure me, I am in a pitiful state, and I would wish a hundred times that if a god sustains nature it would reveal Him without ambiguity.[6]
We understand nothing of the works of God unless we take it as a principle that He wishes to blind some and to enlighten others.[7]


Yes...what other God claims to love... I don't know that answer..real question

Kentak
09-11-2011, 19:06
Maybe you should school me on this religion. If the founder fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles, and rose from the dead I might be impressed.


Are you so unschooled in other beliefs, past and present, so as to believe that christianity is the only faith that claims these kinds of things?

Tell me, how many other faiths, past and present, as well as non-theistic philosophies have you studied *in depth* on which to base a life long devotion to your religion of choice? If your answer includes some experience that moved you deeply, gave you solace in a time of need, an epiphany, or anything similar, I would simply point out that similar things have been experienced by persons of all sorts of religious faith and beliefs throughout history.

As I asked rhetorically before, "Why this religion and not another, why this holy book and not another, why this prophet and not another, etc?"

Kentak
09-11-2011, 19:20
Yes, I've never seen a good refutation of Pascal's Wager.

Yet, you are hardly hedging your bets. If you're playing that game, it's as if you've placed your chip on a single number on a roulette table with hundreds of numbers. Other than faith, can you articulate any rational basis for that choice. If your answer is that such a bet, even a random one, is better than the atheist's who doesn't bet at all, I'd say that's hell of a poor answer.

Kentak
09-11-2011, 19:29
I would say Pascal's Wager applies to believers in false religions too. Both they and atheists will be toast in the end, short of their repenting and believing in Jesus Christ.

What a sad and pathetic belief. I have not the slightest fear of your religion's savage extortion scam. Faith by extortion. Pitiful.

muscogee
09-11-2011, 19:36
You are still holding the church accountable for the actions of imperfect human beings, like I used to do.

Yes. What's wrong with that other than that it screws up your belief system? If my children screw up, I'm held responsible. If God's children screw up, he's responsible. God does not get a free pass simply it makes it easier to justify your belief system.

Paul7
09-11-2011, 19:44
Are you so unschooled in other beliefs, past and present, so as to believe that christianity is the only faith that claims these kinds of things?

OK, schooled one, in what other faith did God become man, fulfill prophecy, and rise from the dead? One big difference that comes to mind is Christianity is a gift, not works based like most others.

As I asked rhetorically before, "Why this religion and not another, why this holy book and not another, why this prophet and not another, etc?"

And I could just as easily ask, why your belief system and not another?

Paul7
09-11-2011, 19:46
What a sad and pathetic belief. I have not the slightest fear of your religion's savage extortion scam. Faith by extortion. Pitiful.

I don't think you know what extortion is:

Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion.


What is God gaining that depends on your acceptance or rejection of His offer of salvation?

Kentak
09-11-2011, 20:03
I don't think you know what extortion is:

Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion.


What is God gaining that depends on your acceptance or rejection of His offer of salvation?

You *religion* has set up the rules and fixed the game. It first says I *need* salvation, and then demands acceptance and belief to obtain salvation or suffer untold torment for eternity.

Nope, no coercion there.

Edited to add: Since you're getting technical about definitions, you said elsewhere that christianity was a "gift." From Wiki: "A gift or a present is the transfer of something without the expectation of receiving something in return." I assume the gift of christianity refers to salvation. Clearly, salvation is not a gift since I keep hearing christians saying I must turn my life over to Jesus to obtain it.

muscogee
09-11-2011, 20:07
Maybe you should school me on this religion. If the founder fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles, and rose from the dead I might be impressed.

Because some religions are false it doesn't logically follow that all are false.

Well, it's the Greco-Roman religion that Constantine replaced with Christianity because Christianity served his needs better. That's why you're a Christian and not something else. The fact that the Emperor of Rome issued a decree does not mean the decree is infallible.

Christianity is more of a monotheistic Greco-Roman religion than it is a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. Don't take my word, ask any knowledgeable Jew. I don't recall any Jewish demigods. However, they were all over the Greco-Roman and Egyptian societies. Caesar Augustus was the son of a god. If you want miracles, start with the "Labors of Hercules", another son of god.

As for the prophecies that Jesus made, none of them came true except the destruction of the Temple. It didn't take a prophet to see that coming. That's why the Sanhedrin worked with the Romans to get the numerous self self proclaimed messiahs off the streets. Bar Abbas, as in give us Barabbas, means son of the Father. I can predict there will be wars and rumors of wars in the Middle East. Would that make me a prophet or simply some who is aware of the obvious?

So ultimately, you reject Pascal's wager with regard to the Greco-Roman theology for the same reason I reject it for all religions. It just doesn't make sense. I won't be buried with a coin in my mouth, nor will I have a church funeral.

Dalton Wayne
09-11-2011, 20:14
Yes.

I believe that ALL organized religions primarily exist to supply an easy living for the clergy within them.

That all organized religions are little more than thousands of years long, self-sustaining, con games.

That religions themselves invent their Gods, rather than the reverse as they would have you believe, as a completely circular, unprovable justification for their own existence. :upeyes:

All Clergy are little more than con artists. :steamed:

And yes, they cram it down the throats of the innocent young because it was crammed down their throats, or worse they know what they are cramming is a crock of guano but cram it anyway for their own personal benefit.

Mankind could do a lot worse by putting the concept of "God" where it belongs, with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and GROW UP.

There would be a lot less blood and treasure wasted on religion if we did.

Remember. 9/11/01 happened over differing opinions about religions.

Well said, I couldn't agree more

Kentak
09-11-2011, 20:17
OK, schooled one, in what other faith did God become man, fulfill prophecy, and rise from the dead? One big difference that comes to mind is Christianity is a gift, not works based like most others.

Let me get this right. Your faith is based on the belief that these are unique to your religion? If I show you otherwise, will you renounce your faith?

And I could just as easily ask, why your belief system and not another?

Because I came to realize that the best way to understand the world was through science and reason, not faith in supernatural beings for which there was not the slightest evidence.


(text added)

Paul7
09-11-2011, 20:19
You *religion* has set up the rules and fixed the game. It first says I *need* salvation, and then demands acceptance and belief to obtain salvation or suffer untold torment for eternity.

Nope, no coercion there.

Who gains? What difference does it make to me or God what you believe? That's where your coercion analogy fails.

muscogee
09-11-2011, 20:19
OK, schooled one, in what other faith did God become man, fulfill prophecy, and rise from the dead?
Osiris did the same thing around 2,500 B.C. After rising from the dead, Osiris spent some time with his followers and then ascended bodily into Heaven. Before he left he said he was going to prepare a place for them and that he would come back for them. The ancient Egyptians also said that Osiris gave his broken body that they might live. Any of this sound familiar?

One big difference that comes to mind is Christianity is a gift, not works based like most others. This is simply not true. According to the New Testament, you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get into Heaven. Even then, many are called but few are chosen. Of course, you never hear sermons on that.

Kentak
09-11-2011, 20:41
Who gains? What difference does it make to me or God what you believe? That's where your coercion analogy fails.

It apparently makes a difference to the church. Google "inquisition."

BORNGEARHEAD
09-11-2011, 20:45
I have faith...In myself.

Paul7
09-11-2011, 22:56
It apparently makes a difference to the church. Google "inquisition."

What teachings of Christ were those people following? You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse.

John Hinckley shot Reagan for the sake of Jodie Foster, that doesn't make it her fault.

Paul7
09-11-2011, 23:01
Osiris did the same thing around 2,500 B.C. After rising from the dead, Osiris spent some time with his followers and then ascended bodily into Heaven. Before he left he said he was going to prepare a place for them and that he would come back for them. The ancient Egyptians also said that Osiris gave his broken body that they might live.

Osiris was a mythical figure, Jesus Christ was not. You can read about Him from Tacitus, who was called Rome's greatest historian.

This is simply not true. According to the New Testament, you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get into Heaven.

Apparently you never had a good understanding of Christianity. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Syclone538
09-12-2011, 00:24
...
IMHO unbelief is moral rebellion against God, it is not because of intellectual problems. You don't have an intellectual problem, you have a sin problem.
...

Is unbelief in the IPU and FSM a moral rebellion against the IPU and FSM?

Animal Mother
09-12-2011, 06:59
What teachings of Christ were those people following? You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse. and yet you and your buddy snowbird do exactly that with Islam.

muscogee
09-12-2011, 08:06
Osiris was a mythical figure, Jesus Christ was not. You can read about Him from Tacitus, who was called Rome's greatest historian.
I can read about Osiris. How do you explain the similarities between Jesus and Osiris? It appears the Jesus myth is a resurrection of the Osiris myth. Neither has returned and there is no rational reason to continue believing either will.

Apparently you never had a good understanding of Christianity. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

So according to you, all I have to do is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and I can do anything I want and still go to heaven. Good to know. That explains why so many Christians can act so abhorrently and still believe they're going to Heaven with no questions asked. You don't have to
sell everything you have and give it to the poor. Turn the other cheek and go the second mile. Love those who spitefully use you. Become eunuchs for Heaven's sake. Like many here, you selectively believe the Bible and and impugn the intellect of those who point out the parts you don't like.

ksg0245
09-12-2011, 08:08
Osiris was a mythical figure, Jesus Christ was not. You can read about Him from Tacitus, who was called Rome's greatest historian.

That he may have been mentioned by Tacitus doesn't mean he wasn't a myth, or that a mythology may have arisen around an actual person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#English_translation
The passage, which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day fire that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD and was thought by some Romans to have been set by Emperor Nero himself.[2]

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#Christians_or_Chrestians.3F
In 1950, at Harald Fuchs' request, Dr. Teresa Lodi, the director of the Laurentian Library, examined the features of this item of the manuscript; she concluded that there are still signs of an 'e' being erased, by removal of the upper and lower horizontal portions, and distortion of the remainder into an 'i'.[8] In 2008, Dr. Ida Giovanna Rao, the new head of the Laurentian Library's manuscript office, repeated Lodi's study, and concluded that it is likely that the 'i' is a correction of some earlier character (like an e), the change being made an extremely subtle one.[citation needed] Later the same year, it was discovered that[citation needed] under ultraviolet light, an 'e' is clearly visible in the space, meaning that the passage must originally have referred to chrestianos, a Latinized Greek word which could be interpreted as the good, after the Greek word χρηστός (chrestos).[citation needed] This has the meaning 'good, useful'.[9]

According to Professor Robert Renehan, it was "natural for a Roman to interpret the words [Christus and Christianus] as the similarly-sounding χρηστός".[10][11] Some early Greek scribes apparently had a similar issue, for the word for "Christians" is Χρηστιανούς in Acts of the Apostles 11:26 according to both Codex Sinaiticus and in Minuscule 81.[12]

"I believe that in our passage of Tacitus, the original reading Chrestianos is the true one," says Professor Robert Renehan, stating that it was "natural for a Roman to interpret the words [Christus and Christianus] as the similarly-sounding χρηστός". A "Christian scribe" would not make such an error.

Apparently you never had a good understanding of Christianity. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

And if you don't, you burn. How is that not extortion?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extort
to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift
something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation

Animal Mother
09-12-2011, 08:13
Osiris was a mythical figure, Jesus Christ was not. You can read about Him from Tacitus, who was called Rome's greatest historian. Plutarch describes Osiris. Guess he must be real.

John Rambo
09-12-2011, 08:15
It can be said religion is something people are indocrinated into as children when young and impressionable and can be taught to believe anything. I have a very catholic family. Tried to send me to catholic school, had m in church, etc. I easily pointed out how illogical many teachings were and how the bible has been havily edited in history as even a little kid. Today I have learned to accept that i do not know the true nature of the universe, i a god exists, if their is life after death, and am willing to accept that i will not know these things, i do not wish to force myself to believe an answer based on that faith thing. I knwo many people who were raised religious and believe everything they were taught, or raised athiest and same deal. Anyone had something pushed on you and didn't fall for it?

Checking in. I never bought into any of that crap. Luckily, once they saw I was having no part of it my family didn't push too hard.

If there is a God, its got nothing to do with any of these corrupt, contemptible religions mankind has created.

Paul7
09-12-2011, 21:06
Plutarch describes Osiris. Guess he must be real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis

Paul7
09-12-2011, 21:09
and yet you and your buddy snowbird do exactly that with Islam.

Jesus never harmed anyone, or made the cover of Military History Quarterly. Can you say that about the 'prophet'?

Paul7
09-12-2011, 21:14
I can read about Osiris. How do you explain the similarities between Jesus and Osiris?

There are very few: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

It appears the Jesus myth is a resurrection of the Osiris myth.

Nonsense. Man since the beginning has had an idea of God, why wouldn't there be an overlap?

Neither has returned and there is no rational reason to continue believing either will.

I get it, you reject Jesus Christ. So did many who saw His miracles.

So according to you, all I have to do is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and I can do anything I want and still go to heaven.

Wrong, stop making things up. Right belief leads to right action. The right actions don't save us, but they are an indication of the genuineness of faith.

SCmasterblaster
09-12-2011, 21:22
YES, I resisted religion for 37 years, and then Jesus changed my heart in a period of five weeks. I got saved on 15Aug1993, and I have been living for Him ever since.

muscogee
09-12-2011, 21:49
There are very few: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Nonsense. Man since the beginning has had an idea of God, why wouldn't there be an overlap?

Well which is it. Are there similarities or not. According to the web site, death and resurrection myths were quite common in that part of the world. Gods were dying and coming back to life all the time. Nothing unique about Jesus.

Wrong, stop making things up. Right belief leads to right action. The right actions don't save us, but they are an indication of the genuineness of faith.

I'm not making anything up. I can give chapter and verse if you need it. The big story in the New Testament is that Jesus is coming right back and if you want to go to heaven you have to sell everything you have, give it to the poor (because if you really believe you know you're not going to need it) and spend what little time you have left on Earth spreading the good news (i.e., the Gospel). That's not what any church will tell you because it would negate their raison d'etre.

Animal Mother
09-12-2011, 22:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory

As an aside, that doesn't really refute the point that you've set being mentioned by a historian as a test of "realness" and Osiris meets that standard.

ViperGlock
09-12-2011, 22:29
The atheists lack integrity, but have much faith to believe such an empty unorganized religion. They repeat the same “gospel” to each other, not to convince others, but to convince themselves of their own folly. They are confused why they have inner duality and secretly hide it.

ArtificialGrape
09-12-2011, 22:43
The atheists lack integrity, but have much faith to believe such an empty unorganized religion. They repeat the same “gospel” to each other, not to convince others, but to convince themselves of their own folly. They are confused why they have inner duality and secretly hide it.

Gotta appreciate the irony of this being your 666th post.

ViperGlock
09-12-2011, 22:57
Gotta appreciate the irony of this being your 666th post.

http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/StrategicTacticalAdvancedResistance/S4.gif
I appreciate the irony of Earth’s core more than your Pythagoreanism. I can have much fun in this place.

Smacktard
09-13-2011, 00:08
The atheists lack integrity, but have much faith to believe such an empty unorganized religion. They repeat the same “gospel” to each other, not to convince others, but to convince themselves of their own folly. They are confused why they have inner duality and secretly hide it.


Don't be silly!

...

ViperGlock
09-13-2011, 00:13
Don't be silly!

...


I am looking for the one who claims to have voice-to-skull transmissions. Can you point me to this person? :)

TKM
09-13-2011, 23:07
The atheists lack integrity, but have much faith to believe such an empty unorganized religion. They repeat the same “gospel” to each other, not to convince others, but to convince themselves of their own folly. They are confused why they have inner duality and secretly hide it.


Poof, your magic friend just put you on ignore.

ViperGlock
09-14-2011, 01:13
Poof, your magic friend just put you on ignore.

Poof, who cares.

Yrdawg
09-14-2011, 16:13
This went from a legit question some could benifit from to a few trolls bashing anything worthwhile about a belief system.

Sadly that will change for them one day...it always does.

but till then...it's all about

:brickwall:

:deadhorse:

Kentak
09-14-2011, 21:43
This went from a legit question some could benifit from to a few trolls bashing anything worthwhile about a belief system.

Sadly that will change for them one day...it always does.

but till then...it's all about

:brickwall:

:deadhorse:

Asking legitimate probing questions and challenging assertions isn't bashing. But, I agree that a lot of wall banging and dead horse beating can ensue.

ArtificialGrape
09-14-2011, 22:53
Are atheists who use their time and money for charitable causes also losing out?
Not when the time and money is not going to feed the machinery of organized religion.

My contributions are not going to build new (often magnificent) churches, or buy parsonages, or to buy Bibles and hymnals, or to support missionary work to tell people living in AIDS ravaged Sub-Saharan Africa that condoms are evil or that there is no salvation without accepting Jesus, ...

-ArtificialGrape

Paul7
09-15-2011, 08:56
Not when the time and money is not going to feed the machinery of organized religion.

My contributions are not going to build new (often magnificent) churches, or buy parsonages, or to buy Bibles and hymnals, or to support missionary work to tell people living in AIDS ravaged Sub-Saharan Africa that condoms are evil or that there is no salvation without accepting Jesus, ...

-ArtificialGrape

Is giving to World Vision organized religion? They are a Christian aid group active in over 100 countries, benefiting people regardless of creed.

Personally, I don't consider giving to public TV or Planned Parenthood legit giving, but many secular givers do. In the book 'Who Really Cares' it says religious Americans not only give more in the agregate, but they even give more to secular causes than secular Americans, and give blood more.

GlockVol
09-20-2011, 10:09
While religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are. This is not surprising, since most religions have merely canonized a few products of ancient ignorance and derangement and passed them down to us as though they were primordial truths.

The End of Faith - Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris is a good read. He doesn't sugarcoat anything and I recommend anyone read it...

Paul7
09-20-2011, 19:03
While religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.

You're sane and most other people are mad, huh? Many in insane asylums think that.

ArtificialGrape
09-20-2011, 20:34
Is giving to World Vision organized religion? They are a Christian aid group active in over 100 countries, benefiting people regardless of creed.

Personally, I don't consider giving to public TV or Planned Parenthood legit giving, but many secular givers do. In the book 'Who Really Cares' it says religious Americans not only give more in the agregate, but they even give more to secular causes than secular Americans, and give blood more.

In response to Pascal's Wager, I argued that I found Pascal's premise that if there is no God, then believers have lost nothing to be flawed because the time and money (spent on feeding religious machinery) were wasted.

Your point above that "religious Americans" make donations that I would not consider wasteful has no bearing on my argument that believers would still have wasted money if there is no God.

That is basically responding to the charge that "you waste money" with "but I also spend money that is not wasteful" -- it does nothing to refute the initial charge.

Then aside from money we still have the issue of one's time having value.

-ArtificialGrape

TKM
09-20-2011, 22:11
In response to Pascal's Wager, I argued that I found Pascal's premise that if there is no God, then believers have lost nothing to be flawed because the time and money (spent on feeding religious machinery) were wasted.

Your point above that "religious Americans" make donations that I would not consider wasteful has no bearing on my argument that believers would still have wasted money if there is no God.

That is basically responding to the charge that "you waste money" with "but I also spend money that is not wasteful" -- it does nothing to refute the initial charge.

Then aside from money we still have the issue of one's time having value.

-ArtificialGrape
+100 So how much better does pissing in the wind make you feel?

Just remember, you aint the only one getting wet.

muscogee
09-20-2011, 22:54
You're sane and most other people are mad, huh? Many in insane asylums think that.

Insane asylums are full of Gods, and agents of God.

muscogee
09-20-2011, 22:59
In response to Pascal's Wager, I argued that I found Pascal's premise that if there is no God, then believers have lost nothing to be flawed because the time and money (spent on feeding religious machinery) were wasted.

Your point above that "religious Americans" make donations that I would not consider wasteful has no bearing on my argument that believers would still have wasted money if there is no God.

That is basically responding to the charge that "you waste money" with "but I also spend money that is not wasteful" -- it does nothing to refute the initial charge.

Then aside from money we still have the issue of one's time having value.

-ArtificialGrape

The worst thing about religion is that it causes a tremendous angst for many who participate in it as well as those around those who participate in it.

Paul7
09-21-2011, 07:03
The worst thing about religion is that it causes a tremendous angst for many who participate in it as well as those around those who participate in it.

No angst here.

"For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."
Matt. 11:30

muscogee
09-21-2011, 08:40
No angst here.

"For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."
Matt. 11:30

There's a song about that. It's not true.

Yrdawg
09-21-2011, 14:09
There were reports that the DeepWater Horizon was torpedoed by a N Korean Mini Sub...no one worried about it because it was not believed

If someone questions rather denies the reality of God why do they even discuss what does not exist ??

When I know something does not exist there's just no more thought of it. Much less arguing for days about something I know isn't real.

Notice that I am not goingback an forth about what is real...I am a Christian and a follower of Jesus...but I promise not to try to force anyone else to believe yet the ones that do not believe a God exist spend days arguing that what isn't real is not real...are they arguing with themselves cause inside they know that something bigger and smarter does exist and the non believers just really don't like the idea of submission...making them Rebels IMO ???

Just thinkin out loud here

ArtificialGrape
09-21-2011, 14:59
There were reports that the DeepWater Horizon was torpedoed by a N Korean Mini Sub...no one worried about it because it was not believed

If someone questions rather denies the reality of God why do they even discuss what does not exist ??

When I know something does not exist there's just no more thought of it. Much less arguing for days about something I know isn't real.

Notice that I am not goingback an forth about what is real...I am a Christian and a follower of Jesus...but I promise not to try to force anyone else to believe yet the ones that do not believe a God exist spend days arguing that what isn't real is not real...are they arguing with themselves cause inside they know that something bigger and smarter does exist and the non believers just really don't like the idea of submission...making them Rebels IMO ???

Just thinkin out loud here

As a Christian I would expect you to dismiss Islam and the Qur'an. Does that mean that Islam and how some Muslims interpret the Qur'an deserves "no more thought"?

-ArificialGrape

ksg0245
09-21-2011, 15:52
There were reports that the DeepWater Horizon was torpedoed by a N Korean Mini Sub...no one worried about it because it was not believed

If someone questions rather denies the reality of God why do they even discuss what does not exist ??

When I know something does not exist there's just no more thought of it. Much less arguing for days about something I know isn't real.

Notice that I am not goingback an forth about what is real...I am a Christian and a follower of Jesus...but I promise not to try to force anyone else to believe yet the ones that do not believe a God exist spend days arguing that what isn't real is not real...are they arguing with themselves cause inside they know that something bigger and smarter does exist and the non believers just really don't like the idea of submission...making them Rebels IMO ???

Just thinkin out loud here

First off, most atheists don't claim to know deities don't exist, just that they don't believe they do.

Secondly, if you were regularly told you couldn't be moral or patriotic because you didn't accept Krishna, or that laws should be based on Krishna's teachings, or that certain scientific claims were wrong and shouldn't be taught because they didn't correspond to Krishna beliefs, or that "inside they know that something bigger and smarter does exist and the non Krishna believers just really don't like the idea of submission...making them Rebels IMO" and so on, would you still not give it any thought?

Yrdawg
09-21-2011, 16:05
I don't give the reason that people do bad things much thought really, whether it's their religion or thier dog whispering to them...people who do bad things to other people should be caught and punished per the law. I really care not what they might think their religion has to do with it

Athiest don't bother me ...I'm just like i said, thinking out loud as to why non believers spend so much effort to prove they are right.

In fairness I realize some Christians get the same way, I don't pay much attention to them either

Guess I wonder why the big fuss...I'm confident in my belief and it's based on a relationship..thats NOT something I can force on someone else even if we were both willing.

Just thinkin out loud again

ArtificialGrape
09-21-2011, 17:54
I don't give the reason that people do bad things much thought really, whether it's their religion or thier dog whispering to them...people who do bad things to other people should be caught and punished per the law. I really care not what they might think their religion has to do with it

Athiest don't bother me ...I'm just like i said, thinking out loud as to why non believers spend so much effort to prove they are right.

In fairness I realize some Christians get the same way, I don't pay much attention to them either

Guess I wonder why the big fuss...I'm confident in my belief and it's based on a relationship..thats NOT something I can force on someone else even if we were both willing.

Just thinkin out loud again

Based on your 1st paragraph above it appears that you have a reactive mindset -- that is certainly your right, but it's not always as black and white as waiting for somebody to commit a crime and then trying to chase them down.

Do your Christian beliefs affect how you vote from school board members up through congressional and presidential races, and to referendums, and how you urge your congressmen to vote?

You previously wrote: "I promise not to try to force anyone else to believe". While it may not be trying to force others to believe, if you answered "yes" to the question above, then you are voting to impose your morality on others.

Perhaps if you were in the minority you would not be so naive as to how the beliefs of others impact you. It does not matter if those beliefs are based on fact or not.

Perhaps civilization cannot survive our religious differences. :dunno: Just thinking out loud. :)

-ArtificialGrape

Yrdawg
09-22-2011, 05:08
Based on your 1st paragraph above it appears that you have a reactive mindset -- that is certainly your right, but it's not always as black and white as waiting for somebody to commit a crime and then trying to chase them down.

Do your Christian beliefs affect how you vote from school board members up through congressional and presidential races, and to referendums, and how you urge your congressmen to vote?

You previously wrote: "I promise not to try to force anyone else to believe". While it may not be trying to force others to believe, if you answered "yes" to the question above, then you are voting to impose your morality on others.

Perhaps if you were in the minority you would not be so naive as to how the beliefs of others impact you. It does not matter if those beliefs are based on fact or not.

Perhaps civilization cannot survive our religious differences. :dunno: Just thinking out loud. :)

-ArtificialGrape



Well, If I ever become minority I'll get back to you...don't have any way of knowing right now.

Interesting...civilization not surviving religion...probably true as the winners of the world game will likely be humanist / Jewish

Paul7
09-22-2011, 06:59
Do your Christian beliefs affect how you vote from school board members up through congressional and presidential races, and to referendums, and how you urge your congressmen to vote?

Yes.

You previously wrote: "I promise not to try to force anyone else to believe". While it may not be trying to force others to believe, if you answered "yes" to the question above, then you are voting to impose your morality on others.

So do you when you vote. All laws are an imposition of morality. The question is whose morality will be imposed?

ArtificialGrape
09-22-2011, 09:12
So do you when you vote. All laws are an imposition of morality. The question is whose morality will be imposed?
I completely agree. My point is that it is naive (for anybody) to suggest that their personal beliefs don't affect others.

Paul7
09-22-2011, 11:34
I completely agree. My point is that it is naive (for anybody) to suggest that their personal beliefs don't affect others.

OK, how about 'outside of the voting booth'?

ArtificialGrape
09-22-2011, 22:06
OK, how about 'outside of the voting booth'?
I'm not sure exactly where you're going with the question, but my point remains that it is naive or disingenuous for a Christian to suggest that his beliefs don't affect others.

I have never argued that my beliefs don't affect others.

There is however a difference in the impact of somebody voting to deny some activity and voting to allow it.

If one votes to ban gay marriage they are imposing their morality on those that wish to enter a gay marriage. If I vote to support gay marriage, I am not imposing on you -- I'm certainly not coercing you into a gay marriage.

C.S Lewis even argues against Christians imposing their morality on the population at large, just as he argues that it is not to the Muslims to prohibit him from having a drink just because they don't drink.

-ArtificialGrape

fgutie35
09-23-2011, 08:53
I'm not sure exactly where you're going with the question, but my point remains that it is naive or disingenuous for a Christian to suggest that his beliefs don't affect others.

I have never argued that my beliefs don't affect others.

There is however a difference in the impact of somebody voting to deny some activity and voting to allow it.

If one votes to ban gay marriage they are imposing their morality on those that wish to enter a gay marriage. If I vote to support gay marriage, I am not imposing on you -- I'm certainly not coercing you into a gay marriage.

C.S Lewis even argues against Christians imposing their morality on the population at large, just as he argues that it is not to the Muslims to prohibit him from having a drink just because they don't drink.

-ArtificialGrape

With all due respect, YES, you would be imposing. one side minded people always make that mistake, christian or atheist. You cannot see beyond the scope of your own ideals therefore you think that when is about you, no one gets hurt. (eg. you would be imposing on my efforts to teach my kids what nature intended when they were born male or female and the purpose for it).

ksg0245
09-23-2011, 10:59
With all due respect, YES, you would be imposing. one side minded people always make that mistake, christian or atheist. You cannot see beyond the scope of your own ideals therefore you think that when is about you, no one gets hurt. (eg. you would be imposing on my efforts to teach my kids what nature intended when they were born male or female and the purpose for it).

You would still be free to teach your children "what nature intended," just as others are free to teach their children interracial marriage is wrong, for example.

ArtificialGrape
09-23-2011, 11:59
With all due respect, YES, you would be imposing. one side minded people always make that mistake, christian or atheist. You cannot see beyond the scope of your own ideals therefore you think that when is about you, no one gets hurt. (eg. you would be imposing on my efforts to teach my kids what nature intended when they were born male or female and the purpose for it).
Then I would suggest that you not expose your children to zoos or wildlife in nature where homosexual behavior is observed because the reality of nature could really interfere with how you wish to portray "what nature intended" to your kids.

Abortion is legal, does that impose on your ability to teach your kids that abortion is wrong? Alcohol is legal and many believe that the consumption of alcohol is wrong -- does the legality of alcohol keep parents from teaching children that alcohol is wrong? And pornography... and gambling... and in parts of Nevada prostitution...

I expect that you have done an adequate with your children that just because something is legal they don't interpret that as it aligning with your core beliefs, but perhaps that is just my one side mindedness speaking.

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-23-2011, 12:01
You would still be free to teach your children "what nature intended," just as others are free to teach their children interracial marriage is wrong, for example.

Exactly, he can still teach his children that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord, and in the good ole days it even warranted the death penalty.

-ArtificialGrape

fgutie35
09-23-2011, 12:20
You would still be free to teach your children "what nature intended," just as others are free to teach their children interracial marriage is wrong, for example.

So are the gay community free to live together and have sexual relationships. Your point is?

fgutie35
09-23-2011, 12:24
Then I would suggest that you not expose your children to zoos or wildlife in nature where homosexual behavior is observed because the reality of nature could really interfere with how you wish to portray "what nature intended" to your kids.

Abortion is legal, does that impose on your ability to teach your kids that abortion is wrong? Alcohol is legal and many believe that the consumption of alcohol is wrong -- does the legality of alcohol keep parents from teaching children that alcohol is wrong? And pornography... and gambling... and in parts of Nevada prostitution...

I expect that you have done an adequate with your children that just because something is legal they don't interpret that as it aligning with your core beliefs, but perhaps that is just my one side mindedness speaking.

-ArtificialGrape

The point I'm trying to make is the aspect of "imposing" on someone elses ideals. There is always going to be collateral damage when a group decides to impose their ideals no matter who they are, and that is the point I'm trying to make. Just because you think your ideals are "Neutral" and therefore shouldn't affect no one, does not mean they don't.

ksg0245
09-23-2011, 13:23
So are the gay community free to live together and have sexual relationships. Your point is?

That they aren't free to marry; if they could, it would have no effect on anyone not wanting to marry a same-sex person, in exactly the same way that interracial marriage has no effect on people not in interracial relationships. Surprised you missed that.

Green_Manelishi
09-24-2011, 17:08
Anyone had something pushed on you and didn't fall for it?

That there is no God.
That evolution is proven.
That Islam's Allah is the same as the Judeo-Christian Jehovah.
That there is nothing wrong with adding ice and water to whisky.

Yrdawg
09-24-2011, 17:24
That there is no God.
That evolution is proven.
That Islam's Allah is the same as the Judeo-Christian Jehovah.
That there is nothing wrong with adding ice and water to whisky.

just the answer for that question...very good

Allah will NEVER = JEHOVAH :poke:

Diesel McBadass
09-27-2011, 13:58
That there is no God.
That evolution is proven.
That Islam's Allah is the same as the Judeo-Christian Jehovah.
That there is nothing wrong with adding ice and water to whisky.

actually adding ice is wrong.