What do you guys think about lasers on a carry gun? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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LarryD1130
08-23-2011, 19:22
I recently purchased a Kahr PM9 and I'm considering getting a Crimson Trace for it. I just want to hear what others have to say about them.

ALSO, what do you guys think about Glock's standard sights vs night sights?

samuse
08-23-2011, 22:08
I don't feel like I need a laser but I don't think they are a bad idea either. I would definitely consider them an advantage.

Glock night sights are pretty good.

Rob1109
08-23-2011, 22:25
I recently purchased a Kahr PM9 and I'm considering getting a Crimson Trace for it. I just want to hear what others have to say about them.

ALSO, what do you guys think about Glock's standard sights vs night sights?

I have a J-Frame CT, LCP w/CT, and a G26 w/CT......'nuf said!

Zukoda
08-23-2011, 22:55
Had a PM-9 with the laser... Worked pretty well and definitely made it easier to get on target faster... My only issue was it seemed to need adjustment every 100 rounds or so... Might have been something I was or was not doing though...

up1911fan
08-23-2011, 23:43
I like them on a pocket gun. If you like 3 dot sight's the Glock NS are a good deal.

happyguy
08-24-2011, 01:09
It's another tool.

I think they are great for people with failing eyesight.

Just don't expect it to make up for poor marksmanship.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

LarryD1130
08-24-2011, 09:45
Had a PM-9 with the laser... Worked pretty well and definitely made it easier to get on target faster... My only issue was it seemed to need adjustment every 100 rounds or so... Might have been something I was or was not doing though...

Why did you sell it?

scorpio2011
08-24-2011, 10:23
are you really going to look for the laser dot in a defensive situation???

SCC
08-24-2011, 14:45
are you really going to look for the laser dot in a defensive situation???
thats it you will not be thinking of it :shocked:

rookie1983
08-24-2011, 14:51
I was shooting next to a gentleman with a laser on his G23 at the range who lined the laser up down range, took a few seconds while he waited for his grip to steady and for the laser to stop shaking. Then when it was right where he wanted it he jerked the tirgger back hard, the laser jumped and the bullet didn't hit anywhere close to where it was supposed to... Point being the guy was focusing so hard on getting the laser on the target and making sure he pulled when it was where he wanted it he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it.

They are fine for some things, like hollywood and tacti-cool setups, but I think they are over-rated.

Adjuster
08-24-2011, 14:59
A carry gun doesn't need a laser or sights. Fun at the range tho.

IGotIt
08-24-2011, 15:38
It's a distraction in the real world, but I agree with others that it's fun at the range.

LarryD1130
08-25-2011, 13:21
I didn't plan on relying on the laser for accuracy. I plan on using it when I can't line up my sights in time or for intimidation purposes. If someone is going to attack you, that laser on their chest will stop them real quick.

1 old 0311
08-25-2011, 13:57
All my carry guns have CT's.

Adjuster
08-25-2011, 14:51
I didn't plan on relying on the laser for accuracy. I plan on using it when I can't line up my sights in time or for intimidation purposes. If someone is going to attack you, that laser on their chest will stop them real quick.


Do people that are attacking you look down at their own chests?



/

Batesmotel
08-25-2011, 14:56
Don't like them. Trained with MP5s with them.
Don't like how they point both ways.
Don't like looking for the dot.
We scored much higher when we turned them off.

Brian Lee
08-25-2011, 15:00
Lasers totally change the effectiveness of any pocket gun IMO. If there's anyone out there who can actually aim worth a poop with the sights on an LCP then more power to them, but I can't do it. A laser is what makes those things just as usable as a real gun that's big enough to aim.

LarryD1130
08-25-2011, 18:31
I didn't know this was such a touchy subject.

friej
08-25-2011, 21:27
Do people that are attacking you look down at their own chests?




/


YEP! Especially when there's a blinking red light on their heart. It's called peripheral vision.

G19aps
08-26-2011, 04:31
I didn't know this was such a touchy subject.

Any accessory that costs a large fraction of the gun that it goes on will have strong opponents and proponents.

As far as looking for the laser... you can still see the door knob on a door if you're looking at the center or top of the door right?

G19aps
08-26-2011, 04:32
YEP! Especially when there's a blinking red light on their heart. It's called peripheral vision.

Holy crap! Your peripheral vision extends through the bottom of your head and downwards?

uhlawpup
08-26-2011, 04:50
I didn't plan on relying on the laser for accuracy. I plan on using it when I can't line up my sights in time or for intimidation purposes. If someone is going to attack you, that laser on their chest will stop them real quick.

Or it will just cause them to shoot if they have a gun.

My self defense plan doesn't include intimidation. I will disengage if at all possible, and, if not, will rely on something more substantial than synchronous photos to defend myself.

friej
08-26-2011, 11:18
Holy crap! Your peripheral vision extends through the bottom of your head and downwards?

YEOW! Is that comment for real???:rofl:

Just1More
08-26-2011, 11:24
Gimmick. In a SD situation you won't be aiming, you'll be dumping fast....really fast.

LarryD1130
08-26-2011, 11:45
Gimmick. In a SD situation you won't be aiming, you'll be dumping fast....really fast.

Exactly, that's why it would be nice to paint that red dot on something for the first shot.

skip a stone
08-26-2011, 17:35
On page two of this topic on lights lasers and optics I wrote a response to a persons thread "to laser or not to laser." Instead of retyping all of it, page down or go to page two and look for that heading and my response. You may find some of the points important, at least worth thinking about.

-Skip-

G19aps
08-27-2011, 09:20
YEOW! Is that comment for real???:rofl:

Actually, yes. If I'm standing straight up and looking ahead which I would be if I was attacking someone, the only other part of my body my eyes pick up is the end of my nose. Can you see more of your body? I'm genuinely curious, maybe my eyes are screwed up.

Never Nervous
08-27-2011, 17:12
I'm going to put a laser on the lnib G30 SF that I put on lay-a-way today. I have put a bore sighter in my other Glocks to practice point shooting. You can get on target pretty easy with practice. I don't see why one would be looking for the red dot anywhere but on target. The dump is for real and will surely happen, but the right kind of practice will get you close to where you need to be. That's why we put thousands of rounds down range isn't it?:dunno:

NN

jadickson
08-27-2011, 17:29
I got a Crimson Trace for the Glock 19 I carry. Here was my reasoning: when flight or fight kicks in, when you have tunnel vision and the logic / reason part of your brain totally disappears, your eyes will be locked on the bad guy and you won't even be thinking (unless you have had serious military style training under high stress, etc.). Your instinct will not be to look at your sights and carefully align everything like you do at the firing range. With a laser, you can just look at the target.

Plenty of keyboard warriors will flame this point of view, saying that a person like me just lacks training and discipline. Good point, keyboard warrior. That's why I bought the laser. I'm a music teacher, not a soldier.

Lots of people advocate night sights. That's cool if you like them. I just think if I am in a situation where it is so dark that I can't see the regular sights right in front of my face, I probably can't see the bad guy either. So I don't see the point in having night sights, unless you have a mounted flashlight or something.

Here's the caveat: if you can't shoot well without a laser, then you still won't shoot well with one. When I go to the range, I put some masking tape over my laser.

Get what you like, not what people on Glocktalk like. It's your life that you're protecting, not ours.

BuckyP
08-27-2011, 18:14
I got a Crimson Trace for the Glock 19 I carry. Here was my reasoning: when flight or fight kicks in, when you have tunnel vision and the logic / reason part of your brain totally disappears, your eyes will be locked on the bad guy and you won't even be thinking (unless you have had serious military style training under high stress, etc.). Your instinct will not be to look at your sights and carefully align everything like you do at the firing range. With a laser, you can just look at the target.


This.

:goodpost:

Walk Soft
08-27-2011, 18:18
I have two lasergrips and one laserguard.I remove or turn them off before I practice or train.I can imagine how they'd be valuable if needed.

LarryD1130
08-27-2011, 18:56
I took the PM9 to the range for the first time today. It is a really nice shooter. I can't express how smooth it was.

wrenrj1
08-27-2011, 19:02
As for my Ruger LCR, the laser I purchased would not stay zero'd with the pocket carry. I would not want to trust the laser as a substitute for practice at point and shoot, as the LCR's sights are marginal at best. I am speaking just from experience with this pistol.

HexHead
08-27-2011, 19:10
My Bodyguard 380 has a laser, standard. It also has real sights on it. I can foresee some situations where having a laser could be useful. Nice to have the laser as an option. But I'd rely on the traditional sights first.

John Biltz
08-27-2011, 21:52
Anything I plan on carrying has a laser or a red dot on it except shotguns. My eyes are crap. They were never real good then I got old. When I go to the range I shoot 50 rounds without the laser then 50 rounds with the laser. You need to shoot it both ways. I shoot very differently with the laser than with iron sights. When I shoot with the laser its about being fast and good enough. Train with snap caps to draw and point, pretty quickly the laser dot will begin to show up exactly where your eyes are looking.

Some of the comments here kill me. The one about the guy with the laser fiddling with the laser then jerking the trigger, yeah, none of us have ever seen anyone with iron sights do this. You don't search for the dot you look and the dot should just appear there. If it doesn't then go for the sights, when I shoot with the laser I'm looking across the top of the gun and can switch to the sights easily. If this happens in a fight and you are just point shooting and do the same thing then you would be shooting and missing. Either way its about hand and eye coordination. If you are a top competitor shooter who shoots thousands of rounds a week you probably don't need or want one. I'm not one of those guys. As for the laser being seen in both directions, that might be true in a home defense situation where you are strong pointing a position in your home, they also have an off switch. On the street with some muggers, I'm standing in the open and they are close, they can see me! I'll also say that laser does not lie, if you are at the range and the dot is shaking and moving, you are shaking and moving. You are probably doing the same thing with iron sights but don't know it. If the dot doesn't come back to point of aim after recoil you know it.

happyguy
08-28-2011, 07:12
Anything I plan on carrying has a laser or a red dot on it except shotguns. My eyes are crap. They were never real good then I got old. When I go to the range I shoot 50 rounds without the laser then 50 rounds with the laser. You need to shoot it both ways. I shoot very differently with the laser than with iron sights. When I shoot with the laser its about being fast and good enough. Train with snap caps to draw and point, pretty quickly the laser dot will begin to show up exactly where your eyes are looking.

Some of the comments here kill me. The one about the guy with the laser fiddling with the laser then jerking the trigger, yeah, none of us have ever seen anyone with iron sights do this. You don't search for the dot you look and the dot should just appear there. If it doesn't then go for the sights, when I shoot with the laser I'm looking across the top of the gun and can switch to the sights easily. If this happens in a fight and you are just point shooting and do the same thing then you would be shooting and missing. Either way its about hand and eye coordination. If you are a top competitor shooter who shoots thousands of rounds a week you probably don't need or want one. I'm not one of those guys. As for the laser being seen in both directions, that might be true in a home defense situation where you are strong pointing a position in your home, they also have an off switch. On the street with some muggers, I'm standing in the open and they are close, they can see me! I'll also say that laser does not lie, if you are at the range and the dot is shaking and moving, you are shaking and moving. You are probably doing the same thing with iron sights but don't know it. If the dot doesn't come back to point of aim after recoil you know it.

Yep, nothing wrong with a laser. Just some of the people that use them.

As you read the comments of the ones that don't like them the problems they recount are almost always the result of poor marksmanship skills, not anything to do with the laser. Like most of the current generation, they look to technology to fix everything that is wrong and when it doesn't, they blame the technology.

They need to re-evaluate their expectations and make sure they understand the uses and limitations of the technology they are contemplating.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

skip a stone
08-28-2011, 15:25
I was shooting next to a gentleman with a laser on his G23 at the range who lined the laser up down range, took a few seconds while he waited for his grip to steady and for the laser to stop shaking. Then when it was right where he wanted it he jerked the tirgger back hard, the laser jumped and the bullet didn't hit anywhere close to where it was supposed to... Point being the guy was focusing so hard on getting the laser on the target and making sure he pulled when it was where he wanted it he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it.

They are fine for some things, like hollywood and tacti-cool setups, but I think they are over-rated.

I think you bring up an important point here. Also I think you may have formed an opinion a little early in this fellows personal learning curve. Products are actually being made to use lasers to show a shooter just what they are doing wrong at the point of trigger pull. I mentioned an earlier thread that I posted on the second page of this forum in the "to laser or not to laser, that is the question" thread. It is very important to train so if something bad happens, a part of your brain will fall back into what I need to do now mode.

Nobody truly knows what they will react like in a super high stress situation until it happens. Thousands of variables kick in along with an overdose of adrenaline in most people. So if you do find yourself pulling your weapon, you may end up shaking so bad the red dot of the laser is all over the place in a 5 to 10 foot radius flying wildly around a potential threat. Others that have a little cooler heads by nature may find it comforting to see a little red dot to drag quickly over to the center of the threat, and start checking for potential victims behind their target before blasting away. (bullets can and do pass through people and hit unintended targets in shootings)

As in the thread before it's always good to remind each other that every bullet that leaves our weapons, we are responsible for. If a laser helps put the bullets leaving your CCW or any other weapon on target then isn't that a good thing? I do have issue with those that throw out the scenerio of scaring a threat into submission by pointing a laser at them...if your weapon is drawn it's not a "junk" waving contest at that point. The threat is either getting shot or maybe your weapon should still be in it's holster. You might be surprised at how many idiots that are not armed will challenge and even charge a person holding a pistol, espeacially if they are drunk. Then, depending on how good the DA is, and how bad your lawyer is you are going away for a long time for murder. It's best not to place yourself in a place of danger because you have a lethal weapon on your person...even if it has a cool laser on it.

Generalcarry
09-01-2011, 04:43
Bought a CT for my 642. Took it to the range to sight in, only the sun was behind me. Lights, in general, do not work well in sunlight.

eracer
09-01-2011, 05:39
Actually, yes. If I'm standing straight up and looking ahead which I would be if I was attacking someone, the only other part of my body my eyes pick up is the end of my nose. Can you see more of your body? I'm genuinely curious, maybe my eyes are screwed up.It's not the dot on your chest... It's the scintillating dot on the gun that is pointed at your chest, and if you are outside of arm's length pointing a laser at my chest, I will see it.

If you are within arm's length, then it really doesn't matter whether I can see the laser or not.

I have a CT on my Kahr PM45. I'm not sure whether I will keep it or not.

Jake Starr
09-01-2011, 05:47
They are fine for some things, like hollywood and tacti-cool setups, but I think they are over-rated.

This..but if you want them get em. But in real life you will likely resort to point shooting...lasers are an aid to point shooting. Learn how to point shoot and then you won't need the aid.

Spend more money on ammo and training rather than aid...

pipedreams
09-01-2011, 06:50
It's a tool to aid you but to totally rely on the laser is not desirable. As any tool it could fail at a critical moment. That said I have CT on my G26 & LC9 find they work well and I can point it with either hand without sight alignment. That said in bright light you may not be able to see the red dot so there is not substitute for practice and more practice.

dreis454
09-01-2011, 07:14
i think they are a good thing because you MAY not be able to use your sights in an SD situation.

HoldHard
09-01-2011, 07:34
Both carry guns (G21 & G30) have night sights and Crimson Trace lasers.

Stress induced adrenaline dumps disrupt fine motor skills. In a "fight or flight" situation your trigger control will not be the same as if you are standing on a nice safe range, punching paper.

Personally, if it ever comes to a point where I have to fire my carry weapon, I want to take advantage of all the technology possible to make sure all the rounds go where they are intended.

Just my 2 cents...

HH

wrenrj1
09-01-2011, 18:55
I hope your lasers stay zero'd. My personal experience with my LCP is that the laser did not maintain zero after pocket carry for several weeks. It only takes small movements to the laser to put it off kilter IMHO. For pocket carry and short range shooting, I'll rely on point and shoot practice for accuracy.

As for the intimidation factor with the laser putting a dot on the perp, they're looking at you, not their chest. I doubt they'll stop for a stand off as opposed to a Mel Gibson movie, get over that scenario.

LarryD1130
09-02-2011, 08:34
I expect most criminals to be dumb but to say that they won't see a laser because they will be looking at me is ridiculous. They would at least see the laser shining off the gun and make a good assumption it's on them.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

C J
09-03-2011, 18:02
Not just a novelty item. They do serve a purpose. Kind of a-leg-up. If your going to get a laser, break out the wallet and get a Crimson Trace. It's worth the money. The grip laser for the Glocks is the way to go. Although I have to say it can be a bit thick.

jtull7
09-03-2011, 19:07
I wouldn't touch a laser with a ten-foot pole. I am a shooter. And a good one. I believe in acquiring a target with normal sights and shooting it.

What happens if you become habituated with your instant-presto groovy way-too-cool laser sights and:

The batteries fail, or

The sighting mechanism becomes misaligned.

Not for me. I'm a shooter, not a gizmo-shooter.

My opinion only.

Kaybe
09-03-2011, 22:24
My opinion. Lasers are for pointing things out on a screen and for the cats to chase. Working for my Dept, I pulled an 870 on someone and yelled at them to get down or they would be shot. I saw the guy. I didn't see the front bead sight, barrel or any part of the 870. I saw the threat. I was focused on the threat. This is exactly what the vast majority of people will do. It is very difficult, almost impossible to duplicate that type of stress for training. I also teach firearms. I don't think the laser will be seen with the stress level that high. Also, if you depend on that laser, what will you do when it doesn't work when you want it to? Battery dead, knocked out of alignment, loose?
I know that mechanical things fail as well as electrical things do. I can see using UV lasers in a military application where the soldiers train extensively with them. 99 percent of CCW holders won't even come close to that kind of training. But for everyday carry, they are just a gimmick. CT has magazine ads that say that the "laser" saved his life, saved her life. CRAP! The gun, used by a law abiding citizen saved their life, not a dot of light. Unless the light is almost directly in the eyes of the bad guy, he/she won't see it. They are under a great amount of stress as well. Their stress reactions are almost the same as yours. They will see you, prey upon you, but they won't really see a laser on their chest at all. Shooting situations happen really fast and are over really fast the majority of the time. If lasers were all that good for shooting, why doesn't most or all of LE use them? SWAT maybe, but you never really see them on the street cops guns. I don't know of any dept that uses them. But, I haven't asked all of them either. In my opinion, save the extra money and buy practice ammo. Check out the old point shooting video made by Sykes/Fairbaine. Guys shooting from the hip and hitting center mass several yards out using tracers in 1911 pistols. Training is so much better than toys. A bright flashlight would be so much better than any laser. Target ID, temporarily blind an assailant and so on. Get a good light, leave the lasers for the cats to chase. They really love that!!

skip a stone
09-09-2011, 11:25
I wouldn't touch a laser with a ten-foot pole. I am a shooter. And a good one. I believe in acquiring a target with normal sights and shooting it.

What happens if you become habituated with your instant-presto groovy way-too-cool laser sights and:

The batteries fail, or

The sighting mechanism becomes misaligned.

Not for me. I'm a shooter, not a gizmo-shooter.

My opinion only.

I like your opinion, and respect it. I do have a CrimsonTrace laserguard on my G33 and have adjusted it to only be seen out to extended ranges when I'm looking down the original sights of the weapon. In this if I were flat on my ass and point shooting a little red dot may come in handy at a target three feet away if that's all I had to pick up on in a fast paced situation, yet at distance beyond comfortable shooting with a tiny pistol a laser showing up at 75 ft may also be helpful. Most of this is all theory anyway and quite possibly may go right out the window, but continued training helps no matter what, and for that I commend you. nothing beats consistant training with a bare bones sighting system.

1 old 0311
09-09-2011, 13:04
I have them, and use them. They are also E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T for point shooting practice indoors. Each to his own.

Bren
09-09-2011, 13:16
I have no real interest in a laser on a carry gun - I barley care about having sights and doubt I'd ever use them, but "just in case" and they came with the gun.

Lasers totally change the effectiveness of any pocket gun IMO. If there's anyone out there who can actually aim worth a poop with the sights on an LCP then more power to them, but I can't do it. A laser is what makes those things just as usable as a real gun that's big enough to aim.

At LCP range, I would never try to aim. I assume the whole "aim every shot" thing is a piece of liability advice the newer crop of instructors got from their lawyers. If you need to aim every shot, especially at close ranges, within 10 yards or so, you don't know how to shoot a handgun and you are missing the part that gives you the greatest advantage in self-defense scenarios (speed).

I have taught fairly unskilled shooters and they can learn to put shots in the center ring from 5-7 yards, with no sights and without raising the gun in front of their eyes, a lot faster and easier than they can learn to do it with sights from 25 yards. "3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds" remains true enough that a person who carries a gun really should spend time on the close and fast shooting skills.

I was shooting next to a gentleman with a laser on his G23 at the range who lined the laser up down range, took a few seconds while he waited for his grip to steady and for the laser to stop shaking. Then when it was right where he wanted it he jerked the tirgger back hard, the laser jumped and the bullet didn't hit anywhere close to where it was supposed to... Point being the guy was focusing so hard on getting the laser on the target and making sure he pulled when it was where he wanted it he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it.

They are fine for some things, like hollywood and tacti-cool setups, but I think they are over-rated.

A laser does not make up for having no idea about the fundamentals of shooting. Unfortunately, newb shooters don't realize that "sights" and "aiming" are not the only, or even the most important, fundamentals for hitting the target.