Protecting yourself while in the yard Post-TSHTF [Archive] - Glock Talk

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wjv
08-26-2011, 16:14
So lets say that we do have a MAJOR -Straight out of Hollywood- SHTF

Cities have burned to the ground because of riots
10-20% of the population is dead
Millions of people are now nomadic and have to scrounge for food & water on a daily basis
60% of the remaining population is starving
38% of the remaining population is REALLY hungry
2% (like you) prepared and has lots of food and supplies.

Your living in your home, or at your BOL
You have a water source 200 yards away (across the road)
You have a garden, and maybe some chickens/rabbits in the back yard
3-4 people in your home capable of using firearms

So how do you protect yourself when you need to go outdoors:
- to get water
- to tend to the garden
- to feed the chickens/rabbits
- to let the dog out so he can pee

Do you do a 360 check of the area before going out?
Do you go out two at a time (1 to do the task, 1 to watch the other persons back)
Only go out at night?
How do you mitigate your exposure?

Seem to me that it's a catch 22. You NEED to go outside, but by doing so, you place yourself at extreme risk.

What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards :supergrin:

But seriously, if someone observes your home for a few days, it wouldn't be to hard to set up an ambush, and you could find yourself in deep s*** very quickly! I'm not really sure what the right answer is. If you're fortunate enough to have like minded neighbors, I could see setting up some sort of security perimeter. But it seems to me that would take a large number of people.

Ideas? Thoughts?

PS: Regarding the dog. . I have a Yorkie (see avatar) so there is no way that he is going to be an "outside" dog. .

1 old 0311
08-26-2011, 16:22
According to Fnfal the most popular 'daily business' weapon is a handgun.

ChuteTheMall
08-26-2011, 16:24
So how do you protect yourself when you need to go outdoors:
- to get water
- to tend to the garden
- to feed the chickens/rabbits
- to let the dog out so he can pee

Do you do a 360 check of the area before going out?
Do you go out two at a time (1 to do the task, 1 to watch the other persons back)
Only go out at night?
How do you mitigate your exposure?


What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards :supergrin:



360 check? Yes.
Two at a time? Yes.
Only at night? Mostly, but random times.
Mitigate? Quick trips at random times, to and from random directions, and not every day.

Gunkid? I'd let the dogs out (woof woof) to munch on his debarked chihuahua.

Seriously, nobody is going to patiently wait for me for days and nights at a time. I'm just another locked building.

I'd bring in the water, the rabbits, the chickens, and even the whole dang garden if I was worried about that.

michael e
08-26-2011, 16:43
If was a true SHTF, I would be at my grandfathers place. Its on a hill, only houses around are all family. The garden is between my uncles and gramps place. Only way in is past my other uncles house a mile befor us.

jdavionic
08-26-2011, 16:49
I think it serves as a good example of how there is power in numbers. You cannot be on your guard 24/7. However the more people you can develop a group with, the more you are capable of providing security for your area.

Deployment Solu
08-26-2011, 17:07
Families in the Old West used do something called "Doubling Up". Two or more families would all go to one ranch or one farm in times of trouble(think Indian attack). This strategy would work well and relieve the security aspect for just one or two people.

We may be facing a modern Indian attack(not real American Indians(Native Americans) of course, more like criminal bandits). The more firepower you have the better, the more sets of eyes the better...etc.

AK_Stick
08-26-2011, 17:22
I think you grossly underestimate the number of people dead, if the major cities are razed. I'd guess you're looking at closer to 50% of the population dead, before they're out of the cities.


But I have dogs, motion detectors, CCTV, I have top of the line NVG's/IR, I am remote, and I have sited some stuff to alert me should people be moving through the area I occupy.


Your best defense, is stealth, fences/shubbery to hide what you've got from the outside world. Move at night when you have to go to places that are likely threats, and blend in.

kirgi08
08-26-2011, 17:32
Overwatch and random times.Don't settle inta patters.'08.

cowboy1964
08-26-2011, 17:35
Safety in numbers. Unless you're really in a desolate location I can see armed neighborhood patrols being a common occurence.

PS. You are probably 1000x more likely to be kiled by lighting than in a Hollywood-style SHTF acopalypse.

quake
08-26-2011, 17:42
On the “360 check”, a small solar/battery setup can power some cameras pretty easily. Only complication & energy-hog would be the monitor power, but if you only ran the monitor as needed, it could be done pretty economically. For that matter, since you wouldn’t be recording (I assume), there’d be no reasons to run the cameras constantly either, which would also reduce requirements. Typical small, color hi-resolution security camera – the self-contained type, not the ones in a separate box housing – tend to pull 300-500 milliamps is all even with IR illuminators running, so eight (two on each corner) would create a demand of 3-4 amps or so. Figure another 60 watts (five amps at 12vdc) for a monitor maybe? Figuring how many hours (more probably ‘minutes’) you think you’d want to run it per day, would tell you how large a battery you’d need; and that would tell you what size charging panel you’d need.

Quick & dirty – half hour a day usage means ~4 or 5 amp/hours per day needed. (That’s 48-60 watt/hours if we’re at 12volts.) A small ten-watt panel, collecting ten hours a day, figure ~80 watt/hours a day capacity. Hook up with a charge controller and a (probably) 12 amp/hour battery, and you’re good to go for literally years; until the battery needs replacing, probably 4-6 years down the road. Total cost – probably $140-160 for the panel, battery, and charge controller. Figure another $50-$80 per camera if you buy online and can live with just “good”. Throw in a switcher/quad unit (no idea what they cost – we don’t use them) a small tv or pc monitor and a small sine-wave inverter (unless you get a 12volt monitor), and done for probably 7 or 8 hundred dollars total. It could run 24/7 nowadays off of normal house power, and run on an as-needed basis if house power were unavailable.

Just a thought; may not really be worth the hassle or expense for some folks. And also bear in mind that even IR illuminators are visible to a degree when looked at pretty much straight-on; unless you go with higher-nm and therefore higher cost units.


On the "how do you protect yourself", standard handgun & vest would be my first thoughts. I know a lot of people say they'll carry their rifle "always", but I've tried it just in normal times, and it's darn near impossible to do on an "always" basis. While I can slide my carbine around on my back to do a lot of things, it's just 'in the way' for a lot of things as well; even on the back. Pulling weeds, cutting (castrating) boar hogs, wrestling an uncooperative steer into a stanchion; all things I've never tried with a rifle on me, but can absolutely do with a handgun on me.

As far as gunkid, he never struck me as the patient type; which a stalker in that situation would absolutely have to be, and his bad knees popping would likely give him away anyway. :cool:

Ruble Noon
08-26-2011, 20:56
So lets say that we do have a MAJOR -Straight out of Hollywood- SHTF

Cities have burned to the ground because of riots
10-20% of the population is dead
Millions of people are now nomadic and have to scrounge for food & water on a daily basis
60% of the remaining population is starving
38% of the remaining population is REALLY hungry
2% (like you) prepared and has lots of food and supplies.

Your living in your home, or at your BOL
You have a water source 200 yards away (across the road)
You have a garden, and maybe some chickens/rabbits in the back yard
3-4 people in your home capable of using firearms

So how do you protect yourself when you need to go outdoors:
- to get water
- to tend to the garden
- to feed the chickens/rabbits
- to let the dog out so he can pee

Do you do a 360 check of the area before going out?
Do you go out two at a time (1 to do the task, 1 to watch the other persons back)
Only go out at night?
How do you mitigate your exposure?

Seem to me that it's a catch 22. You NEED to go outside, but by doing so, you place yourself at extreme risk.

What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards :supergrin:

But seriously, if someone observes your home for a few days, it wouldn't be to hard to set up an ambush, and you could find yourself in deep s*** very quickly! I'm not really sure what the right answer is. If you're fortunate enough to have like minded neighbors, I could see setting up some sort of security perimeter. But it seems to me that would take a large number of people.

Ideas? Thoughts?

PS: Regarding the dog. . I have a Yorkie (see avatar) so there is no way that he is going to be an "outside" dog. .

Those that were able would take turns at sentry duty, watching for the watchers.

LongGun1
08-26-2011, 21:05
So how do you protect yourself when you need to go outdoors:
- to get water
- to tend to the garden
- to feed the chickens/rabbits
- to let the dog out so he can pee

Do you do a 360 check of the area before going out?
Do you go out two at a time (1 to do the task, 1 to watch the other persons back)
Only go out at night?
How do you mitigate your exposure?

Ideas? Thoughts?

PS: Regarding the dog. . I have a Yorkie (see avatar) so there is no way that he is going to be an "outside" dog. .


Well...an good outside dog would be invaluable!

Get a local communications network (CB, FRS, PSTN, mil-surp fieldphone, 802.11b/g/n VOIP, etc) going with trusted neighbors.

24/7 manned day/night cameras with pan/tilt/zoom covering 360 degrees of premises..

..combined with remote controlled, powerful IR and/or visible spotlights!


If you have access to good NVD, IR Lasers/IR Illuminators, Night Weapons mounted Scopes, Thermal/FLIR...great!

Suppressed weapons with above....even better! :supergrin:

Long Distance Weapons & ammo (AP/API) capable of defeating light armor, cover or stopping a vehicle with one shot....as in .338 Lapua or .50 BMG.

Suppressed .50 BMG magazine-fed repeater with long distance night optics...even better stilll....:whistling:


A little trick I came up with years ago to improve visibility with NVD in very dark distant areas of the perimeter..

..remove the visible LED from solar powered path lighting..

..and replace them with IR LED! :whistling:

Also...upgrade the rechargeable batteries...or build an PV powered IR Parameter Light from scratch.


If the predators do not have NOD..

..then they will have no idea they are being lit up..

..& if they do...the smart ones should take the IR Parameter Lighting as a warning to find easier pickings!


Seismic Parameter Alarms....Passive IR or IR Laser Parameter Intrusion Detectors, wireless zone parameter alarms, ect


Body Armor IIIa with Level IV front/back/side when going outside for light tasks or to work areas

..or Dragonskin if you can find it...

..under a jacket for camouflage (so headshots will not be on the menu)..

..but actually wearing it while working hard is a serious thermal load on the body.


But yes on being covered with one or more long guns (PSLs are plentiful with my family/friends)

.. & a 360 check while going outside..

..better still if no cover available for a possible assailant to ambush you..

..and video monitoring and/or community security to negate any unpleasant surprises!

Always have a sidearm handy...better still to have an lightweight M4 or something like a very lightweight Carbon-15 (with fast dot optics) on a fast single point sling at the ready.


What I suggested may seem far fetched to most..

..but most assuredly is real SHTF preparation to a select few! ;)

Those of the "rather have it, than need it" frame of mind! :thumbsup:


YMMV

dsa1115
08-26-2011, 21:05
I think you've been watching too many Hollywood movies. But given the backdrop you've described, i.e., getting water, taking the dog out, tending your garden, etc. etc., it would be wise for your primary to be a rifle like an AR or AK, and a pistol as a backup.

AK_Stick
08-26-2011, 21:41
Body Armor IIIa with Level IV front/back/side when going outside for light tasks or to work areas

..or Dragonskin if you can find it...



That is a dangerous recommendation.


Dragonskin has lost its NIJ rating, and should not be considered a capable armor system.

Its been shown to fail when shot with loads well within its threat rating from angles other than straight on, and even the "updated" glue has failed under evaluation by not only the .mil, but various other .gov agencies such as the FBI and DEA.


Its a great idea, but it failed in execution, and anyone who relies upon it to save their lives, is taking a risky proposition, because its no longer a certified ballistic vest, no matter the expiration date on the tag.

kirgi08
08-26-2011, 21:45
:rofl:

LG-1 is the best source of info GT has in the S/P arena.'08.

Bar none/US based that is.

AK_Stick
08-26-2011, 22:05
He's full of info, there is no question or doubt.



But that doesn't make what I said untrue.


Dragon Skin, is not, was not, and never will be the better armor choice. It sold hype, marketed on fear, and did not fair well when it was tested side by side with the current body armor, which was all things considered, pretty badly designed.

kirgi08
08-26-2011, 22:14
post times,youse beat ta the stamp.'08.

AK_Stick
08-26-2011, 22:18
What does that mean?

humanguerrilla
08-26-2011, 22:24
Actually wouldn't be surprised if LG had Dragonskin armor.

I have level IV standalone ceramics in a good fitting rig and some soft armor and they get old real quick. Give me the better mobility instead until there is an immediate threat, fight, or warzone. Agree with lightweight rifle that you really know well and trust with you at all times.

AK_Stick
08-26-2011, 22:38
I really wouldn't be either.

DS, isn't really any more expensive than any of the current top of the line brands. And since its NIJ rating revocation there are literally hundreds of vests on the open market. A quick E-bay search showed 4 sets of armor on the first page.

NkySpike
08-27-2011, 01:38
I'll be fine. My homeowners association fees include a neighborhood watch. :rofl:



LongGun1, I like the way you think... Cool ideal on the IR Leds.




__

TangoFoxtrot
08-27-2011, 05:21
There are a lot of variables, but I'll play anyway. First off you have to move back any objects/barriers that someone could use to close in on you. (Easier if you live in the country). Then you would need to make hardned fighting positions close to your home and hasty fighting positions further out. Set up snares and boobie traps (early warning) on your outer perimeter( try to change it up without being seen). Do roveing patrols (If you have the bodies to do so) Post overnight sentries as well.

jdavionic
08-27-2011, 06:35
Well unfortunately, I don't have any NV equipment...unless you count a camcorder with NV. :supergrin: And I don't own any suppressed firearms, although I know the poor-man's way of improvising with a .22 LR.

So for me, I end up with a dilemma. IMHO and as suggested in my earlier response, organizing with neighbors / family would be the best solution to provide more extensive security. However my neighbors are one extreme or the other. Either they are people that are completely not trustworthy or they are people who could have been cast for the movie Office Space and have likely never shot a gun in their lives.

I have in laws in the immediate area, but again...Office Space candidates...worse yet, not real friendly toward the 2A. They will likely become more of a liability than an asset, which I've had to plan on. I figure they'd be the first ones on my doorstep asking for help.

So while I'd make them earn their keep, I would not be real keen on betting my life on their ability to keep watch on the surroundings. Now perhaps I could always send someone from their family out first to see if the area was safe :supergrin: Deer antlers on their head ...okay, maybe not.

I think varying your routine is essential. If you develop a pattern, you're an easier target.

Using the cover of night and your surroundings would also be better.

I know someone mentioned FAL's idea of having a handgun (however I don't recall the exact context of what he has said in the past...so the assertion may not be accurate). Yea, I would have a handgun AND a long gun (preferably one of my AKs). It would really suck to be in a gun fight where you have a handgun and the person shooting at you is beyond your effective distance but you are well within his.

And at a time like the OP, I'd find mislaid trust to be a potential deadly mistake. ANY stranger on my property would be deemed a threat. Even people in the neighborhood that I know but don't know well would be deemed a threat. When times are tough, you'd be surprised at how quickly those "good" people turn bad.

quake
08-27-2011, 06:49
Fwiw, my post above was with the thought of no available electricity - at least not grid electricity - and not having full-scale replacement power capability to do all the things we now do.

If power was available (grid or self-supplied either one), there are a lot more options for security & chore applications both. One main thing, I'd go MUCH more heavily into illumination fixtures, both IR and visible, around the place. A pump & pipe to eliminate much, if not all, of that 200 yard distance between me & my water. Warming lamps for the chickens. All kinds of things, but things that not only depend on a regular source of power, but depend on having the material (pipe, pumps, lights, etc) on hand; ideally on hand before things went south. Right now, I can bring home that 600' of direct-bury rated water pipe with little hassle and little expense; trying to do that post-shtf could be a very different proposition.

Arvinator
08-27-2011, 09:24
I live on a hill, and have plans made to look out a window in my attic, that will be blocked with large blocks of wood I have cut, backed by sandbags.
A good scoped deer rifle, in my case a .30-06 with a scoped AR for backup will keep people away a good distance. Barbed wire with noise distractions cans/bells/etc. to alert as well as my good old barking dogs.
Strength in numbers and my army surplus plate vest over my 3A soft armor with kevlar helmet will help for any chores. I think if you stop one attacker from several hundred yards away, the rest of that gang will get the picture you are not playing.

Location location location is vital...

lawman800
08-27-2011, 12:24
My backyard is elevated and fenced up but not hard to penetrate. The key is to not be seen though so I got that covered . But chickens are loud and will draw attention.

Always operate in pairs and preferably have the second person elevated to maintain coverage via 360 overwatch.

Dexters
08-27-2011, 15:29
Well...

Watch this and I think you will want to add it to your defenses.
What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUupKOC1bTo

LongGun1
08-27-2011, 16:25
Watch this and I think you will want to add it to your defenses.
What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUupKOC1bTo



Actually...I have a UAV with wireless color video..

..electric powered to get up to altitude..

..then the propellers retract when motor is powered off..

..& becomes a very stealthy sailplane!



But, yes that is a nice toy..

..& I love the music! :supergrin:

Stevekozak
08-27-2011, 16:58
Well, it is not SHTF just yet, so I suggest you find a way to get that water a hell of a lot closer than 200 yards away, by whatever mean is necessary. This is the thing that bothered me most about your scenario. Why, when you are thinking ahead, would you not make sure that your water supply is closer? The rest is fairly easily thought about. Nothing is 100%. Awareness is key. Death comes to those who wait.

Stevekozak
08-27-2011, 17:06
BTW, one of the bravest dogs I have ever met was a Yorkie. Not big enough to battle, but would make a hell of a warning system. My understanding is that they used them during WWII to warn trench troops of infiltrating soldiers, as they were even more hyper sensitive to invaders than the bigger dogs used!!

LongGun1
08-27-2011, 17:26
That is a dangerous recommendation.


Dragonskin has lost its NIJ rating, and should not be considered a capable armor system.

Its been shown to fail when shot with loads well within its threat rating from angles other than straight on, and even the "updated" glue has failed under evaluation by not only the .mil, but various other .gov agencies such as the FBI and DEA.


Its a great idea, but it failed in execution, and anyone who relies upon it to save their lives, is taking a risky proposition, because its no longer a certified ballistic vest, no matter the expiration date on the tag.


Actually...I remember very well the "Hatchet Job" Pinnacle Armor's Dragonskin received in "unbiased testing" (aka sabotage) by military brass trying to save their ***** from Congress in the Body Armor Scandal :whistling:

..and your comments! :upeyes:

According to the news and the congressional inquiry the Army banned Dragon Skin two months BEFORE they tested it...

(though the DS was a favorite of top brass & dignitaries who could afford it)

..& during the sabotage...umm testing ..had multiple catastrophic failures not experienced by soldiers in the field! :whistling:


Lets see....How often does a soldier swim thru a lake of hot oil...or is exposed to steam temperatures that would kill him in minutes (much less the 6 hours DS was exposed to during the .mil testing fiasco)...

..yet the Inteceptor SAPI is so fragile one single drop on the chest while wearing it..

(or simply dropping it on a hard surface)

..can & has shattered it into useless pieces!


Which of the above scenarios is more likely to actually happen in real life..

..& which ones were fabricated explicitly to fail DS & save .mil face?



But the official blacklisting does not change the facts...

I know of an instance where Dragonskin worn by a warfighter received multiple hits in the back from 7.62x39mm API.. :shocked:

.. & IIRC the user did not have so much as bruising..

..nor did he even realize he was hit..

..& more life-saving stories just like this one...

..ones had the users been wearing less capable Interceptor OTV with SAPI they would very likely have been KIA!


The premium prices being commanded for used & rebuilt (with improved adhesive) Dragonskin vests on the open market speaks volumes!


Anyone here want to bet their life that an Interceptor OTV would survive these tests! :rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=XjcVGZtM8UI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaSRIbPWkM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNY1MtsVwG8

kirgi08
08-27-2011, 17:48
Easy my friend.'08.

LongGun1
08-27-2011, 18:00
Actually wouldn't be surprised if LG had Dragonskin armor.

I have level IV standalone ceramics in a good fitting rig and some soft armor and they get old real quick. Give me the better mobility instead until there is an immediate threat, fight, or warzone. Agree with lightweight rifle that you really know well and trust with you at all times.



Hmmm....I just might have something laying around that has a tag with that name! :rofl:


Ditto on a (rather expensive & large) new commercial (upgraded) copy of the Interceptor IIIA with Level 4 standalone multi-hit ceramic front/rear/side SAPI.

And others...


BTW...I do not give recommendations lightly or frivolously..

..& I do my homework before making an investment!

Uncle Sammy does not pay for my toys... :tongueout:

AK_Stick
08-27-2011, 18:03
If you honestly beleive that anyone could take a hit, much less several hits from a 7.62x39mm in the back and not realize he'd been hit you're crazy. I've been inside both a humvee and a stryker armored vehicle while we were engaged by small arms fire from AK's and RPD/K's.

We knew, and that was significantly thicker armor than what the DS offers.

That said, while I don't beleive the US Gov't or any .mil agency sabotaged the Dragon Skin, especially when it failed not only .mil testing, but testing by the FBI, and DEA as well. The biggest damning factor was the NIJ, who is in no way connected with the DOD, revoked their certification, after they suffered numerous first round penetrations by threats they were supposed to stop.

Whats more, when fired at angles other than directly at the plate, several vests suffered penetrations by threats they were rated to protect against.

Secondly, why would the .mil sabotage the DS vests being tested? This has been accused by the owner of Pinnacle, but never proven. Whats more, of all the brands of plates, and different companies who submit stuff for testing, why would DS be singled out? Especially when we were actively working to develop a vest that was better than the interceptor.

Additionally, why did Pinnacle lie to the .mil about their vests being previously NIJ rated? They never were, and under oath, the owner said he had a "verbal agreement to say they were" from the NIJ. Sound fishy?

Thirdly, if DS really did work, why did it completely go away after the scandal? Why did the owner fight so hard to keep his vest from undergoing the established criteria?


When shot from directly infront, yes, DS was incredibly tough. However, the failing glue (which has been demonstrated even with the updated glue) and the poor performance from oblique angles) make it an iffy choice at best. Not to mention, they're no longer certified.


You are however correct that a select few generals and VIPs used DS in 05-06, as I've said before, I moved quite a few of them around, and we had DS vests in our possession we used for VIP movements. (The SOV-2K was approved by the AF as a VIP armor for non combatants like generals, reporters, until the lie was revealed.) And we were ordered to stop using them. At that point, they were all collected, and after that (early 2006) I have never seen DS again in the field, not by Delta, nor Seals, nor Rangers, Force Recon, ODA, US-SS or anyone else, save 11 dyncorp contractors in 2008.

If this stuff was so good, how come it just up and disappeared across the board? Army SF/ODA often buys their own gear, and alot of them run non standard, non .mill accepted or tested gear, yet none seem to have this armor that works so well?

kirgi08
08-27-2011, 18:27
Hmmm....I just might have something laying around that has a tag with that name! :rofl:


Ditto on a (rather expensive & large) new commercial (upgraded) copy of the Interceptor IIIA with Level 4 standalone multi-hit ceramic front/rear/side SAPI.

And others...


BTW...I do not give recommendations lightly or frivolously..

..& I do my homework before making an investment!

Uncle Sammy does not pay for my toys... :tongueout:

I know,thats why I read every thing you post.'08. :cool:

LongGun1
08-27-2011, 18:31
Well unfortunately, I don't have any NV equipment...unless you count a camcorder with NV. :supergrin:


Actually....many years back....in between older generation NV I had remaining from the 1990's ..

(I was an FFL that was also a stocking NVD dealer)

..& what I have now.. :whistling:

I did a good bit of experimentation back then with Sony Camcorders with Nightshot...

..& there was definitely a SHTF usefulness for preppers on a budget.


But now there are very inexpensive (wired & wireless) daylight/night-time (IR) security & web cams that can do a better job of seeing what goes bump in the night!

Setups starting for less than the price of a family meal on the town!

LongGun1
08-27-2011, 19:00
If you honestly beleive that anyone could take a hit, much less several hits from a 7.62x39mm in the back and not realize he'd been hit you're crazy. I've been inside both a humvee and a stryker armored vehicle while we were engaged by small arms fire from AK's and RPD/K's.

We knew, and that was significantly thicker armor than what the DS offers.



http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_060223_Pinnacle,,00.html

By David Crane
Editor, DefenseReview.com

About DefenseReview.com


DefenseReview.com is an online tactical technology/military defense industry magazine designed to keep active U.S. military personnel (including Special Operations), PSD/Security Operators, law enforcement SWAT operators and 1st Responders, security professionals, and civilians informed about the latest developments in cutting-edge military, law enforcement, and security technologies from around the world.


DefenseReview received some interesting information yesterday regarding this NewsHour with Jim Lehrer (PBS) interview of Lt. Col. Roger Charles (Ret.) and Lt. Col. Robert Maginnis (Ret.) conducted by Margaret Warner on Pinnacle Armor SOV Flexible Body Armor/Dragon Skin vs. the Interceptor Multi-Threat Body Armor System Outer Tactical Vest (OTV), a.k.a. Interceptor Body Armor. As many of our readers are probably aware, DefenseReview has published a number of articles on SOV/Dragon Skin. We first started writing about Dragon Skin body armor in October 2001. We followed that original blurb up with a more in-depth article on May 27, 2004.

Our most recent article on Pinnacle Armor SOV/Dragon Skin reported on an actual save made by a Dragon Skin against three 7.62x39mm API (armor-piercing incendiary) round hits. The vest's wearer was PSD operator (Security Operator) employed by DynCorp International, and when he got hit (during an ambush that turned into a firefight) he didn't even feel the bullet impacts. That particular article is titled, appropriately enough, Flexible Body Armor Saves PSD/Security Operator from 7.62x39mm API Round Hits.



And......


Lt. Col. Maginnis' (Ret.) statements were challenged by Lt. Col. Roger Charles (Ret.) (Pinnacle Armor SOV/Dragon Skin flexible body armor proponent), who said "[on Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin body armor] This will not only will take that hit but will take multiple hits and the ceramic plate used in Interceptor, one of the complaints from the troops in the field was that too often after one round impact, then you had a bunch of gravel basically inside the pouch.". Lt. Col. Charles (Ret.) went on to say, "[on Dragon Skin] There was an unsolicited letter from an American contractor over there who was shot eight times in the back wearing one of these that he purchased for his own use. And he did not know he had been shot until he got back and took it off and saw the bullet perforations in the canvas cover. There was no soft tissue damage so it's proven in the field that it can take multiple hits and still provide protection."



Well...that pretty well sums up exactly what I said..

..as well as solidly disproves your argument.


I feel no need hijacking this thread further..

..in an attempt to explain what I know to be true! :whistling:


If you will do unbiased research on your other "talking points"..

..you may understand just how deep this (military-industrial-political complex) rabbit hole goes!


Too many good Americans have bled red to their last drop down that stinking corrupt hole! :steamed:


Personally...I like the way the Swiss approach on the issue of weapons & gear for their citizen soldiers! :thumbsup:

AK_Stick
08-27-2011, 19:12
And we all know that noting written, especially by one with a vested interest in making DS look good, is ever drummed up to make it appear better than it really is.

Isn't that the exact same news rag that published a story about the USMC buying 10,000 glock 37's in 357 sig to replace the M9? (Yes it is.....)

However, it doesn't explain why the NIJ revoked their rating, nor why they failed to stop rated threats in oblique angles, why they lied about having NIJ certification in order to get a .mil contract.




For a guy who "does his homework" you failed this class LG.

AK_Stick
08-27-2011, 19:25
Here is some very good reading on the Pinnacle debacle


http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14526&page=1


However, if you decide to join, and post, watch yourself, its a very different board.


Good read with pictures of the initial DS failure, and the testing protocol that all US approved vests must make it through, though note this is the E-sapi protocol, and we're currently at least one generation further than when this test went on.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf

poodleshooter1
08-27-2011, 19:48
AK_Stick, what exactly is your MOS?

The reason I ask is because it seems to change from one thread to another depending on the argument. One day you are a helicopter mechanic in the National Guard making 90K a year, the next you are in the infantry engaging the Taliban.

AK_Stick
08-27-2011, 19:52
I'm a 15T, Blackhawk Crewchief.

AK_Stick
08-27-2011, 20:05
No no, I am, and always have been a 15T Blackhawk Helicopter mechanic.

However, my job is not quite as simple. I do all the maintenance/service for the UH-60, including, should the airframe be shot down/crashed etc, go recover it, fix it and fly it home, load it on a truck and tow it home, air lift it, or if recovery is impossible, to blow it in place, or call in an airstrike to destroy it. Thats known as DART or (Downed Aircraft Recovery Team) In 05-07 I was a team member, and in 08-now I have taken over the job as a Team Leader. As such, I've spent more of my time on the ground outside the wire than I have in the air.

I have in the past, had to go recover aircraft that were shot down, and aircraft that PL'd and who's airframe recovery was contested.

I am not in the infantry, nor will I ever be, not my calling in life.

inzone
08-27-2011, 20:06
I suppose you could set up a little pipeline to get to the water, or you could rig up a push wagon that could haul several hundred gallons at a time and just go get the water at night with a little group and overwatch with weapons... in our spot we have a big swimming pool and also about a dozen large drums which fill from a water cachement or can be filled from the tap.... but it isnt just water, eventually just about everybody will have to go out to get firewood or hunt for small game, etc..... so the issue will always be OPSEC and counter-sniper..... so having a remote OP/LP setup that is completely hidden for overwatch is a good idea... small patrols and sweeps and setting up hidden ambush positions is really necessary to insure you arent being surveilled....

Arc Angel
08-27-2011, 20:17
...... So how do you protect yourself when you need to go outdoors:

- to get water
- to tend to the garden
- to feed the chickens/rabbits
- to let the dog out so he can pee

There's a farm pond about 100 yards away from our home. The pasture between us and that pond is spotted with heavy brush cover. An experienced hunter could easily move back and forth between house and pond without exposing himself to a clear shot for more than a moment or two.

We don't have a garden. Instead, years ago, I seeded the woods with wild edibles that are familiar to me; but, many city dwellers (or, today's typical high schoolers) wouldn't recognize as food.

No chickens. The only rabbits are wild; but, there is a barn and small pig pen across the road from the house and about 150 yards away. It's certainly possible for someone to set up on one of the field perimeters to ambush a family member; but, unless his nickname is, 'Gunny', he wouldn't be able to get close; he'd have to wait for a clean shot; and he'd have to be a good rifleman, too.

Do you do a 360 check of the area before going out?

This remark, more than anything else you've asked, bothers me the most. I have the impression you're highly reactive. I look at things a different way. It's not me who has to worry about moving around this farm, it's anyone who trespasses, here.

I'm the biggest meanest Mo-Fo around here. (Well, actually, I'm in a contest with several of the neighbors for this honor!) ;) It's not the other guy's gun that's the greatest threat - It's mine!

Do you go out two at a time (1 to do the task, 1 to watch the other persons back) Only go out at night? How do you mitigate your exposure?

If we were to go out, 'two at a time' one of us would tail the other and move around a lot less. I'm going to suggest that going out only at night is a form of suicide. In order to stay alive you've got to do a number of things differently:

One is to set up a perimeter around your, 'area of influence' and then actively defend it. Two is exactly the opposite of what you're presently struggling with. It is impossible to successfully defend your home IF you spend all of your time borrowed inside of it.

Finally, how do you mitigate your exposure? Well, as FerFAL has taught all of us, the best way to mitigate your exposure is to form an active alliance with your neighbors. You help them; you go to their rescue; and they help you, and come to your rescue. Any attempted property surveillance in this neighborhood wouldn't go unnoticed for more than an hour and, probably, a lot less time.

One all-important criterion you've failed to mention is the necessity for, both, forethought AND planning. Here's what I mean: You are asking these questions retroactively. I did the same thing, too; except I did it BEFORE we moved in.

Seem to me that it's a catch 22. You NEED to go outside, but by doing so, you place yourself at extreme risk. What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards

Yup! Nothing is 100%. If he were patient and willing to wait, a skilled operator wearing a ghillie suit and carrying a decent centerfire rifle might, indeed, take his target out. The risk of being successfully ambushed (or sniped) is never going to be zero. This is the principal reason, 'Why' I've suggested an active rather than a reactive approach to your home self-defense.

But seriously, if someone observes your home for a few days, it wouldn't be to hard to set up an ambush, and you could find yourself in deep s*** very quickly!

I'm not really sure what the right answer is. If you're fortunate enough to have like minded neighbors, I could see setting up some sort of security perimeter. But it seems to me that would take a large number of people.

Ideas? Thoughts?

Observing our home for a few hours, let alone a few days, would be all but impossible for any except a highly skilled operator. Yes, I know this could be done; and I, also, know how to do it, too. (This is where I live!) As for a random member(s) of the, 'starving huddled masses' successfully surveilling any property around here? No, that's not going to happen.

My next door neighbor keeps a herd of prized beef cattle and buffaloes. In the past, occasional nighttime visitors have been a problem; but, not one that hasn't been successfully dealt with before.

PS: Regarding the dog. . I have a Yorkie (see avatar) so there is no way that he is going to be an "outside" dog.

OK, again, according to FerFAL: the perfect canine home security force includes one small yapper, (alarm dog) and one large grinder (attack dog). We have both.

Additionally, we've got something even better! Several years ago we found a starving, vermin-infested, and almost dead, small gray tiger-strip DSH cat in the side lot. We took him in and spent the cost of a couple of Glocks on resuscitating him.

Well, he grew up to be a very large Tomcat who absolutely positively hates the entire human race EXCEPT for my wife and me. His senses are uncanny! The moment he starts to hiss, or lets out one of his low growls, we know someone (or, on occasion, something) is approaching the house.

So far, a lot of things have been mentioned in this thread. I keep on waiting for someone to say something about booby traps. (They work, too, ya know!)

Good luck to you! :)

AK_Stick
08-27-2011, 20:21
Well, he grew up to be a very large Tomcat who absolutely positively hates the entire rest of the human race EXCEPT for my wife and me. His senses are uncanny! The moment he starts to hiss, or lets out one of his low growls, we know someone (or, on occasion, something) is approaching the house.

So far, a lot of things have been mentioned in this thread. I keep on waiting for someone to say something about booby traps. (They work, too, ya know!)




Isn't a large angry tomcat in the dark a perfectly good booby trap? We had a barn cat on the property for years, and me and him had more than a few run ins in the dark back of a barn that made me retreat.




For signaling/identification, the glow stick, non pyrotechnic trip flare, is very cheap, easy to site and use, and if you're of a more "angry" mind set, modify :supergrin:

Arc Angel
08-27-2011, 20:52
Isn't a large angry tomcat in the dark a perfectly good booby trap? We had a barn cat on the property for years, and me and him had more than a few run ins in the dark back of a barn that made me retreat.

Well, I've no doubt, 'Tweed' would do some serious damage to anyone who made my wife scream!


For signaling/identification, the glow stick, non pyrotechnic trip flare, is very cheap, easy to site and use, and if you're of a more "angry" mind set, modify.

Yes, I was reluctant to say it; but, indeed, that's one of the easiest-to-use alarm setups I know of. So is one of these wireless battery-powered transmitters that can be set up and used as outdoor drive and walkway alarms. ;)

emt1581
08-27-2011, 23:53
I've started a few threads on snipers. Unless you have thermal vision/IR and can nail them from inside or do not go outside, eventually, you're toast. Do all the 360's, buddy systems, cameras you want...if one is dedicated enough you won't defeat them. You have to succeed 100% of the time...they need to succeed once.

That said, during and depending on the SHTF, it would take far more energy and time to penetrate someone's defenses that took the time and spent the money ahead of time to be worth it.

I know you can only go a few days without water so if I can see you, but for some reason, not shoot you....which would be bizarre considering I have a .50BMG...I'll just wait you out and win by attrition. Given that I am surrounded by a treeline, I'd probably just go around and approach them from behind.

Long term, as I said, I think it's a losing battle. Just look at the White House. Secret Service has every defensive and offensive toy short of nukes and they still have nutjobs trying to crash planes into the WH and running up and shooting with an AK. When Bush was overseas, someone even chucked a live grenade next to his podium but the pin/spoon never came loose.

I guess the main thing would be not to stand out, or as soooo many love to spew whenever a tough situation is proposed....don't be there in the first place... :puking:

-Emt1581

LongGun1
08-28-2011, 06:58
For signaling/identification, the glow stick, non pyrotechnic trip flare, is very cheap, easy to site and use, and if you're of a more "angry" mind set, modify :supergrin:


Yep....have some of these in storage as well...(since the early 1990s)

..with IR & visible glowsticks.


Low tech, but reliable...

..main issue is they have to be relamped after each use..

In actual use ...frequently were tripped by deer & other large animals..

..but in a survival situation..

..those incidents can be welcome & tasty! :supergrin:


And yes..they can be modified..

..but better employed for their designed purpose..IMO

FerFAL
08-28-2011, 10:20
So lets say that we do have a MAJOR -Straight out of Hollywood- SHTF

Cities have burned to the ground because of riots
10-20% of the population is dead
Millions of people are now nomadic and have to scrounge for food & water on a daily basis
60% of the remaining population is starving
38% of the remaining population is REALLY hungry
2% (like you) prepared and has lots of food and supplies.

Your living in your home, or at your BOL
You have a water source 200 yards away (across the road)
You have a garden, and maybe some chickens/rabbits in the back yard
3-4 people in your home capable of using firearms

So how do you protect yourself when you need to go outdoors:
- to get water
- to tend to the garden
- to feed the chickens/rabbits
- to let the dog out so he can pee

Do you do a 360 check of the area before going out?
Do you go out two at a time (1 to do the task, 1 to watch the other persons back)
Only go out at night?
How do you mitigate your exposure?

Seem to me that it's a catch 22. You NEED to go outside, but by doing so, you place yourself at extreme risk.

What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards :supergrin:

But seriously, if someone observes your home for a few days, it wouldn't be to hard to set up an ambush, and you could find yourself in deep s*** very quickly! I'm not really sure what the right answer is. If you're fortunate enough to have like minded neighbors, I could see setting up some sort of security perimeter. But it seems to me that would take a large number of people.

Ideas? Thoughts?

PS: Regarding the dog. . I have a Yorkie (see avatar) so there is no way that he is going to be an "outside" dog. .


The situation you descirbe is hopeless. There's no chance in hell you'll survive on your own (or a few families trying to get by together) with 60% of the country starving, cities destroyed, and very high crime and violence. You wil not make it no matter what guns you have, no matter waht dogs you have, no matter if your three best buddies move in with you to help out.
Sooner much rather than later criminals will notice you and take you down. Being on your own is already hard and dangerous in current high crime countires, and end of the world scenario like the one you describe is even worse. You have no chance at all.




Seriously, nobody is going to patiently wait for me for days and nights at a time. I'm just another locked building.

They do, they wait for days, drive around, check you and your family out. That's what they do. Have you seen the movie "300"? At one point king Leonidas asks the Acadians "what is your profession?" They are potters, blacksmiths, etc. Then he turns and asks his men what is their profession, they all simultaneously cry out "war!". These guys, their proffesion is doing just that, gather intelligence and take out people like you and me. They will patiently wait as long as they feel its needed. About looking like "another locked building" That's even worse! If I'm a criminal an empty locked building is exactly what Id consider an easy target full of potential loot. I'd hit that one before bothering with buildings that show signs of being inhabited.

If was a true SHTF, I would be at my grandfathers place. Its on a hill, only houses around are all family. The garden is between my uncles and gramps place. Only way in is past my other uncles house a mile befor us.
A friend of mine was shocked by how easily they took control of his farm during a home invasion. Thy will move to the first building, take your uncle hostage, then move to the next and so on. Before you know it they have the entire place unless you're a) willing to shoot through your loved ones b) you even noticed them closing in on you in the first place, which is very unlikely. The dogs (he had several) were dealt with, no problem. My friend was SHOCKED by how fast and easily they took over the farm. He thought that having some people, dogs and being in an isolated location made it safe. He was wrong. On the good side no one was seriously hurt, they just stole everything of value, especially his guns.

Families in the Old West used do something called "Doubling Up". Two or more families would all go to one ranch or one farm in times of trouble(think Indian attack). This strategy would work well and relieve the security aspect for just one or two people.

We may be facing a modern Indian attack(not real American Indians(Native Americans) of course, more like criminal bandits). The more firepower you have the better, the more sets of eyes the better...etc.
Those families that doubled up, they too were easy targerts unless they had a good amount of people. The more people the safer the community became, safety in numbers. That's the origin of cities.

In such extreme cases the only hope is a large enough closed community, with a double perimeter, lots of guards and enough financial resources to support it.

FerFAL

kirgi08
08-28-2011, 10:40
Well stated FerFal.'08.

arabianights
08-28-2011, 10:41
if TSHTF, i wouldn't be surprised in the first year or two, this whole country would turn into a big coliseum full of gladiators, no one would know for sure whether he/she can survive

lawman800
08-28-2011, 11:13
Very true, without a coordinated and large area security team down pat, there is no long term hope.

FerFAL
08-28-2011, 11:34
If it gets that bad the only sane survival strategy is to move away to another country. People die like flies when things are that bad.
FerFAL

Dexters
08-28-2011, 11:43
if TSHTF, i wouldn't be surprised in the first year or two, this whole country would turn into a big coliseum full of gladiators, no one would know for sure whether he/she can survive

Year or two! try 6 months max
Die off sequence
those on life supporting machines
those on life supporting medications
accidental deaths that normally would not be deadly
crime
fire
cold
heat
hurricanes etc
depression
poor sanitary conditions (more people will probably die from not washing their hands after wiping their butt than will be shot.)
infections
disease - e.g. flu
animal attack - e.g. dogs
insect spread diseases
mistakes - e.g. killing a friendly in error
lack of medical staff - e.g. child birth complications
lack of water
lack of food

Broomcornsuncle
08-28-2011, 18:27
Civilian and newbie here. Trying to sort through the codes and other assorted military references. But it is simply my pleasure. Anyway, I was watching the History Chan other night and they were running the Secrets of the Secret Service, which I think puts our agents and politicians at risk.

Nevertheless, they cited Miguel Caballero and his Personal Protections Solution Company. He creates civilian attire, suits and the like, that are bulletproof. His employees, and tourists too, actually are shot by him at point -blank range to show how effective his product is. HC showed him demonstrating that during the show. HC also disclosed politicans use them frequently, including the POTUS, who was rumored to be wearing one during his inauguration. Was wondering if anyone has ever heard of him or his product.

emt1581
08-28-2011, 18:34
Civilian and newbie here. Trying to sort through the codes and other assorted military references. But it is simply my pleasure. Anyway, I was watching the History Chan other night and they were running the Secrets of the Secret Service, which I think puts our agents and politicians at risk.

Nevertheless, they cited Miguel Caballero and his Personal Protections Solution Company. He creates civilian attire, suits and the like, that are bulletproof. His employees, and tourists too, actually are shot by him at point -blank range to show how effective his product is. HC showed him demonstrating that during the show. HC also disclosed politicans use them frequently, including the POTUS, who was rumored to be wearing one during his inauguration. Was wondering if anyone has ever heard of him or his product.

I saw that. Also where I saw more factual data from the grenade incident...which I already knew took place.

I couldn't help thinking... what kind of trauma would result even if the clothing did stop a bullet?? I mean it looked pretty flimsy.

It'd be cool to own an article of such clothing just to have it IMO.

-Emt1581

Steff1
08-29-2011, 06:10
I've started a few threads on snipers. Unless you have thermal vision/IR and can nail them from inside or do not go outside, eventually, you're toast. Do all the 360's, buddy systems, cameras you want...if one is dedicated enough you won't defeat them. You have to succeed 100% of the time...they need to succeed once. emt1581

How long do think you can do this before someone takes YOU out ?

emt1581
08-29-2011, 15:55
I've started a few threads on snipers. Unless you have thermal vision/IR and can nail them from inside or do not go outside, eventually, you're toast. Do all the 360's, buddy systems, cameras you want...if one is dedicated enough you won't defeat them. You have to succeed 100% of the time...they need to succeed once. emt1581

How long do think you can do this before someone takes YOU out ?

I don't know. Find a retired military sniper and ask them how long they worked for...

-Emt1581

racerford
08-29-2011, 16:11
I don't know. Find a retired military sniper and ask them how long they worked for...

-Emt1581

A sniper support by the US Army, Air Force and navy has a different survivability than an independat operator. They high tech and and high power extractiuon capabilities. They have potential access to sattelite and drone surveillance before and maybe even during actions, and near infinite budgets. After the SHTF, that will not be the case for an independent operator or a scout for rogue group.

The circumstances are just not the same.

inzone
08-29-2011, 16:40
small groups, lots of dogs...especially mutts that run the property and range.... patrols and constantly variable OP/LP work...... tripwires.... using barbed wire, concertina wire to set up protective zones, channel intruders..... don't forget well camouflaged tree stands ,etc.... I doubt we will be dealing with elite sniper teams in a teotwaki scenario.... I think small groups are the key..... you still might get overrun but at least you will have a fighting chance.....a small group with semi-automatic weapons with elevation, good fields of fire and cover and concealment has about a 6:1 advantage over an attacking force....

emt1581
08-29-2011, 17:57
A sniper support by the US Army, Air Force and navy has a different survivability than an independat operator. They high tech and and high power extractiuon capabilities. They have potential access to sattelite and drone surveillance before and maybe even during actions, and near infinite budgets. After the SHTF, that will not be the case for an independent operator or a scout for rogue group.

The circumstances are just not the same.

You make it sound like a sniper by him/her self with a rifle is useless without that "infinite budget's" worth of equipment, technology, etc.

What ever happened to "one shot, one kill"? :dunno:

-Emt1581

arabianights
08-29-2011, 18:37
i tend to believe that in a post-apocalyptic world, those with a physical fit body and a strong immunization system are the ones most likely to survive

all other preps are marginal at the most

wjv
08-29-2011, 21:10
Well, it is not SHTF just yet, so I suggest you find a way to get that water a hell of a lot closer than 200 yards away, by whatever mean is necessary. This is the thing that bothered me most about your scenario. Why, when you are thinking ahead, would you not make sure that your water supply is closer?

Because it's a lake. .

Lakes are kind of hard to move. .

Especially when the lake is not on your property.

racerford
08-29-2011, 23:42
You make it sound like a sniper by him/her self with a rifle is useless without that "infinite budget's" worth of equipment, technology, etc.

What ever happened to "one shot, one kill"? :dunno:

-Emt1581

Not useless, but all of that infinite budget greatly enhances long term survivability, hence the ability to be retired for the military (20 years in).

You make it sound as if they are invisible and invincible, they are not.

To be able to take an aimed shot at an enemy greatly enhances the shots fired to kill ratio. Most soldiers do not take aimed fire in combat. The small arms fire to casualty ratio in Vietnam was like 20,000 rounds per kill. I have heard as many as 100,000 rounds per kill in the latest conflicts. It is hard to look threw a sight/scope and pull the trigger on a human. It is really hard to do with incoming fire. While I have never been in combat, I do understand the concept.

I do know how to get a sniper out of a field of tall grass that is upwind of me(his most likely location). Set it on fire, it is a risk I am willing to take as I am dead if he stays there and continues to kill us one at a time. Even the best sniper is not fire proof.

Where I live, for half the year, I know what they call a man lying in the field for two days waiting for the shot. Dead. That is what two days of lying in the sun without shade will get you here. You can't carry enough water, and there isn't any surface water that is not visible to everyone for a long way from it and no trees.

The reality is that there are better places to go to get what anyone wants than where I am. Population density high enough that it is not a single house on the prarie, and low enough that it does not provide fertile pickings. Why bother?

quake
08-30-2011, 06:03
Because it's a lake. .

Lakes are kind of hard to move. .

Especially when the lake is not on your property.

Any way to tap into it serruptitiously? (I have no idea how to spell that word)

Likely be a huge pain & possibly not feasible, but it might be worth looking into.

inzone
08-31-2011, 18:34
I was wondering if hardening up vehicles might be a counter-sniper tactic....having several 4wd vehicles or high ground clearance pickup trucks, etc....working in teams and patrolling.....you can use sandbags and bolt in some metal -plates for added protection.....thoughts?

kirgi08
08-31-2011, 23:51
I was wondering if hardening up vehicles might be a counter-sniper tactic....having several 4wd vehicles or high ground clearance pickup trucks, etc....working in teams and patrolling.....you can use sandbags and bolt in some metal -plates for added protection.....thoughts?

Lots of logistics/supply concerns with that.'08.

jdavionic
09-01-2011, 03:57
I was wondering if hardening up vehicles might be a counter-sniper tactic....having several 4wd vehicles or high ground clearance pickup trucks, etc....working in teams and patrolling.....you can use sandbags and bolt in some metal -plates for added protection.....thoughts?

Unless you had bulletproof glass, I don't see this being a good idea. If you're out patrolling, it obviously means you want to be looking around. To see, you expose your head - whether you're looking through the windshield, out a side window, out the bed of the truck, etc. So just reinforcing the metal parts will not be a guarantee of safety. It would certainly help give you cover after the first shot(s). However it becomes a matter of how accurate those first shots are.

Personally, I'd rather set up a parameter around the neighborhood and have people work in shifts to guard it, versus sending out people on patrols. That just seems like a good way to invite trouble to either follow you back or try to take you out on patrol.

cowboy1964
09-01-2011, 12:13
A commercial armored vehicle would be the best bet, but I would say few of us have spent the $250,000 or more on one of those.

Captain Boogie
09-07-2011, 08:34
I was wondering if hardening up vehicles might be a counter-sniper tactic....having several 4wd vehicles or high ground clearance pickup trucks, etc....working in teams and patrolling.....you can use sandbags and bolt in some metal -plates for added protection.....thoughts?

The problem with armored vehicles, or any vehicle, is that you give up your ability to see and hear the area around you. Now, if there was a known sniper, and you had a fix on his location, then having armored vehicles capable of keeping the sniper pinned while dismounts move in for the finish would be great. The three F's are a good technique.

But, if you just have trucks driving around looking for bad guys, you will deter some, but miss a lot of what's going on. You may even get your armored truck blown up.

As already stated, in the given scenario, you are doomed. Even two families would not be enough. Think of the labor required to run a small farm or homestead. Add in other tasks, like cleaning, laundry, etc. Then take 50% of your manpower for security. Pretty soon everyone is walking like zombies (don't shoot them by mistake!) and everything suffers. Sleep is good.

I have some limited experience in situations involving establishing local security, and it's tough, it takes a lot of folks, and it's never perfect.

To those who say always have a rifle, I say try slinging your rifle on your back and do all your normal outdoor tasks - mow the grass, trim bushes, clear weeds out of the garden, shovel dirt, clean the gutters, change your oil, feed the animals, trim hooves, fix the weed eater, install rain barrels, paint the house, replace the roof, etc. Then see how you feel.

Of course, we could just all fall under the patronage of wealthy warlords, change into our leather pants and shoulder pads, and start calling LG "The Humongous."

LongGun1
09-07-2011, 12:03
As already stated, in the given scenario, you are doomed. Even two families would not be enough. Think of the labor required to run a small farm or homestead. Add in other tasks, like cleaning, laundry, etc. Then take 50% of your manpower for security. Pretty soon everyone is walking like zombies (don't shoot them by mistake!) and everything suffers. Sleep is good.

I have some limited experience in situations involving establishing local security, and it's tough, it takes a lot of folks, and it's never perfect.




1st....Good observations & advice! :thumbsup:



Which is a good reason to establish comms & security protocols with your neighbors & community.

Like the B-17s of WWII...alone they would be picked off by the Hunns..

.. like wolves attacking lone sheep separated from the herd..

..but combined enmasse with interlocking fields of fire..

..not so easy or safe for the attackers! :whistling:






To those who say always have a rifle, I say try slinging your rifle on your back and do all your normal outdoor tasks - mow the grass, trim bushes, clear weeds out of the garden, shovel dirt, clean the gutters, change your oil, feed the animals, trim hooves, fix the weed eater, install rain barrels, paint the house, replace the roof, etc. Then see how you feel.

Another reason I am in favor of lightweight carbines..

(and a well designed sling allowing quick deployment from secured carry)

..with at least enough lightweight carbines to equip those needing this capability.


A Carbon-15 (approx 5lbs with fast optics..or a very lightweight M4) ..

..on a Chalker (single point sling) with a velcro barrel strap to secure movement..

..I hardly notice it is there...even after a day of heavy exertion.


With a heavier gun...big difference!!


Back country property exploration (bear & pot grower threats) during summer while toting a long gun, wearing a pack & hacking a path thru heavy brush while climbing taught me this lesson back in the 1990's.

The heavier long guns became waaay more heavy & unwieldy as the day went on!


In short...lightweight gun can be worn 24/7 like it is a part of you..

..heavy gun saps strength, bangs into body parts & finally becomes enough of a nuisance..

..you set it down & go about your business..

..now separated from your long gun! :shocked:


When predator's observe that..

..could be just the opportunity they are looking for to make their move..

..and likely a fatal mistake on your part.


And yes..while you likely still have a pistol on your person..

..with it alone you have nowhere near the capability of a lightweight, high capacity long gun with fast optics..

..especially considering the element of surprise combined with the numeric disparity of your attackers!




YMMV



Of course, we could just all fall under the patronage of wealthy warlords, change into our leather pants and shoulder pads, and start calling LG "The Humongous."


Sasquatch, Bigfoot, Lurch, now "The Humongous"..

..another day...another nickname! :whistling: :rofl:


(That being said & being Humongous...

..I just might forget the fuel...

..as Virginia Hey was a Smoking Nordic Hottie!! :banana: )

FireForged
09-07-2011, 17:49
If I really thought someone was going to get at me I would only go out at random times during the night and certainly not every night.

LongGun1
09-07-2011, 19:28
If I really thought someone was going to get at me I would only go out at random times during the night and certainly not every night.


I will add a different spin on that...

During a Major SHTF/TEOTWAWKI & lacking an effective LEO response..

If I suspected someone or some group outside was using the cover of darkness to commit nefarious, antisocial and/or violent acts towards myself, my family, my property or the community at large..

..then after doing our homework..

..we would go out at random times during the night until the issue was resolved.


Nah...the above sounds really improbable! :upeyes:

Hey, I could be a 5' 6" 360lb Keyboard Commando that rarely leaves my computer except to perform bodily functions & only has only fired an airsoft..

..once.. :tongueout:

..and my previous post is utter internet gun forum bravado BS!! :embarassed:


Either that..

..or I am really a 6' 7" 295 lb Sasquatch looking male that just got back from the range after sighting in IR lasers, IR illuminators & day/night fast optics while using night vision on a couple of suppressed weapons out to 200m..

..and .22LR at that!


The latter is sooo improbable the likelihood it is really the former! :supergrin:

Besides everyone (except Gunkid) knows you cannot hit with a .22lr that far..

..especially at night! :whistling:



Seriously though & IMO..

..the best SHTF plan for 2 & 4 legged predators..

..is the one that envisions your community without them..

..and without mercy or political correctness..

..single mindedly works rapidly toward that goal!


It is the only way to be sure!

kirgi08
09-07-2011, 19:59
:alien:

Lt Scott 14
09-07-2011, 23:49
Minimum 2 person search team. 1 on point, 1 on back guard. Try to blend in, military look could be bad. NV may be best tool, if available. AR/AK good rifles, Rem 870s, Moss 500/590s, good shottys, extra ammo is heavy. 9mm/40 style semi autos w/hi cap mags, and quiet carrying gear for any. Concealed may be beat option.
While we have a small farm(rural), carrying a holstered handgun does not bring any extra attention, slinging a shotty, shell belt,(outside of hunting season), AK/AR might summon local law enforcement. If none, be cautious.
Hunting camo is real common, black swat BDUs would stick out as far as clothing goes.
Carhardt and work clothes are a blend in without attention. No gun patches, NRA, on your hats or vests outside the perimeter. Look around on your next grocery trip, more people are armed lately. See if you can observe the gun printing on the clothes, or the guys patting it to make sure its still there!

Captain Boogie
09-08-2011, 06:47
Just walk away.

http://www.videohippy.com/video/123012/The-Lord-Humungus-Speech

fourdeuce2
09-08-2011, 11:15
"What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards"

I wouldn't worry about Gunkid if he was at 6 yards. :rofl:
He'd probably shoot himself in the foot AGAIN.:crying:

fourdeuce2
09-08-2011, 11:23
"Where I live, for half the year, I know what they call a man lying in the field for two days waiting for the shot. Dead. That is what two days of lying in the sun without shade will get you here."

Just because there aren't any trees doesn't mean there's no shade. Years ago I was sent on a detail as a target for a Target Acquisition Range. We had a couple of hours to camouflage ourselves and hide on the range. It was in the foothills of Colorado, and there were no trees anywhere near the range. When we first got to the range, we looked around and saw that it looked as level as a pool table(and about as easy to hide on), but after a few hours of preparing, we all managed to hide well enough so the students couldn't spot us until we moved. Even short grasses and brush can work for camouflage, and you often don't even notice small depressions in the ground in "open" areas. Getting out and walking the area will reveal many places to hide that are hard to spot from the other side.
I'm not saying a sniper is invisible or invincible, either, but if they know what they are doing(NOT like Gunkid) and want to get you bad enough, they have a good shot at you.

LongGun1
09-08-2011, 13:56
"What if John Melvin Davis (Aka GunKid) is waiting to ambush you with his suppressed .22 at 600 yards"

I wouldn't worry about Gunkid if he was at 6 yards. :rofl:
He'd probably shoot himself in the foot AGAIN.:crying:


Given his temperament...

..maybe a good thing he cannot stay of prison long enough to practice! :whistling:

inzone
09-08-2011, 16:06
if shtf, i imagine there will be plenty of dogs that are hungry and are looking for a home.....what about taking in a bunch of them and using them to flush out any snipers or prowlers sneaking up to check out your AO?

racerford
09-08-2011, 22:42
"Where I live, for half the year, I know what they call a man lying in the field for two days waiting for the shot. Dead. That is what two days of lying in the sun without shade will get you here."

Just because there aren't any trees doesn't mean there's no shade. Years ago I was sent on a detail as a target for a Target Acquisition Range. We had a couple of hours to camouflage ourselves and hide on the range. It was in the foothills of Colorado, and there were no trees anywhere near the range. When we first got to the range, we looked around and saw that it looked as level as a pool table(and about as easy to hide on), but after a few hours of preparing, we all managed to hide well enough so the students couldn't spot us until we moved. Even short grasses and brush can work for camouflage, and you often don't even notice small depressions in the ground in "open" areas. Getting out and walking the area will reveal many places to hide that are hard to spot from the other side.
I'm not saying a sniper is invisible or invincible, either, but if they know what they are doing(NOT like Gunkid) and want to get you bad enough, they have a good shot at you.

I don't deny the merit of what you say. I would not want a trained military sniper hunting me. I will have to get my 6 year to lay in various spots around to see if I can spot him. He will think it is a cool spy game. We do have clay soils here and it has been so hot and dry that the cracks in the ground may just be large enough for a small man to fit inside:wow: Mostly the grass is about 3" and there are no privacy fences. You could be right about small hollows. There are culverts, but none over 8" within about 400 yards. and the ones beyond that I don't think have line of sight to my house or anything beyond the front corner of the property.

I think it is a low probability scenario within a low probability scenario. There are some many easier and more efficiently productive areas to hit first. It is something to fill idle time thinking about.

inzone
09-10-2011, 09:59
I have been doing some reading from my anceint army field manuals and materials, old fashioned walls and tall fences also go a long way in defeating snipers.....close in to your home or defensive position you can also plant high growing shrubs and a treeline.......I am studying the more current situation in the balkans with serejevo and yugoslavia, etc. where snipers caused a lot of casualties..... ironically, compact urban areas have some utility here in providing cover and concealment......although Stalingrad is a good example of the use of snipers also..... you can also use old fashioned sand bags or even plastic garbage bags doubled or tripled up filled with sand, dirt, etc to create cover and concealment.....