Can off duty cops carry inside of a school? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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BailRecoveryAgent
08-29-2011, 12:32
I know they can when on duty, but I just wasn't sure if cops are allowed to carry off duty in places that are illegal for civilians to carry in.:dunno:

This isn't a troll thread or meant to spark any debate as to why cops can carry where some people can't, I'm just looking for clarification.

Thanks

DaBigBR
08-29-2011, 12:40
My money says that it may vary by state.

Rabbit994
08-29-2011, 13:22
Virginia, any law enforcement officer (including out of state) on or off duty.
Virginia Code: 18.2-308 and 18.2-308.1

Patchman
08-29-2011, 13:26
Definitely would vary by state.

You should begin by looking at the section of law that prohibits carrying at schools and see if there are any exceptions specifically stated in the law. Then look at the section of law granting LEO their authority, and see if it says something like "statute X must specifically prohibit off-duty carrying by LEOs..." Most if not all laws only prohibit. So if they're silent on something, it's allowed.

If you're an out-of-state LEO, definitely controlled by LEOSA (you're the same as the local CCWer).

For in-state LEOs, probably may even vary by agency. If you're within your jurisdiction, and the agency considers you to be on-duty 24/7, you should be good.

If you're outside your jurisdiction... or if your agency considers you "off-duty" when you're off-duty, then I don't know.

If your agency makes you carry off-duty on a CCW, you're out of luck.

blueberry1177
08-29-2011, 13:31
in Michigan all police officers, reserves, and sheriff's auxiliary are allowed

OLY-M4gery
08-29-2011, 13:41
I know they can when on duty, but I just wasn't sure if cops are allowed to carry off duty in places that are illegal for civilians to carry in.:dunno:

This isn't a troll thread or meant to spark any debate as to why cops can carry where some people can't, I'm just looking for clarification.

Thanks

Because police officers are police officers 24/7, even if they are not actively on duty.

Morris
08-29-2011, 14:07
In Washington state, yes. Sometimes, much to the chagrin of some more liberal school administrators.

ray9898
08-29-2011, 14:11
In GA it would be yes since LEO's have arrest powers 24/7.

GackMan
08-29-2011, 14:50
In my state cops can carry in schools... and so can CCW holders.

1 old 0311
08-29-2011, 15:04
In Ohio they can carry IF on duty. Off duty, even if in uniform, is a felony.

S.O.Interceptor
08-29-2011, 15:04
In Texas, yes we can.

collim1
08-29-2011, 15:23
In Ohio they can carry IF on duty. Off duty, even if in uniform, is a felony.

seriously?

Denied
08-29-2011, 15:31
My interpretation is anyone covered by LEOSA can carry inside schools since it is states laws that prohibit and LEOSA states we are exempt for all state laws except inside government buildings and private properties when marked.

From the LEO involved shooting in Sturgis, SD Aug. 08

Circuit Court Judge Johnson wrote in his memorandum opinion:

"While states retain the right to prohibit the possession of firearms on government property and to permit private persons and entities to prohibit the possession of firearms on their property, they cannot restrict qualified law enforcement officers in any other manner"

Come on folks this is not that hard to understand.

SAR
08-29-2011, 15:44
My interpretation is anyone covered by LEOSA can carry inside schools since it is states laws that prohibit and LEOSA states we are exempt for all state laws except inside government buildings and private properties when marked.

Come on folks this is not that hard to understand.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there with respect to LEOSA:


"Conflict between LEOSA and other lawsAlthough the general effect of LEOSA is to override state and local law, this is subject to limitations. LEOSA does not override:

1) state laws permitting private property owners from limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons on their property (such as public bars, private clubs, and places such as amusement parks)

2) state laws prohibiting carrying concealed weapons on state or local government property (such as courthouses, schools or parks)"

NEOH212
08-29-2011, 16:28
In my state cops can carry in schools... and so can CCW holders.

This is the way it should be in every state.

NEOH212
08-29-2011, 16:30
In my state cops can carry in schools... and so can CCW holders.

Our laws in this state suck. There has to be some serious reform. You know it's bad when even a LEO can't carry.

Dukeboy01
08-29-2011, 17:12
In Washington state, yes. Sometimes, much to the chagrin of some more liberal school administrators.

Legal in KY. And I enjoy getting the school marms' panties in a wad as well.

Morris
08-29-2011, 17:40
Actually had a principal at one elementary schools tell one of us to disarm before we came in.

They left soon after. :)

mixflip
08-29-2011, 17:45
I carry concealed to my sons school every day when I pick him up. NRS 202.350.7

BailRecoveryAgent
08-29-2011, 17:47
In Washington state, yes. Sometimes, much to the chagrin of some more liberal school administrators.

Thanks Morris, I should have been more clear in my op that I was mostly looking for info on WA state.

In my state cops can carry in schools... and so can CCW holders.

Which PNW state is that?

mrsurfboard
08-29-2011, 18:29
Actually had a principal at one elementary schools tell one of us to disarm before we came in.

They left soon after. :)

Sound like a typical left wing, touchy feely, loon if you ask me. All too prevalent in education.

GackMan
08-29-2011, 18:31
Thanks Morris, I should have been more clear in my op that I was mostly looking for info on WA state.



Which PNW state is that?

Sorry man - it is the not washington one.

BarrySDCA
08-29-2011, 18:48
This is the way it should be in every state.

Isn't it ironic, the one place where our most important citizens are - and demonstrated by history to be quite dangerous, some states actually ban licensed CCW and therefore make our kids more vulnerable in the process.

Thankfully, this is one area where California has it right. CCW can carry...

Sam Spade
08-29-2011, 21:17
In AZ, yes we can.

Not buying LEOSA as a justification---there's a federal prohibition on guns inschools, and LEOSA doesn't override federal restrictions.

Ljunatic
08-29-2011, 21:25
Nebraska just passed a law to allow off duty LEO's to carry in schools.

TexasSchool Cop
08-30-2011, 06:37
In Texas LEO's are good to go. If you don't have one, our gang members will rent you one. :-)

DOrth
08-30-2011, 09:59
In my state cops can carry in schools... and so can CCW holders.

Same in Alabama except for college campuses. LEOs can carry on college campuses but not CHL holders, but CHL holders can legally carry concealed at K-12 school campuses. Crazy huh?

Bill Lumberg
08-30-2011, 10:03
With rare exception, yes, absolutely. But there are states where the laws were poorly written and did not make LE exemption clear. I remember some discussion regarding the safer schools act (federal) as well.

Bill Lumberg
08-30-2011, 10:05
SAR is correct. Anyone carrying under LEOSA must familiarize themselves with state laws regarding government property, per section two below. I'm going to have to disagree with you there with respect to LEOSA:


"Conflict between LEOSA and other lawsAlthough the general effect of LEOSA is to override state and local law, this is subject to limitations. LEOSA does not override:

1) state laws permitting private property owners from limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons on their property (such as public bars, private clubs, and places such as amusement parks)

2) state laws prohibiting carrying concealed weapons on state or local government property (such as courthouses, schools or parks)"

SCSU74
08-30-2011, 10:09
I know they can when on duty, but I just wasn't sure if cops are allowed to carry off duty in places that are illegal for civilians to carry in.:dunno:

This isn't a troll thread or meant to spark any debate as to why cops can carry where some people can't, I'm just looking for clarification.

Thanks

the only place we aren't allowed to carry is cowboy stadium, found out the hard way...

GunFighter45ACP
08-30-2011, 11:03
Is there a difference between 'required to' & 'authorized to'? How does this determination effect off duty carry?

DOrth
08-30-2011, 11:07
Originally Posted by SAR http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17845368#post17845368)
I'm going to have to disagree with you there with respect to LEOSA:


"Conflict between LEOSA and other lawsAlthough the general effect of LEOSA is to override state and local law, this is subject to limitations. LEOSA does not override:

1) state laws permitting private property owners from limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons on their property (such as public bars, private clubs, and places such as amusement parks)

2) state laws prohibiting carrying concealed weapons on state or local government property (such as courthouses, schools or parks)"

There were a couple of out of state LEOs arrested in a bar after becoming involved in a fist fight between some other patrons (neither had been drinking adult beverages) in I believe South Dakota maybe 3-4 years ago and used the LEOSA as their only defense the judge ruled in their favor and dismissed the charges against them with extreme prejudice. In his opinion LEOSA DID over ride the state's law banning firearms in bars or anywhere that served adult beverages. The officers were either traveling to, at or returning from the big motor cycle rally in Sturgis at the time.

I personally would not arrest an officer for violating a state law concerning the carrying of concealed weapons unless they were making an ***** out of themselves (and only then if they refused to leave without further incident) or committing some breach of the peace. I've stopped out of state LEOs years before the LEOSA became law and just advised them to be careful and slow down, etc. I understand that it is completely a matter of officer's discretion. I rarely travel outside of Alabama, so I really haven't given it much thought.

DOrth
08-30-2011, 11:15
In Ohio they can carry IF on duty. Off duty, even if in uniform, is a felony.

Now THAT is one jacked up law! The question is this: Is it actually enforced, particularly while in uniform? What kind of ******* cop would arrest a brother officer IN UNIFORM for carrying a freaking sidearm? Would THEY leave their sidearm in their car while in uniform and having to go to their child(rens) school on the way home off duty? I doubt it, but if so that's just one more reason I'm glad I live in the South and why I rarely like to travel above the Mason Dixon Line or anywhere near the Left Coast.

SCSU74
08-30-2011, 12:30
I doubt it, but if so that's just one more reason I'm glad I live in the South and why I rarely like to travel above the Mason Dixon Line or anywhere near the Left Coast.

haha the reasons continue to add up :)

hikerpaddler
08-30-2011, 14:48
Apples and oranges. LEOSA always trumps state and local law-except in section two, as SAR pointed out. LEOSA allows state and municipal governments the ability to restrict off duty carry in their buildings and parks your example has nothing to do with that. Originally Posted by SAR http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17845368#post17845368)
I'm going to have to disagree with you there with respect to LEOSA:


"Conflict between LEOSA and other lawsAlthough the general effect of LEOSA is to override state and local law, this is subject to limitations. LEOSA does not override:

1) state laws permitting private property owners from limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons on their property (such as public bars, private clubs, and places such as amusement parks)

2) state laws prohibiting carrying concealed weapons on state or local government property (such as courthouses, schools or parks)"

There were a couple of out of state LEOs arrested in a bar after becoming involved in a fist fight between some other patrons (neither had been drinking adult beverages) in I believe South Dakota maybe 3-4 years ago and used the LEOSA as their only defense the judge ruled in their favor and dismissed the charges against them with extreme prejudice. In his opinion LEOSA DID over ride the state's law banning firearms in bars or anywhere that served adult beverages. The officers were either traveling to, at or returning from the big motor cycle rally in Sturgis at the time.

I personally would not arrest an officer for violating a state law concerning the carrying of concealed weapons unless they were making an ***** out of themselves (and only then if they refused to leave without further incident) or committing some breach of the peace. I've stopped out of state LEOs years before the LEOSA became law and just advised them to be careful and slow down, etc. I understand that it is completely a matter of officer's discretion. I rarely travel outside of Alabama, so I really haven't given it much thought.

msu_grad_121
08-30-2011, 15:49
in Michigan all police officers, reserves, and sheriff's auxiliary are allowed

Careful. Reserves and auxiliaries are allowed to get their CPLs exempted from pistol-free zones, but that's not exactly the same thing as being able to carry prima facae off duty.

Landric
08-30-2011, 16:46
In North Carolina NC LEOs (full, part-time, and reserve) can carry everywhere that "regular citizens" are restricted by state law from carrying, provided the LEO in question is carrying a firearm with which he has qualified with through his agency. That includes schools. NC LEO are exempt from the restrictions on concealed carry under GS 14-269(b). That statute that prohibits firearms in schools exempts those covered under GS 14-269(b).

This chart was part of NC LEO in-service training a couple of years ago:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/Landric/IMG_0379.jpg

steveksux
08-30-2011, 19:18
Careful. Reserves and auxiliaries are allowed to get their CPLs exempted from pistol-free zones, but that's not exactly the same thing as being able to carry prima facae off duty.I think reserves/auxiliaries are listed in the exceptions to the pistol free zones in the CPL law, so I don't think the cpl needs to be updated.

The last PFZ, casinos, I believe may not be included in that exception..

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf
I might be wrong on the casino thing based on that, I was probably thinking about it since ts the only PFZ that doesn't exempt the parking lot...

Randy

GackMan
08-30-2011, 19:21
Same in Alabama except for college campuses. LEOs can carry on college campuses but not CHL holders, but CHL holders can legally carry concealed at K-12 school campuses. Crazy huh?

The way it works here is political sub-entities of various sorts of .gov can't create laws that restrict CCW. Pre-emption. That was written into the law at the state level so there wouldn't be every city, town, village, etc. writing their own version of CCW laws and turning CCW into a big goat screw.

The school is part of the .gov... Public universities are too.

Private schools are not, they can make people do whatever they want. It is their property.

There have been a couple pushes to add schools to the list of illegal places to carry but none of them have made it out of comittee (yet).

alba666
08-30-2011, 19:49
Same in Alabama except for college campuses. LEOs can carry on college campuses but not CHL holders, but CHL holders can legally carry concealed at K-12 school campuses. Crazy huh?

I'm pretty familiar with AL law and haven't seen the college campus prohibition with a pistol permit. Yes, the liberal bow-tie university crowd doesn't like it, but I've not seen it in Code of Alabama. If you can cite code & section, I would appreciate it.
I do live 4 blocks from a BIG college stadium, so if I missed something I'd like to know.


Real women have real bodies with lotsa curves so I can hug'em really tight and not get bruises!

msu_grad_121
08-30-2011, 21:10
I think reserves/auxiliaries are listed in the exceptions to the pistol free zones in the CPL law, so I don't think the cpl needs to be updated.


It was my understanding that the exceptions were only for when working on duty, and that if you're going to carry off duty, you've got to get your exemption box checked. I've been wrong before, but I do remember it being a huge stink, which was "fixed."

SAR
08-30-2011, 22:05
There were a couple of out of state LEOs arrested in a bar after becoming involved in a fist fight between some other patrons (neither had been drinking adult beverages) in I believe South Dakota maybe 3-4 years ago and used the LEOSA as their only defense the judge ruled in their favor and dismissed the charges against them with extreme prejudice. In his opinion LEOSA DID over ride the state's law banning firearms in bars or anywhere that served adult beverages. The officers were either traveling to, at or returning from the big motor cycle rally in Sturgis at the time.


I am very familiar with this case and as others have pointed out, the same comparison cannot be made vis a vis a private bar establishment and a government office or locale.

That being said, sure, the guys in South Dakota won their case, but not without incurring a permanent arrest record which they will have to explain forever and also huge attorneys fees to fight their case in court. Me personally, I could live without the arrest record and a bankrupcy on my record... I don't need to push the envelope that badly.

txleapd
08-31-2011, 03:27
Texas law doesn't distinguish a difference between on and off duty.

GunFighter45ACP
08-31-2011, 09:22
Texas law doesn't distinguish a difference between on and off duty.

Exactly. But wouldn't this mean a TX LEO doesn't fall under HR218 (unless retired or out of state)?

trifecta
08-31-2011, 23:18
Exactly. But wouldn't this mean a TX LEO doesn't fall under HR218 (unless retired or out of state)?

It means we aren't depending on LEOSA to carry in Texas. We had the same carry rules before LEOSA was passed or updated.

SAR
08-31-2011, 23:34
Exactly. But wouldn't this mean a TX LEO doesn't fall under HR218 (unless retired or out of state)?

It means we aren't depending on LEOSA to carry in Texas. We had the same carry rules before LEOSA was passed or updated.

California Police Officers have always been able to carry within California. Our problems only came in when we left the State. I think most states are similar for their home turf LEOs. I think LEOSA was designed to help you carry in the other 49.

Patchman
09-01-2011, 03:53
California Police Officers have always been able to carry within California. Our problems only came in when we left the State. I think most states are similar for their home turf LEOs. I think LEOSA was designed to help you carry in the other 49.

Yes, that's the way it is here. We have the right (granted by state law) to carry throughout the state, even though our work jurisdiction covers only the city. Upon entering another state, LEOSA takes over.