Anyone have issues with Montana Gold 9mm JHP's seating crooked? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Meathead9
09-01-2011, 21:45
I have had issues with XTP's seating crooked with my 9x25 Dillon dies, and it looks like MG's have the same profile as the XTP. I'm considering buying a case of 124gr JHP's to use for 9mm & 9x25 Dillon (both with Dillon dies), but I don't want to have issues seating them straight. I'm guessing that since a go-zillion shooters use MG's, it's probably not a problem, but I want to make sure before I buy 3,750 of them.

I know I can "customize" my seater stem with epoxy, but I was hoping to skip that if I can. If that ends up being my only option, can someone give me a play-by-play on how to do that correctly? I figure why reinvent the wheel if some of you guys have done this before. I'm not really interested in paying $80 for a Redding Competition Seating Die, but if it saves me $30 per 1000 bullets, it will pay for itself pretty quickly.

I was considering Zero's, but they cost about $30 more per 1000.
I'm set on 124gr JHP's, so those 2 seem to be my only real option.

Boxerglocker
09-01-2011, 21:52
Two cheap FREE things to try.
1. Give a more generous flare to sit the bullet on.
2. When you set your dies, raise the loaded shellplate into the seater die and loosen it. This will allow it to center in the threads of the toolhead bore then tighten it down. (I do it with all stations).

Meathead9
09-01-2011, 22:22
Two cheap FREE things to try.
1. Give a more generous flare to sit the bullet on.
2. When you set your dies, raise the loaded shellplate into the seater die and loosen it. This will allow it to center in the threads of the toolhead bore then tighten it down. (I do it with all stations).

Thanks man. The only way I was able to correct it with my 9x25 Dillon XTP loads, was to give the cases a REDICULOUS amount of flare. I was hoping to find a 124gr JHP with a different profile, so I don't have to work the brass so hard, but the price of MG's is hard to beat.

I'll have to try resetting the dies too, thanks again.

Boxerglocker
09-01-2011, 22:34
Thanks man. The only way I was able to correct it with my 9x25 Dillon XTP loads, was to give the cases a REDICULOUS amount of flare. I was hoping to find a 124gr JHP with a different profile, so I don't have to work the brass so hard, but the price of MG's is hard to beat.

I'll have to try resetting the dies too, thanks again.

No worries... also the newer dillon seating dies have two sides for different profiles, if I recall. Don't remember as I use the Redding Comp. Anyways check your and see if the flipside will work better.

Meathead9
09-01-2011, 22:41
No worries... also the newer dillon seating dies have two sides for different profiles, if I recall. Don't remember as I use the Redding Comp. Anyways check your and see if the flipside will work better.

Yep, tried that too. I initially had this problem with the JHP/FN side of the stem, so I flipped it over. The RN side crunched the tip of the XTP's inward, to where the HP cavity almost closed completely.

Boxerglocker
09-01-2011, 22:53
Yep, tried that too. I initially had this problem with the JHP/FN side of the stem, so I flipped it over. The RN side crunched the tip of the XTP's inward, to where the HP cavity almost closed completely.

Hmmm, you may end up having to just filling the one side flat with epoxy. Give the other things a try first.

GioaJack
09-02-2011, 08:56
Increasing the amount of flare/bell on a case can actually exacerbate the problem of bullet runout... it allows the projectile to tip to one side even further.

The easiest and most effect fix is to use either a 'M' style flaring die or a powder funnel with a two step flare design, (incorporates an 'M' design) which allows the projectile to not only sit straight and upright in the case but alleviates the problem of the projectile tipping while a progressive press indexes.

Although 'M' dies have been very popular with lead loaders for many years they work equally well with jacketed and plated bullets.

A very important benefit is that they allow you to seat a projectile on a case while watching the flat panel without worry that it will be seated crooked. (An example of a specialty die actually worth the cost. Lyman dies run eleven bucks and are available in many different diameters. :supergrin:)


Jack

Boxerglocker
09-02-2011, 09:02
Increasing the amount of flare/bell on a case can actually exacerbate the problem of bullet runout... it allows the projectile to tip to one side even further.

The easiest and most effect fix is to use either a 'M' style flaring die or a powder funnel with a two step flare design, (incorporates an 'M' design) which allows the projectile to not only sit straight and upright in the case but alleviates the problem of the projectile tipping while a progressive press indexes.

Although 'M' dies have been very popular with lead loaders for many years they work equally well with jacketed and plated bullets.

A very important benefit is that they allow you to seat a projectile on a case while watching the flat panel without worry that it will be seated crooked. (An example of a specialty die actually worth the cost. Lyman dies run eleven bucks and are available in many different diameters. :supergrin:)


Jack

So would these M style flaring dies work with a Dillon set-up? I ask being that the Dillon power drop not only flares but neck sizes right?

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2011, 09:32
So would these M style flaring dies work with a Dillon set-up? I ask being that the Dillon power drop not only flares but neck sizes right?

Yep, And I didn't see a big difference between the M-die and the Dillon in 9mm. I would try flaring to .015-.020". See if that helps. Beyond that is a waste. But some people would consider that "alot of flare". It's really not. If that doesn't work then try a different seating die. My lee seats these bullets perfectly. I know it's not as fancy as a Dillon. But the Lee seems to have a different shape in the cone (sharper/steeper). It seems to work well.

Meathead9
09-02-2011, 09:45
Yep, And I didn't see a big difference between the M-die and the Dillon in 9mm. I would try flaring to .015-.020". See if that helps. Beyond that is a waste. But some people would consider that "alot of flare". It's really not. If that doesn't work then try a different seating die. My lee seats these bullets perfectly. I know it's not as fancy as a Dillon. But the Lee seems to have a different shape in the cone (sharper/steeper). It seems to work well.

I did try both sides of my RCBS 9mm seating die, and would have tried the LEE die that I used to have, but the LEE die's internal diameter isn't big enough to accept the 10mm portion of the 9x25 case. I didn't measure the amount of flare that seemed to help, but it was definitely more than .002. I have read that LEE will make custom seating stems, does anyone know if Dillon provides that service? I guess I should probably call them myself.

I also forgot to add that I had this issue while loading the 9x25 on a RockChucker. I'll be loading the 9mm on my 650, but the 9x25 will stay with the RockChucker.

GioaJack
09-02-2011, 09:54
I only use the 'M' dies on my LNL's since there's really no place to put them on the 1050's or 550... don't know about the 650.

I find that they work much better than the Dillon or Hornady funnels, especially when loading lead. A very nice feature is that you can buy different diameter stems, (for use with lead or jacketed, etc) and interchange them in one die body.

Not all that necessary when using a SS but with the movement of a progressive shell plate the projectile is held tight and perfectly straight.

Increasing flare/bell past a certain point simply allows a projectile to tilt/offset even more and does nothing to correct runout.

Is an 'M' style die absolutely necessary... no, of course not, just makes life a little easier.


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2011, 09:56
I did try both sides of my RCBS 9mm seating die, and would have tried the LEE die that I used to have, but the LEE die's internal diameter isn't big enough to accept the 10mm portion of the 9x25 case. I didn't measure the amount of flare that seemed to help, but it was definitely more than .002. I have read that LEE will make custom seating stems, does anyone know if Dillon provides that service? I guess I should probably call them myself.

I also forgot to add that I had this issue while loading the 9x25 on a RockChucker. I'll be loading the 9mm on my 650, but the 9x25 will stay with the RockChucker.

I said .015-.020. :wavey:

I wonder if you could turn the Lee down in a lath a little to get it to work with your caliber. ESPECIALLY, if you know it seats those bullets properly (not sure if it does). But if it did it would be worth the trouble.

Colorado4Wheel
09-02-2011, 10:01
I only use the 'M' dies on my LNL's since there's really no place to put them on the 1050's or 550... don't know about the 650.

I find that they work much better than the Dillon or Hornady funnels, especially when loading lead. A very nice feature is that you can buy different diameter stems, (for use with lead or jacketed, etc) and interchange them in one die body.

Not all that necessary when using a SS but with the movement of a progressive shell plate the projectile is held tight and perfectly straight.

Increasing flare/bell past a certain point simply allows a projectile to tilt/offset even more and does nothing to correct runout.

Is an 'M' style die absolutely necessary... no, of course not, just makes life a little easier.


Jack

I am going to guess that the M-Die would not work that great on the 650 unless you moved the powder measure to the 3rd station (you would need to alter the powder measure to make that work). Also, the M-Die is probably not going to take the 10mm case, just like the Lee is too small for the 10mm case in the 9mm die.

Zombie Steve
09-02-2011, 10:04
Sure sound like your dies aren't squared up.

Meathead9
09-02-2011, 10:23
I said .015-.020. :wavey:

I wonder if you could turn the Lee down in a lath a little to get it to work with your caliber. ESPECIALLY, if you know it seats those bullets properly (not sure if it does). But if it did it would be worth the trouble.


Sorry, that was a typo. I'll measure some when I get home tomorrow, but I'm guessing it's much more than .020.

I don't know if squaring the die was my issue, because if I remember correctly, about half were straight & half crooked (varying in severity). It's definitely a good possibility, but I'm leaning more towards the steep angled flat ogive of the 9mm XTP/MG profile. The sides don't make contact with the seating plug, and the tip of the bullet is very narrow. I don't think the die makes enough contact with this particular bullet to consistently seat them straight.

It may not be as noticeable in the 9mm case, but it's pretty obvious with the 9x25 Dillon.

Thanks for all the input fellers, I appreciate the help.

Hoser
09-02-2011, 10:26
Break out the epoxy and back off the flare.

Meathead9
09-02-2011, 10:37
Break out the epoxy and back off the flare.


I know I can "customize" my seater stem with epoxy, but I was hoping to skip that if I can. If that ends up being my only option, can someone give me a play-by-play on how to do that correctly? I figure why reinvent the wheel if some of you guys have done this before.


Care to elaborate?

WiskyT
09-02-2011, 11:55
Break out the epoxy and back off the flare.

I think that's the way to go. You need to have the seater stem fit the bullet properly. I had a large amount of 40SW TC bullets that were real pointy and would tip so bad the rounds wouldn't chamber using a Lee die. I got Lee to make a custom seater and it fixed it right up. I don't use those bullets anymore, bit the custom seater works with other bullets that I do use.

I have used seaters that were completely mismatched to the bullet and they worked fine, and had the single above example where the custom seater was the onyl thing that would work. I tried every thing and the custom seater was the only solution.

Since Dillon's customer service is so good, I would call them, or use epoxy, or have a local shop change the profile of your seater.

GioaJack
09-02-2011, 13:03
I am going to guess that the M-Die would not work that great on the 650 unless you moved the powder measure to the 3rd station (you would need to alter the powder measure to make that work). Also, the M-Die is probably not going to take the 10mm case, just like the Lee is too small for the 10mm case in the 9mm die.


I'm not really familiar with the 650 too head so I don't know if it would work or not. As you know on the LNL you can put the powder measure anywhere you want so it's easy for me to have the 'M' die just before the measure, a powder cop after it then a seating/crimping die after that. Except for the way the Dillons are set up I don't use separate seat and crimp dies... simply no reason unless you have an open station that you're no using.

I have absolutely no idea about the 10mm, never even shot one must less loaded 'em... came out way after my time.


Jack

WiskyT
09-02-2011, 13:28
I have absolutely no idea about the 10mm, never even shot one must less loaded 'em... came out way after my time. And besides, the 10mm was invented for flatlanders who are afraid of the dark.


Jack
.....

Meathead9
09-02-2011, 13:34
I just got off the phone with Dillon. I was told that they do not make custom seater plugs, and that my best bet is to increase the flare. I tried that, and it didn't completely solve the problem.


As I said in my original post, I knew that epoxy may be the only answer for me. A lot of guys have also suggested putting epoxy in the seater plug. Can someone please tell me how to do this correctly?

I want to do it right the first time, and since so many people suggest it, I figured someone has to have done this before.

Meathead9
09-02-2011, 20:36
Why did all the responses stop all of a sudden, when I asked for advice about using epoxy to make a custom seater plug?

I have seen it recommended here on GTR several times, including a few in this thread. I was hoping that atleast one of you had actually done this before advising others to do it.

PCJim
09-02-2011, 21:01
Why did all the responses stop all of a sudden, when I asked for advice about using epoxy to make a custom seater plug?

They've all got lives outside GT? :supergrin:

I have read the steps on here many times, but have not performed the trick. Basically, remove the seater plug that you want to modify. Mix some epoxy and apply "just enough" to enable you to take a greased down bullet and push it's nose profile into the epoxy. Make sure the epoxy doesn't run outside the plug diameter or you will not be able to get it back inside the die. Let the bullet sit in the epoxy until the epoxy is firm/hard, then remove the greased bullet.

Again, I have no experience in this, only a good mental idea of the steps involved. When Jack returns from courting his newfound ladies, I'm sure he'll chime in.

Boxerglocker
09-02-2011, 21:12
They've all got lives outside GT? :supergrin:

I have read the steps on here many times, but have not performed the trick. Basically, remove the seater plug that you want to modify. Mix some epoxy and apply "just enough" to enable you to take a greased down bullet and push it's nose profile into the epoxy. Make sure the epoxy doesn't run outside the plug diameter or you will not be able to get it back inside the die. Let the bullet sit in the epoxy until the epoxy is firm/hard, then remove the greased bullet.

Again, I have no experience in this, only a good mental idea of the steps involved. When Jack returns from courting his newfound ladies, I'm sure he'll chime in.

That's pretty much it.... but one thing to add, if doing a JHP... a little trick I read is to fill the cavity with melted wax and smooth it flat with a knife before greasing and placing in the epoxy.

Meathead9
09-02-2011, 21:15
They've all got lives outside GT? :supergrin:

I have read the steps on here many times, but have not performed the trick. Basically, remove the seater plug that you want to modify. Mix some epoxy and apply "just enough" to enable you to take a greased down bullet and push it's nose profile into the epoxy. Make sure the epoxy doesn't run outside the plug diameter or you will not be able to get it back inside the die. Let the bullet sit in the epoxy until the epoxy is firm/hard, then remove the greased bullet.

Again, I have no experience in this, only a good mental idea of the steps involved. When Jack returns from courting his newfound ladies, I'm sure he'll chime in.

With some of their post counts, I hadn't considered that...


My initial idea was to do what you suggested, but I thought there might be a way to better ensure the bullet is centered. I don't want to eyeball it, and end up being worse off than I started.

PCJim
09-03-2011, 07:48
Well, if you are real careful, you could reassemble the die with the epoxy still soft and push the bullet gently into place with a case. The problem is determining whether the epoxy/JB Weld oozes onto parts other than the bullet seat.

Colorado4Wheel
09-03-2011, 08:00
I am 99% sure this will work. Buy a .40 Lee seating die. Send Lee a bullet and have them use the .40 seating stem (it's shorter then the 9mm stem, which makes sense) but put a custom plug for you 9mm bullet. I don't see why that wouldn't work. I am not a huge fan of Epoxy stems. So that is what I would do.

WiskyT
09-03-2011, 08:26
I would just call Dillon. He's not asking for something unusual. The call is free, and their fixes are generally free.

Colorado4Wheel
09-03-2011, 08:29
He already did that I thought. He wants a custom stem, they don't offer that. Zombie Steve is right, he needs to make sure the die is centered (Loosen lock ring, raise case into die, set lock ring). But beyond that and fiddling with flare he is kinda out of options.

WiskyT
09-03-2011, 08:34
He already did that I thought. He wants a custom stem, they don't offer that. Zombie Steve is right, he needs to make sure the die is centered (Loosen lock ring, raise case into die, set lock ring). But beyond that and fiddling with flare he is kinda out of options.

They don't offer it as a listed service for a fee. They might respond to the fact that he is having a problem doing a conventional thing with their product. They may have revised the seating stem based on other complaints and send him an updated one, or they might run a custom one off for him.

WiskyT
09-03-2011, 08:41
Just a thought here. Lee made the custon seater for me so that it fit the bullet I was using like a dream. But, I don't think it was necessary to make it that well. The key is to have the skirt of the seater engage the ogive of the bullet without the point of the bullet making contact with the seater. You can't make the skirt longer, but maybe the OP can relieve the inner area of the seater so it doesn't contact the nose.

That was the problem I was having. The skirt never touched the bullet. The nose would contact the inner part of the seater and since it didn't fit that part well, some would tip. In my case, if the seater was simply relieved so the point never touched the seater, it would have worked fine.

It would be easy to hog out the seater's recess, or even ream it in a drill press, so that the point doesn't make contact with it.

GioaJack
09-03-2011, 10:18
What the hell is the big deal of modifying a seating stem, it's done all the time, and if I can do it an untrained monkey can do it. To prove the point, I believe Little Stevie even did it one time.

All you need is two-part, hard setting epoxy or JB Weld. (I've never used the JB Weld but know lots of guys who have. Apparently to remove it when you want to return the stem to it's original configuration or re-modify it you simply put it in the oven at 400 degrees. No big deal.)

Put your seating die in the tool head, it does not have to be set at a seating depth. Remove the seating stem and degrease it thoroughly. (Easiest way is to boil it to make sure all oil is removed.)

Mix your epoxy or JB Weld, let it set up slightly so that it doesn't droop when held upside down. Fill the seating stem cavity, making sure it overlaps the sharp edges.

Apply a liberal coating of oil, (any oil will do) to the nose of the bullet, set in in a case placed in the shell plate. Raise the ram so that the bullet makes full contact into the epoxy and takes on the exact shape of the bullet. Drop the ram. If you oiled the bullet enough it will drop away from the stem with the case.

Unscrew the stem from the die, wipe off any epoxy that squeezed out along the sides of the stem then lean the stem up against something, (seating end up) overnight. Take a Q-Tip soaked in alcohol and clean out any epoxy that may have touched the inside of the seating die itself.

The next morning, (12 hours drying time) you can load up all of your weird shaped bullets to your heart's content. If you did it right that one application of epoxy or JB Weld will last for thousands and thousands of bullets and can be removed at any time.

Note: Unless you're shooting 25 and 50 yard NRA bullseye where you have to put 5 shot strings into the X-ring to win slight marring of a pistol bullet is going to have no noticeable effect on useful accuracy or performance. If there is not significant alteration to the bullet profile and you don't suffer from an irritatingly anal personality modifying a seating stem may not even be worth your time. Then again... what else do you have to do.


Jack

Hoser
09-04-2011, 08:11
Jack nailed it.

It isnt hard to do and does not take long.

I use normal epoxy instead of JB.

Be sure to clean off wherever you want the epoxy to stick to with acetone.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was dove hunting, working and shooting.

Meathead9
09-04-2011, 12:29
Thanks for the help guys, I'm going to try the epoxy out.

My dad, who works for a large Steel company, came over to see the grandkids yesterday. I showed him the seater plug, and an XTP. He said he could have one of the machine shop guys make me a custom seater plug that matches the angle of the 9mm XTP bullets. I gave him a Dillon seater plug & a few XTP's, so we'll see how it goes.

RH45
09-05-2011, 03:48
I used to have that problem occasionally, and it seemed to be mostly with 9mm and .38 Supercomp. I switched to Redding, competition, seating dies and now they always come out perfect.