w231 hp38 powder question [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Getready4it
09-04-2011, 17:23
Somewhere on here I read that w231 and hp38 were the same powder marketed under different names. I'm still somewhat new to loading and have some w231. I was going to try some hp38 but if it's the same what would be the point? I looked to the Lee maual and for the calibers I load there were some substantial differences between the charge weights with same bullets especially .357. Am I missing something, are they the same? I'm looking for an all around powder loading .38spl, .357 and .45acp.

Colorado4Wheel
09-04-2011, 17:26
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

They are the same now. Look at the data using the above link.

HAMMERHEAD
09-04-2011, 17:38
Yup, now the same.

VN350X10
09-04-2011, 19:28
Have been the same powder for quite a while.
The difference in load data comes down to this:

There's a LOT of lot to lot difference.
Sorry, just had to use that line !

uncle albert

fredj338
09-04-2011, 19:33
If you have powder in the old containers, they are diff, always have been. If you have current manuf pwoder, they are the same & data is interchangeable. The Lee manual has a lot of old data in it.

WiskyT
09-05-2011, 05:55
If you have powder in the old containers, they are diff, always have been. If you have current manuf pwoder, they are the same & data is interchangeable. The Lee manual has a lot of old data in it.

They have been the same for decades. The differences in data ar due to lot to lot variations and differences in data SOURCE. AFAIK they have always been the same.

Hodgdon was never a powder manufacturer. He packaged and marketed powders from various sources. That his HP38 was Winchester's 231 has been common knowledge for as long as I can remember.

El_Ron1
09-05-2011, 09:03
Maintaining a stash of older powders gets interesting sometimes. Labeling containers and collecting older data guides can help.

fredj338
09-05-2011, 09:20
They have been the same for decades. The differences in data ar due to lot to lot variations and differences in data SOURCE. AFAIK they have always been the same.

Hodgdon was never a powder manufacturer. He packaged and marketed powders from various sources. That his HP38 was Winchester's 231 has been common knowledge for as long as I can remember.
I will have to doubt you on this as even my not that old manuals do not list them as the same charge wt vs vel, that pretty much tells me they are diff, not just manuf the same & relabled. At least back to the Speer #8 days, so yeah for maybe 20yrs.:dunno:

GIockGuy24
09-05-2011, 09:33
With the original versions, HP-38 was a "bulk" version of W-231 blended to Hodgdon's specs. Canister powders are blended to maintain a certain burning rate from lot to lot or can to can. Bulk powders vary more widely in burning rate than canister powders. Hodgdon used to buy the cheaper bulk version of W-231 and blend it to their own range of burning rate. Traditionally Hodgdon powders were cheaper and varied a bit more from can to can than Winchester powders. Now Winchester has made a deal with Hodgdon where Hodgdon now distributes Winchester powders. It seems like they have also allowed Hodgdon to apply the Hodgdon broader burning rate to the Winchester powders, making the current powders exactly the same. There never was much difference between the powders though.

WiskyT
09-05-2011, 10:16
I will have to doubt you on this as even my not that old manuals do not list them as the same charge wt vs vel, that pretty much tells me they are diff, not just manuf the same & relabled. At least back to the Speer #8 days, so yeah for maybe 20yrs.:dunno:

It's called lot to lot variation. 296 and 110 are the same powders and have variations within the same manuals too. H414 and WW760 are the same way.

You could take 2 different cans of 231 and get slightly different data.

WiskyT
09-05-2011, 10:19
With the original versions, HP-38 was a "bulk" version of W-231 blended to Hodgdon's specs. Canister powders are blended to maintain a certain burning rate from lot to lot or can to can. Bulk powders vary more widely in burning rate than canister powders. Hodgdon used to buy the cheaper bulk version of W-231 and blend it to their own range of burning rate. Traditionally Hodgdon powders were cheaper and varied a bit more from can to can than Winchester powders. Now Winchester has made a deal with Hodgdon where Hodgdon now distributes Winchester powders. It seems like they have also allowed Hodgdon to apply the Hodgdon broader burning rate to the Winchester powders, making the current powders exactly the same. There never was much difference between the powders though.

Except that Hodgdon only recently took over the WW powders and I had an email that my father got from Hodgdon from back in the days when he was all excited about getting the latest dial-up modem and having Prodigy :supergrin: It was a list of all the identicle Hodgdon/WW powders.

I should have saved it when I went through his stuff hand scanned it.

GIockGuy24
09-05-2011, 13:00
Except that Hodgdon only recently took over the WW powders and I had an email that my father got from Hodgdon from back in the days when he was all excited about getting the latest dial-up modem and having Prodigy :supergrin: It was a list of all the identicle Hodgdon/WW powders.

I should have saved it when I went through his stuff hand scanned it.

Yes I know. The Hodgdon versions of those powders were from bulk lots and blended to Hodgdon's specs. The powders were exactly the same powders except that Hodgdon allows more variation from lo to lot of their powders than Winchester did of their powders. For example Winchester may have have allowed say 3 percent variation and Hodgdon may have allowed 5 percent. They were the same powders, just allowed burning rate range was different. There could be complete overlap or there could have been some Hodgdon versions that were out of range of the Winchester powders. The differences would show up in load guides just like lot to lot variations and using the load data interchangeably most likely the end user wouldn't be able to tell any difference that they don't notice from can to can. I have interchanged their load data for many years. Before Hodgdon got the deal to distribute the Winchester powders W-748 was fairly tightly controlled in burning rate from can to can. Now there are often fairly large differences from can to can and it doesn't have Hodgdon powder match. The differences are more noticeable in rifle powders. The powders that are same powders only differed in looking like larger lot to lot variations of the same powders, which is what it was. It has been known they are the same powders for a long time. Hodgdon bought IMR powders and their lot to lot variations have increased since.

WiskyT
09-05-2011, 13:10
Yes I know. The Hodgdon versions of those powders were from bulk lots and blended to Hodgdon's specs. The powders were exactly the same powders except that Hodgdon allows more variation from lo to lot of their powders than Winchester did of their powders. For example Winchester may have have allowed say 3 percent variation and Hodgdon may have allowed 5 percent. They were the same powders, just allowed burning rate range was different. There could be complete overlap or there could have been some Hodgdon versions that were out of range of the Winchester powders. The differences would show up in load guides just like lot to lot variations and using the load data interchangeably most likely the end user wouldn't be able to tell any difference that they don't notice from can to can. I have interchanged their load data for many years. Before Hodgdon got the deal to distribute the Winchester powders W-748 was fairly tightly controlled in burning rate from can to can. Now there are often fairly large differences from can to can and it doesn't have Hodgdon powder match. The differences are more noticeable in rifle powders. The powders that are same powders only differed in looking like larger lot to lot variations of the same powders, which is what it was. It has been known they are the same powders for a long time. Hodgdon bought IMR powders and their lot to lot variations have increased since.

Cool, thanks for clarifying that. I could see why someone would have wanted the WW versions, for rifle anyway.

fredj338
09-05-2011, 13:18
Yes I know. The Hodgdon versions of those powders were from bulk lots and blended to Hodgdon's specs. The powders were exactly the same powders except that Hodgdon allows more variation from lo to lot of their powders than Winchester did of their powders. For example Winchester may have have allowed say 3 percent variation and Hodgdon may have allowed 5 percent. They were the same powders, just allowed burning rate range was different. There could be complete overlap or there could have been some Hodgdon versions that were out of range of the Winchester powders. The differences would show up in load guides just like lot to lot variations and using the load data interchangeably most likely the end user wouldn't be able to tell any difference that they don't notice from can to can. I have interchanged their load data for many years. Before Hodgdon got the deal to distribute the Winchester powders W-748 was fairly tightly controlled in burning rate from can to can. Now there are often fairly large differences from can to can and it doesn't have Hodgdon powder match. The differences are more noticeable in rifle powders. The powders that are same powders only differed in looking like larger lot to lot variations of the same powders, which is what it was. It has been known they are the same powders for a long time. Hodgdon bought IMR powders and their lot to lot variations have increased since.
That alone makes them diff powders. If the burn rate is diff, then the powder by definition is diff. Powders can have sim or nearly identical burn rates & be diff. Unique & WSF are nearly identical but diff. Slightly diff, but diff still. Same for W296 & H110. The older lots gave diff results over the chronograph. I loaded lots of H110 & W296 back in the day, they did perform slightly diff, diff burn rate, diff powder, regardless of how yo uget there.:dunno:

GIockGuy24
09-05-2011, 14:04
That alone makes them diff powders. If the burn rate is diff, then the powder by definition is diff. Powders can have sim or nearly identical burn rates & be diff. Unique & WSF are nearly identical but diff. Slightly diff, but diff still. Same for W296 & H110. The older lots gave diff results over the chronograph. I loaded lots of H110 & W296 back in the day, they did perform slightly diff, diff burn rate, diff powder, regardless of how yo uget there.:dunno:

I would consider them different powders if one brand blended to a different end of the burning rate, fast or slow. If the desired burning rate is the same but the allowed range is slightly larger or smaller I would consider that more in line with quality control or price point. When they were different, there was enough overlap that it didn't seem to make any difference as far as the end user hand loader was concerned. You couldn't count on one always being faster or slower than the other other one.

Recently W-748 seems to be all over the place from older versions and IMR-4895 seems a bit slower than it used to be not long ago.

I remember Winchester used to list a max standard load of 6.8 grains of W-231 with a 185 grain JHP in 45 ACP. Hodgdon used to list 6.6 grains of HP-38 with the same bullet as a +P load. I think the load data for W-296 used to slow it as slightly faster than H-110 in most cartridges, even in the same load guides. There may have been some that went the other way though.

Those powders were blended for each brand name and weren't blended to be the same powders but they came from the same production of powder.

GIockGuy24
09-05-2011, 14:12
I can usually buy Accurate powders a bit cheap than IMR powders. Accurate extruded powders are made in the same plant in Canada as the IMR powders.Accurate discontinued A3100 which was similar to IMR-4831. A4350 is similar to IMR-4350. A2495 is similar to IMR-4895, EXCEPT in rifles without flash hiders, A2495 makes a lot of muzzle flash where IMR-4895 makes very little flash. The most interesting one I found is A4064 which is a short grain powder and I can't tell any difference between it and IMR-4320 which is also a short grain powder. I can't find much load data for A4064 in cartridges I use but I can find IMR-4320 load data. I've been working up from IMR-4320 starting loads using A4064, so far with good results.

freakshow10mm
09-05-2011, 21:07
Different lots burn at different rates but are still the same powder. W231 and HP38 are the same powder, the powder being SMP231 from St Marks. Different lots of production have different burn rates. Those that are the same are sold as canister powders. Those that aren't are kept for commercial use.