Kinda off topic: Jack, and anyone with black powder experience, [Archive] - Glock Talk

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geofri
09-05-2011, 08:59
Helped an old friend put in a wood floor yesterday, and before I left he said he had an old box of gun stuff for me.


He doesn't remember if it's safe to shoot, or even made to shoot at all.

A friend of his carved the powder horn. He wasn't sure about the the powder flask.. said could be from the civil war, but was probably a replica. Anyone have some insight on this pile o' stuff?
Ways to tell if its a working model or not? I'd want to take it to a smith before I actually shot it, but if there is an easy way to tell without taking it in that would save me some time.

Would taking it apart and cleaning it up be detrimental to value? Are they easy to disassemble/reassemble?

I don't even know where to start learning about stuff so old it might have even been before Jack's time..:wow:

El_Ron1
09-05-2011, 09:01
Tools of the domestic terrorists!

GioaJack
09-05-2011, 10:18
You do know that children should not be around or touch dangerous explosives, don't you? Seek adult supervision before you get anywhere near that stuff... you certainly want to live long enough to reach puberty.

Now, on to your very poor and amateurish photo. (Enroll in PCJim's school of firearms photography.)

The pistol itself is most likely a home built kit replica that has been shot and handled very little based on lack of finish wear on the grip and fore end. Generally these pistols are loaded in a vertical stand which makes it almost impossible to keep the cap on the grip from becoming marred. It's obviously a flintlock, (the only real way to shoot), but it's impossible to determine the actual caliber. (The lead round balls in the two containers appear to be .50 caliber or greater but it's very hard to be exact. They may or may not be cast, due to your lack of stellar photography I can't tell if they have a sprue cut or not.

The rest of the stuff in the photo is all modern. The 3 wooden rods with the palm swells are short-starters, used to ram the ball partially down the barrel after the patch is cut. (Non of them appear long enough to fully seat the ball against the breach... this would either take a longer short-starter which would also double as a ramrod, (not unusual with a short barreled pistol), or a separate ramrod, sometime called a wiping rod.

The rod under the barrel is not a functional ramrod, it is too thin to be functional, (it should be close to bore diameter.) It is most likely a brass or other metal rod that is used to add weight to the front of the gun for balance, (again, not unusual for a competition gun but pretty unusual for a wall hanger or cheap replica.)

The small powder horn is the 'priming horn' which is used to prim the flash pan. This normally contains FFFFG granulation powder. (/for competition I use 7FG powder if the humidity is not high.)

The large horn is the main charging horn and is normally filled with either FFG or FFFG granulation powder. (Pilgrims use FFG granulation, those who can spell cat without being spotted the C and the T use FFFG powder. (Never load directly from the powder horn, always pour the powder into some type of measure then pour that down the barrel unless you feel that God gave you too many fingers and eyes.)

The metal flask is probably used to carry round balls when in the field. It should have a wooden plug that fits in a hole in the top so one ball at a time can be poured out or a thumb-activated spring clip that does the same thing. If it has a threaded hole in the top then different size powder measure tubes can be screwed into it and it can be used as a powder flask.

The box to the right contain brass powder measures, one of them with a funnel that fits in the barrel so wind doesn't blow the powder away while you're loading.

Although not the newest can design the two cans are GOEX black powder, (one of the best brands produced)... one can contains FFG granulation, can't tell what the other one is. Should be FFFFG for priming the pan.

The bag containing the TC rifle flints is evidence that the original owner was a pilgrim... no one uses that crap... English black flints are the way to go. Never, ever synthetic flints, they will destroy your frizzen.

The bottles of Spit Patch are used to lube your cloth patch before you seat your bullet over the powder. Almost anything can be used as a lube in a pinch... saliva actually works very well, just let a length of patching material hand out of your mouth while you're taking a shot and it will be moist enough by the time you're ready to load again.

Okay, I'm going to get more coffee, if you have any more questions wait until school tomorrow and ask your 5th grade teacher. :whistling:


Jack

unclebob
09-05-2011, 10:51
Surprised that jack missed it. But the pistol is missing the flash pan.

WiskyT
09-05-2011, 10:53
It looks like you have plain, and salted balls.

GioaJack
09-05-2011, 11:00
Told you I needed more coffee, Old Man... leave me alone. I'm in a bad mood, they cancelled NASCAR last night.


Jack

unclebob
09-05-2011, 11:34
Told you I needed more coffee, Old Man... leave me alone. I'm in a bad mood, they cancelled NASCAR last night.


Jack

They are racing Tuesday. Hopefully this crap will be out of here by then.

norton
09-05-2011, 11:44
Surprised that jack missed it. But the pistol is missing the flash pan.

It looks like its missing the frizzen. When the flint that is mounted in the jaws drops on the frizzen it creates sparks that ignite the powder in the pan. The flash over from that then ignites the powder in the barrel through the touch hole. Ain't going to go flash bang like that.
I agree it looks like a kit gun. No offense, but your pistol stock is kind of boxy looking. Back in the 1970's you could buy kits to build guns like those at K Mart and other mass marketers. They were very popular during the 200th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence -For the math challenged like myself, that would be 1976. -

geofri
09-05-2011, 17:36
Terribly sorry for the atrociousness of prior posted photo, Jack. I forgot how hard it is to read the internet with a handheld magnifying glass and those old eyes.

Here are a few more attempts to give a more clear picture of what we are dealing with.

Kinda crude workmanship, so maybe it is one of he kits mentioned above..
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0660.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0653.jpg

The "ramrod"(cleaning rod ? if its to thin to ram lead, as jack said) Most of the stamped lettering is worn off, but it says something like"[...] (low fuming) med under us patent"
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0657.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0656.jpg

geofri
09-05-2011, 17:40
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0655.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0654.jpg


Balls, .439" and .488"( the larger don't come close to fitting into the barrel)
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/andygeofri/IMG_0661.jpg

adv
09-05-2011, 17:58
Did Jack sell his CC pistol to you?

geofri
09-05-2011, 18:56
Tools of the domestic terrorists!

Did Jack sell his CC pistol to you?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

GioaJack
09-05-2011, 19:07
Can't say that I've ever seen measurements like that before. As an example, a .45 cal single pistol would use a .445 cal ball, (same as a rifle), while the same caliber revolver uses a .457 cal ball since no patching is used.

The .439 size round balls would indicate a .44 cal since a patch would be used. Those balls appear to be swaged while the larger balls are cast... with either a loose or defective sprue plate.

The top picture of the barrel and rod shows that it's threaded so it could be used as a ramrod/cleaning rod by screwing a jag onto the end. this would tend to make me believe even more that it's a kit since most original rods held under the barrel with thimbles had a slightly flared, concave brass tip on the end for seating the ball. Most modern rods are threaded for jags, stuck patch removers, stuck ball removers, etc.

You can probably get a better idea of it's age and whether it's a kit or not by pulling the lock, (remove the two screws on the off side then wiggle the lock loose), and inspect the springs, tooling and inletting.

If it's original, (which I don't think it is but don't take my word for it), there should be some proof marks on the barrel and the inside plate of the lock.


Jack

geofri
09-05-2011, 19:27
Tools of the domestic terrorists!
:rofl:

You do know that children should not be around or touch dangerous explosives, don't you? Seek adult supervision before you get anywhere near that stuff... you certainly want to live long enough to reach puberty.

Now, on to your very poor and amateurish photo. (Enroll in PCJim's school of firearms photography.)

The pistol itself is most likely a home built kit replica that has been shot and handled very little based on lack of finish wear on the grip and fore end. Generally these pistols are loaded in a vertical stand which makes it almost impossible to keep the cap on the grip from becoming marred. It's obviously a flintlock, (the only real way to shoot), but it's impossible to determine the actual caliber. (The lead round balls in the two containers appear to be .50 caliber or greater but it's very hard to be exact. They may or may not be cast, due to your lack of stellar photography I can't tell if they have a sprue cut or not.

The rest of the stuff in the photo is all modern. The 3 wooden rods with the palm swells are short-starters, used to ram the ball partially down the barrel after the patch is cut. (Non of them appear long enough to fully seat the ball against the breach... this would either take a longer short-starter which would also double as a ramrod, (not unusual with a short barreled pistol), or a separate ramrod, sometime called a wiping rod.

The rod under the barrel is not a functional ramrod, it is too thin to be functional, (it should be close to bore diameter.) It is most likely a brass or other metal rod that is used to add weight to the front of the gun for balance, (again, not unusual for a competition gun but pretty unusual for a wall hanger or cheap replica.)

The small powder horn is the 'priming horn' which is used to prim the flash pan. This normally contains FFFFG granulation powder. (/for competition I use 7FG powder if the humidity is not high.)

The large horn is the main charging horn and is normally filled with either FFG or FFFG granulation powder. (Pilgrims use FFG granulation, those who can spell cat without being spotted the C and the T use FFFG powder. (Never load directly from the powder horn, always pour the powder into some type of measure then pour that down the barrel unless you feel that God gave you too many fingers and eyes.)

The metal flask is probably used to carry round balls when in the field. It should have a wooden plug that fits in a hole in the top so one ball at a time can be poured out or a thumb-activated spring clip that does the same thing. If it has a threaded hole in the top then different size powder measure tubes can be screwed into it and it can be used as a powder flask.

The box to the right contain brass powder measures, one of them with a funnel that fits in the barrel so wind doesn't blow the powder away while you're loading.

Although not the newest can design the two cans are GOEX black powder, (one of the best brands produced)... one can contains FFG granulation, can't tell what the other one is. Should be FFFFG for priming the pan.

The bag containing the TC rifle flints is evidence that the original owner was a pilgrim... no one uses that crap... English black flints are the way to go. Never, ever synthetic flints, they will destroy your frizzen.

The bottles of Spit Patch are used to lube your cloth patch before you seat your bullet over the powder. Almost anything can be used as a lube in a pinch... saliva actually works very well, just let a length of patching material hand out of your mouth while you're taking a shot and it will be moist enough by the time you're ready to load again.

Okay, I'm going to get more coffee, if you have any more questions wait until school tomorrow and ask your 5th grade teacher. :whistling:


Jack

I beat the odds and survived testing out the power already(not in the gun):supergrin:


Questions noted, and saved for class.


On a serious note, thanks. All your descriptive paragraphs matched up to everything. Metal flask has threads in the cap, and one of the brass pipes does fit the threading.

Wouldn't using saliva to lube patches dampen the blackpowder? Why is lube necessary (gonna regret asking that one:whistling:..)

It looks like you have plain, and salted balls.

That a joke, or an actual term? does pure lead corrode that much?

It looks like its missing the frizzen. When the flint that is mounted in the jaws drops on the frizzen it creates sparks that ignite the powder in the pan. The flash over from that then ignites the powder in the barrel through the touch hole. Ain't going to go flash bang like that.
I agree it looks like a kit gun. No offense, but your pistol stock is kind of boxy looking. Back in the 1970's you could buy kits to build guns like those at K Mart and other mass marketers. They were very popular during the 200th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence -For the math challenged like myself, that would be 1976. -

After googling "frizzen" It appears you are correct! Yes, very boxy grip. Not ergonomic at all!

WiskyT
09-05-2011, 19:38
:rofl:



That a joke, or an actual term? does pure lead corrode that much?





It was a humorous reference to the peanut can they were in. Also, any reference to "nuts", and especially "salty nuts", usually results in childish giggles from the cretans that frequent this forum and should therefore be taken as prima facie evidence of a joke.

And yes, lead does corrode like that. They also could have been tumbled in some type of powdered lube like Hornady does with their lead cartridge bullets.

geofri
09-05-2011, 20:10
Hah. wow, a little slow today! I guess they were in a can of peanuts!

GioaJack
09-05-2011, 20:20
Patching material, (the most common form of it for non-competitive shooting is actual pillow ticking... thicker patching is usually used for tighter ball to barrel fit), is moistened, (not soaked) with patch lube. The moistened patch keeps the powder fouling soft in the barrel which allows for more shots in between swabbing the barrel.

Depending on the powder granulation and the actual charge there is a limited number of shots that can be made before the barrel gets so fouled you can no longer ram a ball down the barrel.

The better the lube the better the accuracy and the less fouling left behind with every shot. Although certainly not an ideal lube saliva is by far better than using a dry patch. It is not unusual to use saliva when hunting since only a very limited number of shots will be taken.


Jack

Zut
09-06-2011, 05:24
Get it inspected by a competent black powder gunsmith before you even think about shooting it. Odds are good that the breech area inside the barrel is badly corroded and a serious safety hazard. You can get all the spare parts you need to fix the lock at http://www.trackofthewolf.com

geofri
09-06-2011, 08:30
Patching material, (the most common form of it for non-competitive shooting is actual pillow ticking... thicker patching is usually used for tighter ball to barrel fit), is moistened, (not soaked) with patch lube. The moistened patch keeps the powder fouling soft in the barrel which allows for more shots in between swabbing the barrel.

Depending on the powder granulation and the actual charge there is a limited number of shots that can be made before the barrel gets so fouled you can no longer ram a ball down the barrel.

The better the lube the better the accuracy and the less fouling left behind with every shot. Although certainly not an ideal lube saliva is by far better than using a dry patch. It is not unusual to use saliva when hunting since only a very limited number of shots will be taken.


Jack

I see.. Very interesting.

Get it inspected by a competent black powder gunsmith before you even think about shooting it. Odds are good that the breech area inside the barrel is badly corroded and a serious safety hazard. You can get all the spare parts you need to fix the lock at http://www.trackofthewolf.com

Oh cool, thanks! When I have time, I'll look up, and order my missing piece.

norton
09-06-2011, 17:02
Thought you might like to see this. My Dad bought this kit at K mart many years ago. He put together several of the kits, this one is the Ethan Allen Pepperbox. He paid $37.95 for it.

WiskyT
09-06-2011, 17:16
Thought you might like to see this. My Dad bought this kit at K mart many years ago. He put together several of the kits, this one is the Ethan Allen Pepperbox. He paid $37.95 for it.

It looks like Jack put it togeather. In fact, it looks like Jack took the picture too:wavey:

norton
09-06-2011, 17:21
Jack, he's making fun of us again.

GioaJack
09-06-2011, 17:53
What'da ya mean us... you're the one who took and posted the picture.


Jack

norton
09-06-2011, 18:25
Damn you kids, stay off my lawn!