What do you think? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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achysklic
09-11-2011, 06:10
Being it is 9-11, I thought I would bring up a couple of points and ask how do you feel about it.


1) The mayor of NY has asked No prayers be given during the memorial today (even though the mayor at the time asked a priest to go into the twin towers and pray and he ended up losing his life)

2) A christian church wants to be constructed within a block of Ground Zero. No support is being given and it will prob. not be built.

3) The muslim mosque will be built and has recieved federal grants to aid in building it.


It's sad that NY has a atheist mayor whom lets this happen!

Dyerbill
09-11-2011, 06:18
What do you think......................................

We live in a counrty thats going to hell in a handbag:crying:Buy yourself a gun and ammo and be ready time is short:upeyes:

Brasso
09-11-2011, 08:53
Before the end, believers, even those who don't know they're believers, will be begging to go home.

relayman
09-11-2011, 08:57
The Mayor of New York is a ******** in more ways than you listed .

fgutie35
09-11-2011, 09:09
Prophecy is going as planned. We are right on schedule.:whistling:

Paul7
09-11-2011, 09:53
I'm not watching the ceremony due to Bloomberg's stupidity. I think they should have organized an alternate ceremony that included religion. I guess because he's an atheist everyone else has to be also.

Kingarthurhk
09-11-2011, 10:12
Prophecy is going as planned. We are right on schedule.:whistling:

Please elaborate.

Mushinto
09-11-2011, 14:34
The government should stay out of religion. I doubt if this was the mayor's decision alone, but it is the correct one.

The mayor is still a lying SOB.

achysklic
09-11-2011, 15:28
The government should stay out of religion. I doubt if this was the mayor's decision alone, but it is the correct one.

The mayor is still a lying SOB.

The government was founded on religion.....Does it bother you even our money supports God?

NMG26
09-11-2011, 15:30
Being it is 9-11, I thought I would bring up a couple of points and ask how do you feel about it.


1) The mayor of NY has asked No prayers be given during the memorial today (even though the mayor at the time asked a priest to go into the twin towers and pray and he ended up losing his life)

2) A christian church wants to be constructed within a block of Ground Zero. No support is being given and it will prob. not be built.

3) The muslim mosque will be built and has recieved federal grants to aid in building it.


It's sad that NY has a atheist mayor whom lets this happen!


I don't blame 9-11 on the muslim religion.

I blame it on religion. Religious extremists for political gain.

I think it is foolish and naive for the Mosque builders to think that they will not be in for a heap of hate pointed their way. Religious people tend to like be hated, I think. It is a persecution complex. They score points with God if they are hated by the infidels.

Animal Mother
09-11-2011, 21:43
The government was founded on religion. No, it wasn't.
....Does it bother you even our money supports God?And that happened in the 1950s

steveksux
09-11-2011, 21:54
We played a gig today. Had a moment of silence for 911, played taps. Someone sang the national anthem. Hardly anyone stood up for that.

Kind of sad. You'd think at least on this day...

Randy

Tilley
09-11-2011, 22:11
No, it wasn't.


You are wrong.

Akil8290
09-11-2011, 22:31
No, it wasn't.
And that happened in the 1950s

About the same time we added "under God," to the Pledge of Allegiance.

HotRoderX
09-11-2011, 22:34
Didn't a Major Hurricane hit New York leaving them with out power for almost a week? :dunno:

achysklic
09-12-2011, 05:46
No, it wasn't.



Yes it was founded on religion, sorry your atheist beliefs were not honored,

Animal Mother
09-12-2011, 06:37
You are wrong.No, I'm not.

Animal Mother
09-12-2011, 06:58
Yes it was founded on religion, sorry your atheist beliefs were not honored,No, it wasn't. Despite Barton's fantasies and falsehoods to the contrary, the US was founded much more on the ideas of Locke, Rousseau, and de Vattel than religion.

ksg0245
09-12-2011, 07:55
Yes it was founded on religion, sorry your atheist beliefs were not honored,

Could you please point out where in the founding documents this is clearly stated?

Brucev
09-12-2011, 09:02
1) The mayor of NY has asked No prayers be given during the memorial today (even though the mayor at the time asked a priest to go into the twin towers and pray and he ended up losing his life). The mayor is a political animal. In this as in any other matter, he conducts himself as the animal he is. No surprise. That his request led to the death of anyone including the priest is likely to him of no consequence. This observance is no different to people like him than the next shot taken in a golf game. You play the shot for score. He's playing the shot. That is all. To expect anything more of him is irrational.

2) A christian church wants to be constructed within a block of Ground Zero. No support is being given and it will prob. not be built. There was a Christian church (I believe Greek Orthodox) somewhere in the immediate vicinity I believe. It has been a long time since I did any reading about the matter. It does not appear that they will be able to keep their location. IIRC, their property is being used for other purposes. Again, it has been a long time since I did any reading on this matter. This is what I remember. Others so interested are welcomed to do the research. If what I remember is correct, it does raise the question as to why they are not being allow to reconstruct their Church.

3) The muslim mosque will be built and has recieved federal grants to aid in building it. Simply read the response to item 1 above. If the mayor is an atheist, then that is no surprise in a political animal. Such people have no moral center. Their decisions are driven by whatever advances their own interest and agenda. In this case, the votes, etc. that will be gained by those making this decision drives their decision. Nothing else matters. They are one and all... political animals. One should never be surprised by how such animals act. In the zoo, at least there are bars to protect the public.


It's sad that NY has a atheist mayor whom lets this happen![/QUOTE]

fgutie35
09-12-2011, 09:07
Please elaborate.

The Fatima letters and other testimonies from other visionaries that coincidentially align to the book of John, with more in depth details. They showed it on the history channel the other day.

ArtificialGrape
09-12-2011, 11:12
Didn't a Major Hurricane hit New York leaving them with out power for almost a week? :dunno:

So are you in the camp of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and suggesting that bad things that happen to the United States are because God has lifted his veil of protection for the US because the country has become to tolerant of gays, feminists, etc.? Perhaps the power outage was just a warning before a real disaster is unleashed?

-ArtificialGrape

A Pat Robertson Top 10 List. (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1953778,00.html)

ArtificialGrape
09-12-2011, 11:24
Yes it was founded on religion, sorry your atheist beliefs were not honored,
Please elaborate. The Unitarian/deistic views common to the Founders such as Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Monroe would make them as unorthodox and heretical today as your views on the Trinity.

-ArtificialGrape

Cream Soda Kid
09-12-2011, 14:25
Please elaborate. The Unitarian/deistic views common to the Founders such as Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Monroe would make them as unorthodox and heretical today as your views on the Trinity.

-ArtificialGrape

AG, I thought Washington was a devout Episcopalian, is that not true? (this is a sincere question, not trying to be argumentative) <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

ArtificialGrape
09-12-2011, 14:40
AG, I thought Washington was a devout Episcopalian, is that not true? (this is a sincere question, not trying to be argumentative) <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

No problem, his behavior was largely deistic -- see bullet 2 below...

George Washington
While George Washington did regularly accompany his wife to church, he did not stay around for communion on Sacrament Sundays. After a sermon was given regarding "those in elevated stations who invariably turned their backs upon the celebration of the Lord's Supper" Washington rightly concluded that it was directed at him, and he never again attended church on a Sacrament Sunday.
His speeches and communcations conveyed more the beliefs of a deist. He seldom referred to Christianity, more rarely to Jesus, and generally opted for terms such as "Providence", "Maker", "Supreme Being", "Grand Architect", etc.
Unfortunately, with only a few exceptions, personal correspondence between George and Martha which could have shed additional insight was destroyed, but the picture is pretty clear that he was not an Orthodox Christian.

-ArtificialGrape

Roering
09-12-2011, 14:51
No problem, his behavior was largely deistic -- see bullet 2 below...

George Washington
While George Washington did regularly accompany his wife to church, he did not stay around for communion on Sacrament Sundays. After a sermon was given regarding "those in elevated stations who invariably turned their backs upon the celebration of the Lord's Supper" Washington rightly concluded that it was directed at him, and he never again attended church on a Sacrament Sunday.
His speeches and communcations conveyed more the beliefs of a deist. He seldom referred to Christianity, more rarely to Jesus, and generally opted for terms such as "Providence", "Maker", "Supreme Being", "Grand Architect", etc.
Unfortunately, with only a few exceptions, personal correspondence between George and Martha which could have shed additional insight was destroyed, but the picture is pretty clear that he was not an Orthodox Christian.

-ArtificialGrape

Around that time there was a popular religious belief of the day known as the watchmaker's theory. A belief that God had created what we knew then to be the universe, set everything in motion to run and then left. At least I think it was around this time. If so, it may explain a lot of the references to God in his speeches.

Schabesbert
09-12-2011, 15:32
Kind of interesting though that every state constitution has an acknowledgement of God in their preamble.

Roering
09-12-2011, 16:25
The mayor of NY has asked No prayers be given during the memorial today

He really asked that? I can see him not offering any prayers being an atheist and all or just being silent on the matter but to ask that NO ONE offer any prayers?

Kind of a an ass to say something like that.

RC-RAMIE
09-12-2011, 16:56
He really asked that? I can see him not offering any prayers being an atheist and all or just being silent on the matter but to ask that NO ONE offer any prayers?

Kind of a an ass to say something like that.

Has he come out and said he was a atheist I can't find it anywhere.

ArtificialGrape
09-12-2011, 17:10
Kind of interesting though that every state constitution has an acknowledgement of God in their preamble.
Interesting perhaps, but would you argue that it was the intent of the Founding Fathers to form a Christian nation, or was it merely a nation with a Christian majority?

-ArtificialGrape

I will gladly play the villain if it will unite you and achy into some brotherly love bonding over a common evil. ;)

Sharkey
09-12-2011, 19:56
I don't blame 9-11 on the muslim religion.

I blame it on religion. Religious extremists for political gain.



That's funny, cuz I think of WTC, USS Cole, the Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, 911, the murders at Fort Hood, and an alleged plot to blow up skyscrapers in Dallas and blame Islam.

Bloomberg is a moron politician
The Greek Orthodox Church at Ground Zero should be rebuilt
The Mosque by the Cordoba Institute should not be built at Ground Zero.

Of course, I'm not labeled a patriot for that but rather a Islamophobe, terrorist, and bigoted. This country is so screwed up. It's like freakin' Bizarro World.

NMG26
09-12-2011, 20:16
Of course, I'm not labeled a patriot for that but rather a Islamophobe, terrorist, and bigoted. This country is so screwed up. It's like freakin' Bizarro World.


Wow Sharkey........glad you got that off your chest.

Sharkey
09-12-2011, 20:41
Wow Sharkey........glad you got that off your chest.


Me too.
If I'm mistaken about the remark in some way, I'm open to suggestions.
Just answering the OP's question.

I figured we have enough "Christians believe in fairy tales and some aren't even Christians while atheism is proven" threads going on around here.

I just don't see a bunch of Christians or Jews shouting God is Great and then blowing themselves and other people up.

Paul7
09-12-2011, 21:03
That's funny, cuz I think of WTC, USS Cole, the Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, 911, the murders at Fort Hood, and an alleged plot to blow up skyscrapers in Dallas and blame Islam.

Bloomberg is a moron politician
The Greek Orthodox Church at Ground Zero should be rebuilt
The Mosque by the Cordoba Institute should not be built at Ground Zero.

Of course, I'm not labeled a patriot for that but rather a Islamophobe, terrorist, and bigoted. This country is so screwed up. It's like freakin' Bizarro World.


CRANMER’S LAW: “No matter how decent, intelligent or thoughtful the reasoning of a conservative may be, as an argument with a liberal is advanced, the probability of being accused of ‘bigotry’, ‘hatred’ or ‘intolerance’ approaches 1 (100%).”

SCmasterblaster
09-12-2011, 21:24
What do you think......................................

We live in a counrty thats going to hell in a handbag:crying:Buy yourself a gun and ammo and be ready time is short:upeyes:

AMEN, brother!

Syclone538
09-12-2011, 23:17
Being it is 9-11, I thought I would bring up a couple of points and ask how do you feel about it.


1) The mayor of NY has asked No prayers be given during the memorial today (even though the mayor at the time asked a priest to go into the twin towers and pray and he ended up losing his life)
...

So far, I don't know enough about the situation, so you'll have to forgive me if I make assumptions that are not the case. If a mayor asks speakers to not lead the crowd in prayer at an event organized and paid for by .gov, I understand that, even if I probably wouldn't have said anything.

...
2) A christian church wants to be constructed within a block of Ground Zero. No support is being given and it will prob. not be built.
...

:dunno: I don't get it, what's the point?

What is stopping it from being built? Who were you expecting support from???

...
3) The muslim mosque will be built and has recieved federal grants to aid in building it.


It's sad that NY has a atheist mayor whom lets this happen!

Seems unconstitutional to me, and someone should sue over it.

Tilley
09-14-2011, 22:29
No, I'm not.

Ow! Nice come-back...:nutcheck:

fgutie35
09-15-2011, 06:59
Interesting perhaps, but would you argue that it was the intent of the Founding Fathers to form a Christian nation, or was it merely a nation with a Christian majority?

-ArtificialGrape

I will gladly play the villain if it will unite you and achy into some brotherly love bonding over a common evil. ;)

It was a nation with a christian mayority. Mostly Protestant. You have to go back to England's history at the time of King James to understand What was the intent of the Founding Fathers, when the time came to build a nation. Also read the Magna Carte which was used as a reference for our rights. The reason why they intended to separate state and church, was because they didn't want a religion controlling the government Like the Catholic Church did in England back then. Truth hurts, but nevertheless the truth. Same thing happened in Mexico. What I don't understand, is why the so called intellectuals here on GT base their faith or the lack of on the imperfect human actions of religious leaders? and judge and label such denomination as being the root of all evil. I thought there were smart people here to know better.:whistling:

Animal Mother
09-16-2011, 00:03
It was a nation with a christian mayority. Assuming you meant majority, I don't think anyone here has ever claimed otherwise.
Mostly Protestant. You have to go back to England's history at the time of King James to understand What was the intent of the Founding Fathers, when the time came to build a nation. Also read the Magna Carte which was used as a reference for our rights. The reason why they intended to separate state and church, was because they didn't want a religion controlling the government Like the Catholic Church did in England back then. The Magna Carta was about limiting the power of the King, not the Church.
Truth hurts, but nevertheless the truth. Same thing happened in Mexico. What I don't understand, is why the so called intellectuals here on GT base their faith or the lack of on the imperfect human actions of religious leaders? and judge and label such denomination as being the root of all evil. I thought there were smart people here to know better.:whistling: Other than religious leaders, and their followers, how are we supposed to evaluate the impact of religion?

achysklic
09-16-2011, 06:51
Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Isit not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"

John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Animal Mother
09-16-2011, 07:55
Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…" Really? You're just going to regurgitate Barton?
Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me. Define "evangelical Christian" as used in this paragraph. If so many founders fit that description how is it that every one of your following examples is from a man who most certainly did not? Of the most important founders, how many would be considered Christian by a modern evangelical?

fgutie35
09-16-2011, 08:12
Assuming you meant majority, I don't think anyone here has ever claimed otherwise.

I was following up on AG's comment, but with a different context of what he intended to portray.

The Magna Carta was about limiting the power of the King, not the Church.

Have you read the Magna Carte? Do you know about what happened between King John and Pope Innocent III?

Other than religious leaders, and their followers, how are we supposed to evaluate the impact of religion?

Thru Spirituality. Religion's sometimes failed attempts to make you be aware of your soul and the spiritual realm. Another thing people misinterpret is the word religion, and they tend to associate it with X church or denomination. Religion means to relate as in: what do you relate yourself to. In my faith, I relate myself to Jesus Christ, therefore you can say that my religion is with Christianity. Im not saying that you have misuse the term, but I have seen others here do it time after time, so I decided to include it in this reply.

ArtificialGrape
09-16-2011, 08:19
Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Isit not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"

John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Could you substantiate the claim above that, "Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians."

This may require some research on your part since the article that you plagiarized from without attribution (http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html) does not provide any detail.

I have previously recognized that Samuel Adams, Elias Boudinot and John Jay were orthodox Christians, but a far cry from "most of the fifty-five". For starters none of, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin were orthodox Christians.

Thomas Jefferson:

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.


James Madison:

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect.
In no instance have... the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.


Ben Franklin:

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
Revealed religion has no weight with me.
The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments.


-ArtificialGrape
<hr>
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-Winston Churchill

ArtificialGrape
09-16-2011, 08:31
It was a nation with a christian mayority. Mostly Protestant. You have to go back to England's history at the time of King James to understand What was the intent of the Founding Fathers, when the time came to build a nation. Also read the Magna Carte which was used as a reference for our rights. The reason why they intended to separate state and church, was because they didn't want a religion controlling the government Like the Catholic Church did in England back then. Truth hurts, but nevertheless the truth. Same thing happened in Mexico. What I don't understand, is why the so called intellectuals here on GT base their faith or the lack of on the imperfect human actions of religious leaders? and judge and label such denomination as being the root of all evil. I thought there were smart people here to know better.:whistling:
Sorry, I read your post from my phone yesterday, but did not want to reply from the phone, and forgot about it until Animal Mother replied...

The question remains, would you make and care to support the claim that the Founding Fathers intended to establish the United States as a Christian nation? If so, was the Treaty of Tripoli merely a ruse, Christian takkiya perhaps?

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-16-2011, 12:28
Around that time there was a popular religious belief of the day known as the watchmaker's theory. A belief that God had created what we knew then to be the universe, set everything in motion to run and then left. At least I think it was around this time. If so, it may explain a lot of the references to God in his speeches.
I believe that you are referring to Paley's Watchmaker from 1802 -- George Washington died a few years before that came out. This watchmaker analogy was then reincarnated by Hoyle using the junkyard 747, and Intelligent Design is largely the same argument.

Paley's version predated Darwin's Origins, but Origins demonstrated how a non-guided process could give the appearance of design, and explanations of the fallacies in the argument are widely available.

-ArtificialGrape

fgutie35
09-16-2011, 13:43
Sorry, I read your post from my phone yesterday, but did not want to reply from the phone, and forgot about it until Animal Mother replied...

The question remains, would you make and care to support the claim that the Founding Fathers intended to establish the United States as a Christian nation? If so, was the Treaty of Tripoli merely a ruse, Christian takkiya perhaps?

-ArtificialGrape
I was not making the claim that the intent of the founding fathers was to create a Christian nation. I just elaborated on your comment about a christian majority at the time and how it influenced the writing of our constitution. I don't know if there is any actual supporting documents that clearly states that the intent of the founding fathers was to create a christian nation. My take is, that often they looked at faith and religion to build a nation with morals and ethics that people will follow so they could coexist and be prosperous and grow as a nation, hence the Destiny Manifest.

achysklic
09-16-2011, 17:21
The pilgrims, as you will recall, were, Christians fleeing Europe in order to escape religious persecution, and they literally began their stay in their new land with the words, “In the name of God, Amen.”

The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.
New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

achysklic
09-16-2011, 17:24
Thomas Jefferson:

Written in the front of his personal Bible, he wrote:
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):
“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

In that same letter, he wrote,
“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”

In a letter to William Short on October 31, 1819, he wrote:
“But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country, was Jesus of Nazareth.”

achysklic
09-16-2011, 17:31
George Washington:

In his first general order to his own troops, General Washington said he called on:

‘Every officer and man...to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.’


In a letter to all state governors in June, 1783, he wrote:


"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government--to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their Brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love Mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, Humility, and Pacific temper of mind which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a Happy Nation."

When he proclaimed a National Day of Thanksgiving, he said:


“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...
“Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the twenty-sixth day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these Unites States...that we then may all unite unto him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed...
“And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions...to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue...
“Given under my hand, at the City of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789.”



In his famous Inaugural Address to both Houses of Congress, on April 30, 1789, with his hand on a Bible which was opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28, he said:


“Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.
“In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow citizens at large, less than either.
“No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.
“And in the important revolution just accomplished, in the system of their United government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage ...
“We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked on the experiment.”

achysklic
09-16-2011, 17:36
James Madison:

In September of 1773, in a letter to William Bradford, he wrote:

“I have sometimes thought there could be no stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. Such instances have seldom occurred, therefore they would be more striking and would be instead of a "Cloud of Witnesses."

In 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Madison wrote:

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."


Madison was in the habit of making notes in his personal Bible, wrote this in Acts, Chapter 19:

“Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.
“Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32.
“Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35.
“To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31.
“Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19.
“Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28.
“The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.”

ArtificialGrape
09-18-2011, 15:28
The pilgrims, as you will recall, were, Christians fleeing Europe in order to escape religious persecution, and they literally began their stay in their new land with the words, “In the name of God, Amen.”

The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.
New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

The above quoted, unattributed and plagiarized text comes from faithofourfathers.net (http://www.faithofourfathers.net/) for anybody following along at home. Those that believe the misinformation are most likely going to stop listening once they hear what they would hope to hear.

While important, debunking is probably largely a waste of just as explaining flaws in intelligent design pulls scientists away from other work that they could be performing.

In short: 3 ministers asked Congress for help importing a type and paper to print Bibles locally
then the request shifted to requesting a loan to import the Bibles that would be repaid by the Bible sales
Congress was only considering a loan
the only vote that took place was to change the proposal from importing the type/paper to instead import printed Bibles
the actual vote on the import was delayed and never brought up for a vote
the statement above "Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles" is flat out wrong
anybody interested in reading the details for themselves should consult the Journals of the Continental Congress (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwjc.html).
There are additional distortions around Congress and Bibles from 1780 and 1782, but they're somewhat less interesting, and more than I'm willing to write up at the moment.

It seems to be popular to twist these facts into some endorsement of Christianity that they are not.

-ArtificialGrape<hr>
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-Winston Churchill

achysklic
09-18-2011, 16:00
AG, no response to what I posted about Washington, Jefferson, and Madison?

I bet not since you said I could find any proof and I did!

Also I never claimed anything I posted as being mine, and did you noticed almost all of it was quoted?

Nice attempt at a slight of hand dodge though.

NMG26
09-18-2011, 16:06
AG, no response to what I posted about Washington, Jefferson, and Madison?

I bet not since you said I could find any proof and I did!

Also I never claimed anything I posted as being mine, and did you noticed almost all of it was quoted?

Nice attempt at a slight of hand dodge though.

I thought the quotes from Jefferson where interesting. I think that they are far from showing him to be a fundamentalist Christian though.

Edit:

"My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest." -Thomas Jefferson

Taken from:
http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm









..

achysklic
09-18-2011, 17:38
Thomas Jefferson:

Raised Episcopalian, Jefferson believed that the New Testament had been polluted by early Christians eager to make Christianity palatable to pagans. He believed that they had mixed the words of Jesus with the teaschings of Plato and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. The authentic words of Jesus were still there, he assured his friend, John Adams. He determined to extract the "authentic" words of Jesus from the rubble which he believed surrounded His real words. That book, intended as a primer for the Indians on Christ’s teachings, is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

In 1803, at the request of President Thomas Jefferson, the United States Congress allocated federal funds for the salary of a preacher and the construction of his church. That same year, Congress, again at Jefferson’s request, ratified a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians. Congress recognized that most of the members of the tribe had been converted to Christianity, and Congress gave a subsidy of $100.00 a year for seven years for the support of a priest so that he could “instruct as many ... children as possible.”

“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”

He was opposed to mainstream christianity, I am as well, He did hold on to the genuine teachings of Jesus,

Does this sound like he was not a christian? He wasn't a traditional christian, thank God!

steveksux
09-18-2011, 18:19
Thomas Jefferson:

Raised Episcopalian, Jefferson believed that the New Testament had been polluted by early Christians eager to make Christianity palatable to pagans. He believed that they had mixed the words of Jesus with the teaschings of Plato and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. The authentic words of Jesus were still there, he assured his friend, John Adams. He determined to extract the "authentic" words of Jesus from the rubble which he believed surrounded His real words. That book, intended as a primer for the Indians on Christ’s teachings, is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

In 1803, at the request of President Thomas Jefferson, the United States Congress allocated federal funds for the salary of a preacher and the construction of his church. That same year, Congress, again at Jefferson’s request, ratified a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians. Congress recognized that most of the members of the tribe had been converted to Christianity, and Congress gave a subsidy of $100.00 a year for seven years for the support of a priest so that he could “instruct as many ... children as possible.”

“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”

He was opposed to mainstream christianity, I am as well, He did hold on to the genuine teachings of Jesus,

Does this sound like he was not a christian? He wasn't a traditional christian, thank God!All the Christians I know think the Bible is chock full of pagan nonsense. Yup.. :rofl:

Randy

ArtificialGrape
09-18-2011, 18:54
AG, no response to what I posted about Washington, Jefferson, and Madison?

I bet not since you said I could find any proof and I did!

Also I never claimed anything I posted as being mine, and did you noticed almost all of it was quoted?

Nice attempt at a slight of hand dodge though.

Not a dodge, but why should I dig through my mostly paper-based resources on the founding fathers and prepare and type up a response when within 2 minutes you can Google/cut/paste a new article?

It is very quick and easy to create lies or misinformation or to cut/paste propagate them.

For instance, did you know that 2 in 7 founding fathers had goat leggings for secret ceremonies?

See how easy that was?

David Barton and his ilk have spawned a cottage industry of people debunking their revisionist histories, and it is not and industry that I particularly care to join.

I will provide some additional response later tonight when I'm back at the house though I'm not interested in a battle of Google/cut/paste-fu.

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-18-2011, 21:22
James Madison:

In September of 1773, in a letter to William Bradford, he wrote:

“I have sometimes thought there could be no stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. Such instances have seldom occurred, therefore they would be more striking and would be instead of a "Cloud of Witnesses."

In 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Madison wrote:

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."


Madison was in the habit of making notes in his personal Bible, wrote this in Acts, Chapter 19:

“Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.
“Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32.
“Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35.
“To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31.
“Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19.
“Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28.
“The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.”

For those still playing along at home, the quoted, unattributed and plagiarized text above also comes from faithofourfathers.net (http://www.faithofourfathers.net/madison.html).

I would urge anybody interested in history to steer clear of history as written by Christian apologists.

-ArtificialGrape

I need to grab something to eat -- "the belly of the wicked is empty." (Proverbs 13:25)

*just found this draft reply that I composed and previewed earlier, but never submitted*
*working on a more detailed reply now*

ArtificialGrape
09-18-2011, 22:57
In message 23 of this thread (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17906037#post17906037) I wrote: "Please elaborate. The Unitarian/deistic views common to the Founders such as Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Monroe would make them as unorthodox and heretical today as your views on the Trinity."

Though I've perhaps made some tweaks, I provided details on the faith of a number of the Founders in the Atheist say they are Really Insulted about This thread on 6/24 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17540077#post17540077). I acknowledged then that John Jay and several other Founders were orthodox Christians; however, they were in the minority.

Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Isit not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"

John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

In message 43 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17540077#post17540077) I asked you to substantiate the quote above that I highlighted in red: "Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians." I would again ask that you support this claim, and while it was admittedly not originally yours, given that you presented it as your own I would expect that you could substantiate it.

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-18-2011, 23:00
George Washington:

In his first general order to his own troops, General Washington said he called on:

‘Every officer and man...to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.’


In a letter to all state governors in June, 1783, he wrote:


"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government--to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their Brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love Mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, Humility, and Pacific temper of mind which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a Happy Nation."

When he proclaimed a National Day of Thanksgiving, he said:


“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...
“Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the twenty-sixth day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these Unites States...that we then may all unite unto him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed...
“And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions...to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue...
“Given under my hand, at the City of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789.”



In his famous Inaugural Address to both Houses of Congress, on April 30, 1789, with his hand on a Bible which was opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28, he said:


“Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.
“In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow citizens at large, less than either.
“No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.
“And in the important revolution just accomplished, in the system of their United government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage ...
“We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked on the experiment.”

I appreciate your providing these quotes, because they very well support my point in message 25 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17906770#post17906770) that Washington generally used deistic language. As I said, Washington "seldom referred to Christianity, more rarely to Jesus, and generally opted for terms such as "Providence", "Maker", "Supreme Being", "Grand Architect", etc."

So while you have supported my point, I don't see any support that Washington was an orthodox Christian.

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-18-2011, 23:04
Thomas Jefferson:

Written in the front of his personal Bible, he wrote:
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):
“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

In that same letter, he wrote,
“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”

In a letter to William Short on October 31, 1819, he wrote:
“But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country, was Jesus of Nazareth.”




Again, Jefferson was certainly not orthodox in his beliefs; nothing you quote above indicates otherwise, and details showing his separation from orthodoxy follow:

Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson was a restorationist, and probably most aligned with Unitarians. Due to possibly the rural nature of churches and related limited options, or perhaps in deference to his upbringing, Jefferson's participation largely remained with the Episcopal Church of his childhood.
Jefferson found the teachings of Jesus to have been spoiled by the power-hungry and corrupt. He referred to the Apostle Paul as the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
Jefferson considered Jesus a moral exemplar, but discounted the miracles and supernatural -- a position that C.S. Lewis finds untenable.
As most people probably know, he created his own Jefferson Bible (New Testament). He removed from the Gospels anything appearing unreasonable (prophecies and miracles); he removed Revelation, all the letters of Paul as well as letters of Peter, John, James and Jude; his New Testament ended with the death of Jesus -- anybody interested can pick it up for about $2 at the Amazon Kindle store and download a free reader.
When Jefferson sent his edited New Testament (what he called his Syllabus) to his secretary and former protege, William Short, in 1820, Jefferson explained:While this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no imposter himself, but a great Reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all of his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism. He preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it, etc., etc.
It is the innocence of his character, the purity and sublimity of his moral precepts, the eloquence of his inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which he conveys them, that I so much admire; sometimes, indeed, needing indulgence to eastern hyperbolism. My eulogies, too, may be founded on a postulate which all may not be ready to grant. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples.
-ArtificialGrape<hr>
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. --Thomas Jefferson
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. --Thomas Jefferson

ArtificialGrape
09-19-2011, 00:52
James Madison:

In September of 1773, in a letter to William Bradford, he wrote:

“I have sometimes thought there could be no stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. Such instances have seldom occurred, therefore they would be more striking and would be instead of a "Cloud of Witnesses."
Yes, this was a hypothetical scenario that Madison wrote to his friend Bradford where Madison suggested that it could be compelling for somebody at the height of success to suddenly become a minister. The background that you don't cover (and by "you" of course I mean faithofourfathers.net) is that the year prior William Bradford had informed Madison that he had decided not to become a minister. Madison's response was supportive though he did suggest that to Bradford's other course work he should seek "to season them with a little divinity now and then, which like the philosopher's stone, in hands of a good man will turn them and every lawful acquirement into the nature of itself, and make them more precious than fine gold."

In 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Madison wrote:

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
If you are familiar with Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which was written anonymously at the time, then you realize that Madison was arguing passionately to defeat a bill in the Virginia House that would have provided state subsidies to religious organizations. One of the biggest opponents was Patrick Henry, so Madison cleverly worked to get Henry elected governor and out of the way of the legislature.

In Remonstrance Madison made the case for keeping church and state separate. A quote that I have previously provided also came from this document:During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

Madison was in the habit of making notes in his personal Bible, wrote this in Acts, Chapter 19:

“Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.
“Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32.
“Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35.
“To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31.
“Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19.
“Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28.
“The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.”

The books that I flipped through did not mention this, and I decided against just Googling it. However, not knowing when the Bible was annotated, and given that Madison was orthodox into his early 20s, it's not surprising that he would have a marked up Bible.

A few additional points...
James Madison was raised Orthodox Christian, and appeared to remain one into his early-20s by which time his outlook appeared to have taken a deistic shift.
Madison fought for religious freedom at the Virginia state level, and the federal (1st Amendment) level.
He also opposed appointing army, navy and congressional chaplains.
His presidential communication was almost without religious references (an exception would be during the War of 1812 when he kept the language very neutral), and very little is actually known of his personal religious views.
One year prior to his death Sarah Coles Stevenson, wife of an ambassador to Great Britain, wrote to Madison's wife, Dolley, and apologized for displeasing Madison in her response to his view on observance of the Sabbath. The text of the apology suggests that a year prior to his death, Madison held an unorthodox and deistic view of the Sabbath.
It is clear that his wife, Dolley, had left behind the Quaker orthodoxy of her upbringing, but it is not entirely clear if she landed with deism, or as an orthodox Episcopalian. Two letters that she wrote in the 1830s -- 1 of condolences, and 1 to a niece that had visited a fortuneteller -- were not particularly Christian in content.

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-19-2011, 01:25
AG, no response to what I posted about Washington, Jefferson, and Madison?
I have not argued that these Founders (Washington, Jefferson, Madison) were not Christians, I have repeatedly said that they were not orthodox Christians, and I've mentioned several that were such as John Jay and Samuel Adams.
I bet not since you said I could find any proof and I did!
Before you hurt your shoulder patting yourself on your back, I don't see anywhere that you've demonstrated these men to be orthodox -- though you did a good job supporting my argument of Washington using largely deistic language.

Where is any evidence that these men were orthodox Christians? Are they accepting the divinity of Jesus and biblical miracles and the Trinity (an area where I know that you are also unorthodox), and ... orthodox views?

You provided a rather strong claim earlier: "Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians."

You have not begun to support "most" and "many".

Also I never claimed anything I posted as being mine...
Maybe it's just me leaping to wild conclusions, but when somebody posts a response without attributing it to somebody else I generally take that to be their response.

...did you noticed almost all of it was quoted?
Even text that was not in quotation marks was pulled verbatim including typos (such as the word "etemal" rather than "eternal" in the John Adams quote in message 40 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17924081#post17924081)).

Nice attempt at a slight of hand dodge though.
I would hope that anybody with the patience to still be following this thread would recognize 2 things: (1) that I have not dodged responses nor used any sleight of hand, and (2) that I have had to invest significantly more time and effort in the discussion than your Google/cut/paste.

-ArtificialGrape

achysklic
09-19-2011, 06:05
Nice slight of hand AG. Let me point it out for those that might have missed it.

The opening questions was, Was the United States founded on Christianity?

I even though I cut and pasted pasted direct quotes from the founding fathers that you said were Christian.

Here is where your slight of hand takes place you inserted tyhe word "orthodox" in there. I never claimed any of them to be "orthodox".

Infact I claimed just the opposite. I stated they didn't believe in Jesus the same way most protestants today do. Tahts a good thing.

The first puritains were Sabbath keepers, so is that "orthodox"?

Twist and focus on silly things such as cut and paste to slip your slight of hand in is not what I exspected from you AG.

But human nature teaches when one is stuck they will do whatever they can to save face.

Peace brother.

Animal Mother
09-19-2011, 06:12
Nice slight of hand AG. Let me point it out for those that might have missed it.

The opening questions was, Was the United States founded on Christianity?

I even though I cut and pasted pasted direct quotes from the founding fathers that you said were Christian.

Here is where your slight of hand takes place you inserted tyhe word "orthodox" in there. I never claimed any of them to be "orthodox". Didn't you plagiarize and paste:
Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Paul7
09-19-2011, 07:47
Yes, this was a hypothetical scenario that Madison wrote to his friend Bradford where Madison suggested that it could be compelling for somebody at the height of success to suddenly become a minister. The background that you don't cover (and by "you" of course I mean faithofourfathers.net) is that the year prior William Bradford had informed Madison that he had decided not to become a minister. Madison's response was supportive though he did suggest that to Bradford's other course work he should seek "to season them with a little divinity now and then, which like the philosopher's stone, in hands of a good man will turn them and every lawful acquirement into the nature of itself, and make them more precious than fine gold."


If you are familiar with Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which was written anonymously at the time, then you realize that Madison was arguing passionately to defeat a bill in the Virginia House that would have provided state subsidies to religious organizations. One of the biggest opponents was Patrick Henry, so Madison cleverly worked to get Henry elected governor and out of the way of the legislature.

In Remonstrance Madison made the case for keeping church and state separate. A quote that I have previously provided also came from this document:During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.


The books that I flipped through did not mention this, and I decided against just Googling it. However, not knowing when the Bible was annotated, and given that Madison was orthodox into his early 20s, it's not surprising that he would have a marked up Bible.

A few additional points...
James Madison was raised Orthodox Christian, and appeared to remain one into his early-20s by which time his outlook appeared to have taken a deistic shift.
Madison fought for religious freedom at the Virginia state level, and the federal (1st Amendment) level.
He also opposed appointing army, navy and congressional chaplains.
His presidential communication was almost without religious references (an exception would be during the War of 1812 when he kept the language very neutral), and very little is actually known of his personal religious views.
One year prior to his death Sarah Coles Stevenson, wife of an ambassador to Great Britain, wrote to Madison's wife, Dolley, and apologized for displeasing Madison in her response to his view on observance of the Sabbath. The text of the apology suggests that a year prior to his death, Madison held an unorthodox and deistic view of the Sabbath.
It is clear that his wife, Dolley, had left behind the Quaker orthodoxy of her upbringing, but it is not entirely clear if she landed with deism, or as an orthodox Episcopalian. Two letters that she wrote in the 1830s -- 1 of condolences, and 1 to a niece that had visited a fortuneteller -- were not particularly Christian in content.

-ArtificialGrape

And yet a SCOTUS justice appointed by Madison, Joseph Story, said this:

§ 1868. Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [First Amendment on religion], the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.

ArtificialGrape
09-19-2011, 08:30
Nice slight of hand AG. Let me point it out for those that might have missed it.

The opening questions was, Was the United States founded on Christianity?

This question does not appear anywhere in your opening post.

In message 16, regarding the United States, you wrote that, "it was founded on religion" and that "your [Animal Mother's] atheist beliefs were not honored."

I asked if you would "please elaborate".

I even though I cut and pasted pasted direct quotes from the founding fathers that you said were Christian.

Here is where your slight of hand takes place you inserted tyhe word "orthodox" in there. I never claimed any of them to be "orthodox".
I have never represented the Founders that we are discussing as atheists, and in the same "please elaborate" message I pointed out that neither were they (generally) orthodox in their beliefs.

Regarding your statement above where you state that you never claimed any of them to be "orthodox", well you did argue that, "Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians."

I claimed just the opposite. I stated they didn't believe in Jesus the same way most protestants today do. Tahts a good thing.
Perhaps you should more closely read the articles that you plagiarize because earlier you claimed that "most" were (members of churches that were) orthodox and now you are claiming that you never said they were orthodox.

You're not planning to squirm around the quote only describing them as members of orthodox churches and suggesting that they themselves were not orthodox, are you?

If so, why was it relevant to mention their church membership if it has no bearing on their orthodoxy? Would you instead prefer to defend the claim that many were evangelical Christians?

Twist and focus on silly things such as cut and paste to slip your slight of hand in is not what I exspected from you AG.

But human nature teaches when one is stuck they will do whatever they can to save face.
I don't see that I am twisting and focusing on the silly. You have been repeatedly asked to substantiate your statement that, "Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians." I don't suppose that will be forthcoming any time soon, will it?

If you are going to post somebody else's words as your own you should be able to defend them.

Your follow-up messages quoting the Founders mostly generic statements containing religious language neither demonstrates their Christian orthodoxy, nor does it support your still unsupported claim that the United States was "founded on religion".

Who's argument do you think is "stuck"?

-ArificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
09-19-2011, 10:06
And yet a SCOTUS justice appointed by Madison, Joseph Story, said this:

§ 1868. Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [First Amendment on religion], the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.
I'm not certain of the specific point that you're trying to make, and if this is meant to support achysklic's arguments, or refute my message (perhaps both), but I don't find that it convincingly does either.

Story's quote begins with "probably" then goes on to refer to the "sentiment in America". This quote does not claim nor suggest that the Founders shared that sentiment, nor does it claim or suggest that the Constitution provides the federal government any latitude to provide this aid ("encouragement") to Christianity. This is made clear 5 paragraphs later when Story explained that:§ 1873. It was under a solemn consciousness of the dangers from ecclesiastical ambition, the bigotry of spiritual pride, and the intolerance of sects, thus exemplified in our domestic, as well as in foreign annals, that it was deemed advisable to exclude from the national government all power to act upon the subject.
It suggests to me that while it may have been the American sentiment that Christianity receive some preferred status, the Founders displayed enough wisdom to avoid that.

Any chance that you want to help achysklic support his claim that, "Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians"?

-ArtificialGrape