Are Bean Bags an effective way to stop an intruder ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Gasoil4ever
09-11-2011, 09:38
I live in a country that's not mine.

Knowing that foreigners are the prefered target for home robberies over here.

Knowing that i really don't want to even try a local jail and that the rich foreigner will always be wrong if blood is shed.

Are Bean Bags or Plastic OO Buck an efficient solution to face potential threat ?

My issue is that my home door are strong and i have mesh at the windows so the only way intruders can come in is by/through the roof.

So the issue is that when they are in, they can't go out...

So if ever it happens i have to be able to KO them so that i can handcuff them until the cops come in (rater slowly anyways...)

Whats your opinion ?

glock_19guy1983
09-11-2011, 09:56
only if you hit them in the head with it, in which case it could be potentialy fatal anyway.

MrMurphy
09-11-2011, 10:04
They're 'less lethal'. Sometimes they are lethal.

And no, i'd never COUNT on one stopping someone. I've seen several failures. Cops using LL rounds always have live-round backup shooters.

If you pull the trigger on someone, it better be lethal.

Otherwise, a cricket bat or baseball bat is about as effective (and about as 'less' lethal).

michael e
09-11-2011, 10:44
I wouldnt trust them. If you are that worried about having to defend yourself and then going to jail you should move to another country.

bpe5008
09-11-2011, 11:17
I have often thought of this question myself. It is tempting to use an option that would limit the legal consequences. But is it worth the risk of compromising overall effectiveness?

CAcop
09-11-2011, 11:51
They're 'less lethal'. Sometimes they are lethal.

And no, i'd never COUNT on one stopping someone. I've seen several failures. Cops using LL rounds always have live-round backup shooters.

If you pull the trigger on someone, it better be lethal.

Otherwise, a cricket bat or baseball bat is about as effective (and about as 'less' lethal).

What he said.

Gasoil4ever
09-11-2011, 13:43
I wouldnt trust them. If you are that worried about having to defend yourself and then going to jail you should move to another country.

From what i read on this forum its more or less the same in the US... people start thinking about trials every time they pull their gun out... so its something everybody should be concerned with...

I've seen several failures. Cops using LL rounds always have live-round backup shooters.

If you pull the trigger on someone, it better be lethal.

Otherwise, a cricket bat or baseball bat is about as effective (and about as 'less' lethal).

Wait type of failure are we talking about ?

Baseball bat is good, here its more the machete though but its a much closer range...

I have often thought of this question myself. It is tempting to use an option that would limit the legal consequences. But is it worth the risk of compromising overall effectiveness?

I am thinking of having my shotgun fed this way :

3 rubber OO Buckshots, 2 birdshots, 1 OO reduced recoil buckshot

That way i am thinking you have some gradation in the use of letal force

MrMurphy
09-11-2011, 14:41
If you use a firearm, there is NO gradation.

Use of a firearm is a major step in the use of force.

If aiming a shotgun at a guy does not stop him, and he's on your property, and he is enough threat to fire at, you better be loaded hot. Period.

If you need a less-lethal deterrent, you need the party-size pepper spray, preferably a strong one like Fox Labs 5.3. White light (blinding) also works.

Mixing less and lethal in the same gun is a disaster waiting to happen. NO police department anywhere in the world I'm aware of ever mixes less and lethal in the same gun. Most LL guns are painted bright orange, etc so you don't screw up and grab the wrong one.

Again: Baseball bat, pepper spray, shotgun. Not all at once.

vafish
09-11-2011, 14:46
I lived in a foreign country where even their own citizens who had used firearms to defend their homes against armed intruders had been sent to jail for killing the intruders.

My choice for home defense was a suppressed .22 semi auto. I had a couple of tarps for camping and a nice shovel. Never needed any of them.

ChuteTheMall
09-11-2011, 14:48
I'd be mad if someone shot a beanbag at me.:steamed:

If I couldn't retreat, and if he was still shooting beanbags at me, what choice would I have?

Don't toss pebbles at a wild animal if you are both in the same cage.

:okie:

CAcop
09-11-2011, 15:06
Wait type of failure are we talking about ?


You hit them and they continue to do what they want to do.

They are really only good for hitting someone then pouncing on them. It gives you a few seconds for them to stop being a threat long enough for you to close the distance. That is why they are deployed in teams in LE. Somebody pops them with a LL round, another person has a firearm out, and a third (and 4th if possible) has handcuffs ready.

They are why Taser came out with the shotgun rounds at $150 a pop to Taser people from a distance. It gives an arrest team 30 seconds to arrest someone. Of course the cost of qualifing and training is insane so one one really uses them.

nastytrigger
09-11-2011, 15:45
I have 8+1 OO buck's in my shotgun. No less lethal options. Especially if they have a lethal option.


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WoodenPlank
09-11-2011, 16:07
If you use a firearm, there is NO gradation.

Use of a firearm is a major step in the use of force.

If aiming a shotgun at a guy does not stop him, and he's on your property, and he is enough threat to fire at, you better be loaded hot. Period.

If you need a less-lethal deterrent, you need the party-size pepper spray, preferably a strong one like Fox Labs 5.3. White light (blinding) also works.

Mixing less and lethal in the same gun is a disaster waiting to happen. NO police department anywhere in the world I'm aware of ever mixes less and lethal in the same gun. Most LL guns are painted bright orange, etc so you don't screw up and grab the wrong one.

Again: Baseball bat, pepper spray, shotgun. Not all at once.

Absolutely.

I lived in a foreign country where even their own citizens who had used firearms to defend their homes against armed intruders had been sent to jail for killing the intruders.

My choice for home defense was a suppressed .22 semi auto. I had a couple of tarps for camping and a nice shovel. Never needed any of them.

What, no lime?

Aceman
09-12-2011, 19:12
as always, consult your local laws, and choose your actions accordingly.

There is a great thread on this. But again, is is American based.

HotRoderX
09-12-2011, 19:26
I would not wanna put my life on bean bag rounds. I think I take a baseball bat or some other solid object like that.

Meat-Hook
09-12-2011, 20:07
bean bags didnt seem t work to well against this guy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ze1x1Hlykc

David Armstrong
09-13-2011, 09:24
Too many folks getting way too ethnocentric.
Bean bags/rubber buck shells are less lethal, not non-lethal, as pointed out. And they are a pain-compliance tool. I don't know the legal environment in Cameroon, but my experience overseas is always that it is better to hurt a person than to kill them. I think you have a valid option there with an escalation of force. If they comply with the beanbag pain, great. If they don't, another pump of the shotgun allows you to use a more lethal option. The caveat would be that I would not use the beanbag unless I was already in a deadly force situation, as that is a possible outcome. And I would go directly from beanbag to 00 Buck, no intermediate bird shot.

JFrame
09-13-2011, 12:13
as always, consult your local laws, and choose your actions accordingly.

There is a great thread on this. But again, is is American based.

Too many folks getting way too ethnocentric.
Bean bags/rubber buck shells are less lethal, not non-lethal, as pointed out. And they are a pain-compliance tool. I don't know the legal environment in Cameroon, but my experience overseas is always that it is better to hurt a person than to kill them. I think you have a valid option there with an escalation of force. If they comply with the beanbag pain, great. If they don't, another pump of the shotgun allows you to use a more lethal option. The caveat would be that I would not use the beanbag unless I was already in a deadly force situation, as that is a possible outcome. And I would go directly from beanbag to 00 Buck, no intermediate bird shot.


These were among my thoughts regarding a self-defense scenario in a foreign country.

I am reminded of that elderly gentleman in the U.K. who awoke in his bedroom to find it also occupied by three hooligans armed with baseball bats. He managed to reach for a shotgun and proceeded to kill one of the hooligans with it.

That man is currently serving a life sentence in prison. He very likely would have walked in any court in the U.S.

Definitely, one should make decisions based on their own personal commitment and needs -- but local laws need to be factored into those decisions, and one can choose to follow or ignore them based on their own discretion and desire to survive at all costs.


.

Leigh
09-13-2011, 13:21
Country's specific laws aside, once the trigger has been pulled, and a firearm has been discharged, you have just chosen/forced to use deadly physical force.

WoodenPlank
09-13-2011, 19:32
These were among my thoughts regarding a self-defense scenario in a foreign country.

I am reminded of that elderly gentleman in the U.K. who awoke in his bedroom to find it also occupied by three hooligans armed with baseball bats. He managed to reach for a shotgun and proceeded to kill one of the hooligans with it.

That man is currently serving a life sentence in prison. He very likely would have walked in any court in the U.S.

Definitely, one should make decisions based on their own personal commitment and needs -- but local laws need to be factored into those decisions, and one can choose to follow or ignore them based on their own discretion and desire to survive at all costs.


.

If that's the same case I'v read about, he shot two of them. The second hoodlum he shot survived, got out of jail, then sued the homeowner for shooting him. The criminal won the lawsuit. The UK really is disgusting when it comes to self defense. :steamed:

JFrame
09-13-2011, 19:42
If that's the same case I'v read about, he shot two of them. The second hoodlum he shot survived, got out of jail, then sued the homeowner for shooting him. The criminal won the lawsuit. The UK really is disgusting when it comes to self defense. :steamed:


Yes, I believe it's the same case -- and you're right, now that I think of it, there was a second thug who was shot and survived (unfortunately).

As you say, it's disgusting... :steamed:

The worst states in our country force you to make every effort to retreat before using deadly force. Evidently, in the U.K., once you've retreated as far as you can, you must submit to a potentially lethal beating... :burn:


.


.

WiskyT
09-13-2011, 19:47
bean bags didnt seem t work to well against this guy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ze1x1Hlykc

They used the wrong type of beans. Nine 0.33" copper plated lead beans contained in a plastic cup fired at a velocity of 1300fps would have ended that situation.

WoodenPlank
09-13-2011, 20:20
They used the wrong type of beans. Nine 0.33" copper plated lead beans contained in a plastic cup fired at a velocity of 1300fps would have ended that situation.

:rofl:

That it would.

cdog533
09-13-2011, 20:41
Here in the US, if you are using a firearm, you better be using deadly force in response to a deadly threat.

The beanbags are a horrible idea. If you DID kill someone with the beanbags, prosecution would argue that you didn't feel your life was in danger (or you would have used buckshot) and thus your lethal force was no required. You'd be facing prison time and probably sued for everything you have.

There are plenty of non-lethal options: pepper spray, stun gun, your hands, etc. You only reach for a firearm when lethal force is necessary.

The police are different, as they have training on bean bags and their liability is somewhat limited by the state. These things would come into play in a trial.

ManWitaBigStick24
09-14-2011, 01:34
That video should make swat very embarrassed at the least! Once again wasted tax dollars! Very poorly executed!:rofl:

WoodenPlank
09-14-2011, 04:25
That video should make swat very embarrassed at the least! Once again wasted tax dollars! Very poorly executed!:rofl:

Imagine if that happened today. I bet the Taser XREP rounds would have ended it a LOT faster.

vafish
09-14-2011, 05:08
What, no lime?

Too dry, but I did have a couple of places picked out with easy digging. ;)

WoodenPlank
09-14-2011, 06:25
Too dry, but I did have a couple of places picked out with easy digging. ;)

All you need down here is a boat and some weights... :whistling:

David Armstrong
09-14-2011, 12:38
Here in the US, if you are using a firearm, you better be using deadly force in response to a deadly threat.

The beanbags are a horrible idea. If you DID kill someone with the beanbags, prosecution would argue that you didn't feel your life was in danger (or you would have used buckshot) and thus your lethal force was no required. You'd be facing prison time and probably sued for everything you have.
Nope. As mentioned, as long as you restrict the use to what would already be a lethal force scenario you can easily try a less-lethal option. If it results in death it was still a lethal force scenario. Just because you can use lethal force doesn't mean you have to use it. You can always use a non-lethal response to a lethal force scenario, you just can't use a lethal response to a non-lethal scenario.

David Armstrong
09-14-2011, 12:41
That video should make swat very embarrassed at the least! Once again wasted tax dollars! Very poorly executed!:rofl:
Don't know why anyone would say that. SWAT did its job, the bean bags did their job. The guy was contained, did not injure anyone, and he was captured. Looks like pretty good execution.

Gasoil4ever
09-14-2011, 14:58
Yes, I believe it's the same case -- and you're right, now that I think of it, there was a second thug who was shot and survived (unfortunately).

As you say, it's disgusting... :steamed:

The worst states in our country force you to make every effort to retreat before using deadly force. Evidently, in the U.K., once you've retreated as far as you can, you must submit to a potentially lethal beating... :burn:


.


.

I guess that since the 1997 Firearm Act its considered outlawed to defend yourself with a shotgun...

LawScholar
09-14-2011, 16:34
Can bean bags be an effective way to stop an intruder? Perhaps.

Will anyone in my breaking into my house with violent intent get to find out? Nope.

My intruders get to meet Mr. Hornady TAP 00 Buck.

He is VERY effective. ;)

snichols28
09-15-2011, 11:09
Bean bag rounds are effective in stunning and stopping an intruder... Which is perfect if you are wanting that intruder to get a chance to testify against you and your actions in court and if lucky enough to be convicted then you and I get to pay for him to live in jail for a little bit o' time.

kimo
09-15-2011, 11:40
A 75# bean bag will definitely lay the guy out. Building the Trebuchet is fun too.

chuck pullen
09-15-2011, 18:00
I agree with Mr. Murphy and others. If the situation is at a point where you're pulling the trigger on a shotgun, a bean bag is a bad idea. At that point, buckshot is the only reasonable response.

chuck pullen
09-15-2011, 18:07
Second response:

The SWAT response in the posted video seemed ideal. No officer wants to use lethal force until it's unavoidable. The poor crazy SOB was well-contained and not an imminent threat. Those officers did a good job.

wuvmyglock
09-15-2011, 18:24
As long as you follow it up with a round of 00 buck.

David Armstrong
09-15-2011, 18:36
Bean bag rounds are effective in stunning and stopping an intruder... Which is perfect if you are wanting that intruder to get a chance to testify against you and your actions in court and if lucky enough to be convicted then you and I get to pay for him to live in jail for a little bit o' time.
If you think it will be cheaper for you to kill someone than to stun and stop them without any injury you really need to think that over again.

David Armstrong
09-15-2011, 18:39
I agree with Mr. Murphy and others. If the situation is at a point where you're pulling the trigger on a shotgun, a bean bag is a bad idea. At that point, buckshot is the only reasonable response.
And yet so many people, many with lots of experience, have found that was not the only reasonable response over the years.:dunno:

slims00ls1z28
09-15-2011, 20:10
I would use rubber bullets over bean bags unless you are shooting out of the 37mm launcher. I won't claim to be an expert on the subject by any means, but working in corrections for 15 years now I can say with personal assurance that rubber bullets are very effective at stopping people especially within the close confines of a house. I have yet to hear of an instance where an inmate needed to be shot a second time with RB's or lethal ammo unless he was far off or got hit at a distance with a ricochet shot or was wearing magazines. I've seen the videos of full blown riots, major gang fights or minor disturbances etc., and even at 20-25 foot they dropped every time. Drugged, drunk, whatever, they work if used within the proper distance (like inside a house). At less than 10 feet the perpetrator will more than likely be dead than not especially with a head or chest shot. They will, not might, will kill at close range. At less than 10 feet ricochet shots off the floor is the preferred method to deploy them.

I have personally seen many inmates unaffected by all sprays, OC (pepper spray), CS (tear gas basically), or a mix of both, I would count that out first. I can't say I have seen the effects of RB's in real life yet, but we see the training videos (ones you don't see on youtube) which are real life videos of incidents and they are plentiful. I'm sure theres a story or two (as I said I'm not an expert and haven't seen every instance of their employment) of them not working but I also know there several instances of lead bullets not working either, inmates and gunshot wounds are common and I know of 3 headshots (one with a .45ACP) where they are alive and well in prison as well as a cop friend and a certain senator recently. I know of one inmate who claimed to be hit with one pellet in the side. He said he dropped immediatly because it hurt worse than a real bullet.

That's my experience with them. I'm not trying to counter any claims made on teh interwebz. Just what I've seen/heard in my line of work where we actually have/use them. If I can't use lead, I personally would feel comfortable knowing I have a guage with RB's. Within the close confines of the house, if he lives he will no doubt wish he didn't with a direct blast. Just don't try to ricochet shoot them, they will go through drywall instead of bouncing. They are meant to bounce on concrete/steel not wood and drywall.

El_Ron1
09-15-2011, 23:14
I'd rather be a hammer than a nail.

Faulkner
09-17-2011, 20:55
I'd just as soon not get sued by some guy that I shot his eye out with a bean bag round. If it's serious enough to pull the trigger, it's serious enough to get serious with ammo that leaves more than a bruise and a whelp.

Pro 2A
09-17-2011, 21:12
4 rolls of duct tape = $19
100’ of plastic sheeting = $25
1 bag of lime = $10
2 boxes of large black heavy-duty trash bags = $20
1 shovel = $25
Look on the cashier’s face = priceless!