So we had a mandetory, Chrono at our match today. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : So we had a mandetory, Chrono at our match today.


Colorado4Wheel
09-11-2011, 18:26
Yep. Local match. Nothing special. But we set up the chrono box and everyone had to pick a magazine and have the chrono guy shoot the ammo over the chrono. We had about 70 shooters and 11 people went "Minor" and one person shooting minor went "Sub-Minor". So 12 out of 70 failed. That is atrocious. Keep in mind, you got to pick the ammo that was chrono'd. We didn't grab some random magazine. In others words you could have shot your cheater ammo and just loaded a good magazine purely for the chrono.

The chrono guy also said my ammo was the softest shooting of the entire match. It chrono'd 129.7 PF.

It was a interesting day.

Three-Five-Seven
09-11-2011, 18:52
We talkin' 1911s here? If so, surprising that PF operated the pistol.

Colorado4Wheel
09-11-2011, 19:06
Mine is a G34. It functions ok stock with that ammo but I have a 15lb recoil spring in it just to give me a little extra margin. It's very reliable like that. Most, stock 9mm will function OK with 130PF ammo. Mine had chrono'd 132 just two days before with the same chrono.

XDRoX
09-11-2011, 19:17
Is there a formula for figuring PF?

Meathead9
09-11-2011, 19:21
Is there a formula for figuring PF?

Bullet Weight x FPS = PF

Minor = 125,000
Major = 165,000

Colorado4Wheel
09-11-2011, 19:37
My 158gr bullets were going 818-821fps. Pretty small spread. Two days ago my lowest in a string of 10 that I tested was 129PF. Just shows how a small sampling and a different day can really make a difference.

unclebob
09-11-2011, 19:40
All of my 9mm Glocks function with a PF of 124 with stock springs.

XDRoX
09-11-2011, 20:07
Bullet Weight x FPS = PF

Minor = 125,000
Major = 165,000

Thanks.

Zombie Steve
09-11-2011, 20:27
Guess I was shooting 184 at the last match...

:whistling:

Mayhap I'm not much of a gamer.

GioaJack
09-11-2011, 20:34
Don't they just have to be quicker than the bad guy... how fast does a cardboard target run? :dunno:


Jack

unclebob
09-11-2011, 20:49
Don't they just have to be quicker than the bad guy... how fast does a cardboard target run? :dunno:


Jack

How fast can you run holding a target?:supergrin:

fredj338
09-11-2011, 23:01
Many of the local club shooters shooting ESP or SSP & 9mm are fudging the PF IME. Even some of the CDP guys. Not surprising, there are those that just have to win & since they KNOW that local clubs don't check ammo, they fudge. Like cheating on tests in school though, it doesn't prepare you for the real world or a sanctioned match where your ammo will be tested for sure.

WiskyT
09-12-2011, 08:50
In my experience, heavier bullets help function compared to lighter with bith running the same PF. I never loaded for PF, but I found that 115's that wouldn't run my G17 had a PF of "X" and a 147 could be loaded below that PF and still run the gun.

As for gaming, all of that stuff is gaming anyway. I'm not in favor of cheating, but realistically, the guy running a 126PF is not going to be more prepared for a real life encounter than the guy who is running below 125.

fredj338
09-12-2011, 09:06
As for gaming, all of that stuff is gaming anyway. I'm not in favor of cheating, but realistically, the guy running a 126PF is not going to be more prepared for a real life encounter than the guy who is running below 125.


No, but the guys shooting full power ammo of say 135-145PF vs the guy shooting 115PF may be??? Many will say that the recoil doesn't matter, but obviously it does, or the guys fudging the PF wouldn't do it.:whistling: They shoot better w/ bunnyfart loads & not as well w/ full power ammo. SO yes, they are gaming it.
IMO, they should raise the PF for minor, the 40 guys shoot against the 9mm guys & I am not aware of ANY 40 factory that is much less than 150ish, about where good 9mm+P would be, hell even 38sp will make 135, about where minor probably should be set if the intent of IDPA is more realistic shooting & less gaming.:dunno:

MoNsTeR
09-12-2011, 09:25
Loved loved LOVED having an official match chrono, big kudos to whoever had the idea, and to Lizard & Gene for supplying & running it. You always suspect a few people aren't quite making PF but 12 out of 70 is pretty shocking.

(I made a comfortable 170.7 myself...)

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 09:57
Loved loved LOVED having an official match chrono, big kudos to whoever had the idea, and to Lizard & Gene for supplying & running it. You always suspect a few people aren't quite making PF but 12 out of 70 is pretty shocking.

(I made a comfortable 170.7 myself...)

Lizard and I made those chrono boxes years ago. Ever sence I have asked him to do a official chrono. HE always made it optional. I stopped asking a while back. It is his eqipment. Then out of the blue he said ".Lets do a match chrono that counts ". I thought it went great.. Expect to see it again. Gene did a great job with it.

Fwdftw
09-12-2011, 10:03
Makes sense for that to happen.

Hoser
09-12-2011, 10:51
Sorry I missed it.

Crappy results though.

I am glad it counted for score though. You shoot it, you earn it.

ron59
09-12-2011, 11:25
Lizard and I made those chrono boxes years ago. Ever sence I have asked him to do a official chrono. HE always made it optional. I stopped asking a while back. It is his eqipment. Then out of the blue he said ".Lets do a match chrono that counts ". I thought it went great.. Expect to see it again. Jean did a great job with it.

Yep, that sounds great. I know when I first started I was looking for "an edge", quickly found out that 147gr 9mm bullets ran slowly were extremely inaccurate. Boosted them up to 910fps minimum through my G17, much better.

I'd never have any concerns about my ammo being chrono'ed.

Tpro
09-12-2011, 11:35
How long did the chrono process take? Since I don't shoot competitively, I thought maybe that';s why they wouldn't chrono every match. I just ASSumed that all matches were chrono'd:whistling:

If given a chance a cheater always will...

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 11:57
How long did the chrono process take? Since I don't shoot competitively, I thought maybe that';s why they wouldn't chrono every match. I just ASSumed that all matches were chrono'd:whistling:

If given a chance a cheater always will...


We incorporated it into the "Classifier Stage". So we picked a easy to run classifier. Those always go fast. The time that would normally been down time as they wait for the next group to finish the next stage was then spent chronoing. Probably took about 25 mins to chrono the 14 people in our group. Of course no one in our group failed the chrono. We all only had to fire three shoots. That goes fast. Every other group had someone fail. They ended up weighting bullets and all that jazz. Probably took them a lot longer. We went with "declared bullet weight" So we only pulled a bullet if they wanted us to test the weight.

Tpro
09-12-2011, 14:54
So what do you think...were these guy cheating, sloppy reloaders, not working up loads or not having their own chrono to work with?

unclebob
09-12-2011, 15:21
So what do you think...were these guy cheating, sloppy reloaders, not working up loads or not having their own chrono to work with?

maybe, maybe, maybe,maybe. Different temperature from testing to match. Different altitude. Different chronograph. Using book velocity and thinking they are okay. Just to name a few.

GioaJack
09-12-2011, 16:03
Stevie can't accuse other guys of cheating... he shoots an Air Soft pistol and yells BANG every time he pulls the trigger.


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 16:04
A guy in our group was shooting .40 Short and Weak with a 200gr bullet going 1000fps. WAY over any reliable load data.

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 16:13
Many of the local club shooters shooting ESP or SSP & 9mm are fudging the PF IME. Even some of the CDP guys. Not surprising, there are those that just have to win & since they KNOW that local clubs don't check ammo, they fudge. Like cheating on tests in school though, it doesn't prepare you for the real world or a sanctioned match where your ammo will be tested for sure.

I would think this to be the same in a number of clubs. However in mine, I realize that once we get into a couple months just prior to State quite a few get nervous and start asking for those who have a chrono to borrow or get into a chrono session prior to the matches to confirm their loads.
I like the idea of a mid year chrono match and am going to suggest it to our match director and his committee.
Steve what intrigues me the most are those 158s loads of your at 129 PF. What powder are you using and how is the accuracy at 25 yards?

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 16:44
I would think this to be the same in a number of clubs. However in mine, I realize that once we get into a couple months just prior to State quite a few get nervous and start asking for those who have a chrono to borrow or get into a chrono session prior to the matches to confirm their loads.
I like the idea of a mid year chrono match and am going to suggest it to our match director and his committee.
Steve what intrigues me the most are those 158s loads of your at 129 PF. What powder are you using and how is the accuracy at 25 yards?

This was our last sectional qualifier. So results of this mattered.

About the same as factory. Just a little better. I actually want to switch to 125gr bullets but can't do it just yet. My load is 3.2 grs of Solo 1000 behind my 147gr Lyman mold. They had chrono'd at 132PF a couple days earlier. The chrono showed a 3 fps spread between my High and Low shots. But only 3 shots were fired. Most the time I shoot 10. ES in the single digits. The load looks better over the chrono at 132 PF. I don't normally load in the high 120's. So I will probably bump it up a .1gr.

fredj338
09-12-2011, 16:53
I would think this to be the same in a number of clubs. However in mine, I realize that once we get into a couple months just prior to State quite a few get nervous and start asking for those who have a chrono to borrow or get into a chrono session prior to the matches to confirm their loads.
I like the idea of a mid year chrono match and am going to suggest it to our match director and his committee.
Steve what intrigues me the most are those 158s loads of your at 129 PF. What powder are you using and how is the accuracy at 25 yards?
That's the thing though, announce the chrono match & everyone shows up w/ the correct ammo. Instead, they should just pop it on everyone, take them thru one stage w/ the chrono at the beginning. It's only 3rds, would add maybe an extra minute to that stage. Then DQ the offenders. OOPS! Then more guys would play the game by the rules. I have found in any form of comp where there is a way to cheat, there will ALWAYS be guys that cheat.:dunno:
BTW, cheating on the classifier is stupid. SO you cheat & get expert/master. Now you have to shoot against all the experts/masters, not very smart for the guy that wants to win at all costs. Instead, tank the classifier & shoot w/ the guys you can beat all day. I prefer shooting up being pushed by the better shooters, but ya gotta classify up there w/ the big boys to do that.

GioaJack
09-12-2011, 17:00
Fred, I believe that used to be called, sandbagging. I wouldn't know from personal experience of course... it's only what I've heard. :whistling:


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 17:07
That's the thing though, announce the chrono match & everyone shows up w/ the correct ammo. Instead, they should just pop it on everyone, take them thru one stage w/ the chrono at the beginning. It's only 3rds, would add maybe an extra minute to that stage. Then DQ the offenders. OOPS! Then more guys would play the game by the rules. I have found in any form of comp where there is a way to cheat, there will ALWAYS be guys that cheat.:dunno:
BTW, cheating on the classifier is stupid. SO you cheat & get expert/master. Now you have to shoot against all the experts/masters, not very smart for the guy that wants to win at all costs. Instead, tank the classifier & shoot w/ the guys you can beat all day. I prefer shooting up being pushed by the better shooters, but ya gotta classify up there w/ the big boys to do that.

You don't DQ people for failing to make Major when you declare Major. You follow the rules and they get scored Minor. No big deal. They are not "cheating on the classifier" they are shooting minor while declaring Major and doing it match after match after match more then likely. I don't think it makes much of a difference other then in their head and ears. 38Super Comp guns are LOUD. Really LOUD. You can tell if you have a gross offender. I am of the belief that most people (not all) knew they would not make major. In fact several said just that as they handed the Chrono guy their magazine.

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 17:17
You don't DQ people for failing to make Major when you declare Major. You follow the rules and they get scored Minor. No big deal. They are not "cheating on the classifier" they are shooting minor while declaring Major and doing it match after match after match more then likely. I don't think it makes much of a difference other then in their head and ears. 38Super Comp guns are LOUD. Really LOUD. You can tell if you have a gross offender. I am of the belief that most people (not all) knew they would not make major. In fact several said just that as they handed the Chrono guy their magazine.

I think Fred is talking IDPA Steve, I realized you were talking USPSA.

I personally don't know of many guys that would even think of cheating via skimming the PF floor intentionally. I think with most that I wasz trying to explain before they just got started reloading and don't have the resources to chrono and truly develop their loads correctly. Thanking all things in to consideration... velocity, accuracy, reliability and just finding a load that the guns runs good.

cysoto
09-12-2011, 17:22
A guy in our group was shooting .40 Short and Weak with a 200gr bullet going 1000fps. WAY over any reliable load data.

Holy Cow, there is nothing "weak" about that load!!! I don't even use such a high PF for my Bowling Pins load... :shocked:

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 18:01
I think Fred is talking IDPA Steve, I realized you were talking USPSA.


IDPA will DQ you for not making Major? We did have a guy declare Minor and not make Minor. He wasn't DQ'd. He just wasn't shooting for score any longer. He still got to shoot.



I personally don't know of many guys that would even think of cheating via skimming the PF floor intentionally. I think with most that I wasz trying to explain before they just got started reloading and don't have the resources to chrono and truly develop their loads correctly. Thanking all things in to consideration... velocity, accuracy, reliability and just finding a load that the guns runs good.


I get that, but sadly that is not what happened.

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 20:38
IDPA will DQ you for not making Major? We did have a guy declare Minor and not make Minor. He wasn't DQ'd. He just wasn't shooting for score any longer. He still got to shoot.

I get that, but sadly that is not what happened.

There is no major or minor scoring within a division of IDPA so I technically see that as a DQ. (Whether at a local match they let you finish or not is the match directors call) If your shooting CDP and your ammo chronos less than 165, your don't get bumped down to ESP. You failed to meet the qualifying criteria with your ammo used.

Colorado4Wheel
09-12-2011, 20:58
Look at IDPA being all serious and DQing you for not making PF.

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 21:27
Look at IDPA being all serious and DQing you for not making PF.

The PF floor rule in IDPA is just like any other rule, like previously stated there is no inner division scoring criteria, the only possibility of reprieve would be if someone shooting CDP made more than 125,000 but not the division minimum of 165,000; bump the shooter to ESP. Even that is not from the rule book, but seen it done at a few matches. Since there is no major/minor scoring in IDPA, there's "no place to go" if you don't make power factor, DQ.
It is no different from breaking the 180 or dropping a gun in a course. If you happen to do that on any level, you get sent home right? You don't get to shoot the rest of the match with no score and just a warning do you? Personally I do have an issue with the rule, it should be and is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that his ammo makes the minimum required PF.

dougader
09-12-2011, 21:37
When I was shooting IPSC, they'd show up with the chrono every once in awhile. But they even pulled a bullet or two to check the weight... then they'd fire 3 more for velocity.

I knew my W231 powder would run slow when it was cold so I was loaded up one day and still barely made minor with my 125 @ 1000 fps.

To me it was funny when the 38 Super guys got bumped down to minor, especially when they were running race guns. All that money and flash, just to shoot minor.

The really BIG difference was when we'd shoot a concealed carry match and the guys that always ran the race guns were stuck with stock pistols like the rest of us po' boys. The switch in rankings for the matches was interesting, to say the least.

I ran 9mm major for awhile, but went back to shooting my CCW so I was practiced with my main SD weapon.

fredj338
09-12-2011, 21:51
I think Fred is talking IDPA Steve, I realized you were talking USPSA.

I personally don't know of many guys that would even think of cheating via skimming the PF floor intentionally. I think with most that I wasz trying to explain before they just got started reloading and don't have the resources to chrono and truly develop their loads correctly. Thanking all things in to consideration... velocity, accuracy, reliability and just finding a load that the guns runs good.

I was & yes you do get DQ from a match shooting below PF in IDPA, regardless of div. While some reloaders just do not know their PF, others are shooting 13-14# srpings in their Glocks to push those bunnyfarts out of the bbl, yes they are knowingly cheating. They know they have to make PF in a major match & reload accordingly, but for monthly bragging rights they fudge? I can't explain it, but see it every week.:upeyes: BTW, you get to shoot, you get the DQ after the match. Yes it is certainly fair if the other shooters are shooting using the same rules. Cheating is cheating Steve. If the recoil doesn't matter, then load the gun with real ammo instead of running the ragged edge of the PF. Pretty simple, even w/o a chronograph. GOing 50fps over PF, evem using book data, is going to be fine in most situations. They do give the benefit of the doubt & will test in the longest bbl available, so if you are shooting a G19 & it doesn't make it, they'll test it in a G17 or G34 if they have one.

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 22:04
I was & yes you do get DQ from a match shooting below PF in IDPA, regardless of div. While some reloaders just do not know their PF, others are shooting 13-14# srpings in their Glocks to push those bunnyfarts out of the bbl, yes they are knowingly cheating. They know they have to make PF in a major match & reload accordingly, but for monthly bragging rights they fudge? I can't explain it, but see it every week.:upeyes: BTW, you get to shoot, you get the DQ after the match. Yes it is certainly fair if the other shooters are shooting using the same rules. Cheating is cheating Steve. If the recoil doesn't matter, then load the gun with real ammo instead of running the ragged edge of the PF. Pretty simple, even w/o a chronograph. GOing 50fps over PF, evem using book data, is going to be fine in most situations. They do give the benefit of the doubt & will test in the longest bbl available, so if you are shooting a G19 & it doesn't make it, they'll test it in a G17 or G34 if they have one.

Actually they changed the rule last year if you ammo fails to meet PF in your gun such as a G19, you must supply the longer barrel to retest in. Hopefully someone will do as I did last year and bring their G34 to the match to have on stand-by for one buddy that was on the ragged edge with his G19.

cysoto
09-12-2011, 22:11
Actually they changed the rule last year if you ammo fails to meet PF in your gun such as a G19, you must supply the longer barrel to retest in. Hopefully someone will do as I did last year and bring their G34 to the match to have on stand-by for one buddy that was on the ragged edge with his G19.

I haven't shot IDPA is a few years and I was not aware of this ruling. Is this done only if the person is shooting factory ammunition or is this done with reloads too?

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 22:52
I haven't shot IDPA is a few years and I was not aware of this ruling. Is this done only if the person is shooting factory ammunition or is this done with reloads too?

Any competitor, that doesn't make PF with his shorter barrel gun using either reloads or factory. You can supply a longer barrel one to retest it in, once again though the competitor must supply the longer barreled gun.

cysoto
09-12-2011, 23:00
Any competitor, that doesn't make PF with his shorter barrel gun using either reloads or factory. You can supply a longer barrel one to retest it in, once again though the competitor must supply the longer barreled gun.

Does it need to be a longer version of the same pistol (G34 for a G19; Gvrmt sized 1911 for a Commander sized 1911; etc)?

Boxerglocker
09-12-2011, 23:46
Does it need to be a longer version of the same pistol (G34 for a G19; Gvrmt sized 1911 for a Commander sized 1911; etc)?

NO, but if your short velocity in a G19 and want to get enough to make PF the second time around.... it would be best to go longer :whistling:

cysoto
09-12-2011, 23:50
NO, but if your short velocity in a G19 and want to get enough to make PF the second time around.... it would be best to go longer :whistling:
Cool!! Thanks for the info!!

WiskyT
09-13-2011, 05:00
A 9mm with a 124 @1100fp EASILY makes minor. We are talking WinUSA or Blazer territory here. So why are all these black pajama ninja's having such a hard time? Why do any of you guys even need to chrono your rounds before a match when starting loads in the manuals easily exceed PF? Because you are ALL gaming it, that's why. Even my plinkers loaded with Bullseye and range scrap break minor and the brass lands on my forearm.

Colorado4Wheel
09-13-2011, 06:48
I was & yes you do get DQ from a match shooting below PF in IDPA, regardless of div. While some reloaders just do not know their PF, others are shooting 13-14# srpings in their Glocks to push those bunnyfarts out of the bbl, yes they are knowingly cheating. They know they have to make PF in a major match & reload accordingly, but for monthly bragging rights they fudge? I can't explain it, but see it every week.:upeyes: BTW, you get to shoot, you get the DQ after the match. Yes it is certainly fair if the other shooters are shooting using the same rules. Cheating is cheating Steve. If the recoil doesn't matter, then load the gun with real ammo instead of running the ragged edge of the PF. Pretty simple, even w/o a chronograph. GOing 50fps over PF, evem using book data, is going to be fine in most situations. They do give the benefit of the doubt & will test in the longest bbl available, so if you are shooting a G19 & it doesn't make it, they'll test it in a G17 or G34 if they have one.

Why you quoting me about cheating is cheating. Of course it is. It's just USPSA has two scoring methods and IDPA doesn't. I do think it's a little different shooting a 125gr bullet at 999fps then "Breaking the 180". But rules are rules. USPSA has a place for someone to go if they don't make major. It's called minor. It's in the rulebook.

Only one person declaring minor failed to make minor.

Wash-ar15
09-13-2011, 09:00
I would think this to be the same in a number of clubs. However in mine, I realize that once we get into a couple months just prior to State quite a few get nervous and start asking for those who have a chrono to borrow or get into a chrono session prior to the matches to confirm their loads.
I like the idea of a mid year chrono match and am going to suggest it to our match director and his committee.
Steve what intrigues me the most are those 158s loads of your at 129 PF. What powder are you using and how is the accuracy at 25 yards?

BG, with the amount of people shooting these days, I don't think that its going to happen. No way to chrono everyone and get out in a timely manner.

Now a random pick might work. Say there are 15 shooter in squad. Pick 3 out of them and chrono them. this would keep everyone on their toes.

cysoto
09-13-2011, 09:33
Now a random pick might work. Say there are 15 shooter in squad. Pick 3 out of them and chrono them. this would keep everyone on their toes.

Rule 5.6.1 specifies that if you have a chronograph available, every competitor's ammo must be subject to it. Picking folks at random is not allowed.

Rule 5.6.1
One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination of the power factor of every competitorís ammunition. In the absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged.

Zombie Steve
09-13-2011, 10:14
When I was shooting IPSC, they'd show up with the chrono every once in awhile. But they even pulled a bullet or two to check the weight... then they'd fire 3 more for velocity.

I knew my W231 powder would run slow when it was cold so I was loaded up one day and still barely made minor with my 125 @ 1000 fps.

To me it was funny when the 38 Super guys got bumped down to minor, especially when they were running race guns. All that money and flash, just to shoot minor.

The really BIG difference was when we'd shoot a concealed carry match and the guys that always ran the race guns were stuck with stock pistols like the rest of us po' boys. The switch in rankings for the matches was interesting, to say the least.

I ran 9mm major for awhile, but went back to shooting my CCW so I was practiced with my main SD weapon.

I'm glad Stevie doesn't post any video of me pulling mags out of my pockets. :supergrin:

Boxerglocker
09-13-2011, 13:45
BG, with the amount of people shooting these days, I don't think that its going to happen. No way to chrono everyone and get out in a timely manner.

Now a random pick might work. Say there are 15 shooter in squad. Pick 3 out of them and chrono them. this would keep everyone on their toes.

I agree with you especially at our club. We average 80-90 shooters a month these days. When I said suggest it, I didn't mean drop the bomb on the day. I think just having the opportunity another time other than State would be benificial for a large majority that didn't have access to a chrono other than ourselves throughout the year. They announced at this years State we only had one out of 150 shooters that didn't make declared PF that was one CDP shooter.

Though against the rules, the random pick at a local level does sound like a good Idea to me too though. I however don't believe we have an issue with sandbagging at our club by means of underpoered reloads.

Wash-ar15
09-13-2011, 13:54
I agree with you especially at our club. We average 80-90 shooters a month these days. When I said suggest it, I didn't mean drop the bomb on the day. I think just having the opportunity another time other than State would be benificial for a large majority that didn't have access to a chrono other than ourselves throughout the year. They announced at this years State we only had one out of 150 shooters that didn't make declared PF that was one CDP shooter.

Though against the rules, the random pick at a local level does sound like a good Idea to me too though. I however don't believe we have an issue with sandbagging at our club by means of underpoered reloads.

I say drop the bomb on them that day. No pre notice. that will keep folks honest.

fredj338
09-13-2011, 14:48
Why you quoting me about cheating is cheating. Of course it is. It's just USPSA has two scoring methods and IDPA doesn't. I do think it's a little different shooting a 125gr bullet at 999fps then "Breaking the 180". But rules are rules. USPSA has a place for someone to go if they don't make major. It's called minor. It's in the rulebook.

Only one person declaring minor failed to make minor.
I thought you shot both Steve. I don;t shoot USPSA, but used to shoot IPSC. There just isn't a provision for those not making minor in IDPA, is there for USPSA or is there no minor?
I suspect that many of the gamers in IDPA are coming over from USPSA, that is my exp anyway. They like to win & push every advantage, like not shooting from cover when called. I get them all the time on that one. You get one cover call, then a procedural.:crying:

Colorado4Wheel
09-13-2011, 16:20
I used to shoot IDPA. Hozer used to run our local club but it closed. It's been about 4 years. I don't remember the rules for IDPA at all. They are confusing to me. Things like shooting on the move is ok with out cover. So why do you even need cover? I don't know it's been a while.

Colorado4Wheel
09-13-2011, 16:23
I say drop the bomb on them that day. No pre notice. that will keep folks honest.

That is what we did. Only three people shooting knew. We chrono regularly so it's not like it's a surprise that we passed.

fredj338
09-13-2011, 17:02
I used to shoot IDPA. Hozer used to run our local club but it closed. It's been about 4 years. I don't remember the rules for IDPA at all. They are confusing to me. Things like shooting on the move is ok with out cover. So why do you even need cover? I don't know it's been a while.

Shouldn't be confusing at all. Like a real gunfight, you use cover when ever possible, shoot on the move w/o cover when you have to. Like shooting strong or weak hand, I prefer strong hand, but if I need to shoot weak hand, I will. It is why I prefer IDPA for practice as it is closer to a real life encounter than USPSA; practical scenarios & round counts, using a concealement garment & shooting from cover & supposedly real, std power ammo. The only thing that would be better is force on force training.:supergrin:

davesretired1
09-13-2011, 17:41
Back in the 90's, my club on Long Island hosted the USPSA 3-Gun Nationals. I ran the chrono stage. The excuses I heard were truly novel, ranging from high humidity, to low altitude. Always amazed me that people would spend a ton of money to travel to matches, and then try to just barely squeek over the minimum PF's. When I shot the Limited Nationals in Virginia, my .45 loads ran an average power factor of 204. Actually got a handshake from the official! Granted, I could have loaded them a little bit milder, but I still had a blast. By the way, I was an A class shooter with those loads.

Boxerglocker
09-13-2011, 17:47
Shouldn't be confusing at all. Like a real gunfight, you use cover when ever possible, shoot on the move w/o cover when you have to. Like shooting strong or weak hand, I prefer strong hand, but if I need to shoot weak hand, I will. It is why I prefer IDPA for practice as it is closer to a real life encounter than USPSA; practical scenarios & round counts, using a concealement garment & shooting from cover & supposedly real, std power ammo. The only thing that would be better is force on force training.:supergrin:

I started practical shooting with IDPA after taking several tactical firearms classes found it was the best avenue to practice. These days I shoot whatever my schedule is open for that particular weekend. I like both games and take them for what they are worth. I'm having alot of fun playing USPSA single stack minor this year.

WiskyT
09-13-2011, 19:22
Rule 5.6.1 specifies that if you have a chronograph available, every competitor's ammo must be subject to it. Picking folks at random is not allowed.

Rule 5.6.1
One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination of the power factor of every competitorís ammunition. In the absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged.

It looks like they want people to shoot foo-foo loads. It sounds as serious as MLB steroid testing in the 90's.

Colorado4Wheel
09-13-2011, 19:36
That rule is fair. It prevents a person from singling out a group/person they don't like for special treatment. Personally I think more groups should incorporate a chrono into their match.

justinsaneok
09-13-2011, 20:47
I shoot local IDPA and it for me is just practice. I want to shoot practical pistol matches in the future so I have my gun and gear geared more towards that. I will not be using a ccw holster anymore and load my ammo so it shoots strait. I start at the bottom and work my way up till it starts shooting bad. I feel I shoot against my self and no one else. I let the match director know what I'm shooting and everyone else. I'm at 158 PF and when I load hotter with W231 with these 165 rainiers they get crazy and the group gets big. I did however classify with 206 PF ammo and I was above the middle of the pack with that ammo. I didn't enjoy shooting that classifier when it was 112 degrees and it felt like I was shooting a 10mm or something and my little boy hands couldn't hang on. I will get heavier bullets next time. I think if you tell everyone what your doing there it's not a problem to be under power factor. That said people deceiving other competitors and themselves and loading light to win should get the DQ. Everyone I shoot with knows my game is with myself and thats the only one I'm trying to beat.

WiskyT
09-14-2011, 14:26
That rule is fair. It prevents a person from singling out a group/person they don't like for special treatment. Personally I think more groups should incorporate a chrono into their match.

How would randomly selecting every third competitor be unfair? They could be picked blindly from the entries. The high likelyhood of being picked would discourage cheating, and by only checking 1/3 of the competitors, it would require only 1/3 of the time to check everyone's ammo. No one who had ammo that made PF would be worried about being singled out.

justinsaneok
09-14-2011, 15:33
If they check one they should check all. Otherwise some might not get tested and get through with under powered ammo when some one else gets stopped from competing. If they make random matches chronograph check matches it would be the fairest way to do it.

fredj338
09-14-2011, 16:55
If they check one they should check all. Otherwise some might not get tested and get through with under powered ammo when some one else gets stopped from competing. If they make random matches chronograph check matches it would be the fairest way to do it.

I am going to my first sanctioned major match next month, GA State IDPA. My understanding, 3-5rds will be taken from you @ some time during the match. Not everyone's ammo will be tested, but winners certainly will & you will get a DQ if your ammo fails. So you get to shoot, it just may not count.:dunno:

Boxerglocker
09-14-2011, 17:27
I am going to my first sanctioned major match next month, GA State IDPA. My understanding, 3-5rds will be taken from you @ some time during the match. Not everyone's ammo will be tested, but winners certainly will & you will get a DQ if your ammo fails. So you get to shoot, it just may not count.:dunno:

If it is a official State match ALL competitors ammo will be tested. There is a specific procedure outlined in the IDPA rulebook. Normally you'll submit 7 random rounds from your mags on your belt at a stage just prior to the chrono table, 3 will be shot for testing.

Any competitor whose ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF (Did Not Finish) score.

justinsaneok
09-14-2011, 17:59
I am going to my first sanctioned major match next month, GA State IDPA. My understanding, 3-5rds will be taken from you @ some time during the match. Not everyone's ammo will be tested, but winners certainly will & you will get a DQ if your ammo fails. So you get to shoot, it just may not count.:dunno:

Thats all fine and good. Because you still get to shoot. I will be trying more powders with these rainier 165gr .40 s. I will be shooting a sanctioned match soon and needs to find something that shoots as good but pushes these strait and a little faster. It would really suck if you drove to a match somewhere far away to find ammo that made the cut at home fell short at the match chrono. It seems like everyone should be checked at that match. To only check a few peoples ammo to save time makes no sense to me saving time or not. I will be shooting minor in USPCA with a 158 PF so shows how much I care about power factor against accuracy.

PCJim
09-15-2011, 14:10
I am going to my first sanctioned major match next month, GA State IDPA. My understanding, 3-5rds will be taken from you @ some time during the match. Not everyone's ammo will be tested, but winners certainly will & you will get a DQ if your ammo fails. So you get to shoot, it just may not count.:dunno:

Traveling cross country to attend a major match! I haven't traveled cross state yet. If you decide to detour south after the match, let me know. Regardless, have a great time there.

fredj338
09-15-2011, 16:18
Traveling cross country to attend a major match! I haven't traveled cross state yet. If you decide to detour south after the match, let me know. Regardless, have a great time there.
I have a friend in GA to stay with, so it's just airfare. I have spent more than that on hotels & gas going to a two day training class. Check out GAIDPA site for the match last year, looks pretty cool, 13 stages, lots of reactive targets. All the majors around here were shot in April & May, I didn't start IDPA until May. So why not, gotta have some time out of Kommifornia?
I won't make it to FL this trip, but might be in BocaRaton for business in Nov.:dunno: