L.A.P.D. Changing pistols? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Trigger Finger
09-12-2011, 16:02
I heard a couple of days ago that the LAPD is going to begin issuing recruits the Glock 17 instead of the 4th Generation Glock 22!! They might have already began doing this.

I heard the Glock 22 had problems with the practice ammo and 9MM ammo would be cheaper. LAPD has budget problems and are trying to avoid layoffs.

I also heard that as soon as the Glock contract is up the LAPD may be going the the S&W M&P.

I have to admit that I never thought that a large department would go BACK to 9MM after transitioning to 40 cal but I have heard that recruits find it more difficult to shoot the 40 accurately!!

Perhaps SAR can shed some more light on this!!

seang
09-12-2011, 16:22
Doesn't surprise me at all. Saint Paul PD just did this, switching from Glock 22's to allowing officer choice of Gen4 Glock 17 or M&P 9mm. Wichita, KS is going to be allowing the same choices of G17 or M&P 9 after having carried G22's. I wish I could carry a 9mm, but were limited to .40 or .45. At least I get a choice.

Landric
09-12-2011, 17:07
I tried to persuade our chief to switch back to the 9mm when we got new Glocks last year. Couldn't get him to. The kicker is that he wanted to, but he didn't think he could sell it to the non-gun troops who would see going "down" to the 9mm as a step backward.

MNOD Glocker
09-12-2011, 17:21
Doesn't surprise me at all. Saint Paul PD just did this, switching from Glock 22's to allowing officer choice of Gen4 Glock 17 or M&P 9mm. Wichita, KS is going to be allowing the same choices of G17 or M&P 9 after having carried G22's. I wish I could carry a 9mm, but were limited to .40 or .45. At least I get a choice.


My department (just north of the Metro area), just switched from Glock 22's and 23's to Glock 17's and 19's. I was told the change was due to malfunctions even without the dedicated lights. I found when I used newer magazines my 22 functioned fine with a light attached. I do have to say though, our last training day when we shot, with our new handguns which are all third generations by the way, our hit percenteges department wide increased drastically. Perhaps that is why LAPD may be switching back to 9mm's? I will say even for myself, I am more accurate with my 17 and I have much faster follow up shots.

CanIhaveGasCash
09-12-2011, 18:08
A nearby department is transitioning from the 22 to the 19. I can definitely see the benefit to it. The biggest of which is improved shooting by the general populous. Most cops aren't gun nuts, so if you can give them a gun that they can shoot better with, why not?

With large departments saving roughly 8 cents a round could make a big difference in the budget. We usually burn through 250 rounds or more during quarterly range training. So with my small department, switching to 9mm would save about $1600 a year. If the department has 200 officers that savings would jump to $16,000. Which in the long run isn't a ton of cash but it's something.

TLHelmer
09-12-2011, 19:19
I heard a couple of days ago that the LAPD is going to begin issuing recruits the Glock 17 instead of the 4th Generation Glock 22!! They might have already began doing this.

I heard the Glock 22 had problems with the practice ammo and 9MM ammo would be cheaper. LAPD has budget problems and are trying to avoid layoffs.

I also heard that as soon as the Glock contract is up the LAPD may be going the the S&W M&P.

I have to admit that I never thought that a large department would go BACK to 9MM after transitioning to 40 cal but I have heard that recruits find it more difficult to shoot the 40 accurately!!

Perhaps SAR can shed some more light on this!!

We, the Indiana State Police went from the Glock 22 to the Glock 17 when the new Glock 22's we were issued had FTF problems during the transition training. They took the path of least resistance.

G22Dude
09-12-2011, 19:52
Wow, I didn't realize so many people were having issues with the G22. My agency has issued them for 10 years now and we don't have that many issues

Milltown
09-12-2011, 20:21
What kind of agencies issue anything but a .45? :whistling:

Glock 21 all the way baby!! :cool:

DaBigBR
09-12-2011, 21:10
We, the Indiana State Police went from the Glock 22 to the Glock 17 when the new Glock 22's we were issued had FTF problems during the transition training. They took the path of least resistance.

Helmer! Where you been, dude?!?

Cochese
09-12-2011, 21:30
Too many ****** bags at my department that would pewp their pants "downgrading" to 9mm.

:upeyes:

CW Mock
09-12-2011, 21:50
Too many ****** bags at my department that would pewp their pants "downgrading" to 9mm.

:upeyes:

Yeah, I think it's pretty much the same here. Won't go up to a .45 because of cost, and won't go to 9 ... for who knows why. :dunno:

Trigger Finger
09-12-2011, 23:27
Wow, I didn't realize so many people were having issues with the G22. My agency has issued them for 10 years now and we don't have that many issues

The way I understand it, at least with LAPD, is there were no issues with the 3rd generation Glock 22's. Only with the 4th generation!!!
Something to do with the ammunition used in training, not the duty ammo. I heard that Glock changed all of the firing pins for the department. This was not a problem with the 3rd generation, and left a bad taste with the LAPD.

This came as a surprise to me. I thought the 4th generation was supposed to be an improvement!! Guess I am lucky to have a 2nd gen G22 and 3rd generation G27 and 21sf.

SAR
09-13-2011, 00:36
I will have to check. I do know that they were having problems with the Glock 22s and rail mounted lights. Curiously, they were not having the same issues with the other Glock calibers. In any event, I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea. For the most part, the recruits will shoot better with the Glock 17 anyways, and when they graduate, they are free to go to the Glock 22 or Glock 21 or even a 1911 for that matter (as long as they transition). Many recruits are not especially gun people, so perhaps a Glock 17 is where they should stay.

I have also heard that they are looking at the M&Ps. I personally will not ne switching to an M&P if and when that happens. I have no problems with my Glock 21, and I am also waiting to go to 1911 school.

ArmaGlock
09-13-2011, 03:06
Damn, I wish we had that many options. We can only carry a Glock 22 as our primary. I haven't had any issues with mine though, even with a light.

And Glock has disappointed me with the release of the gen 4s. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

DaBigBR
09-13-2011, 09:20
I do know that they were having problems with the Glock 22s and rail mounted lights. Curiously, they were not having the same issues with the other Glock calibers.

That's actually not surprising. The issues with the WMLs are almost exclusively limited to the .40 caliber guns and have been well documented.

Snowman92D
09-13-2011, 10:04
Sometimes I think the Glock is at its best in its original 9mm version.

Detectorist
09-13-2011, 10:49
The largest city Police Department, NYPD uses the Glock 19 and they seem to be happy with it.

Patchman
09-13-2011, 13:29
I like LAPD's concept to have recruits start out with the easiest to use caliber (9mm) and after demonstrating basic competency, be allowed to upgrade to another caliber/gun. Those motivated enough will do so, and the rest are still well served with a 9mm.

And I do wonder why Glock decided to fix their 9mm platforms when they weren't broken!

Ajon412
09-13-2011, 13:50
I like LAPD's concept to have recruits start out with the easiest to use caliber (9mm) and after demonstrating basic competency, be allowed to upgrade to another caliber/gun. Those motivated enough will do so, and the rest are still well served with a 9mm.

I agree 100%. I can see a problem with larger agencies not wanting to stock hundreds of thousands of rounds of multiple handgun calibers....:whistling:

And I do wonder why Glock decided to fix their 9mm platforms when they weren't broken!

This is why I just love Gen 2 Glock 22's and 23's specifically.....:supergrin:

Patchman
09-13-2011, 15:11
I can see a problem with larger agencies not wanting to stock hundreds of thousands of rounds of multiple handgun calibers....:whistling:


Oh yeah, inventory control... I forgot. :embarassed:

pgg00
09-13-2011, 15:57
My agency currently only allows .40. I carry the 35 and haven't had any problems with it with a light. Word came down from on high that the 9mm and .45 are being approved. Already submitted the request to go back to my 21. We shall see what they say.

rookie1
09-13-2011, 16:22
I carried a 3rd gen 17 for a little while. I liked that gun and could shoot it with more confidence than the 22 I have now. I would rather have a gun I can shoot accurately than just having a bigger projectile.

9mmParabellum
09-13-2011, 16:23
I am not wanting a fight here however, take a look at my signature. I taught a large metro PD here where I live and at the time only 3 counties carried 9mm. You all have heard that shot placement thing its true but you have to know how to drill people to accomplish this.

13 shooting 12 killing later this dept was under the scope and they did it with a 9mm, round was 115gr +P+ 9BPLE Federal. After all the crap they went to a Winchestar bonded 124gr +p.

When the chief got fired they went to the .40cal I called and asked why the reply was we want to be like everyone else.

Union City and Gwinnet Co PD stlll shoot 9mm

SAR
09-13-2011, 17:50
I am not wanting a fight here however, take a look at my signature. I taught a large metro PD here where I live and at the time only 3 counties carried 9mm. You all have heard that shot placement thing its true but you have to know how to drill people to accomplish this.

13 shooting 12 killing later this dept was under the scope and they did it with a 9mm, round was 115gr +P+ 9BPLE Federal. After all the crap they went to a Winchestar bonded 124gr +p.

When the chief got fired they went to the .40cal I called and asked why the reply was we want to be like everyone else.

Union City and Gwinnet Co PD stlll shoot 9mm

No offense taken, and not wishing to fight, but I have been in an OIS with a 9mm, and I will take my chances with a .40 or preferably a .45. Shot placement is not a God given right. If it were guaranteed, there would be no such thing as a miss, ever. With all the adrenaline, excitement, and ducking and weaving, I know that there is a good chance I may not get an exact 10 ring hit like I do at the range. That being the case, I want to hit them with a big bullet... But that's just me...

beatcop
09-13-2011, 18:00
I carried a G-19 on duty for a while. I didn't feel under-gunned with it and would probably ditch my current .40 cal steel frame( no rail) for a G-19. I know that sounds crazy, but I like my tac light and holster better.

DaBigBR
09-13-2011, 18:06
There is much more to the equation than caliber or shot placement. Realistically, we should be substituting load for caliber, as each caliber has loads that can and will perform better than others. I dare say (:upeyes:) that a good 9mm SD round will substantially outperform a .40 ball load.

fastbolt
09-13-2011, 18:14
Sometimes I think the Glock is at its best in its original 9mm version.

Just sometimes? ;)

:wavey:

As far as the rest of the thread ...

I'd have been perfectly content to have finished my career continuing to carry an issued 9mm, but I eventually had to choose between .40 & .45 for a new weapon. I carried weapons chambered in both calibers at one time or another until my retirement, without particular concern over whichever one I was using at any time. As an instructor I was still doing a lot of shooting with all 3 calibers, anyway, so caliber difference mattered less to me (as an individual user) than it might have mattered to others.

Yes, most of the folks had to really work on their skills when it came to shooting the .40's & .45's, having been able to shoot the lighter recoiling 9's they'd used previously more easily. Many who opted for the .45's did so because of the "mystique" of the caliber (I asked many of them).

Yes, I knew guys at a medium-sized agency who were still trying to resolve feeding issues when they attached lights to their G22's (only about 4-5 years old) at the time of my retirement.

Patchman
09-13-2011, 18:21
There is much more to the equation than caliber or shot placement. Realistically, we should be substituting load for caliber, as each caliber has loads that can and will perform better than others. I dare say (:upeyes:) that a good 9mm SD round will substantially outperform a .40 ball load.


Good point. When people debate calibers, I get the feeling one party is talking about the best design/load in one caliber (and they've all come a long way), and the other party is talking about ball ammo in that caliber.

4949shooter
09-13-2011, 18:39
We have been issued a 9mm since the early eighties, after Phil Lamonaco was killed.

I don't see us changing to another caliber anytime soon. Years ago I tried to get us to switch to the +P 124 grain Gold Dot as opposed to the standard pressure round. I was told the +P would beat up the guns too much.

Whatever.

Trigger Finger
09-13-2011, 18:43
No offense taken, and not wishing to fight, but I have been in an OIS with a 9mm, and I will take my chances with a .40 or preferably a .45. Shot placement is not a God given right. If it were guaranteed, there would be no such thing as a miss, ever. With all the adrenaline, excitement, and ducking and weaving, I know that there is a good chance I may not get an exact 10 ring hit like I do at the range. That being the case, I want to hit them with a big bullet... But that's just me...

Like you SAR, I have been in an OIS, two in fact. One with a 9MM during the riots and the second just before I retired using a 45ACP. Absolutely no comparison. Maybe the hits were better with the 45 but the suspect went down immediately and stayed down. Maybe that's why SWAT and SIS use the 45ACP exclusively as there pistol caliber.

But allot of this sounds like a training issue to me. Not the jams of course, but the ability to shoot better with one caliber over the other. I know that I shoot my G27 just as good as my Beretta 92!

SAR, have you been able to verify this? I heard it from a reliable source, an old partner, and think it's true but thats why I placed a question mark in the title. If it is true, I can see no major downside. The department already stocks plenty of 9MM training ammo for those that are still using the Beretta and there are several thousand of those!!

igor
09-13-2011, 20:16
as i have gotten older well i went back top the 9mm either my 19 or my 26 or both. i have carried the 9mm 40 cal and 45 cal off duty ive seen folks shot with all three and i am of the oponion that hits count with geed ammo.
the neuropathy i now have well i shoot the 9mm better longer

Trigger Finger
09-15-2011, 14:41
Personally I think it would be a step backward to go back to 9MM from 40 Cal. That's just my opinion!! It does make sense to begin recruits with the easiest caliber but I believe that to be more of a training issue!!

If anything change weapons from Glock to M&P or the XD, that have been tested, but keep the caliber. The current Chief is moving toward authorizing more weapons like changing policy to allow those trained in the Glock to transition to decocker weapons and the authorization of the .380 backup and the 1911 program for patrol officers.

My question is, I have heard that the Glock 22 4th Gen has problems with the current LAPD practice ammo, which is the Winchester Super Clean NT 40 Caliber. Has anyone experienced or heard of another agency having the same problems. It deals with FTF but I would be interested in any problem with this ammo?

SAR
09-16-2011, 00:35
Still no answer from training and really too busy to go up there and ask. But I did have dinner with the Chief tonight and he was carrying a 1911 in a swivel holster. Nice. Once you transition to a 1911 by the way, you must qualify every single month for as long as you carry a 1911. That works for me...

Morris
09-16-2011, 10:52
Once you transition to a 1911 by the way, you must qualify every single month for as long as you carry a 1911. That works for me...

Department pays for the ammo?

SAR
09-16-2011, 12:31
Department pays for the ammo?

Yes, Department supplies your qualification ammo.

msu_grad_121
09-16-2011, 13:22
Yes, Department supplies your qualification ammo.

Shooting monthly on the department dime? Aw shucks, I GUESS if you're gonna twist my arm about it... :supergrin:

SAR
09-16-2011, 14:05
Shooting monthly on the department dime? Aw shucks, I GUESS if you're gonna twist my arm about it... :supergrin:

It's so much harder than you think. You may roll your eyes, but Trigger Finger can attest to this. Los Angeles is an extremely fast paced city. Things happen at the drop of a hat-- everything from an unplanned demonstration, to an OIS, to a major HELP call. You plan every day to go qualify, only to find yourself at the end of the month and having to drive an hour and a half through traffic to get to the range, only to find 100 other last minute qualifiers, and have to wait through 5 or 10 qualification cycles to get your turn, and it really sucks for the poor shooters who fail and have to go back to the end of the line (not me, by the way), but you always know when someone fails. They quietly hand over the qual slip along with another box of ammo, and you're like, "Doh, sorry sucker!" What's really bad is when your partner fails and you always hear the, "I ain't waitin' four hours for your sorry *** to requal so come back another day.." They run qualifications every 20 minutes around the clock from 0600 hours to about 2100 hours, and Harbor Range is open on weekends... LOL... you have to be there to understand...

4949shooter
09-16-2011, 15:28
It's so much harder than you think. You may roll your eyes, but Trigger Finger can attest to this. Los Angeles is an extremely fast paced city. Things happen at the drop of a hat-- everything from an unplanned demonstration, to an OIS, to a major HELP call. You plan every day to go qualify, only to find yourself at the end of the month and having to drive an hour and a half through traffic to get to the range, only to find 100 other last minute qualifiers, and have to wait through 5 or 10 qualification cycles to get your turn, and it really sucks for the poor shooters who fail and have to go back to the end of the line (not me, by the way), but you always know when someone fails. They quietly hand over the qual slip along with another box of ammo, and you're like, "Doh, sorry sucker!" What's really bad is when your partner fails and you always hear the, "I ain't waitin' four hours for your sorry *** to requal so come back another day.." They run qualifications every 20 minutes around the clock from 0600 hours to about 2100 hours, and Harbor Range is open on weekends... LOL... you have to be there to understand...

And who has vacation planned for qualification time of the month.

Or someone calls out sick on the squad and the officer who was supposed to qualify has to work shift instead.

Or who has other training scheduled for the same day.

So and so is in school and can't attend.

Or we got a shooting or a fatal accident working, and we need someone to assist at the scene, or pick up a blood sample kit or a rape kit from the hospital...

We have AR 15 quals 4 times a year, and it is difficult enough getting everyone to those.

Trigger Finger
09-16-2011, 17:44
I remember waiting in line for an hour and my beeper goes off!
It was a multi two OIS with one officer down, he later died. I was part of the team called out to handle.

The team was working 14 to 16 hour days through the end of the month and I failed to qualify with my 4506. I received a failure to qualify notice in my package. When I protested and told them what I was working on, all they said was "Well, you should have qualified in the first week of the month. Not a valid excuse!"

I just had to qualify every month for the first year of transitioning to the 4506, I can imagine doing stuff like that the rest of my carrier!! I know in the last few years I was on the job I really didn't feel like qualifying. After 25 years you only have to qualify once every 6 months!

mrsurfboard
09-16-2011, 17:52
With today's 9mm ammo, I don't see this as an issue. Cheaper, easier to shoot, win win.

SAR
09-16-2011, 17:54
With today's 9mm ammo, I don't see this as an issue. Cheaper, easier to shoot, win win.

Another way to look at it.. with all the advances in 9mm... same goes for .40 and .45. 9mm is much better. .45 is mo' better too.. :rofl:

mrsurfboard
09-16-2011, 18:21
Another way to look at it.. with all the advances in 9mm... same goes for .40 and .45. 9mm is much better. .45 is mo' better too.. :rofl:

I thinking the cheaper, but still effective was what I was going for there.

nastytrigger
09-16-2011, 18:33
Knowing California, they'll probably ban LEO's from carrying guns.

Or let them only have 10rd mags...

mrsurfboard
09-16-2011, 18:52
Knowing California, they'll probably ban LEO's from carrying guns.

Or let them only have 10rd mags...

"Glow Rods, it's what we got"

jwhite75
09-16-2011, 19:39
9mm seems ot have served the LAPD well up until now. I see no reason for them to switch. I would have no reason to feel undergunned if I switched tomorrow to my P228.

BradleyS
09-16-2011, 21:17
Our Chief just permitted us to purchase our own duty weapon in lieu of the issued H&K USP. I'm going to a Glock 23 but would rather carry a G19, but .40 is the mandated caliber.

jnc36rcpd
09-16-2011, 22:27
jwhite, LAPD has been using a variety of calibres for the past several years. The Glock .40 became both authorized and issued after Bratton became chief. Before that, the S&W 45XX series and Beretta .45's were authorized after the North Hollywood bank incident. SWAT and SIS also carried .45 pistols.

My long-winded history lesson completed, I agree completely on the effectiveness of the 9mm. I also agree with your view of the 228. I've been packing a 229R as an off-duty weapon, but I'm really thinking about going back to the 228.

Be safe.

SAR
09-16-2011, 22:28
Our Chief just permitted us to purchase our own duty weapon in lieu of the issued H&K USP. I'm going to a Glock 23 but would rather carry a G19, but .40 is the mandated caliber.

Serious? Given the choice, I would carry an HK USP over any Glock.

walkin' trails
09-17-2011, 13:12
A department or two in my area were switching back to 9s from the Gen III Glock 22s. They were supposedly having problems with broken locking blocks and trigger pins. I've seen both on my agency's pistols, but they're not a wide spread problem. I know that my people generally shoot more in training that the officers of those departments. I suspect that real problems was that Glock had a bad run of parts in more recent years. The Gen 4s really haven't impressed me much.

In regard to 9mm, its a lot cheaper to by a 500 round case of 9 ball than a case of 40.
Ive seen 9 ball selling for almost $100 cheaper than 40 on occasion. In regard to improving handgun skills, some shooters are scared off by the loud bang, and thus, when allowing their skills to perish, will shoot lousy regardless of the caliber. On the ogther hand, shooter who practices regularly will find that they're going to be a little bit faster and possibly more accurate with a milder recoiling 9 than with a 40 or 45. There have been times in the last couple of years I've considered going back to a 9, but my agency's issue/authorized 9 duty load is not one of the best rounds out there.

Morris
09-17-2011, 13:24
If the 9mm round means more shooters are hitting the threat more effectively, then the 9mm is the more effective round . . .

SAR
09-17-2011, 13:37
If the 9mm round means more shooters are hitting the threat more effectively, then the 9mm is the more effective round . . .

I must be the odd duck. I am most accurate with my Glock 30 (.45), then my Glock 21 (.45), then my Glock 23 (.40), followed by my Glock 17 (9mm)-- in that order. Don't ask me why. I have to work really hard to be accurate with my Glock 17. This is not true of all my 9mms. My SIG P229 is good to go and so is my HK P2000 9mm, just my Glock 17.

mrsurfboard
09-17-2011, 18:12
Serious? Given the choice, I would carry an HK USP over any Glock.

Agreed!

msu_grad_121
09-17-2011, 18:37
Serious? Given the choice, I would carry an HK USP over any Glock.

Had both, HATED the USP. Its not H&K's fault, but still put me off the thing.

S. Kelly
09-17-2011, 22:27
I spoke with a guy the other night who runs his Dept's training, and he stated he'd go back to 9MM from 40 S&W in a heartbeat to get his officers up closer to 100%. He stated stopping power begins with rifle calibers.
I'd go back to 9MM or up to .45ACP, no problem, but I'm a gun guy. Most people are not, at all. Of course, I have gone up to 3 years without being sent for quals and I've seen people go longer. My Dept would get rid of guns if we let them. Sad state of affairs.

Trigger Finger
09-17-2011, 23:58
I spoke with a guy the other night who runs his Dept's training, and he stated he'd go back to 9MM from 40 S&W in a heartbeat to get his officers up closer to 100%. He stated stopping power begins with rifle calibers.
I'd go back to 9MM or up to .45ACP, no problem, but I'm a gun guy. Most people are not, at all. Of course, I have gone up to 3 years without being sent for quals and I've seen people go longer. My Dept would get rid of guns if we let them. Sad state of affairs.

3 years without being sent for quals?

I don't understand, with my ex department as with most departments I am familiar with there is a set period where you have to qualify. It might be every month, every two months or every six months or perhaps once a year at most. But going three years without qualifying seems to me like your shooting skills would perish!

S. Kelly
09-18-2011, 00:08
We were the first academy class to receive Glock 19s (prior standard issue was Ruger Speed Sixes in 4 inch .38 Spl and S&W Model 64s/60/649/36/37) and the new standard was qualification 4 times/year. That fell by the wayside for a while (cost too much OT), and finally it's 2 times/year. The years in between were lean, with quals falling by the wayside-typical for my dept.

NMPOPS
09-18-2011, 01:47
My old dept. issues the Glock 22 bu officers are free to carry just about any 9 or 45 they want. About 15-20% carry a 9 and more would but they don't consider downgrading to a 9 "macho" so they stick with a gun they can't shoot as well. I carried a 19 & a 26 because I could shoot the faster and just as accurately as the 40 and now that I'm retired its also cheaper.

Sent from my Ally

ULVER
09-18-2011, 04:59
I am not wanting a fight here however, take a look at my signature. I taught a large metro PD here where I live and at the time only 3 counties carried 9mm. You all have heard that shot placement thing its true but you have to know how to drill people to accomplish this.

13 shooting 12 killing later this dept was under the scope and they did it with a 9mm, round was 115gr +P+ 9BPLE Federal. After all the crap they went to a Winchestar bonded 124gr +p.

When the chief got fired they went to the .40cal I called and asked why the reply was we want to be like everyone else.

Union City and Gwinnet Co PD stlll shoot 9mm

Dekalb sure had a load of luck with that Federal round. As the dept., became "diverse" :upeyes:, there was a call for ".40's." Actual street results be damned, they wanted ".40's"

I still think a Glock 17 (the first remains the best) & +P 124gr. Gold Dots remains the best platform for duty. It's all about PRACTICE & TACTICS!

A6Gator
09-19-2011, 07:40
If the 9mm round means more shooters are hitting the threat more effectively, then the 9mm is the more effective round . . .

Having a more user-friendly gun and getting decent hits in training (and not developing a flinch), especially for non-gun guys, is a confidence builder. Hopefully, having confidence in their weapon could take one of the variables of hesitation out of FNGs when the SHTF. If LAPD continues letting gun guys carry large bore Glocks or 1911s, sounds like a win-win. The supply dweebs will just have to figure out the logistic side.

usafric
09-19-2011, 08:39
I too agree with most on here. I just started with my agency and they issue G-22. Mine is an older gen 3, but some have the newer gen 4. I have a g-19, and will go to that when my probation is up. I am a lot more accurate with the 19, than any 40 I have ever shot.
Years ago I had the SW Sigma 40, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with that.

CAcop
09-19-2011, 08:40
I spoke with a guy the other night who runs his Dept's training, and he stated he'd go back to 9MM from 40 S&W in a heartbeat to get his officers up closer to 100%. He stated stopping power begins with rifle calibers. I'd go back to 9MM or up to .45ACP, no problem, but I'm a gun guy. Most people are not, at all. Of course, I have gone up to 3 years without being sent for quals and I've seen people go longer. My Dept would get rid of guns if we let them. Sad state of affairs.

If you look at Doc Robert's work he has pointed out most pistol calibers are more similar than they are different these days. The only pistol calibers that stand out are those that approach rifle levels of power.

GunFighter45ACP
09-19-2011, 12:16
Being a Southpaw, having access to the Gen 4s, or HKs, & Sigs w/LEM or DAK, especially in an Academy setting would be nice to have, but once you hit the streets, it should be up to the individual officer to decide what will work best for him/her.

Hollywood D
09-21-2011, 21:02
There were a lot of issues with G22s and tac lights causing failure to feed malfunctions. I don't know about the 4th gen ones, but the older model had the failures. I used to carry a 22 but it got unreliable on me and I switched to a 17. I like the 17 more. I fell more confident with it and my follow up shots are better. I always qualified well with my 22 tho.

I also looked at the ballistics for the ammunition we carry. There's not that much difference between the 9mm 40s and 45s. They were pretty much identical as far as penetration and the amount the bullet mushrooms.

nastytrigger
09-21-2011, 21:22
Of the LEO Gen3 G22's that had problems, was there any fix? Did it run fine without a light or was there more to it?

SAR
09-22-2011, 12:14
I confirmed today that the LAPD is issuing new recruits 9mm Glock 17s. They have gone back and forth a couple of times this year between the Glock 22 and Glock 17. The good thing about Glocks is that the training and manual of arms is identical across calibers. The reason I got was that many recruits were having problems with the Glock 22 recoil and were switching to Glock 17s after gradutaion. On LAPD, any officer trained on Glocks can change at will between the 9mm, .40 and .45 calibers. So really it's not a big issue. Following graduation, a new officer is free to switch over to a Glock .40 or Glock .45 if he so chooses. Or he can even go to decocker school and carry a weapon with a decocker such as a Beretta 92 or Smith and Wesson 4506. Or he can go to 1911 school and carry a 1911. As far as big Departments go, LAPD offers a lot of flexibility on weapons choices. I am not opposed to issuing Glock 17s to new recruits. Less recoil, cheaper ammo.

Agent6-3/8
09-22-2011, 12:40
I confirmed today that the LAPD is issuing new recruits 9mm Glock 17s. They have gone back and forth a couple of times this year between the Glock 22 and Glock 17. The good thing about Glocks is that the training and manual of arms is identical across calibers. The reason I got was that many recruits were having problems with the Glock 22 recoil and were switching to Glock 17s after gradutaion. On LAPD, any officer trained on Glocks can change at will between the 9mm, .40 and .45 calibers. So really it's not a big issue. Following graduation, a new officer is free to switch over to a Glock .40 or Glock .45 if he so chooses. Or he can even go to decocker school and carry a weapon with a decocker such as a Beretta 92 or Smith and Wesson 4506. Or he can go to 1911 school and carry a 1911. As far as big Departments go, LAPD offers a lot of flexibility on weapons choices. I am not opposed to issuing Glock 17s to new recruits. Less recoil, cheaper ammo.

Good stuff SAR! IMO, LAPD really has it figured out when it comes to their sidearms.

Trigger Finger
09-22-2011, 14:20
I was correct. I'm glad all of my old sources have not dried up yet. :cool:

Thanks SAR.

luv2brode
09-22-2011, 15:41
we get to choose from 9,40,45 i used to carry 40 but made the switch to 9

Patchman
09-22-2011, 17:04
I confirmed today that the LAPD is issuing new recruits 9mm Glock 17s. The good thing about Glocks is that the training and manual of arms is identical across calibers. The reason I got was that many recruits were having problems with the Glock 22 recoil and were switching to Glock 17s after gradutaion. On LAPD, any officer trained on Glocks can change at will between the 9mm, .40 and .45 calibers. So really it's not a big issue.

Following graduation, a new officer is free to switch over to a Glock .40 or Glock .45 if he so chooses. Or he can even go to decocker school and carry a weapon with a decocker such as a Beretta 92 or Smith and Wesson 4506. Or he can go to 1911 school and carry a 1911. As far as big Departments go, LAPD offers a lot of flexibility on weapons choices.

A very progressive policy.

What's the LAPD policy on broken duty and off-duty guns? LAPD gunsmiths will repair everything?

I know that when I'm very close to retiring I will go to our gunsmith and have my guns checked out. Replace all the springs, etc... and have the old nightsight swapped out for a new set.

SAR
09-22-2011, 17:09
A very progressive policy.

What's the LAPD policy on broken duty and off-duty guns? LAPD gunsmiths will repair everything?

I know that when I'm very close to retiring I will go to our gunsmith and have my guns checked out. Replace all the springs, etc... and have the old nightsight swapped out for a new set.

Any work to be done on a weapon you will be carrying on or off duty as part of official police duties must be done by a Department armorer. They supply all parts. They won't work on my deer rifle, but they will work on any weapon that is on the Department approved list for carry whether it is Department issued or personally owned.

Patchman
09-22-2011, 17:17
Same here.

Hollywood D
09-22-2011, 21:00
Of the LEO Gen3 G22's that had problems, was there any fix? Did it run fine without a light or was there more to it?

Mine work fine without the light. I don't think the tac light issue was ever fixed, it got denied for a while then swept under the rug.

CW Mock
09-23-2011, 09:18
Anymore, I think the biggest upside to a 9mm for me is ...

I can afford to train with it more. I love my .45s, but holy crap ... ammo the other day was almost as much as the dang guns were for a few magazines worth! .40 is almost as bad it seems.

That's cool that some agencies are so "open minded" about firearms. I wish mine was.

mikegun
09-25-2011, 16:13
OAKLAND PD had to recall their gen 4 22s the second day of issue, anybody know if the problem was rectified and what the problem was? what guns did they end up with...???