Do "advanced" shooting skills make for better LEO prospects? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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verdugo60
09-14-2011, 23:02
Hey guys. Just finished reading redneck's epic thread and WOW!

...On a totally unrelated front, I'm pondering on my career tonight after putting off homework and realized I have been getting some pretty good training and experience with professional LE lately with my consulting job and my competition.

For those that have ever evaluated candidates, or just know a lot about the process, is experience in the private sector valid?

I like handguns and carbines, but my work and passion is long distance. I have been shooting for many years and have worked with police, specifically SWAT snipers. I will be training with some elite counter-terrorist teams in Europe next month, and it will be pretty in depth(4 days) of training with police long gunners. The thing is, it's not official. I don't get a certificate, or POST credit. My question is, would an agency value this experience? Should I try to document it somehow? Should I get a job at an Indian casino, grocery store or something as security to see more action and get experience with arrests? :rofl: Ahem, seriously though, worth putting on any applications or trying to document?

Narc1911
09-14-2011, 23:11
No. In fact bringing it up would more likely hinder you in the hiring process than help.

SAR
09-14-2011, 23:12
No. Actually, talking too much about that kind of stuff at an interview might actually be detrimental to getting hired.

blueiron
09-14-2011, 23:30
It would tend to disqualify you at many of the agencies I am aware of and definitely at the one I worked at. You would be applying for a job as a peace officer, not the local shooting team. Shooting is a rather small part of the job.

Morris
09-14-2011, 23:40
Shooting is a rather small part of the job.

A tiny fraction, in fact.

Just document it like any other hobby and leave it at that.

verdugo60
09-15-2011, 00:00
A tiny fraction, in fact.

Just document it like any other hobby and leave it at that.

Roger that. Well, I guess I will just keep working on the language skills and education and leave it at that. Might help me later if I decide to apply for SWAT if I go the local route.

blueiron
09-15-2011, 02:43
Keep in mind that whatever experience you have or may get prior to the job is all well and fine, but your employer will train you to do things their way. One may have several tours of combat experience as a Marine Scout-Sniper or as a SWAT member at another agency, but each department requires things to be directly for them so they can show training and proficiency. One can have loads of experience, but it means virtually nothing at the academy.

COLOSHOOTR
09-15-2011, 03:24
No. In fact bringing it up would more likely hinder you in the hiring process than help.

What he said...

If you make it seem like you're a total gun nut / SWAT sniper wanna be (I'm not saying you are I'm saying thats how the admin in a Dept. or civil service would take it) and you'll never make it past the psych exam.

Don't try the security thing to get "arrest" experience. Security guards do not arrest people they detain them till the actual Police get there to arrest the person. Two very different things.... I don't really know many guys in LE who came from security backgrounds. The only guys I know who did security came from some of the top groups that have Federal Gov. contracts, are very professional and pretty much only hire from Military / LE backgrounds anyway. Other then that I think it's generally seen as another wanna be thing during backgrounds.... Thats just my opinion though knowing the backgrounds of those I work with and amount of nut jobs I come across in the Security fields. (I know someone else here is thinking psycho in blue shirt driving a white Vic too.... lol)

Sam Spade
09-15-2011, 05:03
No.

I'm more impressed with a skill, such as an EMT cert, or a second language.

verdugo60
09-15-2011, 11:33
What he said...

If you make it seem like you're a total gun nut / SWAT sniper wanna be (I'm not saying you are I'm saying thats how the admin in a Dept. or civil service would take it) and you'll never make it past the psych exam.

Don't try the security thing to get "arrest" experience. Security guards do not arrest people they detain them till the actual Police get there to arrest the person. Two very different things.... I don't really know many guys in LE who came from security backgrounds. The only guys I know who did security came from some of the top groups that have Federal Gov. contracts, are very professional and pretty much only hire from Military / LE backgrounds anyway. Other then that I think it's generally seen as another wanna be thing during backgrounds.... Thats just my opinion though knowing the backgrounds of those I work with and amount of nut jobs I come across in the Security fields. (I know someone else here is thinking psycho in blue shirt driving a white Vic too.... lol)

Hey guys, thanks for your input. Coloshooter, I was joking about the security thing, if you want to get it, read redneck's thread. I think I bring a lot of other good things to the table, so I will just leave out the rifle skills when it comes time. I know shooting is a small part of the job, and a lot of cops actually aren't "gun nuts" and might take it out of context.

Dragoon44
09-15-2011, 12:09
My advice, watch the original "Police academy". you start talking about your advanced shooting skills the interviewer will be thinking "tackleberry".

in a few weeks you will get a polite letter saying they are not going to hire you.

Cochese
09-15-2011, 12:48
What he said...

If you make it seem like you're a total gun nut / SWAT sniper wanna be (I'm not saying you are I'm saying thats how the admin in a Dept. or civil service would take it) and you'll never make it past the psych exam.

Don't try the security thing to get "arrest" experience. Security guards do not arrest people they detain them till the actual Police get there to arrest the person. Two very different things.... I don't really know many guys in LE who came from security backgrounds. The only guys I know who did security came from some of the top groups that have Federal Gov. contracts, are very professional and pretty much only hire from Military / LE backgrounds anyway. Other then that I think it's generally seen as another wanna be thing during backgrounds.... Thats just my opinion though knowing the backgrounds of those I work with and amount of nut jobs I come across in the Security fields. (I know someone else here is thinking psycho in blue shirt driving a white Vic too.... lol)

:wavey:

Detectorist
09-15-2011, 13:58
The most important skill an LEO can have resides between his ears. It's the basis for everything else.

Just my opinion.

Facejackets
09-15-2011, 14:06
Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but I have something I would like to ask concerning a similar topic.


What if you are baton and taser certified? What about factory armorer certifications or RO/Instructor certs from the NRA? By listing all those cert's on your resume/application do you think that may hinder you, or help?

Morris
09-15-2011, 14:24
What if you are baton and taser certified? What about factory armorer certifications or RO/Instructor certs from the NRA? By listing all those cert's on your resume/application do you think that may hinder you, or help?

Neither. It's just skills, like speaking Spanish or knowing Windows based programs.

groovyash
09-15-2011, 14:57
The only firearms skill I would consider mentioning would maybe be if you had instructor level training for police firearms. And then only if you had prior le experience and were moving to a new agency.

ArmaGlock
09-15-2011, 19:02
Shooting is a rather small part of the job.

While I agree that bringing it up during the hiring process is a bad idea and also agree that it would hurt you, it is not because it's not important or because it's a small part of the job. It's because most of the admin in today's agencies don't have a flippin clue.

It is NOT a small part of the job, it's one of the most important areas to remain proficient in and train in constantly.

I think I get where you were going with that statement, but calling shooting a small part of the job is wrong.

msu_grad_121
09-15-2011, 19:21
While I agree that bringing it up during the hiring process is a bad idea and also agree that it would hurt you, it is not because it's not important or because it's a small part of the job. It's because most of the admin in today's agencies don't have a flippin clue.

It is NOT a small part of the job, it's one of the most important areas to remain proficient in and train in constantly.

I think I get where you were going with that statement, but calling shooting a small part of the job is wrong.

I think what blueiron meant is that shootings are rare in police work, compared with things like citizen contacts, report writing, lifesaving measures, even going hands on effecting an arrest. In the sense that those are things you're likely to do hundreds or even thousands of times more often than getting into an OIS, I agree that shooting is a small part of the job.

The caveat to that is that nothing, and I mean NOTHING else will do if/when you're forced to use deadly force to defend yourself or another. In that respect, the responibility that goes along with shooting is perhaps the most important part of the job, as your department and the citizens you serve and protect are trusting that you have maintained an acceptable level of profeciency in the use of your firearm. And "acceptable" means to the best of your innate abilities, not merely being able to pass yearly qualifications.

I'd say that shooting IS a small part of the job, but the responsibility therein is a HUGE part of the job. Just my .02.

:wavey:

Bushido5150
09-15-2011, 19:47
What about martial arts?
I teach and train like five days a week. I also do free woman's self defense clinics that have spot featured on television every once in a while. This is stuff I had to put down in my background and I list Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in my activity's. Is that going to be a red flag?

msu_grad_121
09-15-2011, 20:03
What about martial arts?
I teach and train like five days a week. I also do free woman's self defense clinics that have spot featured on television every once in a while. This is stuff I had to put down in my background and I list Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in my activity's. Is that going to be a red flag?

I personally wouldn't list your martial arts, only because they're going to want assurance you're going to do what they taught you in the academy, and hence something defensible in civil court. (Although supposedly MCOLES is approving Krav Maga and some other stuff to be taught)

On the other hand, the women's self defense thing looks good, especially if you're doing it for free or some such. I can't see that being a negative, personally.

ray9898
09-15-2011, 21:53
No....there is much much much more to LE work than the ability to shoot a firearm at an 'advanced' level.

verdugo60
09-15-2011, 22:17
No....there is much much much more to LE work than the ability to shoot a firearm at an 'advanced' level.

Ok, that has been made very clear in the thread already, and I am fully aware that advanced shooting skills alone don't qualify you to be a good cop.

It makes sense that while you hope not to use it, if you ever did it could turn out to be one of the most important things in your career you would need to do well. Thus my question about advanced skills in this one important, if small part of the job.

Rabbi
09-15-2011, 22:58
I have noticed, in general, that the hardcore "gear queers" and "shooters" (the ones who spend hours showing each other their wangs and having 9mm vs 45, arguments all day) make for the most enthusiastic bad cops who dont know any better.

The Police carry a gun but it is in the way most of the time. Of the many skills expected of an Officer, shooting is just one....and most Police will never do it.

If shooting is what you are all about....cool. Make a living as a shooter. That isnt what cops do.

Hours and hours of CIT training or the like is what is important to most police work....but that isnt very glamorous.

Rabbi
09-15-2011, 23:04
Ok, that has been made very clear in the thread already, and I am fully aware that advanced shooting skills alone don't qualify you to be a good cop.

It makes sense that while you hope not to use it, if you ever did it could turn out to be one of the most important things in your career you would need to do well. Thus my question about advanced skills in this one important, if small part of the job.

"Advanced shooting skills" dont qualify you to be anything but someone who has "advanced shooting skills"

Of all the things that could happen to you as a Police officer, using "advanced shooting skills" is actually pretty far down the list.

You will do so many more important things, day after day. If you cant do those, you wont be a cop very long.

You will use a pen 10,000 times more than you use your gun. No one every posts or asks "I am a world class writer, will that help me in Police work" (it will)

AGain, not very glamorous.

South Fla
09-15-2011, 23:23
I think what blueiron meant is that shootings are rare in police work....

I'd say that shooting IS a small part of the job, but the responsibility therein is a HUGE part of the job.

And sniper shooting is even a smaller fraction of shootings in police work.

If you want to get on a police department and do your counter-terrorism stuff and sniper shooting, my advice is be a good applicant for an open position some where.

And when you DO get the job, and the situation presents itself for a candidate on one of your enthusiasms, THEN you can bring out your "advanced" training.

After you get the job. Not before it.

South Fla
09-15-2011, 23:32
The Police carry a gun but it is in the way most of the time. Of the many skills expected of an Officer, shooting is just one....and most Police will never do it.

If shooting is what you are all about....cool. Make a living as a shooter. That isnt what cops do.


I agree with Rabbi here.

And, as I was taught by somebody who I consider a Sage among law enforcement officers, past, present and future was:

"Sure you can carry a gun. And, you can shoot people. But, once you pull that trigger and send that bullet down range, for one, you can't take it back and two, once you do....YOU are the one that has lost. Because why? Dropping the hammer on somebody is the LAST thing you want to do because that means that you have absolutely no recourse left and you have used up every bit of training, life skills, talent and ju-ju that you have."

verdugo60
09-15-2011, 23:38
"Advanced shooting skills" dont qualify you to be anything but someone who has "advanced shooting skills"

Of all the things that could happen to you as a Police officer, using "advanced shooting skills" is actually pretty far down the list.

You will do so many more important things, day after day. If you cant do those, you wont be a cop very long.

You will use a pen 10,000 times more than you use your gun. No one every posts or asks "I am a world class writer, will that help me in Police work" (it will)

AGain, not very glamorous.

I understand some people's concern about my question to a point. Let me clarify one more time...I don't beleive that being a good shooter makes me a shoe-in as a cop. I simply wondered if having lots of experience working with LEOs in the private sector and/or having lots of trigger time would be a good thing to list on my resume. I know not every IPSC gran master would make a good officer of the peace.

I don't have delusions of grandeur about running around with my carbine and a handgun, tappin' out tangos left and right. I have been on this forum for a while, and have talked with lots of different types of LEO on this board and others I have met in person. I understand that it's not nearly as glamorous as TV and movies and a lot of people's concept or imagination. It's a job. A crappy one at times.

Short and sweet, I know that as an LEO I will work long, inconvenient hours. I know I will write lots of seemingly pointless mundane reports about people's worst behavior. I will probably experience burnout at times, frustrations with administration and policies and won't get paid a ton to do it.

Do I know everything? Not at all. Will I benefit from basic P.O.S.T or FLETC or wherever I end up being trained? Obviously.

So...thanks all those that have given your perspective about my question. The braintrust on coptalk is very valuable for many of us wanting to really understand as much as possible about the job, before doing it.

And on a sidenote, I don't think being a good shooter, or being trained before by non LEO makes me a "dick comparing gear queer." As a police officer, it will be my hobby, like it is now. Some will cross over in my training, a lot probably won't.

blueiron
09-15-2011, 23:43
What if you are baton and taser certified? What about factory armorer certifications or RO/Instructor certs from the NRA? By listing all those cert's on your resume/application do you think that may hinder you, or help?

If you are a State certified LE trainer, then it has some merit. The NRA, private Taser, private baton, and factory armorer certifications mean nothing to agencies that I am familiar with.

In my former agency, if one was an AZPOST [State certified] driving instructor, it was a nice bonus. It did not ensure that the training section would use them as an instructor. All position selections were competitive in nature.

verdugo60
09-15-2011, 23:48
And sniper shooting is even a smaller fraction of shootings in police work.

If you want to get on a police department and do your counter-terrorism stuff and sniper shooting, my advice is be a good applicant for an open position some where.

And when you DO get the job, and the situation presents itself for a candidate on one of your enthusiasms, THEN you can bring out your "advanced" training.

After you get the job. Not before it.

Thank you, that's very good advice. This is why I asked the question in the first place.

verdugo60
09-15-2011, 23:53
"Advanced shooting skills" dont qualify you to be anything but someone who has "advanced shooting skills"

Of all the things that could happen to you as a Police officer, using "advanced shooting skills" is actually pretty far down the list.

You will do so many more important things, day after day. If you cant do those, you wont be a cop very long.

You will use a pen 10,000 times more than you use your gun. No one every posts or asks "I am a world class writer, will that help me in Police work" (it will)

AGain, not very glamorous.

Rabbi, I don't know your specific experience, as I am not a constant participant here, but I think you are spot on with the writing bit. My good buddy got hired with the USSS without prior military or police experience because he wrote good sample essays. He said the recruiter told him that was very valuable and I'm sure that's true for not only 1811's but any other LEO.

Guess all these writing classes and APA formatted papers will come in handy after all. Good thing, I'm sure paying enough for them. :faint:

jpa
09-16-2011, 11:57
Tell them you were a member of an elite strike force at one of America's largest shopping centers....then detail your experience doing the EVOC course in the armored golf cart....

Rabbi
09-16-2011, 12:12
The physical tools I seem to use the most

http://us.cdn2.123rf.com/168nwm/robynmac/robynmac1002/robynmac100200001/6401776-small-spiral-notebook-with-fountain-pen-isolated-on-white.jpg

http://www.flashlightwizard.com/images/streamlight-stinger-ds-led-hp.jpg

http://www.florawrecker.com/Merchant2/I/TRSDV01.JPG

I have to take notes, see things and be seen.

Weapons are at the bottom of the list.

Rabbi
09-16-2011, 12:16
BTW, (toungue in cheek) the one skill most every one talks about already having is weapons and tactics, when they want to go into LE.

...I have always though, if you really want to get the job, show them you already have your States/Agencies crash report memorized and can fill one out in minutes...

steveksux
09-16-2011, 13:24
What about martial arts?
I teach and train like five days a week. I also do free woman's self defense clinics that have spot featured on television every once in a while.
On the other hand, the women's self defense thing looks good, especially if you're doing it for free or some such. I can't see that being a negative, personally.I don't know, dressing up like a woman to take self defense classes sounds like a red flag to me... :tongueout::rofl: He didn't say he taught the class... :)

Randy

Bushido5150
09-16-2011, 15:35
I don't know, dressing up like a woman to take self defense classes sounds like a red flag to me... :tongueout::rofl: He didn't say he taught the class... :)

Randy

hey womans clothes are so much softer!

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

scottydl
09-16-2011, 15:44
I understand some people's concern about my question to a point. Let me clarify one more time...I don't beleive that being a good shooter makes me a shoe-in as a cop. I simply wondered if having lots of experience working with LEOs in the private sector and/or having lots of trigger time would be a good thing to list on my resume.

As a resume bullet point, sure. Just don't give it any more weight or focus than other hobbies you have and list (if there any any other ones). :cool:

I wouldn't try to HIDE what you do, or what you like to do, either. It probably will come up in an interview at some point, so you want to be natural about it and not look around nervously with the "I don't think I'm supposed to talk about that" appearance.

It may help more at an agency where you've actually DONE that work, and the administration knows you without you needing to tell them anything. Maybe. I don't know what agencies you've worked with. It could also be that someone has you unfairly typecast as a private sector guy, and might pass you over because of that. There are just too many factors in a detailed police hiring process to know what may help and what may not.

Just do what you like to do, be yourself in the interviews, and go right ahead and pursue an LEO job if you know that's the direction you want to life to head.

msu_grad_121
09-16-2011, 17:26
hey womans clothes are so much softer!

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

And now its apparent why you and I never get past the psych. Oh well, there's always Ferndale or Saugatuck, right? :rofl:

Morris
09-16-2011, 17:35
Tell them you were a member of an elite strike force at one of America's largest shopping centers....then detail your experience doing the EVOC course in the armored golf cart....

Better add your HSLD method of wearing plates . . .

ray9898
09-16-2011, 17:35
Ok, that has been made very clear in the thread already, and I am fully aware that advanced shooting skills alone don't qualify you to be a good cop.

It makes sense that while you hope not to use it, if you ever did it could turn out to be one of the most important things in your career you would need to do well. Thus my question about advanced skills in this one important, if small part of the job.

Ok....you asked for opinions and that is mine. I consider so unimportant it would not even be a factor to me in a recruit. Cops of skill levels get in the middle of bad situations every day, I have learned just because someone is good at shooting paper does not mean they will do well in a gun fight.

Goldendog Redux
09-16-2011, 17:36
Hey guys. Just finished reading redneck's epic thread and WOW!

...On a totally unrelated front, I'm pondering on my career tonight after putting off homework and realized I have been getting some pretty good training and experience with professional LE lately with my consulting job and my competition.

For those that have ever evaluated candidates, or just know a lot about the process, is experience in the private sector valid?

I like handguns and carbines, but my work and passion is long distance. I have been shooting for many years and have worked with police, specifically SWAT snipers. I will be training with some elite counter-terrorist teams in Europe next month, and it will be pretty in depth(4 days) of training with police long gunners. The thing is, it's not official. I don't get a certificate, or POST credit. My question is, would an agency value this experience? Should I try to document it somehow? Should I get a job at an Indian casino, grocery store or something as security to see more action and get experience with arrests? :rofl: Ahem, seriously though, worth putting on any applications or trying to document?

They will care as much about your shooting skillz as they care about your rollerblading skills. Physical fitness, good hair and sucking up will be more applicable to putting in for a tactical team.

A job in customer service would be more applicable to police work than a store security guard.

MF