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nohocop
09-18-2011, 12:28
Here in Texas (and probably in most other states) concealed carry permit holders are not allowed to carry in churches. Only the bad guys get to do that:

http://news.yahoo.com/authorities-fla-church-gunman-taken-custody-165308525.html

toddmog
09-18-2011, 13:03
In KS. the church has to be posted with the proper signage to prohibit carry. As a full time associate pastor and reserve deputy, I can say that our church will never be posted as long as I'm there. A couple of years ago we actually used our facilities to host a concealed carry class. Several members took the class. Between LEO's and regular citizens, our church is well armed every Sunday.

Vartarg
09-18-2011, 13:09
I retired last year after being an Episcopal priest for 25 years, and was a POST certified peace officer as well as chaplain to the sheriff's office where I served.

I've had a CC license since 1995, and have always carried in church....still do....my S&W 642 was in my right front pocket during Mass this morning.:whistling:

Cochese
09-18-2011, 13:15
I had my EMP and spare mag at Mass today.

mdehoogh
09-18-2011, 13:18
Here in Texas concealed carry permit holders are not allowed to carry in churches.

Incorrect, in order to disarm the law-abiding, a 30.06 sign is required.


http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1214 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/HB01889F.HTM), Sec. 2


(h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b) and (c) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, was:
(1) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code; or
(2) a bailiff designated by the active judicial officer and engaged in escorting the officer.

Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1222 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/HB02300F.HTM), Sec. 5


(h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b)(1), (2), and (4)-(6), and (c) that at the time of the commission of the offense, the actor was:
(1) a judge or justice of a federal court;
(2) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code; or
(3) a district attorney, assistant district attorney, criminal district attorney, assistant criminal district attorney, county attorney, or assistant county attorney.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

IndyGunFreak
09-18-2011, 13:18
Here in Texas (and probably in most other states) concealed carry permit holders are not allowed to carry in churches. Only the bad guys get to do that:

http://news.yahoo.com/authorities-fla-church-gunman-taken-custody-165308525.html

Why would you think "probably most other states"... Texas CCW laws, aren't as great as some folks think they are.

Church carry is perfectly legal here.

crzn01
09-18-2011, 13:20
Carry all the time I'm at church.

Snowman92D
09-18-2011, 13:30
I carry every Sunday at church. They won't let me come inside. I have to sit in the parking lot and listen to the PA speaker...but I carry. :okie:

IndyGunFreak
09-18-2011, 13:32
I carry every Sunday at church. They won't let me come inside. I have to sit in the parking lot and listen to the PA speaker...but I carry. :okie:

You gotta be kidding... What church do you go to if you don't mind me asking?

Dragoon44
09-18-2011, 13:35
The State should keep it's nose out of such things, whether or not guns are permitted should be the prerogative of the property owner not the state.

Churches are private property.

tuica
09-18-2011, 13:38
No specific law against that in Oregon. Cheers

Narc1911
09-18-2011, 14:28
Here in Texas (and probably in most other states) concealed carry permit holders are not allowed to carry in churches. Only the bad guys get to do that:

http://news.yahoo.com/authorities-fla-church-gunman-taken-custody-165308525.html

Most other states? You can carry in churches all your want around here, unless the church doesn't want you to.

Why the hell would there be a law preventing legal CC in church? That boggles my mind.

Sharkey
09-18-2011, 14:55
Our church (and it's a big one) is clearly posted with a 30.06 sign that CHLs can not carry inside.
We have off duty police for security.

Surprisingly, I've never seen those signs. :whistling:
My M&P9c rode comfortably in my High Noon Holster this morning.

Not an issue when I was commissioned but it is still not an issue now that I am not.

Mrs.Cicero
09-18-2011, 16:14
Every once in awhile, I find a reason to like Michigan. Being able to carry in church is one of those reasons...

You do have to get the pastor's permission, though.

Mrs.Cicero

pilsbury
09-18-2011, 17:27
I have my .380 in my pocket every time I attend church.

Ajon412
09-18-2011, 17:40
In all seriousness, who's gonna know or who's gonna tell if your legally carrying concealed in a church. I, too, carry when attending services, especially at Christmas. To quote Texas Ranger Roland Sharp (Tommy Lee Jones), "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".....:rofl:.....Sorry, I couldn't resist.....

AF-Odin
09-18-2011, 18:18
See what mdehoogh said and the references. Since 2007, a church MUST post a valid Texas 30.06 sign to prohibit licensed carry. This puts the ball in the property owner's court as described by Dragoon 44. If the church doesn't want you to carry, then they MUST post 30.06 signs. If they don't care or choose to ignore the situation and do not post then, No sign, NO PROBLEM. I know of several folks at my church in Texas that regularly carry.

nohocop
09-18-2011, 19:05
Point well taken, it needs to have a 30.06 sign. What I find astounding is that the legislature thought churches to be one of those places that it had to SPECIFICALLY name in the CHL law as a sensitive place where we just may not want law-abiding, righteous citizens to carry. It makes no sense!!

Also, to all of those of you who said you carry anyway, despite what the law might say, I sympathize, but you are still breaking the law. I'm not making a holier than thou argument, I'm just saying you are putting yourself "above the law" because you don't agree with it. That is a slippery slope.

Sharkey
09-18-2011, 22:28
Also, to all of those of you who said you carry anyway, despite what the law might say, I sympathize, but you are still breaking the law. I'm not making a holier than thou argument, I'm just saying you are putting yourself "above the law" because you don't agree with it. That is a slippery slope.

I never understood the rationale.
I have my CHL and can carry a lot of places but a church that is posted, a hospital, racetrack, etc. makes me a criminal?

I can own a shotgun with a 18.5 barrel but one with a 17.5 makes me a felon?
It ain't a slippery slope to me. I would hope most of us are "above the law"considering some of the crap legislatures seem to pass.

Hack
09-19-2011, 08:25
I carry discreetly, no signs are posted, and do so with certain people having a clue that I may carry, but we tend to go with, "Don't ask, and don't tell." People who know me know what kind of people I have to deal with and realize that they get let loose from custody when it is time to do so, which makes me and my family a possible target for the bad guys. They also know that I have the congregation's safety in mind.

Kaybe
09-19-2011, 08:43
In Ohio, you have to get permission from the church. I have and do carry every Sunday.

mikekjg
09-19-2011, 08:46
Can't carry in church in Arkansas. In fact a bill was introduced to change that law this year, but it was voted down.

It does not make sense.

Peace Frog
09-19-2011, 09:54
Not true.You can carry in church in Texas unless its posted with a legal 30.06 sign.
And in every other state if the church wanted to restrict CCW or open carry they could legally do that...Hopefully none will restrict carry of any type.
In all my years I've never seen a legal 30.06 sign posted at a church in Texas.

I carry every single time I go to church.Pistol,fixed blade knife...never any problems.



:wavey:

BailRecoveryAgent
09-19-2011, 10:24
Why would you think "probably most other states"... Texas CCW laws, aren't as great as some folks think they are.

Church carry is perfectly legal here.

Same here in good ol' Washington State; open carry, shall issue, preemption laws, church carry without having to ask permission from a pastor or board of any kind.

Glock, spare mag, pocket knife, and my Bible are my Sunday mornin, Sunday evenin, and wednesday evenin prayer meeting carry.

scottydl
09-19-2011, 11:41
I'm assuming most of us have an LEO carry exception regardless of state, which I certainly use for church carry. Glock 27 and a spare magazine ride comfortably in my Thunderwear every Sunday. Often on stage too, as I am involved in the production of many services. I go to a large church, average attendance around 5000 people every week. There are lots of us off-duty there at any given time, and we meet every 1-2 months with church staff to discuss any current known threats or areas of concern.

lawman800
09-19-2011, 11:44
Since there is no right to ccw in CA, and a ccw is as rare as a principled progressive liberal, the churches have not made issue. I carry to church, one pastor was perturbed, but I told him I will not be disarmed. I then just kept it out of sight and he never mentioned it again.

It makes no sense to disarm good guys in the house of God. Heck, we go in uniform too and it's fine so what is the difference when I am in plain clothes?

As an aside, my buddy regularly does off duty security at a Jewish temple. They hire us because we are the only ones that get to ccw in LA.

CodyBoy
09-19-2011, 12:58
Here in Texas (and probably in most other states) concealed carry permit holders are not allowed to carry in churches. Only the bad guys get to do that:

http://news.yahoo.com/authorities-fla-church-gunman-taken-custody-165308525.html

Why do people keep saying we cannot carry in churches, hospitals.....


Keep reading the fine print down below where it says you can't.

Yes you can, unless its posted.

nohocop
09-19-2011, 16:17
Well that's the problem. In Texas the CHL law allows calls out hospitals and churches as places where they want to discourage concealed carry. All the hospitals I have visited in DFW have 30.06 signs, presumably in response to legislative encouragement to post those signs. Part of the reason those places post is to avoid the lawsuit that they were negligent if they did not post and something bad happened there.

The point is, banning concealed carry in churches and hospitals by encouraging the posting of 30.06 signs is just plain stupid and bad law. It takes firearms out of the hands of the good guys.

Brucev
09-19-2011, 17:52
I've been a full-time vocational pastor for 30 years. I've pastored form the inner-city of New Orleans to rural areas. Occasionally we've had to deal with a individual who entered the building and acted out inappropriately. In my state, cc in a church is a no go. In general I affirm that. I would not allow a cc at a wedding/funeral period. In situations fraught with emotion, I trust no one with a weapon. In general worship services, if ask, I'd consider the individual and decide accordingly. I would be fine with a sworn LEO carrying a ccw in a service. If they were in uniform and armed, that would be fine. I would not allow anyone to simply enter with a ccw simply because they wanted to. If they hid what they were doing, against the clearly stated position adopted by myself and the church board, then they would be to me no different than any other dishonest person. The church in conference makes its own decisions as to how it will handle matters of concern to the congregation. It is incumbent upon anyone, member or visitor or whoever to abide by the will of the congregation.

lawman800
09-19-2011, 22:20
I would not allow a cc at a wedding/funeral period. In situations fraught with emotion, I trust no one with a weapon.

I agree that it's your church and the board decision regarding ccw is all within your rights. However, I don't know about your basis for your decisions.

The last few years, I have had to attend many weddings and funerals and I carried to every one of them, sometimes at the request of the host. Every cop in attendance carried. They weren't all cop weddings and funerals either.

Angry Fist
09-19-2011, 22:32
Requires pastor's permission in MO. Otherwise, it's on the ban list. From what I hear, it's never a problem.

I sold my cloak....

merlynusn
09-20-2011, 09:26
In Virginia:

18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm#WhereUnlawfultoCarry

toshbar
09-20-2011, 09:51
What is the deal with Catholic churches that also have a parish school on the same parcel of land?

In NC btw, where firearms on any 'educational property' is against the law.

BailRecoveryAgent
09-20-2011, 11:58
I've been a full-time vocational pastor for 30 years. I've pastored form the inner-city of New Orleans to rural areas. Occasionally we've had to deal with a individual who entered the building and acted out inappropriately. In my state, cc in a church is a no go. In general I affirm that. I would not allow a cc at a wedding/funeral period. In situations fraught with emotion, I trust no one with a weapon. In general worship services, if ask, I'd consider the individual and decide accordingly. I would be fine with a sworn LEO carrying a ccw in a service. If they were in uniform and armed, that would be fine. I would not allow anyone to simply enter with a ccw simply because they wanted to. If they hid what they were doing, against the clearly stated position adopted by myself and the church board, then they would be to me no different than any other dishonest person. The church in conference makes its own decisions as to how it will handle matters of concern to the congregation. It is incumbent upon anyone, member or visitor or whoever to abide by the will of the congregation.

I'm glad I don't attend your church.

Hack
09-21-2011, 09:17
I've been a full-time vocational pastor for 30 years. I've pastored form the inner-city of New Orleans to rural areas. Occasionally we've had to deal with a individual who entered the building and acted out inappropriately. In my state, cc in a church is a no go. In general I affirm that. I would not allow a cc at a wedding/funeral period. In situations fraught with emotion, I trust no one with a weapon. In general worship services, if ask, I'd consider the individual and decide accordingly. I would be fine with a sworn LEO carrying a ccw in a service. If they were in uniform and armed, that would be fine. I would not allow anyone to simply enter with a ccw simply because they wanted to. If they hid what they were doing, against the clearly stated position adopted by myself and the church board, then they would be to me no different than any other dishonest person. The church in conference makes its own decisions as to how it will handle matters of concern to the congregation. It is incumbent upon anyone, member or visitor or whoever to abide by the will of the congregation.

Well, I would have to say you have a distrust concerning the people whom you have pastored over. That doesn't make for a good pastor-congregation relationship. I have been in minor positions of authority not only in my career, but also in church situations, and have been a Christian for a very long time. Knowing what I now know about your opinions concerning people and firearms I would not want to go to your church. There are a lot of people worthy of being trusted with a firearm, who have a concealed carry license in my state, including of course law enforcement of different departments and agencies who are allowed to carry under LEOSA. You have a right to your opinion, and I most assuredly agree that you have a right to your opinions concerning this issue, no matter how much we may disagree with each other. I do wish God's blessings for you, and sincerely hope that you don't find yourself in a position of needing help from a law abiding armed individual, who could be there in your church at a wedding or a funeral if it was allowed there, against a person who is there with ill intentions.

Ajon412
09-21-2011, 09:23
Well, I would have to say you have a distrust concerning the people whom you have pastored over. That doesn't make for a good pastor-congregation relationship. I have been in minor positions of authority not only in my career, but also in church situations, and have been a Christian for a very long time. Knowing what I now know about your opinions concerning people and firearms I would not want to go to your church. There are a lot of people worthy of being trusted with a firearm, who have a concealed carry license in my state, including of course law enforcement of different departments and agencies who are allowed to carry under LEOSA. You have a right to your opinion, and I most assuredly agree that you have a right to your opinions concerning this issue, no matter how much we may disagree with each other. I do wish God's blessings for you, and sincerely hope that you don't find yourself in a position of needing helped from a law abiding armed individual, who could be there in your church at a wedding or a funeral if it was allowed there, against a person who is there with ill intentions.

Well stated.....

md2lgyk
09-21-2011, 10:20
Perfectly legal here in WV. Our parish "unofficially" encourages it - collection for a well-attended Mass can be several thousand dollars.

scottydl
09-21-2011, 11:20
There are a lot of people worthy of being trusted with a firearm, who have a concealed carry license in my state, including of course law enforcement of different departments and agencies who are allowed to carry under LEOSA.

While that's true, I have to support Bruce in his right to decide if citizens with firearms should be allowed in his church. Especially in an inner-city location or other places where gun crimes may be higher than normal. Of course we all know that armed BG's don't pay attention to firearms laws/regulations, but I can understand Bruce's reluctance in opening up that door. To each church its own.

Brucev
09-21-2011, 11:41
I agree that it's your church and the board decision regarding ccw is all within your rights. However, I don't know about your basis for your decisions.

The last few years, I have had to attend many weddings and funerals and I carried to every one of them, sometimes at the request of the host. Every cop in attendance carried. They weren't all cop weddings and funerals either.

With respect, across the years I've dealt with some "odd" people coming into a worship service, i.e., intoxicated/under the influence, disruptive protesters, husbands following their wives/family wanting to argue, etc. The settings of these incidents were not some inner-city ghetto. In such situations someone has to be in charge. Sitting around waiting for someone to figure out what to do is no solution. On occasion I've had church members (LEO) who assisted. These men were armed as part of their responsibility as a LEO. They were duly trained. We had confidence in them. I had confidence in them. I do not have confidence in well-meaning people who are not LEO's. It is that simple. I am responsible as the pastor of the church. I have made the best decision that I know how to make. Respectfully. brucev.

Brucev
09-21-2011, 11:41
I'm glad I don't attend your church.

You would of course be welcomed. For information about how we handle any potential problems, please refer to post #39.

Agonizer
09-21-2011, 11:56
My brother is a Pastor in Oregon. He has a permit and he carries in church.

FAS1
09-21-2011, 11:59
No 30.06 sign at my church and .380 always in my pocket. It's also the largest church in San Antonio and I think about the 17th largest in the country. Our Pastor is a strong 2A person and would not restrict your rights. He is a hunter and enjoys shooting spots as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a CHL and carries himself.

Agonizer
09-21-2011, 12:00
While that's true, I have to support Bruce in his right to decide if citizens with firearms should be allowed in his church. Especially in an inner-city location or other places where gun crimes may be higher than normal. Of course we all know that armed BG's don't pay attention to firearms laws/regulations, but I can understand Bruce's reluctance in opening up that door. To each church its own.

If you lived in the inner city, wouldn't you want to be armed everywhere, to protect yourself? You say the BG's don't follow law and regulation. Shouldn't someone who is vetted be allowed to carry anywhere? You are using the faulty logic of the anti-gunners.

We are our own worst enemy.

Brucev
09-21-2011, 12:05
"Well, I would have to say..." At issue is not a distrust of members but confidence in those members who are current serving LEO's and their ability to deal with whatever situation might arise. We've never asked any LEO to do anything except conduct themselves during worship/fellowship in the same manner they would if they were not at a church worship/fellowship function. When my brother (career LEO) visited the church, he was welcomed and treated exactly as any other LEO. Had a situation occurred he doubtless would have responded appropriately. It is not a matter of Constitutional rights. It is a matter of our church practically responding to reality. Over the years we've had bricks come through windows, our building vandalized, etc. From time to time we've had disruptive persons who had to be asked/assisted to leave the building. We did not want to take such action. But, in the interest of all concerned that is the action decided to take.

As an aside, when families attend with infants/small children, we make available to them a nursery. Once they have given our nursery responsibility to care for their child(ren), we take that responsibility seriously. Our workers go through back-ground checks. They are supervised. We unflinchingly follow a "Safe Sanctuaries" policy for both volunteer and paid staff. When a parent/parents return for their children, their child is only turned over to them as the worker verifies that the child is being turned over to the correct parents. This is usually not a problem. Occasionally an inappropriate (non-custodial) parent/family member will come by for a child. We take care because we do not want to mistakenly release a child/children to the wrong person.

As a congregation we make our decisions in conference. The decisions made are not simply announced and then the congregation expected to rubber-stamp that decision. The options are named, explained, etc. Then, when there is agreement that it is time to vote, we vote. We have been known to not carry out a decision that was only closely approved... preferring to wait until we have a significant majority (at least 75%) before acting... either in the purchase of property, the building of a building, or any other matter serious enough that it requires the decision of the church body.

In conclusion I have pastor friends who carry a cw under their robe. And in some earlier situations I have been known to do the same thing. In this current situation we have LEO who are members of our church body and who are reliably present for our services and activities. Church's need to wisely anticipate and prepare for situations that might arise. We carry insurance in the event of fires, etc. We are wise to also anticipate and prepare for situations that might involve persons who pose a risk to the congregation. I encourage every pastor and congregation to thoughtfully and wisely plan for how they will deal with such a potential problem. Sincerely. brucev.

Agonizer
09-21-2011, 12:07
I would not allow a cc at a wedding/funeral period. In situations fraught with emotion, I trust no one with a weapon.


You sound like a member of the Brady campaign. There are plenty of situations "fraught with emotion" and CCW permit holders don't just start blasting. Your thinking is not in line with proven statistics.

scottydl
09-21-2011, 12:19
Bruce's response was better put than I could come up with:

With respect, across the years I've dealt with some "odd" people coming into a worship service, i.e., intoxicated/under the influence, disruptive protesters, husbands following their wives/family wanting to argue, etc. . . On occasion I've had church members (LEO) who assisted. These men were armed as part of their responsibility as a LEO. They were duly trained. We had confidence in them. I had confidence in them. I do not have confidence in well-meaning people who are not LEO's. It is that simple. I am responsible as the pastor of the church. I have made the best decision that I know how to make. Respectfully. brucev.

I'm a police officer so I think like one when I am armed, trained and prepared to act to protect others and not just myself. I can't really comment on my personal experience carrying as a private citizen, because I've never been in that circumstance. I live in IL so I never carried prior to becoming a full-time LEO in 2001. Just my own experience.

BailRecoveryAgent
09-21-2011, 12:21
You would of course be welcomed. For information about how we handle any potential problems, please refer to post #39.

I read post #39 and I'm still glad I don't attend your church.

BailRecoveryAgent
09-21-2011, 12:25
Bruce's response was better put than I could come up with:

I'm a police officer so I think like one when I am armed, trained and prepared to act to protect others and not just myself. I can't really comment on my personal experience carrying as a private citizen, because I've never been in that circumstance. I live in IL so I never carried prior to becoming a full-time LEO in 2001. Just my own experience.

Well, at least there are two of you in this thread who are like minded.

If you ever move from Illinois to the United States, you'll see that civilians legally carrying guns doesn't equate to massive blood shed anytime "emotions" are involved.

Brucev
09-21-2011, 12:45
Well, at least there are two of you in this thread who are like minded.

If you ever move from Illinois to the United States, you'll see that civilians legally carrying guns doesn't equate to massive blood shed anytime "emotions" are involved.

With respect, at no point and in no way was there every any insinuation made that civilian cc poses a potential for or actually results in some sort of incident. I do not live in and have never traveled to Illinois.

I and the church board have to think about more than simply what we want/like/prefer. I have been using firearms for over 45 years. I grew up in a family where we enjoyed firearms. This is common to many of our congregation a large part of whom are retired military. My identical-twin brother was for over 20 years a career LEO (deputy sheriff). At his home church, located in a major metropolitan area, he helped provide security to the parking areas, etc. We do not currently have the need for such measures in our parking lot, etc. We have used some of their ideas as well as other sources in developing our policy.

Agonizer
09-21-2011, 12:47
With respect, at no point and in no way was there every any insinuation made that civilian cc poses a potential for or actually results in some sort of incident. I do not live in and have never traveled to Illinois.

Thank you for that.

GD2J
09-21-2011, 13:00
In Virginia:

18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm#WhereUnlawfultoCarry

Along with that, people should also be aware of the Virginia Attorney General's Official Opinion 11-043 (http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/Opinions/2011opns/11-043%20cole.pdf) that says, "carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a 'good and sufficient reason' under the statute to carry a weapon into a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held there."

It also notes that, as private property, places of worship can restrict or ban firearms from their premises.

toshbar
09-21-2011, 13:26
I do not have confidence in well-meaning people who are not LEO's. It is that simple.
Wow.:faint:

BailRecoveryAgent
09-21-2011, 13:27
With respect, at no point and in no way was there every any insinuation made that civilian cc poses a potential for or actually results in some sort of incident. I do not live in and have never traveled to Illinois.


As far as the Illinois comment, that was in reference to the guy who was agreeing with you.

As far as the first part of your post, I was referring to this statement you made, see below.

I would not allow a cc at a wedding/funeral period. In situations fraught with emotion, I trust no one with a weapon.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just finding some contradictions in the things you've posted in this thread and am looking for clarification.

lawman800
09-21-2011, 13:51
With respect, across the years I've dealt with some "odd" people coming into a worship service, i.e., intoxicated/under the influence, disruptive protesters, husbands following their wives/family wanting to argue, etc. The settings of these incidents were not some inner-city ghetto. In such situations someone has to be in charge. Sitting around waiting for someone to figure out what to do is no solution. On occasion I've had church members (LEO) who assisted. These men were armed as part of their responsibility as a LEO. They were duly trained. We had confidence in them. I had confidence in them. I do not have confidence in well-meaning people who are not LEO's. It is that simple. I am responsible as the pastor of the church. I have made the best decision that I know how to make. Respectfully. brucev.

This is a bit different than your original post that you only let leo carry when on duty in uniform, but not off duty.

I go to church off duty more than on duty. And there is no more occasion fraught with emotion than a leo funeral with hundreds if not thousands of uniformed leos all carrying guns. Zero bloodshed.

Brucev
09-21-2011, 14:29
I regret that I have caused trouble in this thread. The policy we have adopted in our church was intended only to provide the best preparation and course of action possible in the event of an incident. It was not intended to restrict any Constitutional right. We are members together of our local church. We try act in a way that takes into account the needs of everyone in the congregation. Our number one concern is to reach people for Christ and to grow them in the knowledge and love of Christ. Everything else is secondary. Sincerely. brucev.

toddmog
09-21-2011, 14:32
The last funeral I attended was last summer. It was a LEO funeral and I was in uniform and didn't shoot anyone.

The last wedding I attended, I was in a suit with a G19 IWB. I should also add that I officiated the wedding. Again, no one was shot.

M5Instructor
09-21-2011, 14:35
Here in Israel we are actually encouraged to carry at our local synagogues. When I used to volunteer with the police, we actually had people assigned to different synagogues for the holidays.

On our usual sabbath services, there are at least 3 people carrying a handgun and no one gets hot and bothered.

We also do not have problems in hospitals. My physician does not get upset when he sees my G19 during a physical exam.

The only places where I have to check my gun are some museums, government offices and courthouses. There are some large public events where firearms are prohibited like stadiums, dance clubs and some others.

On the other hand, it is not all that easy to get a pistol permit. (Here with a permit you can carry open or concealed).

Again, no problem carrying in synagogues here. But then Psalm 144 was written here ;)

Triple7
09-21-2011, 14:36
Myself and several other decons at our church carry. We also have a "security" team that if it is your week wears in ears.

Brucev
09-21-2011, 14:54
This is a bit different than your original post that you only let leo carry when on duty in uniform, but not off duty.

I go to church off duty more than on duty. And there is no more occasion fraught with emotion than a leo funeral with hundreds if not thousands of uniformed leos all carrying guns. Zero bloodshed.

I buried my brother on 4/20/2005. The audience in attendance numbered well over 1,500 people. Well over 200 officers from his department were in attendance. From the pulpit and throughout the pews, emotion was very high. There were many tears shed.

I have some experience with people who are dealing, not always well, with extreme emotion. When emotionally distraught, some people have been known to do such things as try to climb into the casket with the deceased, lash out at those they consider did not do enough or were not close enough, etc. Sometimes weddings can be for particular individuals in a family difficult. For instance... a member of the grooms family who attends the service drunk decided during the service to get up and approach the groom wanting to "fight." He was escorted quietly from the premises. On another occasion during a morning worship service a gentleman stood up while I was speaking and said he had something to say to the church. As senior pastor, I am in charge of the pulpit. I informed him he would not be allowed to speak from the pulpit and that any presentation he might want to make would have to be cleared through my office. That one of our members was present in the foyer and available if needed to assist was very helpful.

Agonizer
09-21-2011, 16:38
Here in Israel we are actually encouraged to carry at our local synagogues. When I used to volunteer with the police, we actually had people assigned to different synagogues for the holidays.

On our usual sabbath services, there are at least 3 people carrying a handgun and no one gets hot and bothered.

We also do not have problems in hospitals. My physician does not get upset when he sees my G19 during a physical exam.

The only places where I have to check my gun are some museums, government offices and courthouses. There are some large public events where firearms are prohibited like stadiums, dance clubs and some others.

On the other hand, it is not all that easy to get a pistol permit. (Here with a permit you can carry open or concealed).

Again, no problem carrying in synagogues here. But then Psalm 144 was written here ;)


I was in church (Christian) one Sunday. An obvious Arab looking man in a suit came in and sat down, about 2 rows in front of my wife and I. Two of the elders and a couple of other people tried to greet him, and I couldn't hear exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of "I am a Muslim. I am only here to observe". My wife looked at me and I at her. Later my wife told me she was thinking of leaving. She was afraid this guy was up to something. So was I.

Nothing has ever happened, yet, but I have carried in church, unknown to anyone but my wife, ever since.

I still think he was up to no good. He was hostile to the people that greeted him. I think he was scouting for a possible future attack.


.

SCSU74
09-21-2011, 18:30
Here in Texas (and probably in most other states) concealed carry permit holders are not allowed to carry in churches. Only the bad guys get to do that:

http://news.yahoo.com/authorities-fla-church-gunman-taken-custody-165308525.html

the only place i don't carry mine is Jerry world

BailRecoveryAgent
09-21-2011, 21:03
I regret that I have caused trouble in this thread.

Our number one concern is to reach people for Christ and to grow them in the knowledge and love of Christ. Everything else is secondary. Sincerely. brucev.

I don't believe you've caused any trouble, just a friendly disagreement is all.

And the second part, this we agree 100% on.:thumbsup:

Hack
09-21-2011, 21:28
I regret that I have caused trouble in this thread. The policy we have adopted in our church was intended only to provide the best preparation and course of action possible in the event of an incident. It was not intended to restrict any Constitutional right. We are members together of our local church. We try act in a way that takes into account the needs of everyone in the congregation. Our number one concern is to reach people for Christ and to grow them in the knowledge and love of Christ. Everything else is secondary. Sincerely. brucev.

We have differences in opinions sure. The ultimate goal, (concern), is a priority.

lawman800
09-22-2011, 01:09
Bruce, I don't think you caused trouble either. This is a discussion forum and people are expected to have differences of opinion. That's all.

toshbar
09-22-2011, 08:56
Bruce, I don't think you caused trouble either. This is an internet discussion forum and people are required by international internet law to have differences of opinion. That's all.
I couldn't have said it better myself. :supergrin:

lwt210
09-22-2011, 09:21
Thankfully, the church that I am a member of had the foresight to organize a group of fellas ( current LE, former LE, and citizen members) that carry and more importantly, have a plan and some training.

I have no problem with someone carrying concealed at a church. Churches are targets, pure and simple.

If my wife and son are at church, and some nutbag comes in and starts shooting the place up, I don't care who center punches the guy.....so long as they do it quick and efficient to stop the threat.

Cop, former cop, welder with a CCW.....I care more about accuracy and level headedness.

Our preacher and staff are good with that. And frankly, if they weren't, we wouldn't be members.

Regards.

lawman800
09-22-2011, 09:40
I couldn't have said it better myself. :supergrin:

Appleseed FTW!!!!:faint: