Single EMP attack could send us back to 1800s. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glock30Eric
09-19-2011, 08:57
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/life-after-an-emp-attack-no-power-no-food-no-transportation-no-banking-and-no-internet

Most Americans do not know this, but a single EMP attack could potentially wipe out most of the electronics in the United States and instantly send this nation back to the 1800s. If a nuclear bomb was exploded high enough in the atmosphere over the middle part of the country, the electromagnetic pulse would fry electronic devices from coast to coast. The damage would be millions of times worse than 9/11. Just imagine a world where nobody has power, most cars will not start, the Internet has been fried, the financial system is offline indefinitely, nobody can make any phone calls and virtually all commerce across the entire country is brought to a complete stop. A nation that does not know how to live without technology would be almost entirely stripped of it at that point. Yes, this could really happen. An EMP attack is America's "Achilles heel", and everyone around the world knows it. It is only a matter of time before someone uses an EMP weapon against us, and at this point we are pretty much completely unprepared.

It amazes me that we are one step away from being thrown back to 1800s' lifestyle.

Sam Spade
09-19-2011, 09:16
1800s? Ummm, no.

The chief difference being that we know what's possible and how to make it so. Knowledge doesn't evaporate, skills don't fry.

DoctaGlockta
09-19-2011, 09:39
I remember in Ocean's 11 they set a device off to rob a Casino. The lights came back on pretty quick so I wouldn't worry about it.

Chuck TX
09-19-2011, 09:45
I don't know that it would be that far of a throwback. Electronics that run on vacuum tubes would have a good chance of surviving. Old vehicles with breaker point ignitions and carburetors too.

It would definitely cause a lot of chaos in the major cities at the onset.

Dexters
09-19-2011, 09:45
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/life-after-an-emp-attack-no-power-no-food-no-transportation-no-banking-and-no-internet



It amazes me that we are one step away from being thrown back to 1800s' lifestyle.

What? No Internet!

I don't think we could survive.

http://www.geeksugar.com/South-Park-Spoofs-Day-Internet-Died-1558782

quake
09-19-2011, 09:47
Temporary 1800's, possibly, but temporary only very short-term imo; just too much knowledge as Sam Spade points out, and too much 'stuff' for it to absolutely all be wiped out. Some stuff would survive unharmed, and that 'stuff' combined with the knowledge of how the stuff is made, would mean that more 'stuff' is quickly repaired & back online.

I wouldn't expect more than a few days' or a few weeks' disruption at most. A lot can happen in a few days or weeks, though, so it's still an ugly premise imo.

LongGun1
09-19-2011, 10:11
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/life-after-an-emp-attack-no-power-no-food-no-transportation-no-banking-and-no-internet



It amazes me that we are one step away from being thrown back to 1800s' lifestyle.


Except we do not have a working 1800's infrastructure.

No infrastructure.......no lifestyle.

Ice delivery (for ice boxes), milk delivery, etc

Self sustaining communities simply do not exist like they did!


On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?

Horse drawn wagon?

A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?

A root cellar stocked with canned goods?

An outhouse?

Wake_jumper
09-19-2011, 10:18
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/life-after-an-emp-attack-no-power-no-food-no-transportation-no-banking-and-no-internet



It amazes me that we are one step away from being thrown back to 1800s' lifestyle.

The 1800's wouldn't be so bad... the Amish seem to manage.

EMP is not a new idea. The military has been hardening all their electronics against it for years.

Any country who sets off an emp device over the USA would regret it.

G29Reload
09-19-2011, 10:58
Key word: COULD.

Too much unknown. A suicide run for the perp. Really winging it.

mac66
09-19-2011, 11:46
Probably not 1880s. The feds did a report on EMP a couple years ago. They found that while an EMP would cause major problems, it is not the end of the world. For example most modern vehicles are not as vulnerable as people believe. In tests, only about 10% of the vehicles were knocked out and some of them were able to be restarted. I'll try and find a link to the report.

If you want to be bummed out, go read the book, One Second After. Tis a novel about what happens in an EMP strike. Not entirely accurate but it will scare the heck out of you.

2@low8
09-19-2011, 12:15
Except we do not have a working 1800's infrastructure.

No infrastructure.......no lifestyle.

Ice delivery (for ice boxes), milk delivery, etc
No ice but Goat milk fresh every day, eggs too - check
Self sustaining communities simply do not exist like they did!


On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?
Hand pump for the well - check.
Horse drawn wagon?
Three horses actually - check
A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?
Wood burning heat - check
A root cellar stocked with canned goods?
Canned goods - check
An outhouse?
The great outdoors - check

Glock30Eric
09-19-2011, 12:17
Probably not 1880s. The feds did a report on EMP a couple years ago. They found that while an EMP would cause major problems, it is not the end of the world. For example most modern vehicles are not as vulnerable as people believe. In tests, only about 10% of the vehicles were knocked out and some of them were able to be restarted. I'll try and find a link to the report.

If you want to be bummed out, go read the book, One Second After. Tis a novel about what happens in an EMP strike. Not entirely accurate but it will scare the heck out of you.

I have the book with me. :)

bpe5008
09-19-2011, 12:24
I personally believe that the size and true effectiveness of EMP's are really overblown. Im not really convinced they can cause the mass destruction of electrical devices that most people believe.

On the other hand im sure Japan never believed it was possible that one bomb cold destroy one city in WWII.

I think this falls in the "Ill believe it when i see it" category, but I am all for discussion and preparedness so I think its still worth examining.

4TS&W
09-19-2011, 12:30
More likely.. one or two EMP over each coast.. it'll cover the most population. Also 1 possibly over Chicago/Atlanta/Dallas areas... if it didn't shut us down for good, whoever did it will be reaping their own doom though..

AK_Stick
09-19-2011, 12:30
EMP = not the boogyman.


powerful, and dangerous? yes.

1 second after, EOTWAWKI? Not even close.

sebecman
09-19-2011, 12:30
Except we do not have a working 1800's infrastructure.

No infrastructure.......no lifestyle.

Ice delivery (for ice boxes), milk delivery, etc

Self sustaining communities simply do not exist like they did!


On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?

Horse drawn wagon?

A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?

A root cellar stocked with canned goods?

An outhouse?

I agree with most of what you say and like most am in awe of many of your assets and value your opinion.

But I just don't agree that EMP will have such a long lasting and all encompassing effect as you do. I have read many studies on it as well and the effect on cars and simple engines just don't seem like that big a deal.

Now, the electrical grid itself, (power plants/transformers/sub stations/etc.) I agree, will suffer greatly. but I just don't see a plunge into the 1800's.

cowboy1964
09-19-2011, 12:41
I remember in Ocean's 11 they set a device off to rob a Casino. The lights came back on pretty quick so I wouldn't worry about it.

I wouldn't get scientific knowho from a movie, let alone any of the Ocean's series. :rofl:

jms123
09-19-2011, 12:42
If a nuclear bomb was exploded high enough in the atmosphere over the middle part of the country, the electromagnetic pulse would fry electronic devices from coast to coast.

I hate to say but, If a nuc that large exploded over the US. Your cell phone not working would be the least of your problems. At that point we would all be seeing our creator.

kirgi08
09-19-2011, 12:50
Except we do not have a working 1800's infrastructure.

No infrastructure.......no lifestyle.

Ice delivery (for ice boxes), milk delivery, etc

Self sustaining communities simply do not exist like they did!


On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?

Horse drawn wagon?

A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?

A root cellar stocked with canned goods?

An outhouse?

:mememe: Except the horse drawn part.

I agree with most of what you say and like most am in awe of many of your assets and value your opinion.

But I just don't agree that EMP will have such a long lasting and all encompassing effect as you do. I have read many studies on it as well and the effect on cars and simple engines just don't seem like that big a deal.

Now, the electrical grid itself, (power plants/transformers/sub stations/etc.) I agree, will suffer greatly. but I just don't see a plunge into the 1800's.

All it takes is one,in the right place.'08. :faint:

cyrsequipment
09-19-2011, 12:51
I wouldn't get scientific knowho from a movie, let alone any of the Ocean's series. :rofl:

Um, I think the original comment was using a slight bit of sarcasm....:upeyes:

UneasyRider
09-19-2011, 13:06
Except we do not have a working 1800's infrastructure.

No infrastructure.......no lifestyle.

Ice delivery (for ice boxes), milk delivery, etc

Self sustaining communities simply do not exist like they did!


On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?

Horse drawn wagon?

A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?

A root cellar stocked with canned goods?

An outhouse?

Great post!

Some percentage of us will survive but it will be a nasty transition. We just are not equipped to live without for a prolonged period of time. I believe that the population level will shrink to the level of non electrical infrastructure in a year or two, just about the time that we are getting back on our feet technologically.

G29Reload
09-19-2011, 14:47
I hate to say but, If a nuc that large exploded over the US. Your cell phone not working would be the least of your problems. At that point we would all be seeing our creator.

FAIL.

Absolutely not. One thing we DO know for certain is that a HA-EMP will cause no physical damage on the ground. Electrical/Electronic, maybe, but there will be no radiation deaths, blast wave or fallout. You may see a glow in the sky, the one the .mil tried in 1962 was 800 SSW of Hawaii, you could see the glow but nothing else happened other than circuit breakers tripped and some street lights burned out.

If you were walking underneath it, you wouldnt even notice it otherwise.

G29Reload
09-19-2011, 14:50
One thing I do know...my preps generally will hold me even if I'm not specifically geared to protect from EMP. YEars supply of food will not go bad, guns will still work bandages and med supplies will be fine. Fireplace will still light, etc.

The analog world will survive, and there are hand tools.

Sam Spade
09-19-2011, 15:00
The next thing to ponder is context. Who, exactly, is going to have the capability of "planting" a 500kT+ device 40-100km over the US? A terrorist group? A rogue corporation? Please.

So what is the US going to do with its ICBMs when a nation pops a nuke above our country? A few fried chips suddenly become a minor worry.

LongGun1
09-19-2011, 16:38
The next thing to ponder is context. Who, exactly, is going to have the capability of "planting" a 500kT+ device 40-100km over the US? A terrorist group? A rogue corporation? Please.

So what is the US going to do with its ICBMs when a nation pops a nuke above our country? A few fried chips suddenly become a minor worry.


Iran is rapidly approaching that capability....

http://defensetech.org/2009/02/04/iran-launch-could-mean-emp-weapon/

But there is another reason American military and national security officials are so worried: in at least two earlier ballistic missile launches, the Iranians launched in ways that appear they were designed to optimize an EMP burst, according to a Pentagon source with detailed knowledge of the Iranians efforts and of space technology.



Combine that with the nuclear technology & materials Pakistan is known to have transferred to Iran...

..along with this...

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/12thImam_BaptistPress060817.aspx


All of a sudden our retaliation could be both a blessing & fulfillment of prophecy!

Restless28
09-19-2011, 16:41
This EMP scare is overblown, IMO.

LongGun1
09-19-2011, 17:09
I agree with most of what you say and like most am in awe of many of your assets and value your opinion.

But I just don't agree that EMP will have such a long lasting and all encompassing effect as you do. I have read many studies on it as well and the effect on cars and simple engines just don't seem like that big a deal.

Now, the electrical grid itself, (power plants/transformers/sub stations/etc.) I agree, will suffer greatly. but I just don't see a plunge into the 1800's.


It is not the effect on cars & small engines that has my major concern..

..but the electric grid, power production, etc !

Just considering the loss of the grid with the impact just on the fuel for the cars & small engines previously mentioned..


The pumps that remove oil from the ground....tend to be electric powered..

..the refineries that process crude into gasoline, diesel, etc...electric powered..

..the pipeline pumps....electric powered..

..the payment system...electric powered..

..the pumps at your local station...electric powered.


The grid is the backbone for our collective modern way of life...

..without it for any length of time...society unravels .

..if past history is any indication.


Basically...There just is not all of the replacement components needed sitting in a warehouse somewhere..

..& the lead times on many major custom components expected to fail are in the months to years time frame..

..not days or weeks!


An major CME or EMP is not like a hurricane..

..with a line of power trucks as far as you can see ..

..coming to the rescue like the calvary!


Wish it was that simple...facts are...it is not!

Dexters
09-19-2011, 18:09
It amazes me that we are one step away from being thrown back to 1800s' lifestyle.

I think we had a manageable deficit at that time.

Maybe, it wouldn't be a too bad to start all over again.

jdavionic
09-19-2011, 18:23
1800s? Not sure about that one. If it happened, I believe there would an extended period where lots of conveniences do not work, others fail prematurely (working wounded - electronics that are not "fried" but the life of the components has been significantly reduced and performance is unreliable).

I really don't see the EMP threat as the real threat in an EMP attack. There would be a period where parts are short throughout the world as damaged electronics are replaced (i.e., not a worldwide strike where all countries are hit).

The biggest threat faced with an EMP, IMHO, is the same threat you face with any event whether it's a natural disaster, terrorist strike, large scale accident, etc...that threat is the reaction of the people. I've heard it said that we are 5 meals away from anarchy, meaning anything that causes a disruption in society to where they miss 5 meals (WRT timeframe), then society breaks down. To me, that's the biggest threat from an EMP or any other event.

cowboy1964
09-19-2011, 19:26
An EMP/CME scenario is troublesome because of the amount of time it would take to rebuild the grid. An example I see often is transformers; it takes 18 months to get one after ordering one, and that's in normal times. In a widespread EMP/CME we would need many many hundreds of thousands and there aren't tons of spares laying around.

LongGun1
09-20-2011, 06:10
An EMP/CME scenario is troublesome because of the amount of time it would take to rebuild the grid. An example I see often is transformers; it takes 18 months to get one after ordering one, and that's in normal times. In a widespread EMP/CME we would need many many hundreds of thousands and there aren't tons of spares laying around.

+1 :thumbsup:

Exactly! :supergrin:

sebecman
09-20-2011, 07:50
It is not the effect on cars & small engines that has my major concern..

..but the electric grid, power production, etc

My point as well.

I just don't think it would/could cast us back to 1800's way of life.

That doesn't mean I dismiss the possibility though!

I'll tell ya this, if it did happen like that we would be screwed and there isn't much your gonna do with a horse drawn wagon....

Our military would fall and we would likely welcome foreign occupation to quell the lawlessness that would spread from the cities.....

LongGun1
09-20-2011, 19:30
I just don't think it would/could cast us back to 1800's way of life.



Actually...if it were to pan out in the worst possible way..

..the 1800's would seem mighty nice in comparison.


One scenario...a large city in mid-summer...temps in the high 90's..

..then at 11:52 am on a workday.... "The Event" happens!

You live in a high rise apartment....no water...no sewer...no air conditioning....no elevators...no telecommunication (including your IPhone)...all because of no electricity!

You have little cash....& no access to funds because all of the banks computers are fried & the ATMs do not work. All of your credit cards with $20,000 credit limits are just worthless plastic! Anything you have of value to trade is now is practically worthless due to lack of electricity.


Now for the nitty gritty...

Just to get from your apartment to the ground floor ..

..35 flights of stairs down.....35 grueling flights of stairs back up..

..so hot in the stairwell you are drenched with sweat & exhausted by the time you get to the 10 floor!


It is worse at work 20 blocks away as you work on the 41st floor..

..but no subway to get there...no cabs or public transportation running....you walked it once to get home....not planning to on foot ever again!


Trash is piling up in the streets....along with an increasing amount of bodies that have succumbed to the heat..

..and the apartment building is starting to smell of rotten food..... & worse!

Looking out of your sealed window...you see smoke from many fires...either vandals, looters or just fires that are not being put out.

Where are the firemen, police, National Guard..

..you have no idea as you are cut off from what used to be the world of at your fingertips information!

No Facebook, Myspace, Blogs, Twitter, IM, texts, news updates....NOTHING!!!

You have no idea if your closest friends & family are ok...or even alive.




It has been less than a week since the power went out across the nation..

..but you are already low on water, out of food & exhausted!

You cannot even sleep due to the overbearing heat, humidity, stuffiness ...and the smell!

You are so desperate for relief, you even try to break out the window....no luck!


You hear gunshots....day & night..

..increasingly so as time passes since "The Event"!


You know there is no other option but to leave the city...

..you & many millions of others nationwide!




Kind of sounds like a bad "B" movie.....doesn't it! :shocked:

DaScotsman
09-20-2011, 22:25
The Good:
EMP is a line-of-sight effect. The higher the explosion, the farther felt are the effects - BUT the farther from the explosion, the lesser the effect. It's a Catch-22. To really affect a large area, you need a massive explosion at high altitude. Neither of which are easy to produce for anyone other than a handful of nations.

The Bad:
EMP of any decent size would most probably take out the power grid for the affected area. Transformers take a long time to produce, aren't produced here, and cost a lost of money. And we don't have spares. The lights would be out for a significant time in this area.

The Ugly:
An EMP event over a major urban area (think NYC, or the SoCal basin) would cause a (un)civil unrest that would make the Katrina Superdome look like the White House Easter egg hunt. That is the true wound from this type of weapon.

I hate to be the Debbie-downer, but I believe we'll see an EMP weapon used against the West in our lifetime...

Dexters
09-21-2011, 06:20
..the 1800's would seem mighty nice in comparison.


One scenario...a large city in mid-summer...temps in the high 90's..



It is the small things that interest me about these SHTF scenarios. In you example, you are right about the problems of a high rise - add to that, no water (to drink or flush toilets) to upper floors, the old, infirmed and overweight who could not walk the stairs.

Then there are the riots and fires ...

jdavionic
09-21-2011, 06:27
It is the small things that interest me about these SHTF scenarios. In you example, you are right about the problems of a high rise - add to that, no water (to drink or flush toilets) to upper floors, the old, infirmed and overweight who could not walk the stairs.

Then there are the riots and fires ...

It's like I mentioned earlier. I don't view the EMP event itself as the major issue. It's the human response in the aftermath that will be the issue. As we continue to create gov't addicts that rely on handouts for everything, imagine how they will respond when the handouts abruptly stop. Imagine all of the luxuries that many of us (myself included) take for granted suddenly stop.

I think the actual damage caused by an EMP is not the issue. Damaged parts and assemblies can be replaced. It's the human reaction to such an event that will be the issue.

Glock30Eric
09-21-2011, 07:23
It's like I mentioned earlier. I don't view the EMP event itself as the major issue. It's the human response in the aftermath that will be the issue. As we continue to create gov't addicts that rely on handouts for everything, imagine how they will respond when the handouts abruptly stop. Imagine all of the luxuries that many of us (myself included) take for granted suddenly stop.

I think the actual damage caused by an EMP is not the issue. Damaged parts and assemblies can be replaced. It's the human reaction to such an event that will be the issue.

Yup you are right.

jellis11
09-21-2011, 07:34
Will my Gen 4 still work? crap!

LongGun1
09-21-2011, 08:28
It is the small things that interest me about these SHTF scenarios. In you example, you are right about the problems of a high rise - add to that, no water (to drink or flush toilets) to upper floors, the old, infirmed and overweight who could not walk the stairs.

Then there are the riots and fires ...


Actually, when I stated "no water" I meant all floors (not just the upper ones)..

..water pressure requires either pumps..

.. or by gravity ...fed from elevated tanks higher than point of use.
(which also require very powerful pumps for replenishment)

The lower floors may have a brief respite from the water remaining in the pipes from upper floors..

..notice I said brief! :whistling:

After the 1st day ...I would not expect any water pressure...anywhere...in a large city...IMO.



YMMV

sebecman
09-21-2011, 09:40
Actually...if it were to pan out in the worst possible way..


One scenario...

Kind of sounds like a bad "B" movie.....doesn't it! :shocked:

Like anything there are levels of risk with EMP. I don't see EMP effects reaching the level you describe although I agree 100% that it is in the realm of possibility.

Especially given the frail nature of most city dwellers and our nation's dependance on electricity/fuel etc....

I happen to live in the sticks of one of the least populated states so I can only imagine the chaos that would insue in a large city.

If the power was out tomorrow I and my neighbors would be just fine for as long as needed. My only concern (and it's a big one) would be the walking dead leaving the cities and heading my way.


:cool:

LongGun1
09-21-2011, 10:09
Like anything there are levels of risk with EMP. I don't see EMP effects reaching the level you describe although I agree 100% that it is in the realm of possibility.



Keep in mind in the scenario I described...

..the grid is both the backbone of basically everything..

.. & at the same time our Achilles Heel!


An EMP TKO'ing the fragile grid & anything with a long wire connected to it ..

(telephone landlines, radio/tv stations, cable tv, cell towers, etc)

..will cause the really sucky scenario I described.


It really doesn't matter too much if cars will start....

..because they will not run long without fuel.


It doesn't matter if your cell phone can receive..

..if there are not working cell towers or a working PSTN.


Etc....etc..

sebecman
09-21-2011, 10:32
An EMP TKO'ing the fragile grid & anything with a long wire connected to it ..

(telephone landlines, radio/tv stations, cable tv, cell towers, etc)

Doesn't sound that bad to me...:whistling:

Seriously though, I get it - but my viewpoint is that the US would not be left to devolve into an 1800's or mad max scenario because the rest of the world is still turning...and scheming!

If the entire US grid goes down then so too does our military and most defenses....

SO, if the country that actually EMP'd us doesn't do it immediatly as a course of action, there will be any number of countries that would quickly invade and begin occupation.

That would likely produce a scenario where several countries are slicing us up into provinces that they could easier rebuild.

That's the part that scares me. Bring the giant down with an EMP and then then the ants devour it.....bye bye USA.

When that happens I'll be crossing into Canada....

Eurodriver
09-21-2011, 11:06
On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?

Horse drawn wagon?

A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?

A root cellar stocked with canned goods?

An outhouse?

I have a sail boat, my pantry is the ocean (ironically it is also my outhouse), it rains every day, and I have yet to see the temperature above 87 or below 65.

Never understood the desire to live in the woods during SHTF when you can ride it out in style in the Carribean...
:rofl:

Edit: thats gonna my my new SHTF Method, "Mayflower Style".

kirgi08
09-21-2011, 11:20
I have a sail boat, my pantry is the ocean (ironically it is also my outhouse), it rains every day, and I have yet to see the temperature above 87 or below 65.

Never understood the desire to live in the woods during SHTF when you can ride it out in style in the Carribean...
:rofl:

Edit: thats gonna my my new SHTF Method, "Mayflower Style".

Hurricanes and the likes,don't forget pirates.I'll bet there will be water born looters and they'll be active.'08. :shocked:

sebecman
09-21-2011, 11:30
[QUOTE=Eurodriver;17945815]
Never understood the desire to live in the woods during SHTF when you can ride it out in style in the Carribean..[QUOTE]

I spent 3 years on the ocean.

I'll take the woods.

Too much can go wrong on the water...where you are not a native species!



:cool:

quake
09-21-2011, 15:11
A little (hopefully not-too-sarcastic) commentary here:

..35 flights of stairs down.....35 grueling flights of stairs back up..

..so hot in the stairwell you are drenched with sweat & exhausted by the time you get to the 10 floor!

A valid threat with a simple solution - don't be in the city.


It is worse at work 20 blocks away as you work on the 41st floor..

..but no subway to get there...no cabs or public transportation running....you walked it once to get home....not planning to on foot ever again!

A valid threat with a simple solution - don't be in the city.

...Looking out of your sealed window...you see smoke from many fires...either vandals, looters or just fires that are not being put out.
A valid threat with a simple solution - don't be in the city.

You hear gunshots....day & night..

A valid threat with a simple solution - don't be in the city.

You know there is no other option but to leave the city...

..you & many millions of others nationwide!

A valid threat with a simple solution - don't be in the city.

Kind of sounds like a bad "B" movie.....doesn't it! :shocked:
A valid threat with a simple solution - don't be in the city.


I think I may be starting to detect a pattern here... :whistling:


All sarcasm aside, I do realize some folks do have to be city-dwellers for various reasons. Just realize (and prepare for) the fact that the more urban a location is, the more dependent on real-time infrastructure it is (power systems, supply chains, restraint of thugs by authorities, etc), and the more drastic and dangerous a failure of that infrastructure will turn out to be.

LongGun1
09-21-2011, 16:19
Just realize (and prepare for) the fact that the more urban a location is, the more dependent on real-time infrastructure it is (power systems, supply chains, restraint of thugs by authorities, etc), and the more drastic and dangerous a failure of that infrastructure will turn out to be.



Exactly!! :thumbsup:


And in the case of a Carrington level CME...

..these effects could be worldwide...

..so no rescue from Europe or the Pacific Rim.


Likewise...if an CONUS HEMP....

..there also could be one directed at Europe & the UK...

..or there could be a blockade or a threat of an European HEMP..

..so no rescue there either!


Unlike many that believe a HEMP is impractical or unlikely..

..I see a single HEMP as a perfect example of diabolically effective asymmetrical warfare..

..much like (to a much lesser extent) 9/11 was!

The ability to cause near total collapse with such a minimal outlay has got to be very enticing to our enemies! :shocked:

farmer-dave
09-21-2011, 19:25
I'm glad I live in a town that the largest employer is a remanufacturer of transformers, substations etc. Hopefully our area would be back up a little quicker then the average city dweller.

DaScotsman
09-21-2011, 19:30
I'm glad I live in a town that the largest employer is a remanufacturer of transformers, substations etc. Hopefully our area would be back up a little quicker then the average city dweller.

No, it means your area would be under Martial Law almost immediately...

LongGun1
09-21-2011, 19:47
I'm glad I live in a town that the largest employer is a remanufacturer of transformers, substations etc. Hopefully our area would be back up a little quicker then the average city dweller.


Likely you would!

But I feel sorry for the re-manufacturers trying to "rebuild" units like this one...

..damaged during a solar event in 1989.

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2010/10/26/transformerdamage.jpg
Permanent damage to the Salem New Jersey Nuclear Plant GSU Transformer caused by the March 13, 1989 geomagnetic storm. Photos courtesy of PSE&G.


A good article that goes with the pics..

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/26oct_solarshield/

A 2009 report by the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) and the US Department of Energy concluded that modern power systems have a "significantly enhance[d] vulnerability and exposure to effects of a severe geomagnetic storm."


Since the beginning of the Space Age the total length of high-voltage power lines crisscrossing North America has increased nearly 10 fold. This has turned power grids into giant antennas for geomagnetically induced currents. With demand for power growing even faster than the grids themselves, modern networks are sprawling, interconnected, and stressed to the limit—a recipe for trouble, according to the National Academy of Sciences: "The scale and speed of problems that could occur on [these modern grids] have the potential to impact the power system in ways not previously experienced."

A large-scale blackout could last a long time, mainly due to transformer damage. As the National Academy report notes, "these multi-ton apparatus cannot be repaired in the field, and if damaged in this manner they need to be replaced with new units which have lead times of 12 months or more."

HAMMERHEAD
09-21-2011, 20:49
It doesn't take an EMP, a major solar flare could knock out the power grid as well. It wouldn't destroy every chip like an EMP, but once you knock down the power grid nation wide, it will take 3-5 years to rebuild. (according to a electrical engineer commenting on the weak electrical infrastructure)


Except we do not have a working 1800's infrastructure.

No infrastructure.......no lifestyle.

Ice delivery (for ice boxes), milk delivery, etc

Self sustaining communities simply do not exist like they did!


On a personal level, how many here have access to a hand pumped water well?

Horse drawn wagon?

A home that is comfortable in summer & winter without HVAC?

A root cellar stocked with canned goods?

An outhouse?
This.

We no longer have a supply of draught horses, coal/wood power trains, blacksmiths, local dairies, local canneries, crop seeds that don't need chemicals, farm animals that don't need hormones, carts, cartwrights, wood stoves or enough wood to keep our huge population warm in the winter... the list goes on and on.
IMO, we'll go back further than the 1800's. After the anarchy subsides, the survivors will be starting over from the dark ages because we have thrown away everything from the pre-industrial world.

I know y'all think you can go and hunt wild boar or deer and survive like a country boy should, but the game will disappear very fast, too many mouths to feed, too much competition, too little cooperation.

G29Reload
09-21-2011, 20:59
Um..well maybe.

We would bring back online a lot of things that survived the change in eras.

We don't all have horses, but a lot of people do. There are hobbyists who do have metal shops, heck I live in horse country.

There are plenty of farm houses that do have root cellars. Preppers like us with oil lamps. Some people have hand tools in their shops as hobbyists and kitchens...A lot of people would be hard up.

And a lot of people would be weeded out and wouldnt survive or make the cut.

The rest of us would. In a perverse way, I'd be fascinated to see the remainder toughen up to be like the folks that built this country.

You want to be warm, start splittin firewood.
You want to eat, don't miss and dont waste bullets.
Clothes gettin a little threadbare? better learn how to sew.
Dont have needles to sew? Better find someone to barter with. Nothing to barter? Better do some work for someone. No more mall to hang out in, or nintendo to play.

Of the thousands of years of mans existence, most of it was lived without airconditioning or television.

People will start caring about what's real again. Things that don't have use will be discarded. People will stop being wasteful.

In a strange way, it would almost be a blessing to straighten us out. Painful too, but we would adapt.

LongGun1
09-21-2011, 21:16
When that happens I'll be crossing into Canada....


A HEMP or CME that cripples the USA..

..will likely do the same to Canada.


Then Canada will likely not welcome any extra warm bodies...

..unless they have direly needed skills...IMO


I do not foresee any country invading the USA..

..most enemies just want our influence to die...IMO


If they do.....several hundred million firearms & "a rifle behind every blade of grass"...might be their welcome! :supergrin:

DaScotsman
09-21-2011, 21:30
Well, I see 3 possibilities...

1. America survives, adapts, and rebuilds. I give this about a 5% chance.

2. America impodes. Civil unrest and the strain of the after effects fracture the country, and it remains permanently balkanized. I give this about a 25% chance.

3. America is subjugated by foreign entities, who seize the opportunity to wrest our liberty by controlling us with food, technology, etc we will desperately need... I give this about a 70% chance.

Of course, this assumes the EMP is a North American event. If it's a CME, and the whole world is affected, it'd be much different...

HAMMERHEAD
09-21-2011, 22:56
I think G29's post is a pipe dream.
The horses will be shot for their meat, the seeds will be eaten instead of sown.
I think the number of gun owning, but otherwise unprepared people is huge. When they get hungry and desperate, they will head to the country side in freshly formed gangs.
I don't think the organic farmer, the hobby blacksmith, the prepper with a basement full of food and lamp oil or even the Amish will survive the daily waves of city folks. The forest will be stripped bare of trees and wild game. Only the most remote areas of the country will be safe from them.

Too many freeking people in this world.

HAMMERHEAD
09-21-2011, 23:08
No offense intended to G29, I used to think the same way. Me and my buddies had it all figured out. Some tools, hunting camping equip. and a group of like minded people could make it happen.

Now I think reality will be much different, much more like 'The Road'.

G29Reload
09-21-2011, 23:38
I think G29's post is a pipe dream.
The horses will be shot for their meat, the seeds will be eaten instead of sown.


Gonna need horses to pull the plows.

I'm not saying its gonna be exactly that way, my point was that old skool analog tech may have withered away, but it has far from disappeared. We also have knowledge. We know HOW things were done pre-electricity/technology and part of adapting to a new normal means we know that hand tools got it done and we'd either use the stuff we might have buried in the back of the garage or we'd get to fabricating it, as necessity remains the mother of invention.

Yes some heavily armed folks could do some damage...but it won't go unchecked...EVERYONE is heavily armed nowadays. No one likes getting shot.

AK_Stick
09-22-2011, 01:08
EMP or a Solar flare, wouldn't be strong enough to disable every chip, the entire power grid ect.


While there may be some damage, even catastrophic damage in some areas, there will, without a doubt be running vehicles, power, etc. Lots of factors to shielding, even the earth, and local magnetic fields at the time of the event all shape the resulting pulse.

Its not like all electric power/technology will go down, and cease to exist suddenly. Some things may not work for a while, or be out of commission for lack of parts/spares, but it won't just suddenly be rusted trash where it sits.

TangoFoxtrot
09-22-2011, 02:57
My guess is this senario is most likely from a solar flare than a country detonating a nuke.Thats even if this is totally possible. If it does happen the folks who are addicted to smart phones would commit suicide by the thousands.

UneasyRider
09-22-2011, 05:31
Well, I see 3 possibilities...

1. America survives, adapts, and rebuilds. I give this about a 5% chance.

2. America impodes. Civil unrest and the strain of the after effects fracture the country, and it remains permanently balkanized. I give this about a 25% chance.

3. America is subjugated by foreign entities, who seize the opportunity to wrest our liberty by controlling us with food, technology, etc we will desperately need... I give this about a 70% chance.

Of course, this assumes the EMP is a North American event. If it's a CME, and the whole world is affected, it'd be much different...

I take number 3. So long as it is an isolated American event I think that we take it in the shorts from our own abandonment of independence. So many people who believe in collective solutions to their problems are not going to sit back and leave the rest of us alone in a situation like this.

The military survives and nobody else wants a nuclear war with us. We have nothing to offer the world to trade except cheap labor and empty houses do to decreases in the surplus population. No other country is going to help us because it's the right thing to do.

Eurodriver
09-22-2011, 16:10
[QUOTE=Eurodriver;17945815]
Never understood the desire to live in the woods during SHTF when you can ride it out in style in the Carribean..[QUOTE]

I spent 3 years on the ocean.

I'll take the woods.

Too much can go wrong on the water...where you are not a native species!

:cool:

I agree, the ocean is a dangerous place. But barring some ecological disaster it is always going to have food and with a massive die off of humans the population of fish will skyrocket immediately.

I will take guaranteed food and the ability to see people from a looonggg ways away over being safe on land.

DaScotsman
09-22-2011, 17:28
Of course, they'll be able to see YOU from a long way off as well... And the first ship you can't outrun or out gun will be the last one you see.

LongGun1
09-22-2011, 17:52
Now I think reality will be much different, much more like 'The Road'.



A lot of preppers dissed "The Road"...I did not! :whistling:

I feel mainly because "The Road" was a polar opposite of their romanticized view of what TEOTWAWKI living would be like!

It was bleak, barren, inhuman, ruthless, surviving from one moment to the next..day after day after day, almost not worth the bother of continuance..


If something (like an major EMP or CME) were to destroy our infrastructure..

..in an instant...there would be approximately 300 million people remaining in the USA..

..with an critically damaged infrastructure that may have the ability to provide for maybe for 1/100th of that number..

..1/500th or even less.


300 million competing for the resources that might keep alive only 3 million..

..maybe a lot less if remaining critical infrastructure was destroyed by mobs, looters, infighting, etc.


I feel that the overwhelming majority of those entrenched in "Lifetime Government Entitlement Programs" will be a major part of the initial problem...not the solution! That number alone is in the tens of millions. These parasites are sucking us dry to the point of insolvency in good times...I can only imagine after a countrywide catastrophe!

IMO...most in this country (especially urban dwellers I have met) do not know how to grow food, hunt/process game and safely prepare crops grown & game harvested for long term storage without refrigerators/freezers.

Immediately after the incident, there will likely be tons upon tons of meat starting to rot in thawed out commercial freezers & crops rotting in the field...due to systemic supply chain, processing & production failures..

..while hundreds & thousands of miles away people are beginning to starve to death!


Many do not get it...this level of survival is not romantic....it will not be pretty..

..scenarios like those in "The Road" are not unrealistic..(IMO)

..with those still eeking out an existence will likely be scarred for life...physically & emotionally!


Those who can envision the absolutely unthinkable becoming day-to-day reality understand..

..and also why prepping is so important to some of us!

Material preps are not for bragging rights on some anonymous internet forum..

..they are in essence... A SHTF Survival Lifeboat for loved ones & myself!

Not for just surviving the onset...but maintaining a decent quality of life & thriving afterwards!


How prepared will you be if "The Music Suddenly Stops"??


As Quake puts it ....."It is not the odds...it is the stakes"!


And there are much worse things than death! :shocked:

farmer-dave
09-22-2011, 19:37
Likely you would!

But I feel sorry for the re-manufacturers trying to "rebuild" units like this one...

..damaged during a solar event in 1989.

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2010/10/26/transformerdamage.jpg
Permanent damage to the Salem New Jersey Nuclear Plant GSU Transformer caused by the March 13, 1989 geomagnetic storm. Photos courtesy of PSE&G.


A good article that goes with the pics..

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/26oct_solarshield/

That doesn't look like a simple transformer to rebuild. I've been told some of the smaller ones are pretty simple with coils of copper wire immersed in oil. Hopefully we never have to experience a emp attack. I'm sure if we do we won't be the only nation that experiences it. I'm sure the USA would be quite capable of inflicting retribution.

Dexters
09-22-2011, 19:49
I'm sure the USA would be quite capable of inflicting retribution.

Only if it is a nation that starts it.

If it is a terrorist group - who would the USA attack?

And as with Afghanistan, what satisfaction or is accomplished by bombing a mud hut?

farmer-dave
09-22-2011, 20:54
I think at this current time it will take a govt to get a nuc device and a missile to get it high enough, or do commercial aircraft fly high enough to trigger a widespread emp effect. I guess if it's a mud hutter that does it I wonder if we could manufacture a neutron bomb.

LongGun1
09-22-2011, 21:39
I think at this current time it will take a govt to get a nuc device and a missile to get it high enough, or do commercial aircraft fly high enough to trigger a widespread emp effect. I guess if it's a mud hutter that does it I wonder if we could manufacture a neutron bomb.

An airliner cannot get nowhere near high enough for a HEMP.

To achieve a CONUS-wide HEMP...we are talking low earth orbit (Space Shuttle Territory) at 240 to 300 or so miles up.

At that altitude...the Compton Effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering combines with upper atmosphere physics to greatly amplify the effects of the EMP device!


At very high altitudes....think of the Nuclear HEMP device as a cue ball on a gigantic pool table..

..and the Compton Effect combined with our electrically charged upper atmosphere as trillions upon trillions of pool balls.


Or the Nuclear HEMP Device as a explosive detonator..

....and the Compton Effect combined with our charged upper atmosphere as a ton of TNT.


In either....small input begats a huge output! :shocked:

squirreld
09-22-2011, 21:56
Sub out pool balls with Super high bouncy balls and 1 cue ball to set em off!

Dexters
09-23-2011, 05:57
I wonder if we could manufacture a neutron bomb.

Carter stopped that program.

sebecman
09-23-2011, 07:38
A HEMP or CME that cripples the USA..

..will likely do the same to Canada.

Well that's all I got...if it gets so bad that I can't stay put.

I am curious to know what your plans for Post HEMP event include?

UneasyRider
09-23-2011, 09:38
Well that's all I got...if it gets so bad that I can't stay put.

I am curious to know what your plans for Post HEMP event include?

I'll have a look for a year or two but reallity says that I will most likely check out with the masses. I'm just not prepared for it.

LongGun1
09-24-2011, 09:25
Well that's all I got...if it gets so bad that I can't stay put.

I am curious to know what your plans for Post HEMP event include?



Well.......where to start! :supergrin:

1st.....short list of knowledge base, skill sets, & material preps for a capability to sustain & rebuild!


We have gensets, many true sine wave inverters, very long lasting & efficient 48 vdc ETA water pump & other water pumps, security cameras, communications gear, UAV, charge controllers, long term storage food, food processing equip, Katadyn & other water filters, ready spares for critical equipment, spare starter & alternator for tractor, motors, micro-wind turbines, rechargeable batteries & chargers, medical equipment, NBC equip, sewing machine, clothes, shoes, canning apparatus/mason jars, etc, air filtration, transceivers, radios, NVD, sensitive electronics, new computers & software, books/manuals on hard copy & also electronic media, PLC & other gear, etc...etc...etc...

...in EMP resistant, temperature/humidity controlled storage.


We have a 4wd low tech Diesel Tractor with the instrument panel converted back to mechanical, lots of implements, 2 identical 8kw low rpm, low tech, very fuel efficient Diesel Gensets with spare parts, and besides the fuel for day-to-day usage....700+ gallons of long term storage stabilized diesel.
We have enough filters, oil, belts, spare parts & fuel for years of operation. Other friends & family have similar setups.

We have lots of long term storage food at multiple locations, lots of water stored & tens of thousands of gallons of water storage capacity. Many high quality, long lasting Katadyn water filters with friends & family. Water wells on many of the properties, ponds & streams also. I have a large pond behind one of my homes.

Most friends/family & I have fireplaces in their homes, some with fireplace inserts (one of mine also).

Lots of 4 wheel drive vehicles with family/friends (one is ours)...4 wheelers & motorcycles (one mine).

Self contained septic systems at both of my houses. Similar at friends & family.


Lots of 2nd Amendment capability....I was a FFL for 8 years, qualified expert with handgun & M-16 while in the military, have competed IPSC & DCM, past vice-president & safety officer of a local private firing range/shooting club, frequent shooter (like when I get off work today), get to play with esoteric toys/NFA on a very frequent basis (again today), do repairs/light gunsmithing/922r conversions.... strong proponent of making my/friends/family's implements & skill sets more effective, believe in realistic practice day & night..rain/sleet or snow, have a few friends/family that are CII Mfg (I am a consultant for 2), nearly all my friends/family are very into '2nd Amendment Implements of Freedom' & tend to practice regularly also...
I have gotten most into mag fed semi-autos (AK, AR, PSL, etc) with effective optics & have made sure they have plenty of fodder to feed those implements! ;) Many have Gen III NVD. I got my CHL early on...pushed towards same...now many have CHL, some are Instructors.
Most are hunters...will be going to the family hunting camp this weekend. Another good BOL there...2 square miles...IIRC
Have access to several friend & family owned firing ranges...some good for dynamic day/night shoots, one out to approx 1,200 meters, one is a 3 mile cut-over good for really long range shots with .50 BMG & similar.
All ranges are dynamic/night shooting & NFA friendly.

Besides my primary vocations..I am a trained Industrial 1st Responder... several friends & family are professional medical.

Speaking of medical.....I do not drink alcohol, use tobacco products, partake in illegal drugs, party all night, etc. I have a gym membership & have actually started to go frequently of late! I tend to make any medical & dental health issues get addressed promptly & proactively. Get outdoors frequently, hike some & multi-state motorcycle rides are common. Normally, my BP is around 118/68, blood tests are good & basically in good health.
But I do need to drop some weight...working on that now :rofl:


I tend to be a lightning rod for preparedness & other information, think on my feet, work well under stress, read constantly, like to take new concepts/ideas & make them reality ...friends, family & co-workers bounce ideas off me all the time. During hurricanes & the like, I am the one getting the calls for assistance & advice. Some here remember the now lost "Hurricane Katrina Thread"!
I somehow see my knowledge base being somewhat more in demand after a major CME or EMP. :whistling:


Lots of useful SHTF skill-sets & vocational trades with myself, family & friends. I have owned several preparedness related side-businesses and they have been very useful to increase knowledge base, skill sets & material preps.

Enough land for crops.....have plenty of farm animals & horses in the family.

The list goes on....



If a major CME or EMP...

We are planning not just to survive....but to thrive & rebuild!



So.....What about you??

kirgi08
09-24-2011, 12:19
I'm moving in over there.'08. :whistling:

LongGun1
09-24-2011, 13:06
I'm moving in over there.'08. :whistling:





Hey...I read your bug-out thread..

..y'all are doing just fine! :thumbsup:

Cavalry Doc
09-24-2011, 14:06
Like anything there are levels of risk with EMP. I don't see EMP effects reaching the level you describe although I agree 100% that it is in the realm of possibility.

Especially given the frail nature of most city dwellers and our nation's dependance on electricity/fuel etc....

I happen to live in the sticks of one of the least populated states so I can only imagine the chaos that would insue in a large city.

If the power was out tomorrow I and my neighbors would be just fine for as long as needed. My only concern (and it's a big one) would be the walking dead leaving the cities and heading my way.


:cool:

Being in the suburbs of a small city is a pretty good place to be.

Would not want to be in a large city during a crisis. There is a certain amount of the population that are bad people. The bad people tend to get together and magnify their influence.

Good luck urbanites.

kirgi08
09-24-2011, 14:08
We are rural,and if need be we can be in outer mongolia.'08.

Cavalry Doc
09-24-2011, 14:11
We are rural,and if need be we can be in outer mongolia.'08.

I have a very rural ranch to go to also. Water, game, plowed fields, oil and natural gas. Most importantly, good friends.

StarfoxHowl
09-24-2011, 15:01
Only if it is a nation that starts it.

If it is a terrorist group - who would the USA attack?

And as with Afghanistan, what satisfaction or is accomplished by bombing a mud hut?

Not sure what would be accomplished, but any time there's a BOOM! when a button is pushed, there's satisfaction.

bdcochran
09-24-2011, 18:57
I don't think that you will be thrown back to an 1800s lifestyle.

1. people will be in a fight for survival mode.
2. the infrastructure does not exist to support a 1800s life style for virtually anyone. Take horses. Nineteenth-century cities depended on thousands of horses for their daily functioning. All transport, whether of goods or people, was drawn by horses. London in 1900 had 11,000 cabs, all horse-powered. There were also several thousand buses, each of which required 12 horses per day, a total of more than 50,000 horses. In addition, there were countless carts, drays, and wains, all working constantly to deliver the goods needed by the rapidly growing population of what was then the largest city in the world. In New York in 1900, the horse population was 100,000. I think the last stable closed last year. OP- yo- where are you supposed to obtain 100,000 horses and stables overnight? You don't.
3. All of these "what if" scenarios draw the same unbelievable responses like a. I am rural so I don't have to worry; b. I have a gun and food and no one will bother me; c. I will make my own gun powder; d. I will hunt. Garbage.

I own farmland and woodland. I worry all the time about people stealing when shtf has NOT occurred.

I have 27 people living in single family dwellings no more than 100 feet from where this is typed. If I have to be concerned about daytime burglaries committed by truant teenagers, imagine the concerns when shtf.

There are only 1 deer for every three people in the US. If every deer were shot or captured or killed on the first day of shtf, (properly butchered - ha!), how long would the food last? I trapped three squirrels this last week. Not much for a couple of people to live on when shtf -and the other people in my neighborhood don't have traps, never were in the Scouts, and never served in the military.

UneasyRider
09-24-2011, 20:09
I own farmland and woodland. I worry all the time about people stealing when shtf has NOT occurred.

I have 27 people living in single family dwellings no more than 100 feet from where this is typed. If I have to be concerned about daytime burglaries committed by truant teenagers, imagine the concerns when shtf.

There are only 1 deer for every three people in the US. If every deer were shot or captured or killed on the first day of shtf, (properly butchered - ha!), how long would the food last? I trapped three squirrels this last week. Not much for a couple of people to live on when shtf -and the other people in my neighborhood don't have traps, never were in the Scouts, and never served in the military.

You are in a great position to help people and in no position to try and fight off those kind of numbers because you would not be able to step outside of your house.

If I were you I would store food for your family and seed for when things calm down because you have it right that those people are going to strip your land bare and you won't be able to stop them. People do things in groups that they would never consider doing alone, good people too, just look at Germany WWII for an example.

Warp
09-24-2011, 21:12
Count me in the "I think the EMP risk is overblown" crowd.

LongGun1
09-24-2011, 21:42
I don't think that you will be thrown back to an 1800s lifestyle.

1. people will be in a fight for survival mode.
2. the infrastructure does not exist to support a 1800s life style for virtually anyone. Take horses. Nineteenth-century cities depended on thousands of horses for their daily functioning. All transport, whether of goods or people, was drawn by horses. London in 1900 had 11,000 cabs, all horse-powered. There were also several thousand buses, each of which required 12 horses per day, a total of more than 50,000 horses. In addition, there were countless carts, drays, and wains, all working constantly to deliver the goods needed by the rapidly growing population of what was then the largest city in the world. In New York in 1900, the horse population was 100,000. I think the last stable closed last year. OP- yo- where are you supposed to obtain 100,000 horses and stables overnight? You don't.
3. All of these "what if" scenarios draw the same unbelievable responses like a. I am rural so I don't have to worry; b. I have a gun and food and no one will bother me; c. I will make my own gun powder; d. I will hunt. Garbage.

I own farmland and woodland. I worry all the time about people stealing when shtf has NOT occurred.

I have 27 people living in single family dwellings no more than 100 feet from where this is typed. If I have to be concerned about daytime burglaries committed by truant teenagers, imagine the concerns when shtf.

There are only 1 deer for every three people in the US. If every deer were shot or captured or killed on the first day of shtf, (properly butchered - ha!), how long would the food last? I trapped three squirrels this last week. Not much for a couple of people to live on when shtf -and the other people in my neighborhood don't have traps, never were in the Scouts, and never served in the military.


Exactly! :thumbsup:


And the 1800's infrastructure (horses in his example) were for a far smaller population than now..

..so even more horses (that do not exist)

..and more support infrastructure for the horses (that do not exist either)

..would be needed.

LongGun1
09-24-2011, 21:48
Count me in the "I think the EMP risk is overblown" crowd.


Overblown??

As in the likelihood of a major CME or EMP in your lifetime is too insignificent to be concerned with??

Or...

An EMP or major CME will cause little or no damage to infrastructure??

Or Both??

Warp
09-24-2011, 22:24
Overblown??

As in the likelihood of a major CME or EMP in your lifetime is too insignificent to be concerned with??

Or...

An EMP or major CME will cause little or no damage to infrastructure??

Or Both??

Neither.

LongGun1
09-24-2011, 23:15
Neither.


In my top 5 things I believe that would have the highest possibility to devastate civil society in the USA in my lifetime..

..a HEMP is one..

..a major CME is another.


Personally...I wish the naysayers were right..

..but my research indicates otherwise!


YMMV

kirgi08
09-24-2011, 23:41
The numbers,follow them.There are too many devices out there that are available ta the highest bidder.Do I want a strike,no I don't.Do I think we can prevent one,not likely.

The US has 2 very open points of entry,south and north.There has been Islamic documents found on the southern border and our northern border is just as open.A determined foe can cross either and have support already in place due ta the fact that our immigration policy sucks.'08.

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 06:31
The numbers,follow them.There are too many devices out there that are available ta the highest bidder.Do I want a strike,no I don't.Do I think we can prevent one,not likely.

The US has 2 very open points of entry,south and north.There has been Islamic documents found on the southern border and our northern border is just as open.A determined foe can cross either and have support already in place due ta the fact that our immigration policy sucks.'08.


I was told by someone last night with solid intel on the southern border situation..

.. there has been a huge increase of those captured concerning two nationalities..

..Chinese & Pakistani .


Some of the Pakistani are trying to speak Spanish when captured..pretending to be from Mexico/South America.


They are also applying for political asylum when caught....working the system! It seems there is not a shortage of suckers for this kind of ploy!
http://www.pairproject.org/

Dexters
09-25-2011, 07:07
I was told by someone last night with solid intel on the southern border situation..

.. there has been a huge increase of those captured concerning two nationalities..

..Chinese & Pakistani .


Some of the Pakistani are trying to speak Spanish when captured..pretending to be from Mexico/South America.


They are also applying for political asylum when caught....working the system! It seems there is not a shortage of suckers for this kind of ploy!
http://www.pairproject.org/

To use a football analogy - they are flooding the zone.

Clancey's 'Teeth of the Tiger' is about how terrorist cells enter through the southern border.

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 11:52
Being in the suburbs of a small city is a pretty good place to be.

Would not want to be in a large city during a crisis. There is a certain amount of the population that are bad people. The bad people tend to get together and magnify their influence.

Good luck urbanites.


+1 :thumbsup:


I can only imagine how bad some cities could get if certain elements knew the power was not coming back anytime soon & neither were the "Po-Po"!

Would make the 1992 Los Angeles Riots look really, really mild in comparison...IMO! :shocked:

PlasticGuy
09-25-2011, 16:46
One thing I know for sure is that an EMP event would short out your Aimpoint or Eotech. I have an ACOG on my SCAR 17, along with the back up irons. Just sayin'...

Cavalry Doc
09-25-2011, 18:09
One thing I know for sure is that an EMP event would short out your Aimpoint or Eotech. I have an ACOG on my SCAR 17, along with the back up irons. Just sayin'...

Got plenty of mechanical optics. Most people do.

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 19:35
One thing I know for sure is that an EMP event would short out your Aimpoint or Eotech. I have an ACOG on my SCAR 17, along with the back up irons. Just sayin'...


There is a possibility that electronic optics may be damaged..

..but far from a certainty...IMO


Yes...there are micro-electronics in electronic dot sights that may be at-risk..

..but the wiring & circuit paths tend to be compact.


If wanting to be 100% sure (or have peace of mind) your day/night optics are going to work after an event..

..or multiple staggered events..

..yes...then by all means get a tritium/fiber optic powered Trijicon ACOG, Trijicon Reflex, Trijicon Tripower, Meprolight M21/SPRS or similar.



Personally...I keep some of my electronic dot sights in EMP resistant storage/cases & also have Trijicons as well..

..just to be 100% sure I have all my bases covered.

AK_Stick
09-25-2011, 19:43
I was told by someone last night with solid intel on the southern border situation..

.. there has been a huge increase of those captured concerning two nationalities..

..Chinese & Pakistani .


Some of the Pakistani are trying to speak Spanish when captured..pretending to be from Mexico/South America.


They are also applying for political asylum when caught....working the system! It seems there is not a shortage of suckers for this kind of ploy!
http://www.pairproject.org/


While we disagree on a few topics, I can verify what your source is seeing. I worked on the border in AZ in both 07 and 08, and the CBP guys I know, have been saying the exact same thing.


They're still the minority, but in some area's they're seeing up to a 60% rise in the numbers of those two nationality's being caught.

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 20:08
While we disagree on a few topics, I can verify what your source is seeing. I worked on the border in AZ in both 07 and 08, and the CBP guys I know, have been saying the exact same thing.


They're still the minority, but in some area's they're seeing up to a 60% rise in the numbers of those two nationality's being caught.


Thanks! :)


I wonder if DHS is involved in a "connect the dots" capacity.. :whistling:

..or if ICE is just processing them like any other "undocumented worker"! :upeyes:

Dexters
09-25-2011, 20:12
..or if ICE is just processing them like any other "undocumented worker"! :upeyes:

Probably being classified as democrats.

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 20:40
Probably being classified as democrats.



I remember this (with a wince) during...."The Clinton Era"!! :steamed:


"If we cannot breed more Democrats..

..then how about importing some?"

PlasticGuy
09-25-2011, 21:48
There is a possibility that electronic optics may be damaged..

..but far from a certainty...IMO...
Not according the the foreign engineers at the Aimpoint booth at last year's Shot Show. We asked, and they said that any optic that runs on batteries would fry (even if it's turned off).

sebecman
09-26-2011, 09:25
So.....What about you??

Well I live in a rural area outside one of Maine's few densely populated areas.

I have food and personal supplies for my family for 6 months.

We have extra clothes/materials/tools/lumber etc...

Home is heated with wood, have 15 cord on ground and limitless available on the stump.

I have the 2A assets covered in spades, like most here.

Large garden area and ability/knowledge/materials to can and preserve veggies.

Have 2 BOV's (one motorhome) and 2 BOL's - one of which is located in the north maine woods and is 4 miles from the nearest permanent residience and 8 miles from the nearest paved road.

I am not as large scale as you but I am ahead of most and building/learning each day.

MY POINT - was not what you have but how you plan to hold on to it when (if it gets as bad as you say) the city dwellers come looking for help.

Personally I will not be able to defend my home for long against an armed mob. Primarily because the walls are not bullet proof. I would love to have a stone house with iron shutters but I don't.

So my plan involves heading north to BOL and from there if needed on to Canada in the event it gets that bad. It's all I got since I just don't see my self as able to defend what I own for any length of time in a scenario that you describe.

LongGun1
09-26-2011, 09:27
Not according the the foreign engineers at the Aimpoint booth at last year's Shot Show. We asked, and they said that any optic that runs on batteries would fry (even if it's turned off).


Well.....very good info to know.. :thumbsup:

(or bad depending on your viewpoint :crying: )

..but still depends on many factors...IMO!

Still....very troubling!

Do you know what standard they used?

Percent of failures for a given test?

(Some Aimpoint models are always on {night vision mode}...wonder how that factors in)

Any 1st hand info you can provide would be very useful! :)


I was at SHOT 2010...but was consulting for a 'client' on his dime..all expenses paid..

..and we were covering ground very briskly.

Next one I go to I will have to remember to ask more detailed preparedness questions concerning EMP testing!


BTW....Did you get a chance to talk to EOTech about EMP issues/testing?

I got to talk with EOTech fairly extensively..

..but it was with sales about new products & hands on testing.

kirgi08
09-26-2011, 10:22
I reckon we gray at the above.'08. :dunno:

PlasticGuy
09-26-2011, 10:56
Well.....very good info to know.. :thumbsup:

(or bad depending on your viewpoint :crying: )

..but still depends on many factors...IMO!

Still....very troubling!

Do you know what standard they used?

Percent of failures for a given test?

(Some Aimpoint models are always on {night vision mode}...wonder how that factors in)

Any 1st hand info you can provide would be very useful! :)


I was at SHOT 2010...but was consulting for a 'client' on his dime..all expenses paid..

..and we were covering ground very briskly.

Next one I go to I will have to remember to ask more detailed preparedness questions concerning EMP testing!


BTW....Did you get a chance to talk to EOTech about EMP issues/testing?

I got to talk with EOTech fairly extensively..

..but it was with sales about new products & hands on testing.
The Aimpoint guys were almost whispering their answers. They really didn't want to advertise that their optics can't handle an EMP event. My impression was that they didn't want to lose militarty contracts to the ACOG line if military brass started thinking along these lines.

They said that even when turned off, they would still be affected. However, they noted that the same is true of any other optic on the market with a battery (specifically including the Eotech).

They said the only way to save them is to store them without a battery in them at all. I have an extra Aimpoint T1 that I now store without a battery in it, just in case.

If you get a chance to ask the Eotech guys the same questions, that would be interesting. It sounded like the Aimpoint guys were very confident in their answers though, and the discussion included some of the engineers from their factory.