Backed out primers [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Backed out primers


Tpro
09-20-2011, 17:16
Had a guy call me with a question and I don't know the answer, but I think he is incorrect in his assumptions. Keep in mind, he can't recall specifics, and this is a shot gun (this is why I don't usually advertise in the phone book but I am in one for some reason) but he is backing out primers. He can't remember what powder he was using (because he has several powders and apparently is working up a load and didn't write down his combination:whistling:) but he "feels" like the powder had too slow a burn rate so it is backing the primers out. I have never heard of this. What do you think? In a most general sense, can a powder with too slow a burn rate cause a primer to back out?

DoctaGlockta
09-20-2011, 17:27
Are you listed in the reloaders section if the yellow pages?

fredj338
09-20-2011, 18:01
There is a low pressure event that can cause this, but I have only seen it w/ pistol or rifle loads that are made up for gallery shooting (indoor, low vel). I suppose it could be the same for sg shells. That guy needs some serious mentoring. A basic rule of reloading, keep detailed notes.

Tpro
09-20-2011, 19:15
Are you listed in the reloaders section if the yellow pages?

Nope, I'm actually listed in the white pages under my business name and that is how he found me. I will not be in there for 2012. I hate tire kickers and coupon clippers and...I'll leave it there.

Tpro
09-20-2011, 19:17
There is a low pressure event that can cause this, but I have only seen it w/ pistol or rifle loads that are made up for gallery shooting (indoor, low vel). I suppose it could be the same for sg shells. That guy needs some serious mentoring. A basic rule of reloading, keep detailed notes.

I agree about the mentoring but I don't want to do it right now. He admitted his notes are crap and he is going to look at his powders and see what he thinks he may have used. He is now saying another SG reloader told him slow buring powders are noted for backing out primers and told him that is his issue. I had never heard this before and couldn't say one way or another. Just doesn't seem right to me that burn rate would contribute to backing out a primer.

unclebob
09-20-2011, 19:27
Could be he is using a taper primer such as Cheddite primers? One of the reasons I like over and under shotguns.

Tpro
09-20-2011, 20:17
Could be he is using a taper primer such as Cheddite primers? One of the reasons I like over and under shotguns.

I have not seen anything yet and his record keeping is...well lacking. I did find something that is confusing me though. My Lymand reloading manual says that "EXCESSIVELY LOW PRESSURE can cause a prime to back out because there is insufficent pressure to force the case fully to the rear" (49th edition, page 46, right column). To me (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) seems like low pressure and slow burning powders are not the same. Am I correct in my thinking here? A slow burning powder will develop pressure, just takes more time for that pressure to develop. So, a "bunny fart" load would never develop pressure. Am I making the correct linkages here? That powder burn rates do not affect pressure to the point of never getting the case to the rear, while a "light load" (aka bunny fart), even with a slow or fast burn rate could bring on the primer issue.

Dang, I'm getting a headache. What do you think?

I think I'll call a couple of powder companies in the AM. Seems like I am getting over center on the deal and that for some reason someone has made this more difficult than it is.

So if I asked the question again, I might say this: does the burn rate of a specific powder have as much affect on pressure as does powder charge weight?

That seems like a more logical, correct question to me. What do you think?

Zombie Steve
09-20-2011, 20:47
My guess is under pressure. Not enough bang to force the case back against the breechface. Nothing to do with burn rate. Without knowing the load, there's not much more I can say.

does the burn rate of a specific powder have as much affect on pressure as does powder charge weight?

It depends. How about that?

Tpro
09-20-2011, 21:28
My guess is under pressure. Not enough bang to force the case back against the breechface. Nothing to do with burn rate. Without knowing the load, there's not much more I can say.



It depends. How about that?

This is exactly what I think. We (well actually this guy) does not have enough info to make an honest suggestion. I'm just not sure of the premise that a slow burn rate powder equals low pressure.

EL_NinO619
09-20-2011, 21:49
Are you getting paid for this. And for legality reasons of this unsafe loader, I would not give him any advice and just tell him to walk..

GioaJack
09-20-2011, 21:49
Although shotgun loading is the most forgiving with the possible exception of muzzle loading there is one variable that many tend to overlook... wad pressure.

It doesn't sound like the customer has given you a lot of information but it would be interesting to know if he is using fiber or plastic wads, what pressure, (or machine setting) he is seating them in addition to what powder.

Without proper over the charge wad pressure the powder will fail to achieve proper pressure. This is easily demonstrated by loading just a powder charge into a shotgun hull, loading it and firing. The result will be a slow, dull whump with lots of sparks leaving the barrel.

Load the same charge but seat a wad, (fiber or plastic) over the powder and fire it, the sound will be a sharper whump with little or no sparks. This type of charge is typically referred to as a 'parade load', used for ceremonies or where a loud report sans projectiles is needed.

Duplicate the above load but put an ounce or so of shot over it then compressed with either a crimp or an over shot wad and the result will be a normally sounding shell.

I would imagine that an abnormally slow powder, (I don't know why you'd use that since there are so many excellent shotgun powders), might not produce enough pressure if little or no wad pressure was used.

Interesting situation.


Jack

fredj338
09-20-2011, 23:02
To me (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) seems like low pressure and slow burning powders are not the same. Am I correct in my thinking here? A slow burning powder will develop pressure, just takes more time for that pressure to develop. So, a "bunny fart" load would never develop pressure. Am I making the correct linkages here? That powder burn rates do not affect pressure to the point of never getting the case to the rear, while a "light load" (aka bunny fart), even with a slow or fast burn rate could bring on the primer issue.

So if I asked the question again, I might say this: does the burn rate of a specific powder have as much affect on pressure as does powder charge weight?

That seems like a more logical, correct question to me. What do you think?
Burn rate has everything to do with pressures & how they are achieved. You assumptions are off. I can build a "bunnyfart" load that far exceeds a sim vel load using a slower powder. A quick look @ the Lyman manual or Hogdon site will show you pressure diff at the exstremes of the powder burn rate for a given cartridge.
So yes, depending on the load that your "friend" is loading, a smaller charge of slow powder would be a very low pressure event. The slower the powder, the more likely a low pressure even will occur.

Tpro
09-21-2011, 08:33
Although shotgun loading is the most forgiving with the possible exception of muzzle loading there is one variable that many tend to overlook... wad pressure.

It doesn't sound like the customer has given you a lot of information but it would be interesting to know if he is using fiber or plastic wads, what pressure, (or machine setting) he is seating them in addition to what powder.

Without proper over the charge wad pressure the powder will fail to achieve proper pressure. This is easily demonstrated by loading just a powder charge into a shotgun hull, loading it and firing. The result will be a slow, dull whump with lots of sparks leaving the barrel.

Load the same charge but seat a wad, (fiber or plastic) over the powder and fire it, the sound will be a sharper whump with little or no sparks. This type of charge is typically referred to as a 'parade load', used for ceremonies or where a loud report sans projectiles is needed.

Duplicate the above load but put an ounce or so of shot over it then compressed with either a crimp or an over shot wad and the result will be a normally sounding shell.

I would imagine that an abnormally slow powder, (I don't know why you'd use that since there are so many excellent shotgun powders), might not produce enough pressure if little or no wad pressure was used.

Interesting situation.


Jack

Thanks for the info Jack. Like most things when someone is having issues, it takes forever to get the full details (if ever). I was told last night that it is actually this guy and his brother who are doing the reloading. They don't write anything down. He said that they decided to reload and went out and bought a bunch of stuff (possibly online without asking for help, because he won't tell me where all the stuff came from) to reload both SG and metallic! For some reason they started with SG and have not yet hurt themselves, and this is where they are at. Someone else told them that this backed out primer issue is from using too slow of powder. And (get this) they can't remember what powder they have because they bought 12 (yup, you read it correctly...TWELVE) powders...as he said...to get them started!! I have yet to ask what they are using for presses but I doubt I will ask.

So they have no idea what powders they have used (because thay have loaded "some rounds with all the powders"!?!?!) or what other components they have or use.

It's damn scarry for sure.

Tpro
09-21-2011, 08:36
Are you getting paid for this. And for legality reasons of this unsafe loader, I would not give him any advice and just tell him to walk..

So far, I'm not getting paid for this. They are at least thinking enough now to wonder if maybe there isn't an issue with the firearm, and that is why they called me. I have not yet asked who manufactured the SG. We have not made it that far. My business insurance will worry about the legality of anything I say to them. And just like the internet, I do NOT publish specific loading data. That's what reloading manuals are for.

Tpro
09-21-2011, 08:46
Burn rate has everything to do with pressures & how they are achieved. You assumptions are off. I can build a "bunnyfart" load that far exceeds a sim vel load using a slower powder. A quick look @ the Lyman manual or Hogdon site will show you pressure diff at the exstremes of the powder burn rate for a given cartridge.
So yes, depending on the load that your "friend" is loading, a smaller charge of slow powder would be a very low pressure event. The slower the powder, the more likely a low pressure even will occur.

Just want to be clear about this. This guy is not a "friend". Have never met him. Don't know anyone who knows him, or his brother. Again, as a small business, this is why I don't care to have my name in the phone book. 2011 was a screw up. 2012 I won't be in there.

That said, I know where it says in the Lyman book about burn rates etc. But your answer is exactly where I am at, in that even if it is a slow burn powder, it would also need to be loaded way below minimum to get what he is doing. I am busy all day today so I can't deal with him much but I will ask him what he is using to reload this stuff, and how they are measuring the powder. He swears up and down that they are not squib loads. And in my mind (again Fred, tell me if I'm not on track here), like you said, this condition would require a slow burn powder that is undercharged. to get what they have. In other words, even if they used the slowest powder they could find, unless they loaded it way under minimum (or as Jack pointed out, have some components missing or incorrect) you would still not get a backed out primer. That is essentially what you said above Fred. That would make sense to me. But just to say a correctly charged load (even at or slightly below minimum) with a super slow powder causes backed out primers does not yet make sense to me.

Thanks for the info. It would be nice if these two can get squared away before they get hurt.

fredj338
09-21-2011, 08:49
So far, I'm not getting paid for this. They are at least thinking enough now to wonder if maybe there isn't an issue with the firearm, and that is why they called me. I have not yet asked who manufactured the SG. We have not made it that far. My business insurance will worry about the legality of anything I say to them. And just like the internet, I do NOT publish specific loading data. That's what reloading manuals are for.

There are always going to be people like that with anything. I would make a good faith effort to correct his stupidity before he hurts himself, then walk away. SOme people can;t be helped. He'll blow himself up, then blame it on reloading & how unsafe it is or on you if you give him ANY specific advice. The older I get, the less patience I have for stupid people. This guy, regardless of his education level, is in that classfication.:wow:
FWIW, I have more than 12 diff powders, but never to start out. The fewer variables to contend w/ the better. Particularly if you are not bothering to keep records. "So was that BlueDot or RedDot, Clays or Universal Clays, AA#7 or Alliant #7", yeah it kinda all matters.

Tpro
09-21-2011, 09:40
There are always going to be people like that with anything. I would make a good faith effort to correct his stupidity before he hurts himself, then walk away. SOme people can;t be helped. He'll blow himself up, then blame it on reloading & how unsafe it is or on you if you give him ANY specific advice. The older I get, the less patience I have for stupid people. This guy, regardless of his education level, is in that classfication.:wow:
FWIW, I have more than 12 diff powders, but never to start out. The fewer variables to contend w/ the better. Particularly if you are not bothering to keep records. "So was that BlueDot or RedDot, Clays or Universal Clays, AA#7 or Alliant #7", yeah it kinda all matters.



He is going to send me a list of all the powder he has, and then I'll post them. Then we'll see how many "slow" powders he has and work from there.

FWIW I called Hodgdon a few minutes ago, and his answer was exactly what you said Fred (not that I doubted you), in that it's going to be a slow powder that is undercharged. The Hodgdon guy asked me a simple question, and I've never asked this guy. Funny thing is I never ever considered this to be a possiblity. He (the Hodgdon guy) asked me what reloading manuals do they have? I don't know. I just ASSumed they have at least one. It's possible that don't have a reloading manual! How the heck do you get into this situation? The only answer I can come up with is arrogance. These guys are soooo smart they won't ask a question until something goes terribly wrong. I also need to find out if they are having any other issues. I guess I won't know unless I ask, because they only give info when I dig for it.

And yes...I'm not going to spend too much time dinking with these guys. They need to get on a steep learning curve or they are on their own.

GioaJack
09-21-2011, 09:48
Would be interesting to know what machine they're using to load on and if they bought it new, in which case you would think they'd be documentation in the box to lead them on the right path, or used and had no earthly idea what was going on.

If they have a MEC it's either going to be a bushing system which makes it pretty hard to screw up or an adjustable charge bar.

As a good samaritan you might want to suggest that they change hobbies, perhaps curling... the worst that can happen is that they'll fall through the ice.


Jack

10mmbob
09-21-2011, 12:16
Tpro, you came to the right place for advice on reloading problems,however the can of worms you are involved in with these guys is trouble you don't need. Although you didn't ask for it, my advice is to RUN!! RUN AWAY FAST!!

Three-Five-Seven
09-21-2011, 13:21
While I agree with the idea that most backed-out primers are due to low pressure loads, shotguns *usually* have zero headspace. In other words, in spite of low pressure, in most shotguns there is nowhere for the primer to go because the breach face is usually flush with the back of the barrel.

So, I'm gonna say the gun needs a look-see.

Or.... perhaps the action is opening up upon firing, which is a malady that many shotguns exhibit late in life.

fredj338
09-21-2011, 13:49
While I agree with the idea that most backed-out primers are due to low pressure loads, shotguns *usually* have zero headspace. In other words, in spite of low pressure, in most shotguns there is nowhere for the primer to go because the breach face is usually flush with the back of the barrel.

So, I'm gonna say the gun needs a look-see.

Or.... perhaps the action is opening up upon firing, which is a malady that many shotguns exhibit late in life.
Very true. Old sg that become loose in the action will have a hdaspace issue. Excessive headspace often causes a backout rpimer @ any pressure level but certainly at a low pressure event.

Colorado4Wheel
09-21-2011, 14:10
Tell him to add 10% more powder. ;), Oh, yeah he doesn't know what he loaded so he can't do that. No mater what you tell him it's irrelevant because he doesn't have a clue what he did. So it's pointless to even talk to him about what he loaded. Seriously, what can you possibly tell him to do other then get some load data and start over.

WiskyT
09-21-2011, 14:42
I think the only responsible thing to do is to find out where he shoots and post his picture there.