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DonGlock26
09-22-2011, 06:47
2 Police Officers Charged in Death of Calif Man

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/apnewsbreak-ca-police-officer-charged-murder-14572977


I'd like to see the video that the city's cameras captured.


_

S&WM&PAR15T&G34
09-22-2011, 08:21
County DA Press Conference can be found at the bottom of this site:


http://www.pixiq.com/article/power-of-social-media

ricklee4570
09-22-2011, 09:31
Quote from the prosecutor:
The prosecutor said police officers have a right to use reasonable force in the performance of a lawful duty but citizens have a right to self-defense, even against the police.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/21/california-police-officers-charged-in-death-homeless-man/?test=latestnews#ixzz1YhCEGKMJ

Morris
09-22-2011, 10:34
Right or wrong, I see a prosecutor moving into private practice.

Patchman
09-22-2011, 11:49
Quote from the prosecutor:
The prosecutor said police officers have a right to use reasonable force in the performance of a lawful duty but citizens have a right to self-defense, even against the police.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/21/california-police-officers-charged-in-death-homeless-man/?test=latestnews#ixzz1YhCEGKMJ


Remember that what a lawyer (and a DA is a lawyer) says is only his professional opinion and interpretation of the law.

In any case, this is probably the most stupid advise the DA can give. Think about this in practice. LEOs are allowed to use however much "reasonable force" to overcome the resistance the BG is using. So if the BG is offering no resistance, getting zapped and hit with a baton could be considered excessive. But if the BG is "defending" himself (lets say kicking and punching) against the arresting LEOs, zapping and getting hit with a baton would be reasonable.

I mean, I would love to hear a defendant in court say "I wasn't resisting arrest. I was defending myself against the police..."

nelsone
09-22-2011, 12:33
Here in Oregon state law explicitly forbids a citizen from resisting a LEO acting under color of authority for any reason, even if the citizen knows he's being arrested falsely.

But this story contains a lot more detail than just the nutcase on the ground deflecting blows with his hands, and I invite y'all to read about the statements made by officer Ramos to Thomas.

CAcop
09-22-2011, 12:37
Interesting. Doesn't look good but it will be interesting to see what a jury does with it. I suspect the DA is doing 2nd degree and manslaughter so that the jury will default to the mansluaghter for the one officer. The other officer he might be hoping that the jury goes for a twofer.

What is really interesting is that one of the officers has only one eye. That is really interesting. Maybe SAR can fill us in on that.

CAcop
09-22-2011, 13:30
Reread the article. It looks like the other officer was charged with "ecessive force." That does not exist in the penal code. I think the press was simplifying or just not understanding 149PC, Assault Under Color of Authority. I am guessing the DA hopes the jury will take the lesser charge on both. I think the second officer has a better chance of not being convicted.

Roering
09-22-2011, 15:09
I mean, I would love to hear a defendant in court say "I wasn't resisting arrest. I was defending myself against the police..."

Consider the circumstances:
Police officer shows his fists and says "You see these fists? They're gonna F--- you up". Sounds to me like trying to run is a reasonable response. If he got away, he would be alive today.

If you were about to be arrested and the policeman tells you that once he gets you into the squad car he's going to drive out into the woods, pull you out of the car, put a bullet in your head, and bury you there would you make an attempt to not wind up in that squad car?

I think survival instincts would kick in at some point.

Patchman
09-22-2011, 15:26
Consider the circumstances:
Police officer shows his fists and says "You see these fists? They're gonna F--- you up". Sounds to me like trying to run is a reasonable response.

You mean when the LEO tells the guy he's under arrest, and the guy starts to act squirrely, and the LEO says "Don't do anything stupid that you'll regret. You see these fists? They're going to mess you up if you do?"

Yes, running is one possible response.

Roering
09-22-2011, 15:48
You mean when the LEO tells the guy he's under arrest, and the guy starts to act squirrely, and the LEO says "Don't do anything stupid that you'll regret. You see these fists? They're going to mess you up if you do?"

Yes, running is one possible response.

That's where it gets messy. A court will need to decide whether an attempt to flee is a reasonable response to avoid physical harm, or if one is just trying to avoid arrest.

Trigger Finger
09-22-2011, 17:00
I don't think that anyone arrested has a right to resist!! Even if it is an unlawful arrest. Who determines if the arrest is unlawful? Not the arrestee! And how can a mentally challenged person come to the conclusion that the police are trying to kill him?
A court determines that. Bad advise from a stupid self serving DA.
I will wait till all the facts are in.

I also just saw this on the news and the suspect looks like the recipient of a gang beat down!! It's is hard to believe he could not have been taken into custody in a better manner. Brings to mind constant training, tools and supervision.
Either way it's a bad situation.

For the record THIS IS NOT LAPD. :supergrin:

danielspdx
09-22-2011, 17:50
I don't think that anyone arrested has a right to resist!! Even if it is an unlawful arrest. Who determines if the arrest is unlawful? Not the arrestee! And how can a mentally challenged person come to the conclusion that the police are trying to kill him?
A court determines that. Bad advise from a stupid self serving DA.
I will wait till all the facts are in.

Unfortunately, it's legal to resist arrest here if the person being arrested believes it's an unlawful arrest. I'm dead serious. I was talking to our law instructor (former deputy DA here, cop for ~5 years now) and he confirmed it.

This opens the door to a lot of potential trouble, especially considering how much contempt there is for the police here. The TV show COPS was here a couple years ago (the show began here many moons ago, so they are familiar with us) and the camera crews were telling us how crazy it is that COPS has filmed all over the world, and no place does the public hate the police as much as here. I like to think that isn't the case, but it makes sense to me.

Back to the topic at hand:
I have yet to see any evidence that reasonably defends the officers' position. I've had to fight with suspects, and have been surprised at the superhuman strength some possess, and have been amazed at how crazy some people are. I've had those feelings during/after pursuits and fights when I wanted to seriously beat the living tar out of the suspect, but I know that is not what we do. We cannot go down that path. Yes, sometimes it'll take a pig pile to subdue someone, and sometimes a suspect just may need their ass kicked before they will finally give up, but this particular case seems so completely over the top to be indefensible. We've had in-custody deaths here, one of which has a lot of similarities to this case, however the level of trauma as a result of a beat down is completely off the charts.

It's just a bad deal for all involved, and it looks like the officers may lose it all because they couldn't control themselves. Not only that, but those of us working the streets have to deal with the aftermath and try to repair some community trust.

Mayhem like Me
09-22-2011, 18:08
legal in GA to resist UNLAWFUL arrest.

Morris
09-22-2011, 18:10
Wait until the 9th Circus gets involved . . .

Trigger Finger
09-22-2011, 18:24
"Unfortunately, it's legal to resist arrest here if the person being arrested believes it's an unlawful arrest. I'm dead serious. I was talking to our law instructor (former deputy DA here, cop for ~5 years now) and he confirmed it."

So what is the alternative? What is the officer to do if the suspect claims that THIS IS AN UNLAWFUL ARREST?
Walk away and apply for a warrant? Right or wrong that's ridicules.
Everyone you attempt to arrest will claim its unlawful and walk.

Patchman
09-22-2011, 19:02
If I were a LEO in one of those states, I'd first make sure in my own head I can articulate probable cause, and then get proactive in the takedown...

But since I'm unaware of any special issues from these states, I have to assume LE there have this point of law worked out to their satisfaction.

danielspdx
09-22-2011, 19:04
"Unfortunately, it's legal to resist arrest here if the person being arrested believes it's an unlawful arrest. I'm dead serious. I was talking to our law instructor (former deputy DA here, cop for ~5 years now) and he confirmed it."

So what is the alternative? What is the officer to do if the suspect claims that THIS IS AN UNLAWFUL ARREST?
Walk away and apply for a warrant? Right or wrong that's ridicules.
Everyone you attempt to arrest will claim its unlawful and walk.

You're preaching to the choir. Talk about pandora's box....

Roering
09-22-2011, 19:30
Kelly did at one point take a swing and connect with an officer so the victims actions are worse than those reports let on. However, the beatings went on after Kelly was laying face down and handcuffed. Some eyewitnesses state that during this he was begging for his Dad to help him.


What an awful way to go.

RussP
09-22-2011, 19:43
Consider the circumstances:...How's your son doing, Roering? What happens if citizen's no longer trust the police? (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363365)

Patchman
09-22-2011, 19:48
I think we all are aware of cases where someone starts a fight and very quickly realizes they got in much, much deeper than they ever imagined. Very quickly finding Jesus at that point is not unusual.

And a legal argument can be made that once the LEOs got the cuffs on, they should have taken a moment to re-evaluate the situation.

I'll wait and see how the trials end.

The-Fly
09-23-2011, 00:23
Being mindful of the Charlie Foxtrot the whole Rodney King affair turned into (i.e. the press deliberately altering the video footage 99% of the public viewed, etc), I'm withholding an opinion on this.

I will say it doesn't LOOK good at all for the LE involved. But there's always another side to the story.......

use2b6L32
09-23-2011, 00:53
In Kalifornia, you are legally required to submit to an arrest, even if unlawful. You can't resist an unlawful arrest, either.

This was nothing but political grandstanding by the DA. I've yet to see or hear of anything that suggests they committed murder or manslaughter.

The dead guy's father (retired Orange Co Sheriff's Deputy) should be ashamed.

ricklee4570
09-23-2011, 02:55
If you believe in your mind that someone is going to take your life (even if that someone is a cop) a reasonable person would expect you to defend yourself.

I think what the prosecutor is saying is that when a line is crossed, a citizen has the right to defend themselves. Some cops think that no matter what line is crossed the citizen should take whatever the cop is giving him up to and including killing him. Hopefully I am misunderstanding some points of view on this.

Not all cops are good people. The 2% that cross the line are a danger.

razdog76
09-23-2011, 09:25
I think we all are aware of cases where someone starts a fight and very quickly realizes they got in much, much deeper than they ever imagined. Very quickly finding Jesus at that point is not unusual.

And a legal argument can be made that once the LEOs got the cuffs on, they should have taken a moment to re-evaluate the situation.

I'll wait and see how the trials end.
:agree:

I might also point out how typical it is for schizophrenics to discontinue, or not take their medication correctly which prevents them from keeping a job, staying off the streets, and getting into trouble.

Roering
09-23-2011, 11:58
How's your son doing, Roering? What happens if citizen's no longer trust the police? (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363365)

Doing well thanks, finished up his summer job and back in school. I think he will be back for a quick weekend visit in early October.

OldCurlyWolf
10-02-2011, 11:14
I don't think that anyone arrested has a right to resist!! Even if it is an unlawful arrest. Who determines if the arrest is unlawful? Not the arrestee! And how can a mentally challenged person come to the conclusion that the police are trying to kill him?
A court determines that. Bad advise from a stupid self serving DA.
I will wait till all the facts are in.

I also just saw this on the news and the suspect looks like the recipient of a gang beat down!! It's is hard to believe he could not have been taken into custody in a better manner. Brings to mind constant training, tools and supervision.
Either way it's a bad situation.

For the record THIS IS NOT LAPD. :supergrin:

Actually it is written in black letter law in several states that such a right exists. It has also been held in court to exist. Since you don't seem to be a judge, it would seem the law in those states holds your opinion on this particular subject to be irrelevant.

Sharky7
10-02-2011, 12:03
Actually it is written in black letter law in several states that such a right exists. It has also been held in court to exist. Since you don't seem to be a judge, it would seem the law in those states holds your opinion on this particular subject to be irrelevant.

There is less than a dozen states that still allow a form of this and they are all in the South. It's one of the dumbest ideas in our modern civilized society.

If you are not guilty, have a criminal trial and plead not guilty. If your rights were violated, sue civilly. If you are not happy with the attitude of the officer or feel you were some how treated unprofessional, make a formal complaint. Non-sense like allowing these old laws to continue will lead to the meaningless death of officers or civilians. You can deal with a criminal or civil trial, but death is forever.

G21Pro
10-02-2011, 21:20
Not all people are good people...

...Not all cops are good people. The 2% that cross the line are a danger.