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Custom Builder 1
09-24-2011, 17:11
Can anyone give me some info on the Saigas. Such as what does the conversion mean and are they quality or junk. What is the cost for the conversion . Also what is a fair used price if you can estimate.
Any info can help. Aippi, many thanks for the informative posts

method
09-25-2011, 12:47
There's probably some threads on here already if you look. Conversion means taking the Saiga from its crappy importable 'sporting' configuration with semi-pistol grip stock and trigger in the wrong place, and returning it to the way it's meant to be. It requires replacing a few foreign parts with U.S. made ones, mostly stuff you need for the conversion anyhow. It's not difficult to do, I did mine myself, and so do a lot of other Saiga owners. Self done, the conversion can be done for $150, probably less.

Fair used price for an unconverted gun....I wouldn't give any more than $300, maybe $350. Converted...depends who did it, $400-who knows, $2000, depending on the work done.

Look at these links. The second details the conversion process.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/
http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/

TreyG-20
09-25-2011, 12:51
The Saiga is an Ak variant without a pistol grip. The conversion is basically moving the FCG forward so a pistol grip can be installed. If you have the know how and tools then it can be done pretty chaep say about 100 bucks. Having it done by a smith much more. Probably about 250 buck i would guess

Ignition
09-28-2011, 00:49
The price of saigas spiked between the ATF shotgun import scare. Hopefully the importation of the "m-16 like" mka 1919 12gauge, magazine fed beasts, will drop the saiga prices back down some

megawatt
09-28-2011, 06:09
Going price for a new Saiga in Vegas is $700.

To get it converted by a custom gunsmith - refinished, demilled edges, sight decanted, and headspace corrected if needed is $400 - $450, but then your talking about a custom gun.

LEAD
09-28-2011, 06:29
I think a fair price for an unconverted Saiga is around 500 converted (reconfigured to traditional AKM configuration) they tend to run around 1000 but I think its something that I enjoyed doing and you learn from the process so I'd say do it yourself.

NH Trucker
09-29-2011, 15:45
Can anyone give me some info on the Saigas. Such as what does the conversion mean and are they quality or junk. What is the cost for the conversion . Also what is a fair used price if you can estimate.
Any info can help. Aippi, many thanks for the informative posts


I bought mine back in January for $500 new, unconverted. Lately the cheapest I've seen is $700. I found that the ergonomics were nothing special and the trigger was complete crap.

This is a pic of mine before the conversion.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/298555_10150355030021649_570476648_8398292_1222895608_n.jpg



I decided to convert mine. It really wasn't difficult to do with a dremel, a drill, and some filing. The costs for the parts to do it yourself start around $200 for a basic set up. Mine..... it was a little more than that. The new trigger is MUCH better than in the origional (imported) configuration and IMO is worth it. Plus, with wanting to run a higher capacity mag or drum, you run into parts count issues in keeping it legal (922r compliance) with the ATF.


With 5 shot factory mag
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/302389_10150355058156649_570476648_8398409_1492718678_n.jpg


12 shot Surefire mag

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315841_10150355059126649_570476648_8398414_429237773_n.jpg


Stock folded

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314493_10150355060331649_570476648_8398416_1849364552_n.jpg

MD20 drum :supergrin:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/317802_10150355062796649_570476648_8398421_2005184837_n.jpg

Louisville Glocker
10-02-2011, 01:15
Are they quality or junk? What kind of question is that? IF you do even a tiny bit of research, you'll find that they are pretty awesome shotguns. Sure, they don't have the tightest quality control department, and some of the guns might need some work. But nothing major in almost all cases.

They're military semi-automatic shotguns. If that is what you're interested in, then they're the real deal. It is designed to shoot slugs, or buckshot, not wimpy stuff. With a little work (sometimes) they can shoot both.

Some posters above gave perhaps some old prices ($300? Good luck finding that one). They did spike above $700 for awhile in early summer, and have now settled down in price to where you can get a new one (unconverted) for the $600 range. (usually a bit more, but here is one from CSS - very good folks - for that price http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-505/SAIGA-12-IZ-dsh-109-19%22/Detail).

The conversion can be done on the cheap for about a hundred bucks, but many people will want a nice stock for it, which can add to the price tag significantly, and folding stock adds more. And depending if you want to put a forearm on it, a brake, etc, you can add a bunch more to the cost. A limbsaver is great to have too, because shooting 12 gauge slugs packs some recoil. Forward grip is another option. In all, your total costs can rise pretty high, but you can add gradually. I just put an eotech on one of mine.

By the way, no reason not to do the conversion yourself. Go to Saiga 12 forum for all the info you need. Kits from Carolina Shooters Supply make it easy. (watch their vids)

They are bad ass guns, that perform very reliably after a bit of tweaking. Invest in a few ten round mags, and you're ready to roll. Or you can get the MD Arms 20 round drums. Great gun on an AK platform. Really built to last a lifetime. I know I hope to never have one pointed at me!

mac66
10-02-2011, 07:33
Going price for a new Saiga in Vegas is $700.

To get it converted by a custom gunsmith - refinished, demilled edges, sight decanted, and headspace corrected if needed is $400 - $450, but then your talking about a custom gun.

I have to say that most of that is fluff and buff and not necessary. Demilled edges? Sight decanted? Headspace on a shotgun? I guess some people will buy anything.

In reality you need a pistol grip, stock and new trigger parts.

I bought mine back in 2001 when they were less than $200, converted it myself 3 or 4 years later before there was all the stuff available for them. That included cutting the barrel down. Never had any problem reliability wise with mine. Didn't need any tweaking or aftermarket crap. Overall they are not very practical (awkward and heavy) but they are lots of fun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/100_0002.jpg

jwhite75
10-02-2011, 07:45
I wont touch one until they come back down to a reasonable price. The ATF scare shot them up needlessly, and now that people have paid it the dealrs and distributors will try to keep the prices high.

Much rather spend that money on a 11-87P 930 SPX etc.

method
10-02-2011, 17:06
Some posters above gave perhaps some old prices ($300? Good luck finding that one).

Reading comprehension is vital.

javelinadave
10-02-2011, 18:29
Going price for a new Saiga in Vegas is $700.

To get it converted by a custom gunsmith - refinished, demilled edges, sight decanted, and headspace corrected if needed is $400 - $450, but then your talking about a custom gun.

The original poster is asking about a Russian shotgun, not a Romanian WASR.:whistling:

To the OP, I have helped several friends convert their Saiga from a sporting configuration to an AK configuration. It is easy and kind of fun.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/ is the place to go for any questions that you may have.

conch27
10-02-2011, 20:04
I just took mine out for the first time today. I got with a 10 round magazine and a the 5 round that came with it. That was 629.00 Since i got it from my dealer he converts them free of labor charge all you need is the stock which he had for 59. He also gave a deal on the 20 round drums for 65 if you got them at the time of the shotgun which I did. I will say it is as well made as any AK I have seen. Make sure you clean and lube that thing before taking it out. I put 50 rounds of buckshot through it this afternoon which were the first. It did not cycle very well at first. After changing the gas setting and putting about 20 rounds through her it start cycling much better and did not have cycling issues for the 30 rounds. I have heard this is common. Everyone seems to say 200 rounds before firing the cheaper ammo. I will say I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to taking it back to the range. It is clearly a quality firearm.

javelinadave
10-03-2011, 12:57
Here is a photo of a conversion that I did this morning. I still need to refinish the wood and figure out what kind (if any) of muzzle brake / flash hider to use. I'm going for the AK look on this one.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u285/javelinadave/Saigawood.jpg

NH Trucker
10-04-2011, 05:15
Looks great!

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Kona2004
10-04-2011, 05:54
I think the Saiga has become addicting for me. For a while, I went on a kick where was I building/assembling AR's (did 6 on my own). I picked up my first Saiga a month or so ago and got it to the range a couple weeks later to test it out before doing the conversion. It ran flawlessly from the start with all different shells, much to my surprise from what I had read about them. I just did the conversion last weekend and couldn't be happier with the outcome. It's very easy to do...with help from the videos at Carolina Shooters. I'll probably end up doing one more.

DD26
10-05-2011, 11:55
While I will probably send mine off for "pro" work if I decide to SBS it, due to the gas system tweaks usually needed..........I'd recommend converting your own for a non-NFA conversion. It's stupid-easy, and there's videos that can walk you through it. It's just plain fun too.


Here's mine that I converted myself:


http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u127/D23NY/701730937_photobucket_16625_.jpg?t=1297541590

glockenturm
10-18-2011, 23:01
Finished mine a few days ago. Going to range in morning. All parts ordered from Carolina Shooters Supply.
http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/leadsled213/003-2.jpg
http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/leadsled213/downloadfile-1.jpg


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Alaskapopo
10-18-2011, 23:18
Mine is set up for three gun. I am thinking of having my spare parts gun set up as a tactical gun for fun with a NFA barrel at 13 inches.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Saiga12RR.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/saiga12gauge.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/safety.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Magrelease.jpg

Kadetklapp
10-19-2011, 07:18
Great gun. With tax I gave about $625 which is about $100 too much in my opinion. I've completed the conversion using Carolina Shooter's Supply kit with Tapco parts sitting at my kitchen table. The single hardest part of the conversion for me was removing the factory butt stock, whose screw would absolutely not come free. Ended up usign a SawzAll. With Tapco, you get what you pay for.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh192/kadetklapp/mysaiga12.jpg
Since the above pic was taken, the folding stock BROKE THE HELL OFF the gun when I set it down on my desk to clean it. NOT impressed. They sent me a replacement fixed Yugo stock which sucks. Next order of business is an adjustable gas plug and better stock set. Not impressed with Tapco furniture in the least.

glockenturm
10-20-2011, 00:15
At the range this morning. SGM 8 round mag with Royal 00 buck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoa99ISJtdM&feature=feedu


8 Rounds of Federal 7 1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvVvLFHk5zM&NR=1

Overall very pleased so far.

Have the MD Arms V plug, CSS Puc, and light spring and Blackjack buffer.

Next I need bolt mod and carrier polish so I can load on closed bolt.

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javelinadave
10-20-2011, 00:21
At the range this morning. SGM 8 round mag with Royal 00 buck.

http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1024.photobucket.com/albums/y301/leadsled213/GetAttachment.mp4

Have the MD Arms V plug, CSS Puc, and light spring and Blackjack buffer.

Next I need bolt mod and carrier polish so I can load on closed bolt.

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Loading on a closed bolt doesn't require any modifications, just practice with the magazine angle and its placement.

glockenturm
10-20-2011, 00:29
Loading on a closed bolt doesn't require any modifications, just practice with the magazine angle and its placement.

Please do tell. I can do it on the factory 5 rounder but the 8 rounder has me beat.

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Alaskapopo
10-20-2011, 02:25
Please do tell. I can do it on the factory 5 rounder but the 8 rounder has me beat.

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Its highly fumble prone and it only works under ideal range conditions. Your better off getting a magwell like the R&R which makes it as simple as reloading an AR15.
Pat

Kona2004
10-20-2011, 05:33
Finally have mine competed

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af221/coxew/DSC_0991.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af221/coxew/DSC_0995.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af221/coxew/DSC_1002.jpg

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af221/coxew/DSC_1006.jpg

glockenturm
10-20-2011, 06:31
Its highly fumble prone and it only works under ideal range conditions. Your better off getting a magwell like the R&R which makes it as simple as reloading an AR15.
Pat

Their site is a little slim on info. Can I make my SGM mags fit? What is involved in installation?

Another option would be LRBHO.

I'm looking at easiest and most cost effective way to facilitate rapid magazine changes.

kashdaddy
10-21-2011, 07:52
Saigas are crap. They just look cool and offer a high capacity. If you want a real 12ga then look into Benelli...........I would select a Mossberg, Remington or Winchester over a saiga.

LEAD
10-21-2011, 08:42
Saigas are crap. They just look cool and offer a high capacity. If you want a real 12ga then look into Benelli...........I would select a Mossberg, Remington or Winchester over a saiga.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 12:51
Saigas are crap. They just look cool and offer a high capacity. If you want a real 12ga then look into Benelli...........I would select a Mossberg, Remington or Winchester over a saiga.

I own a Benelli M2 and have owned a M4 both are great guns. But the Saiga offers high capacity and fast reloads both of which should not be dismissed lightly. The Saiga and other detachable magazine fed shotguns are the future. In its stock form the Saiga is not much fun but when its customized there is nothing better.

Pat

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 12:53
Their site is a little slim on info. Can I make my SGM mags fit? What is involved in installation?

Another option would be LRBHO.

I'm looking at easiest and most cost effective way to facilitate rapid magazine changes.

Robert modifies the mags to work with is mag well. Its the best system going for fast magazine changes.

kashdaddy
10-21-2011, 16:48
To each is their own..........true the saiga offer fast reloads and high capacity, but I have never had any problems in those two departments with any other shotgun. For hunting, the capacity is no added benefit. For home defense, most gun fights will not even last past 8 rounds of "00" bucks, which many (proven top brand) shotguns are capable of doing. I do own a saiga and its not comfortable carrying 20 rounds of "00" buck, Surefire flashlight, trijicon reflex RX30, laser, rail mount, etc.......maybe the weight is not much for 2 seconds, but trying holding it for five minutes.
I dont see the SWATs or Special Ops teams using saiga.
You only need a large capacity and fast reloads if you plan to miss a lot of your shots.
8 shots of 12 pellet is almost 100 pieces of lead.........what more can you ask for. If you cant disable your target with that amount of shots then you dont need a shotgun, you need a good pair of running shoes.

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 17:11
To each is their own..........true the saiga offer fast reloads and high capacity, but I have never had any problems in those two departments with any other shotgun. For hunting, the capacity is no added benefit. For home defense, most gun fights will not even last past 8 rounds of "00" bucks, which many (proven top brand) shotguns are capable of doing. I do own a saiga and its not comfortable carrying 20 rounds of "00" buck, Surefire flashlight, trijicon reflex RX30, laser, rail mount, etc.......maybe the weight is not much for 2 seconds, but trying holding it for five minutes.
I dont see the SWATs or Special Ops teams using saiga.
You only need a large capacity and fast reloads if you plan to miss a lot of your shots.
8 shots of 12 pellet is almost 100 pieces of lead.........what more can you ask for. If you cant disable your target with that amount of shots then you dont need a shotgun, you need a good pair of running shoes.

1. There is no such thing as an average gun fight. 8 rounds of 00 buck may well not be enough. Other times just showing the gun is enough. That being said having more ammo is always a good thing. In real life people do miss and sometimes you are out numbered. You can't simply just dismiss such a huge tactical advantage of higher capacity and faster reloads.

2. The Saiga is not that heavy of a gun I run with one during long field courses in three gun matches. If its too much for you its time to hit the gym.

3. Most SWAT units and Special ops use shotguns for breaching and use carbines for fighting. I prefer a good 5.56 carbine myself. So thats not a valid argument. If I only had to worry about close range threats on an entry my Saiga would be my gun of choice.

I am not saying there are not other valid and good choices in shotguns but to dismiss the Saiga as junk is a bit ignorant. Right now custom Saiga's like mine are starting to dominate Open Division in three gun matches.
pat

kashdaddy
10-21-2011, 17:55
1. This is not a movie we are talking about, read the stats on gunfights and you will see the average gunfight times. Most gunfight ends in less than 30 seconds and most time one does not even get to reload. I can clearly tell you have not see or encounter real gunfights. Sure, you are listing the worse and best scenario by saying other time "showing the gun is enough", but one should not even show the gun unless its ready to be used. Unless you are referring to the bank robbery with the three or four Romanian guys where they had on armor plated equipment with AK47 and outgun the police for hours then even in such situation then i dont think the saiga would have made a difference. If i do remember correctly, its a simple .45 cal out of a 1911 with one well placed shot that finished the job. It wasnt 20 shots! We can go on and on and list every single possibility, but this would get childish. More ammo is useless, shot placement is more important. The way you talk is like you just "spray and pray" and work the number game and not a good shot where you can place your shot where you want it.

2. Lets do the math: Naked gun = 9 lbs, 20 rounds of 12GA buckshots = 40 oz, scope = 10 oz, tri-mount = 4 oz, laser = 3 oz, flashlight = 5 oz........we have a total of 13 lbs. Try holding up a 15 lbs dumbell in a side lateral position for 2 minutes. Try holding up your weapon on target for two minutes. We are not talking running thru the jungle with a sling and shooting paper target, we are talking carrying in a position where speed and accuracy counts in a defense situation. FYI: I am very athletic and can do 33 pullups, 117 dips and can bench press 225% of my body-weight.

3. I have seen SWAT use shotgun for fighting many time and AR15. All SAWT members dont carry the same weapon on fighting, its always a variety and many time you will see at least two members with a real shotgun (not a saiga). However, you are missing the point, we are not talking about when SWAT or special ops use shotguns, we are talking about them using a saiga or not.........since you say the saiga is the best shotgun and they have a tendency to select the best.

Lets face it, you are trying to justify your saiga, since you own one. Unless you have shot all the popular shotgun and have dumped over 500 rounds out of each then you can analyze properly........I have and I can speak facts.
The saiga is nothing more than a hi-point in comparison to handguns.
Like I said, to each is their own, I prefer the Benelli and you prefer the saiga. The Benelli has a proven reputation and is less likely to jam......I can tell you that.

1. There is no such thing as an average gun fight. 8 rounds of 00 buck may well not be enough. Other times just showing the gun is enough. That being said having more ammo is always a good thing. In real life people do miss and sometimes you are out numbered. You can't simply just dismiss such a huge tactical advantage of higher capacity and faster reloads.

2. The Saiga is not that heavy of a gun I run with one during long field courses in three gun matches. If its too much for you its time to hit the gym.

3. Most SWAT units and Special ops use shotguns for breaching and use carbines for fighting. I prefer a good 5.56 carbine myself. So thats not a valid argument. If I only had to worry about close range threats on an entry my Saiga would be my gun of choice.

I am not saying there are not other valid and good choices in shotguns but to dismiss the Saiga as junk is a bit ignorant. Right now custom Saiga's like mine are starting to dominate Open Division in three gun matches.
pat

kashdaddy
10-21-2011, 18:04
Here is a comparison for ya:

SHOTGUN - Benelli, mossberg, remington, winchester is to saiga is like..........
HANDGUN - 1911, Glock, Sig, Kimber is to hi-point, tek-9, mac-10, pheonix arms, jennings

WoodenPlank
10-21-2011, 18:14
Kashdaddy, you are looking at the average/"normal" defensive gunfight. Just because the average is less than one magazine, under 30 seconds, and inside 7 yards doesn't mean the gunfight YOU end up in will fall into the average.

Remember the rules of gunfighting. It's much better to be ready and capable of fast reloads, and having plenty of ammunition at your disposal whenever possible. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

A Saiga, once set up correctly, is one HELL of a home defense weapon, and needs no justification. Rapid follow up shots, plenty of ammo capacity, powerful, and reliable - everything you want and need in a home defense weapon.

Edit to add: Is your hate for the platform due to its origin? Considering reliability is probably the #1 asset in a defensive weapon, I would say the AK heritage of the Saiga is a major asset.

Edit AGAIN: Oh, and a Benelli is less likely to jam than a Saiga? Funny, since every single Benelli I have fired (two M2s and an M4) have been utter jam-o-matics. Every saiga I have handled ran just fine once broken in, and with the gas port set correctly.

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 18:50
1. This is not a movie we are talking about, read the stats on gunfights and you will see the average gunfight times. Most gunfight ends in less than 30 seconds and most time one does not even get to reload. I can clearly tell you have not see or encounter real gunfights. Sure, you are listing the worse and best scenario by saying other time "showing the gun is enough", but one should not even show the gun unless its ready to be used. Unless you are referring to the bank robbery with the three or four Romanian guys where they had on armor plated equipment with AK47 and outgun the police for hours then even in such situation then i dont think the saiga would have made a difference. If i do remember correctly, its a simple .45 cal out of a 1911 with one well placed shot that finished the job. It wasnt 20 shots! We can go on and on and list every single possibility, but this would get childish. More ammo is useless, shot placement is more important. The way you talk is like you just "spray and pray" and work the number game and not a good shot where you can place your shot where you want it.

2. Lets do the math: Naked gun = 9 lbs, 20 rounds of 12GA buckshots = 40 oz, scope = 10 oz, tri-mount = 4 oz, laser = 3 oz, flashlight = 5 oz........we have a total of 13 lbs. Try holding up a 15 lbs dumbell in a side lateral position for 2 minutes. Try holding up your weapon on target for two minutes. We are not talking running thru the jungle with a sling and shooting paper target, we are talking carrying in a position where speed and accuracy counts in a defense situation. FYI: I am very athletic and can do 33 pullups, 117 dips and can bench press 225% of my body-weight.

3. I have seen SWAT use shotgun for fighting many time and AR15. All SAWT members dont carry the same weapon on fighting, its always a variety and many time you will see at least two members with a real shotgun (not a saiga). However, you are missing the point, we are not talking about when SWAT or special ops use shotguns, we are talking about them using a saiga or not.........since you say the saiga is the best shotgun and they have a tendency to select the best.

Lets face it, you are trying to justify your saiga, since you own one. Unless you have shot all the popular shotgun and have dumped over 500 rounds out of each then you can analyze properly........I have and I can speak facts.
The saiga is nothing more than a hi-point in comparison to handguns.
Like I said, to each is their own, I prefer the Benelli and you prefer the saiga. The Benelli has a proven reputation and is less likely to jam......I can tell you that.

1. I have used my Vang Comped 870 to save my own life twice from charging bears. I have also through numerous firearms trainings over the years see after action reports form actual shootings and videos from actual shootings. In real life shot placement is king but having more ammo is always a good things. There is no such thing as the average gun fight. Most gun fights according to stats happen inside 7 yards. But guess what I know a Trooper who shot a suspect who was shooting at him from 38 yards away. There is no such thing as average when it comes to a gun fight.
2. LA Bank robbery was not ended with a 1911 but rather one suspect shot himself and the other was killed by a SWAT member with an M4 carbine.
3. The Saiga weighs just under 8 pounds empty not 9. I use a Leupold Delta Point which with the mount is under 4 ounces. My gun is not that hard to move around. Also in three gun you are not using a sling the majority of the time and physically its more demanding than the average gun call you will face on the street.
4. I am not trying to justify my Saiga. I own lots of shotguns. 1 Vang comped 870 (14 inch NFA gun) 1 20 inch 870, 1 Benelli M2, 1 Ugartechea double. I also sold my Benelli M4. I have put thousands of shotgun rounds through these guns, so yes I can analyze them all properly. I am also a firearms instructor who has taught hundreds of classes on pistols, rifles and shotguns over the last 9 years now.

Lastly read my signature I do know a thing or two about what SWAT teams across the country are using. Most are using short barreled ARís or 9mm subguns. Shotguns are used almost exclusively for breaching duty only. Very few teams use shotguns as a main fighting weapon.

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 18:52
Kashdaddy, you are looking at the average/"normal" defensive gunfight. Just because the average is less than one magazine, under 30 seconds, and inside 7 yards doesn't mean the gunfight YOU end up in will fall into the average.

Remember the rules of gunfighting. It's much better to be ready and capable of fast reloads, and having plenty of ammunition at your disposal whenever possible. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

A Saiga, once set up correctly, is one HELL of a home defense weapon, and needs no justification. Rapid follow up shots, plenty of ammo capacity, powerful, and reliable - everything you want and need in a home defense weapon.

Edit to add: Is your hate for the platform due to its origin? Considering reliability is probably the #1 asset in a defensive weapon, I would say the AK heritage of the Saiga is a major asset.

Edit AGAIN: Oh, and a Benelli is less likely to jam than a Saiga? Funny, since every single Benelli I have fired (two M2s and an M4) have been utter jam-o-matics. Every saiga I have handled ran just fine once broken in, and with the gas port set correctly.

I will say that the Benelli's I own or have owned have been reliable. They just need 3 dram ammo to run. No light stuff. Saiga's are a bit more finicky on the shell itself. I have found that Winchester AA hulls and Remington's yellow hull ammo is the most rigid and feeds the best in the box magazines.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 18:53
Here is a comparison for ya:

SHOTGUN - Benelli, mossberg, remington, winchester is to saiga is like..........
HANDGUN - 1911, Glock, Sig, Kimber is to hi-point, tek-9, mac-10, pheonix arms, jennings

Hmm my R&R Saiga cost me $3200 when I was done and I have used it to beat guys running Benelli, Remington and FN's in matches. Sorry but your posts show a huge lack of education on the subject.
Pat

WoodenPlank
10-21-2011, 19:00
2. LA Bank robbery was not ended with a 1911 but rather one suspect shot himself and the other was killed by a SWAT member with an M4 carbine.


I could swear that the SWAT officers that dropped the second shooter were all packing MP5s, but Wikipedia agreed with you.

I will say that the Benelli's I own or have owned have been reliable. They just need 3 dram ammo to run. No light stuff. Saiga's are a bit more finicky on the shell itself. I have found that Winchester AA hulls and Remington's yellow hull ammo is the most rigid and feeds the best in the box magazines.
Pat

The three I have shot even had issues with full power 2 3/4 00 loads. I'll gladly stick to pump guns. If I had to have a semi, though, I'd go for a professionally converted S12.

conch27
10-21-2011, 21:15
I am pretty new to the saiga world and can tell everyone they are far from crap. Just go to any 3 gun match and learn for your self. They are such an advantage at times that they are coming up with anti saiga stages to try and limit there clear advantage.
I do not care about its ability to win a gun fight or to compare it to another company's offering. It is clearly the top competition shotgun on the market currently. They are fun, highly customizable for just about any use you can come up with.

R&R is a great place that will have my saiga soon enough for an open conversion.

Good luck and enjoy.

Alaskapopo
10-21-2011, 21:36
I am pretty new to the saiga world and can tell everyone they are far from crap. Just go to any 3 gun match and learn for your self. They are such an advantage at times that they are coming up with anti saiga stages to try and limit there clear advantage.
I do not care about its ability to win a gun fight or to compare it to another company's offering. It is clearly the top competition shotgun on the market currently. They are fun, highly customizable for just about any use you can come up with.

R&R is a great place that will have my saiga soon enough for an open conversion.

Good luck and enjoy.

I have a stock Saiga as well that I plan to send to R&R for the Enforcer package. I may start using it as a patrol shotgun.
Pat

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 04:33
kashdaddy, you are looking at the average/"normal" defensive gunfight. Just because the average is less than one magazine, under 30 seconds, and inside 7 yards doesn't mean the gunfight you end up in will fall into the average.
this is what i said we cant cover every scenario.

remember the rules of gunfighting. It's much better to be ready and capable of fast reloads, and having plenty of ammunition at your disposal whenever possible. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
do you conceal carry, if so, why dont you carry 10 mags around your waist since plenty of ammo is number one?

a saiga, once set up correctly, is one hell of a home defense weapon, and needs no justification. Rapid follow up shots, plenty of ammo capacity, powerful, and reliable - everything you want and need in a home defense weapon.
any weapon can be a home defense weapon, once checked properly for reliability.

edit to add: Is your hate for the platform due to its origin? Considering reliability is probably the #1 asset in a defensive weapon, i would say the ak heritage of the saiga is a major asset.
origin has nothing to do with it. It has not been out on the market long enough as the other top brands and cant compare. You cant compare the reliability of a saiga to an ak, just because they resemble each other and came from the same origin. An ak round is designed differently and is more of a bottle neck where it offers many advantage for feed-ramp type weapon unlike a 12ga that is flat at the tip, so very bad comparison.

edit again: Oh, and a benelli is less likely to jam than a saiga? Funny, since every single benelli i have fired (two m2s and an m4) have been utter jam-o-matics. Every saiga i have handled ran just fine once broken in, and with the gas port set correctly.
not in my experience. Every weapon likes its own ammo and i have found the mossberg to eat everything like the glock pistol, next up is the benelli and remington that came in 2nd and 3rd. Maybe the benelli you shot had problems..........lots of factor can cause this, gun not clean, weak spring, etc.


see comment in red!

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 05:02
1. I have used my Vang Comped 870 to save my own life twice from charging bears. I have also through numerous firearms trainings over the years see after action reports form actual shootings and videos from actual shootings. In real life shot placement is king but having more ammo is always a good things. There is no such thing as the average gun fight. Most gun fights according to stats happen inside 7 yards. But guess what I know a Trooper who shot a suspect who was shooting at him from 38 yards away. There is no such thing as average when it comes to a gun fight.
Like I said, we can look at worse case and best case all day long. A man can save his life from 2 yards and a man can save his life from 38 yards, but then they are stats that say 99 out of 100 save their life from within 7 yards. Defending from bears is not the same as facing live fire and having to defend your life. I can speak, i have been there twice and not once been thru a reload..........matter of fact, sometimes you dont feel like reloading.........you dont even remember where your mag catch is. There is something as average, add up all your given stats and divide by the total number. I think you are mistaken average from best and worse. Just like how you know most gunfights are within 7 yards then you can know most end in 30 sec, most dont involve reloads.

2. LA Bank robbery was not ended with a 1911 but rather one suspect shot himself and the other was killed by a SWAT member with an M4 carbine.
I saw this and if I do remember correctly, a swat member with a 1911 came around a building and took one shot at the last robber's head and dropped him. Yea, I have seen some re-acted version where they used the M4 and did some things differently, but the live footage was ended with a 1911. There is no way the M4 could have done much to the armor equipment of the BG. Some of them did get shot on the leg and wounded, but I am talking about what ended it.

3. The Saiga weighs just under 8 pounds empty not 9. I use a Leupold Delta Point which with the mount is under 4 ounces. My gun is not that hard to move around. Also in three gun you are not using a sling the majority of the time and physically its more demanding than the average gun call you will face on the street.
No need to argue about one pound, because any custom work will more and likely add weight and all prefer their weapon modified. I use a trijicon reflex RX30, so again preference can add more weight. Yea, some of the training is more demanding than the gun call on the street as you stated, but when in a tense gunfight, performance degrades to the point where the gun call on the street demands more than the hardest obstacle course. In the same retrospect as what you said, a average gun call on the street demand less ammo than a obstacle course.

4. I am not trying to justify my Saiga. I own lots of shotguns. 1 Vang comped 870 (14 inch NFA gun) 1 20 inch 870, 1 Benelli M2, 1 Ugartechea double. I also sold my Benelli M4. I have put thousands of shotgun rounds through these guns, so yes I can analyze them all properly. I am also a firearms instructor who has taught hundreds of classes on pistols, rifles and shotguns over the last 9 years now.
You say that here, but you dont speak like it. A saiga is the hottest thing in shotgun, WHY, because its the newest shotgun that one can toy with. I am also certified by the NRA as a firearm instructor in pistol, shotgun, rifle, reloading and glock armor, glock instructor workshop, use of deadly force and numerous firearm training courses. I place top three in my class in every GSSF match that I entered and numerous state and local titles in the sport of shooting. This is since 1997 (I am under 40 years old) that I have been around the competitive scene and have laid off a bit because of family and business, but i still stay active. I even invested a few modifications for firearm. I was a member of a special opt team, shot 1000 rounds a week, been thru all kinds of rigorous training - physically and weapon. All in all, this is not a pissing contest, but just so you know is not some wannabe speaking.

Lastly read my signature I do know a thing or two about what SWAT teams across the country are using. Most are using short barreled ARís or 9mm subguns. Shotguns are used almost exclusively for breaching duty only. Very few teams use shotguns as a main fighting weapon.
Again, this depends on the situation. I have seen many entry by SWAT and the man upfront generally have a mossberg or benelli. Most of the time, SWAT has a balance of weapon - MP5, M4, Shotgun, Sniper Rifle along with their sidearm. I disagree that they only use shotgun for breaching duty.


Comment are in RED!

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 05:08
I am pretty new to the saiga world and can tell everyone they are far from crap.
Good luck and enjoy.
If you are new to the saiga world then you dont have the experience to make such statement. List some facts where you think the saiga can beat a benelli........compare extractor, gas port, ejector, chamber, material, stocks, mechanism and then you can talk.

Three gun match are not a good way to judge a weapon. Realize, this is a competition - capacity and mag changes have a lot of weight here. In a defense situation, shot placement and reliability has way more weight than mag changes or capacity.
Look at the GSSF matches, the glocks are sooped up to the max, but does that mean people carry them around in that condition for defense - NO.

LEAD
10-22-2011, 06:32
Kashdaddy, I don't know whose Saiga you got ahold of that was unreliable, but when they are set up correctly, they are extremely reliable. These shotguns are often set-up as full auto weapons; I've seen a full auto shoot hundreds of rounds without a hitch. Actually the Saiga is very much like the AK, slight differences had to be made to account for the change from the bottlenecked metal cased ammo to the straight walled soft cased shotgun ammunition.

You suggesting Saiga shotguns are the circle of fire of the shotgun world is laughable, they can handle some of the hottest 12ga ammo out there and actually thrive on the heavier hotter loadings, this very much in contrast to your comparison.

Alaskapopo
10-22-2011, 06:49
Kashdaddy you're wrong on so many counts. The patrol officer was using a Beretta 92 and a M4 firing any 5.56 ammo will sail right through the body armor those guys were wearing. That incident is what is largely responsible for most cops in this country now having access to patrol rifles. It takes hard plates to stop a 5.56 round.

As to gun fights you don't go by the averages you prepare for the worst. You seem to think everything wil fall in line with the average it does not in real life.

Thats great that you shoot GSSF its a bit easy compared to IDPA, USPSA and Three gun (all of which I compete in) but its a start.

As for SWAT teams you are talking like you are clueless. The guys up front use the same weapons as everyone else in the stack. The only exception is the breacher with a shotgun who steps to the side while the guys with rifles enter. I have done my share of entries?
As for auto shotguns the Mossbergs are not amoung the best. The best in that area of standard tube guns are Benelli and the FN SLP.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-22-2011, 06:59
If you are new to the saiga world then you dont have the experience to make such statement. List some facts where you think the saiga can beat a benelli........compare extractor, gas port, ejector, chamber, material, stocks, mechanism and then you can talk.

Three gun match are not a good way to judge a weapon. Realize, this is a competition - capacity and mag changes have a lot of weight here. In a defense situation, shot placement and reliability has way more weight than mag changes or capacity.
Look at the GSSF matches, the glocks are sooped up to the max, but does that mean people carry them around in that condition for defense - NO.

Actually competition is where new ideas are tested and vetted. For example optics on rifles started in competition well before soldiers or cops tried it. The use of low power variable scopes on AR's started with three gun and was then grabbed by our special forces and became the S&B short Dot. Look at optics on pistols it started in competition and guess what some tactical units are starting to use. Yep small red dots on their Glocks like the Trijicon RMR.

In competition shot placement quickly is what wins same thing as in a gun fight. You don't win by missing. I am not saying competition is the same, but the skills you develop in competiion are very valuable in the real world. (shooting fast and accurate)

In the real world it all matters, reliablity, accuracy, capacity, quick reloads everything. Use what you feel comfortable with. But to dismiss the Saiga and its advantages as meaningless is pure ignorance.
Pat

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 07:42
obviously, you think the saiga is the best shotgun, based on capacity and fast reloads............I am telling you, its not and list the benelli as the best for all round shotgun work when it comes to home defense.

You keep mentioning WHEN SWAT used a shotgun, personally I dont even care if they use it in the toilet. What I am saying in regards to this is, WHEN thy use it, they choose to use one that is NOT a saiga.

You plan for the worse and carry around 10 mags around your waist if you like. If the more ammo makes you feel more comfortable then more power to you, but for me and many others its the placement that counts and we dont need 30 rounds to take out one or two or even three bad guys.

FYI: I have competed in IDPA and USPSA as well, but like I said this is not a pissing contest. I dont brag on my training and what i have, if it satisfy your ego then do your thing. I gave up competition, I have better things to do as far as with my timing now and I just shoot to stay active. Even though i dont compete then I still shoot at least 12,000 rounds per year. Also, I can score a 92 or above from 25 yards with a handgun and that is my personal carry G19.

WoodenPlank
10-22-2011, 07:52
obviously, you think the saiga is the best shotgun, based on capacity and fast reloads............I am telling you, its not and list the benelli as the best for all round shotgun work when it comes to home defense.

You keep mentioning WHEN SWAT used a shotgun, personally I dont even care if they use it in the toilet. What I am saying in regards to this is, WHEN thy use it, they choose to use one that is NOT a saiga.

You plan for the worse and carry around 10 mags around your waist if you like. If the more ammo makes you feel more comfortable then more power to you, but for me and many others its the placement that counts and we dont need 30 rounds to take out one or two or even three bad guys.

FYI: I have competed in IDPA and USPSA as well, but like I said this is not a pissing contest. I dont brag on my training and what i have, if it satisfy your ego then do your thing. I gave up competition, I have better things to do as far as with my timing now and I just shoot to stay active. Even though i dont compete then I still shoot at least 12,000 rounds per year. Also, I can score a 92 or above from 25 yards with a handgun and that is my personal carry G19.

You are either insanely pig-headed, or trolling. I'm not sure which. Just because you have an opinion, does not mean it's indisputable fact, and that anyone that feels differently is an idiot. It means you're just another ******* with an opinion, same as everyone else.

The saiga is a solid, reliable platform when it is treated and set up correctly - same as every other semi-auto shotgun on the market. It has advantages, as well as disadvantages - same as every other gun on the market.

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 07:58
you sound arrogant and pissed...........I would be too if I spent $3000 on a piece of crap. comparing a saiga to a benelli is like comparing a bus to a Rolls Royce.........sure the bus has a larger capacity. Face it, you overpaid for a bus and now you are pissed.

You are either insanely pig-headed, or trolling. I'm not sure which. Just because you have an opinion, does not mean it's indisputable fact, and that anyone that feels differently is an idiot. It means you're just another ******* with an opinion, same as everyone else.

The saiga is a solid, reliable platform when it is treated and set up correctly - same as every other semi-auto shotgun on the market. It has advantages, as well as disadvantages - same as every other gun on the market.

WoodenPlank
10-22-2011, 08:02
you sound arrogant and pissed...........I would be too if I spent $3000 on a piece of crap. comparing a saiga to a benelli is like comparing a bus to a Rolls Royce.........sure the bus has a larger capacity. Face it, you overpaid for a bus and now you are pissed.

:rofl:

First, I don't own a Saiga. I have shot several, and I see their benefits. Personally, I'll stick to a quality pump gun.

Second, you do realize that you can build a very nice Saiga for under a thousand bucks, right? It's like AR15s - you can spend 3k if you want, but you can get a quality, durable, reliable weapon for much cheaper.

Finally, the only thing that I get pissed off about are internet commandos that think that their opinion is the only thing that's worthwhile, and anyone that disagrees is an idiot.

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 08:14
:rofl:

First, I don't own a Saiga. I have shot several, and I see their benefits. Personally, I'll stick to a quality pump gun.
So, you are running your mouth about something that you dont even know anything about. You barely got to squeeze off a few rounds off someone else saiga and now you can talk like and expert.......considering its even true that you even got to touch one. If you are talking about it, like its the best then how come you dont own one? Do you even own a benelli? Have you ever shot a benelli?

Second, you do realize that you can build a very nice Saiga for under a thousand bucks, right? It's like AR15s - you can spend 3k if you want, but you can get a quality, durable, reliable weapon for much cheaper.
How does this relate to what we are talking about, again? I am not debating price. If I spend $3K then I would prefer something fully auto.

Finally, the only thing that I get pissed off about are internet commandos that think that their opinion is the only thing that's worthwhile, and anyone that disagrees is an idiot.
How did you arrived to this conclusion, again? So, let me guess, your opinion should be the only one? Well guess what, its a free country so get used to hearing opinions and respecting. Who said you were and idiot? I cant help it if you feel like one! I think you should stick to your wooden planks!


See response in red!

WoodenPlank
10-22-2011, 08:23
See response in red!

:rofl:

I never said that you were an idiot for your opinion, I said youre an idiot for thinking your opinion is the only one worthwhile, and continuing to behave like an ass. You are doing a great job of proving my point. Thank you.

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 08:28
:rofl:

I never said that you were an idiot for your opinion, I said youre an idiot for thinking your opinion is the only one worthwhile, and continuing to behave like an ass. You are doing a great job of proving my point. Thank you.

Wow, you are a mind reader now................how did you know I was thinking my opinion is the only one worthwhile?
So, let me guess, someone behaves like an ass if they respond to a post? Is that how you view it? If someone says saiga is crap then they are an ass. Nice way to analyze.........that is generally referred to as ignorant.

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 08:31
I think this thread is getting way out of control and need to be closed!

WoodenPlank
10-22-2011, 08:44
Edit to add: I apologize now for the wall of text in this post. I did a lot of snipping to try to keep it under control, but this is still going to be a large post due to all the quoting.



Wow, you are a mind reader now................how did you know I was thinking my opinion is the only one worthwhile?
So, let me guess, someone behaves like an ass if they respond to a post? Is that how you view it? If someone says saiga is crap then they are an ass. Nice way to analyze.........that is generally referred to as ignorant.

Oh? Let's look at some of your posts in this thread. I will snip some of them due to length, simply to avoid the wall of text that would result otherwise...


FYI: I am very athletic and can do 33 pullups, 117 dips and can bench press 225% of my body-weight.

Lets face it, you are trying to justify your saiga, since you own one. Unless you have shot all the popular shotgun and have dumped over 500 rounds out of each then you can analyze properly........I have and I can speak facts.
The saiga is nothing more than a hi-point in comparison to handguns.
Like I said, to each is their own, I prefer the Benelli and you prefer the saiga. The Benelli has a proven reputation and is less likely to jam......I can tell you that.

This is where your posts start going downhill. Again, I cut out a lot of this post, mainly to cut down on the wall of text effect.

Here is a comparison for ya:

SHOTGUN - Benelli, mossberg, remington, winchester is to saiga is like..........
HANDGUN - 1911, Glock, Sig, Kimber is to hi-point, tek-9, mac-10, pheonix arms, jennings

Again, stating your OPINION as though it was undisputed, scientific fact.


see comment in red!


See response in red!

You seem to do this a lot, making it very difficult for people to quote you in replies. You have made several baseless, inflammatory, and asinine comments in this fashion.

If you are new to the saiga world then you dont have the experience to make such statement.

Again with the "I'm smarter and better than you, your opinion is worthless" attitude. Even if someone has limited experience on a platform, their experience still has weight and meaning, and can provide a chance for critique or for someone else to learn from.

obviously, you think the saiga is the best shotgun, based on capacity and fast reloads............I am telling you, its not and list the benelli as the best for all round shotgun work when it comes to home defense.

Again, stating opinion as thought it was fact.

You keep mentioning WHEN SWAT used a shotgun, personally I dont even care if they use it in the toilet. What I am saying in regards to this is, WHEN thy use it, they choose to use one that is NOT a saiga.

Again, what someone else says, chooses, or uses is worthless because you know better, right?

You plan for the worse and carry around 10 mags around your waist if you like. If the more ammo makes you feel more comfortable then more power to you, but for me and many others its the placement that counts and we dont need 30 rounds to take out one or two or even three bad guys.

You were the only one to mention carrying 10 mags on their belt, nobody else.

FYI: I have competed in IDPA and USPSA as well, but like I said this is not a pissing contest. I dont brag on my training and what i have, if it satisfy your ego then do your thing. I gave up competition, I have better things to do as far as with my timing now and I just shoot to stay active. Even though i dont compete then I still shoot at least 12,000 rounds per year. Also, I can score a 92 or above from 25 yards with a handgun and that is my personal carry G19.

You sure have done your best to turn it into one...

you sound arrogant and pissed...........I would be too if I spent $3000 on a piece of crap. comparing a saiga to a benelli is like comparing a bus to a Rolls Royce.........sure the bus has a larger capacity. Face it, you overpaid for a bus and now you are pissed.

Back to stating your opinion as fact, etc...

I think this thread is getting way out of control and need to be closed!

Finally, something we can both agree on.

Glock 1
10-22-2011, 09:25
This is indeed a pissing contest and you appear to be the one losing as none seems to share your opinion. However, I am powerless to look away.

Oh, I don't own any of these guns so I am learning as well. Please continue. :)

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 10:34
I am missing your point.............Everyone is free to post and offer opinion and advise. you dont have to take the advise and you are free to share yours as well. Now you go off telling me your perception of my opinion, which is way off the topic(ex: I am an ass for you THINKING everyone's opinion is worthless). Of course, i am the minority (or black guy) in this thread, because its a saiga thread, duh! I still stand by my own, saiga is crap and i own one. hi-point is crap too and i own one. I own just about one of everything.

kashdaddy
10-22-2011, 11:26
You were the only one to mention carrying 10 mags on their belt, nobody else.

Well, you said u prefer more ammo and fast reload, so it would make sense to carry ten mags on your belt.

Angry Fist
10-22-2011, 11:38
I wish I had an ACE stock and different grip. Quad rail, forward grip, and barrel shroud are next, along with a few more mags.


http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz13/MO_FUGGAZ/100_3811.jpg


http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz13/MO_FUGGAZ/100_3749.jpg

WoodenPlank
10-22-2011, 11:46
Well, you said u prefer more ammo and fast reload, so it would make sense to carry ten mags on your belt.

Talk about jumping to conclusions... :rofl: