SHTF availability: 30-06 or .308? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Aceman
09-25-2011, 10:37
I was wondering....in a SHTF situation (let's ignore the definition for purposes of discussion) - which round is currently more available?

On the one hand, 30-06: The great American hunting round. Been with us a long long time. Lot's of hunters out there who if they have one bolt rifle, might have this as the caliber.

On the other hand, .308: The military round du jour in 7.62x51. Also with us for quite a while, and also a respectable and common round these days.

But in reality, is it still mostly a military/LEO round, with some civilian use? Or has it overwhelmed the 30-06, which has nearly 100 years of market existence?

For purposes of discussion, let's ignore the LEO/MIL use; My general consideration is that in SHTF those rounds are generally UNAVAILABLE - because they are in the possession of LEO/MIL. Feel free to add as a caveat if you want...

SO my real question: In civilian circles - which would be more available in a forage for ammo situation? (Add "If LEO considered...if you want - but keep it separate.)

Broncbuster
09-25-2011, 10:40
I would venture to say either. IMHO if you had 500 to 750rnd of either you should be GTG. I have a Win M70 in 30.06 with about 500rnds for large game and some long distance threats. Anything else would be handled with a AR or a AK.

jellis11
09-25-2011, 10:43
I have a few hundo 30.06. I want more, because it's my favorite round ever, so that I can feel like I have enough. (although that doesn't seem to ever happen) IMO it would be the .06 for your question.

Dexters
09-25-2011, 10:58
For purposes of discussion, let's ignore the LEO/MIL use; My general consideration is that in SHTF those rounds are generally UNAVAILABLE - because they are in the possession of LEO/MIL. Feel free to add as a caveat if you want...

SO my real question: In civilian circles - which would be more available in a forage for ammo situation? (Add "If LEO considered...if you want - but keep it separate.)

The 308 will be available through the black market as the LEO/Military sell it to raise cash for themselves.

G29Reload
09-25-2011, 11:18
During the ammo crisis a couple of years back, surveying the empty shelves at WM the only thing worthwhile left on the shelf was .06.

In a REAL SHTF...you've missed the mark entirely if you're thinking of turning the occasion into a bargain hunting opportunity.

By then, its too late.

The topic here is PREPAREDNESS. NOT "Just in time" inventory management.

Get it now. EVERYTHING now...is real cheap. Compared with having to acquire anything "after".

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 11:33
To answer your question....

.308 Winchester (basically 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm)

UtahIrishman
09-25-2011, 11:35
I'm thinking you might want both.

I originally settled on the .308 platform because I figured it would always be available at a decent price. Boy was I wrong.

Like your financial portfolio I think diversification is the best way to go. Also buying ahead of time.

My primary platform is still .308 but I also have an 8 mm Mauser for fun and also to diversify in case of shortages.

G29Reload
09-25-2011, 11:45
To answer your question....

.308 Winchester (basically 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm)


Nope. More popular due to the market for semi autos that handle it and that also drives volume sales. More likely to get wiped out when the shelves are low.

30.06 doesnt have much of a volume market...popular sure, for hunters with single shot (non-detachable mag-fed) unless you have a BAR....

Garands and repros are sure out there, but having a box magazine makes .308 the volume round.

You need SOME 30.06
You need LOTS of .308.

IE, you don't thumb 3 or 8 rounds or whatever in your 20rd mag for a FnFal or M1A. If its SHTF time, you pack all 20 in there and several backup mags.

The volume demand will definitely hit .308 first and wipe that out before Old Soldier.

Aceman
09-25-2011, 11:48
The topic here is PREPAREDNESS. NOT "Just in time" inventory management.

Get it now. EVERYTHING now...is real cheap. Compared with having to acquire anything "after".

Thus, I am asking this NOW. Honestly, I feel little/zero need for a .308 weapon. But if I were getting something in this realm. Which one...

And Just in Time preparedness - interesting concept. Probably should be discussed!

To answer your question....

.308 Winchester (basically 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm)

Basically noted...

I'm thinking you might want both.

I originally settled on the .308 platform because I figured it would always be available at a decent price. Boy was I wrong.

Like your financial portfolio I think diversification is the best way to go. Also buying ahead of time.

My primary platform is still .308 but I also have an 8 mm Mauser for fun and also to diversify in case of shortages.

Well, before you diversify, you need to start somewhere! I feel between 9mm, .45, 7.62x39, .22 and 12g I have a pretty good range of common, yet diverse calibers available. .223 and 30 something would help, as well as .357/38, and 30-30....

But overall, feeling ok.

G29Reload
09-25-2011, 12:01
Honestly, I feel little/zero need for a .308 weapon
.

Well if you're not expecting heavy targets or serious distance and have at least an M4 and a minimum 1k rounds on hand on a bad day, well maybe.

You need at least one good mag fed battle grade weapon and backup.



And Just in Time preparedness - interesting concept. Probably should be discussed!
.

Um, no. Oxymoron. Just in time means failure to plan and prepare with no margin for error. The opposite of what we talk about here.

Don't see how close you can get to the cliff without falling off.

See how far away from the cliff you can stay.

AK_Stick
09-25-2011, 12:23
There is far more 223/5.56 and 7.62/308 in this country than any other center fire rifle calibers.

30-06 is a very popular hunting gun, but thats it. It doesn't get used as a mainstream anything else anymore.

Match shooters, fun shooters, hunters, just about ever LE agency, all of the .gov agencies, the .mil etc have 7.62 or 308, and that means that in supply warehouses across the country, there is tons of that in various stages of shipment, or stockpile. In addition there is also a heck of alot of released to civilan market over-runs and surplus.

G29Reload
09-25-2011, 12:33
There is far more 223/5.56 and 7.62/308 in this country than any other center fire rifle calibers.

Theres a reason for that. Its' more used. And therein lies the balance.

Most popular
Most used.

Most likely to be demanded, used, stockpiled and wiped out when the surge comes.

.06, not so much. A lot more slack in the line.

Again, during the last ammo crisis....308 was off the shelves. And 06 one of the last things left on the shelves when all else was bare.

Saw it with my own eyes.

AK_Stick
09-25-2011, 12:46
I agree, but to a point, it depends where you're located.


In Phoenix AZ, I could probably find 5.56/7.62 before I found 30-06.

In Cantwell AK, I would find 06, long before I found 5.56/7.62.

There is certainly more of the NATO standard ammo running around, and thus I would venture if you were to look/scrounge you would be able to find more of it than anything else/be more likely to come across it and weapons chambered in it than anything else.


The obvious solution is to have the ability to field both.

Javelin
09-25-2011, 13:17
In a SHTF it is a BYOB party (bring your own bullets). I don't think I would be counting on finding or having to barter for any ammunition necessities. That's why I stock everything I think I need and keep it on hand.

:wavey:

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 15:06
Nope.

The volume demand will definitely hit .308 first and wipe that out before Old Soldier.



I gave the "short answer"...but not the logic driving the answer.

Since you gave me yours...here is mine!


If your idea of availability is going to the local Wal-Mart during a developing crisis..

..& getting the last few boxes of a less popular caliber...

.. then sure...you may be correct.


But my idea of availability during a crisis is what I have on hand..

(maybe 4 figures quantity of 30-06... mostly 7.62x53 M2 AP..IIRC...

..but 5 figures of .308/7.62 NATO)

..and those amounts stocked by close friends/family.


Most of the people I know with .30-06 firearms (with the exception of Garand & belt-feds)

..may have a box or 2 of .30-06

..those with .308 tend to stock cases.....not boxes.

Leading up to & including the crisis...I am more likely to first call a supplier & have cases on the way....transit time sometimes one day!

Just a guess...but I'd bet they stock 7.62 NATO vs. 30-06 at least 100 to 1.

Even now...I am more likely to order a few cases from a favorite distributer..

..than I am to go to a local store & buy a few boxes (.22 LR is the exception)


Then...if things get really gritty..

..consider the amounts of ammo in military/police/civilian stocks & supply chains.

I would not be surprised if there are several to many 10s of cases of .308/7.62 NATO...

..to every box of .30-06 somewhere in the country!

From the civilian M-14/M1A, HK-91 & G3, FN-FAL/L1A1,etc...

.. precision bolt actions to belt-feds..

(including mini-guns....remember the story of one guy that ordered his Israeli surplus by the tractor trailer load :shocked: )



..to LEO/Security Agencies precision weapons & semi-autos...


..to Military....there you have M-14, GPMG, SAW, mini-guns....you name it!


So while lots of 7.62x51mm goes downrange every day..

..much much more is waiting to!



YMMV

G29Reload
09-25-2011, 15:26
If your idea of availability is going to the local Wal-Mart during a developing crisis..

NO! It is however, a barometer of public sentiment, and activity. I do grab some plinking stuff there when able. historically, the cheapest prices on some stuff.

I tend to get my stuff of all stripes ahead of the crisis, hence, prepared!






But my idea of availability during a crisis is what I have on hand..

In which case, you are past the topic. You don't worry about availability, you are your own bottomless pit. A good place to be.

Chuck TX
09-25-2011, 15:28
I'd have to go with .308 win.

As far as use goes it takes the same amount of shots to go through a box of 30-06 as it does a box of .308 win.

I don't know many folks that have stockpiles of 30-06. As LG1 pointed it tends to be a caliber for folks that keep a box or two around and that's it. There are plenty that do have a good bit of .308 win due to the popularity and variety of platforms available. If the goal is to be able to trade for ammo (or find it at the end of a rainbow), there's going to be a lot more folks with excess .308 to barter with or that they may leave behind if they split in in a rush.

Of course, if you ain't got it, don't count on having it when you need it.

Aceman
09-25-2011, 15:29
Again - read my original post:

FORAGING for ammo. I am sure there is more 7.62 at MacDill airbase than there is all 30-06 for 100 miles around. NOT relevant. I'm would suspect production is 10-1. Now, take LEO/Mil OUT OF THE EQUATION.

I can't forage the local po-po. They will use the 7.62 ON ME!!!

The question is 100 years of hunting in America vs maybe 25 of civilian/Mil crossover of the caliber; Which is more randomly available. Production is not the question.

There is far more petroleum on earth than grain alcohol. Grain alcohol is easy to find.

Aceman
09-25-2011, 15:32
Um, no. Oxymoron. Just in time means failure to plan and prepare with no margin for error. The opposite of what we talk about here.

Don't see how close you can get to the cliff without falling off.

See how far away from the cliff you can stay.

What I mean is "How do you deal with prepping if you get in a just in time situation?"

Not saying JUst in time is a good prep approach. But if it becomes a needed approach, how does one go about it?

i.e.; You have not prepped for Nuclear fallout - but it clearly becomes imminent. How do you deal with that? Besides go to Walmart,,,,

Aceman
09-25-2011, 15:35
Theres a reason for that. Its' more used. And therein lies the balance.

Most popular
Most used.

Most likely to be demanded, used, stockpiled and wiped out when the surge comes.

.06, not so much. A lot more slack in the line.

Again, during the last ammo crisis....308 was off the shelves. And 06 one of the last things left on the shelves when all else was bare.

Saw it with my own eyes.

Exactly a key point of consideration! The hoarding tendencies vs the casual user. Same with bottled water. There is water in tea, soda, everything. But Bottled water gets devastated at a hint of trouble. Thus if I develop a need for bottled water, I'm gonna be hurting...

Aceman
09-25-2011, 15:40
There is far more 223/5.56 and 7.62/308 in this country than any other center fire rifle calibers.

30-06 is a very popular hunting gun, but thats it. It doesn't get used as a mainstream anything else anymore.

Match shooters, fun shooters, hunters, just about ever LE agency, all of the .gov agencies, the .mil etc have 7.62 or 308, and that means that in supply warehouses across the country, there is tons of that in various stages of shipment, or stockpile. In addition there is also a heck of alot of released to civilan market over-runs and surplus.

See - I don't know that I agree with that. I think 30-06 is a main stream hunting general round in a HUGE way. Most 'gun guys' wouldn't think of it because we don't own just one gun or just one caliber!

And again 5.56/7.62 is useless if the Rangers/Seals/Green Berets etc. are not handing it out or are not dead. That warehouse will be heavily guarded a day before the SHTF! Heck - even LEO/Mil/Gov may not be able to get into it...

So if ratio of 06 to 7.72 = 10:1, BUT 95% of it is not available to ME, so only .5 of that equation, or .5 7.62 to 1 06 means...

06 availability = 2:1

See what I mean?

And LG1 - Noted; can only rely on what I have. I'm asking about if/when I run out of that - what's more likely to be available.

Although personally, I think i could use yours. There is no way you can have it all inventoried, or even be able to see over the piles you have to see me snag a case, or even a palatte! :rofl:

LongGun1
09-25-2011, 15:42
Again - read my original post:

FORAGING for ammo. I am sure there is more 7.62 at MacDill airbase than there is all 30-06 for 100 miles around. NOT relevant. I'm would suspect production is 10-1. Now, take LEO/Mil OUT OF THE EQUATION.

I can't forage the local po-po. They will use the 7.62 ON ME!!!

The question is 100 years of hunting in America vs maybe 25 of civilian/Mil crossover of the caliber; Which is more randomly available. Production is not the question.

There is far more petroleum on earth than grain alcohol. Grain alcohol is easy to find.



Still....taking LEO/Mil out of the equation...

[..but I would not be surprised to see posts & excess gear lost or abandoned in place..

..& know instances of both happening during Katrina..

..with military (La National Guard... Ammo Truck)

.. & with police....(NOLA police station/weapons/ammo)]

..I still would expect to find more 7.62x51mm in most areas of the country than .30-06.


It still boils down to the "cases .vs boxes" thing! :whistling:

And it is nice to build networks with "like-minded"...for many reasons! :thumbsup:





YMMV

427
09-25-2011, 16:04
See - I don't know that I agree with that. I think 30-06 is a main stream hunting general round in a HUGE way. Most 'gun guys' wouldn't think of it because we don't own just one gun or just one caliber!

And again 5.56/7.62 is useless if the Rangers/Seals/Green Berets etc. are not handing it out or are not dead. That warehouse will be heavily guarded a day before the SHTF! Heck - even LEO/Mil/Gov may not be able to get into it...

So if ratio of 06 to 7.72 = 10:1, BUT 95% of it is not available to ME, so only .5 of that equation, or .5 7.62 to 1 06 means...

06 availability = 2:1

See what I mean?

And LG1 - Noted; can only rely on what I have. I'm asking about if/when I run out of that - what's more likely to be available.

Although personally, I think i could use yours. There is no way you can have it all inventoried, or even be able to see over the piles you have to see me snag a case, or even a palatte! :rofl:

In NM, I can find .308 just about everywhere ammo is stocked for a reasonable price.

The only .30-06 that's to be found is the high dollar hunting stuff and that's in limited selection and quantity.

New Mexico has a big hunting population and .30-06 doesn't seem to be all that popular. Everyone (exaggeration) owns a rifle in that caliber, but that's not what they take hunting.

All things being equal and one is foraging for ammo, I think that .308 is more likely to be found than .30-06.

kirgi08
09-25-2011, 16:07
I guess I'll jump in.We have 3 rifles in .308 and 1 in .06.I got the 06 cheap and for the fact the it's a common round here,we have 1500rnds +/- for one rifle.If I happen ta land a Garand that will bump up the need for 06 ta at least 5k.

We have 2 .308 semis and my PSS,so we have around 15k for those three rifles.13k for the semis and 2k of Black Hills match ammo for my PSS.I shudder ta think what that B/Hills cost,It was a B/day gift from the FIL.One could say a .308 is our planned heavy work rifles and the 06 could be used for barter/hand out ta a friend.I won't even think about the .223 we've got.'08.

M1A Shooter
09-25-2011, 16:22
i went through this myself before but not as an availibility deabte but more of a consolidation debate with family. i have a couple uncles who shoot 30-06 so i debated it for my bolt gun but i also shoot m14s so i went with a .308 bolt gun. easier to stack deep. i also know from seeing the ammounts sold at the local shop alone, i am more likely to find a case of .308 vs a couple boxes of 30-06. and thats neglecting the LEO/MIL aspect.

my neighborhood backs up to a military post so most shooters in town that i talk to regularly are military members who also stock military calibers.

PlasticGuy
09-25-2011, 16:41
I have had a variety of fighting rifles in .308 over the last several years, and currently have a couple of FN SCAR 17's. I also have a belt fed Browning 1919 in .30-06 (semi-auto). It is much easier to find ammo for .308 than for the 30-06. It's not even close. The .30-06 ammo is both more difficult to find, and more expensive when I do find it.

I don't count on resupply during "events" anyway. The difference in availability is significant because it makes it harder to stockpile in advance.

AK_Stick
09-25-2011, 18:23
See - I don't know that I agree with that. I think 30-06 is a main stream hunting general round in a HUGE way. Most 'gun guys' wouldn't think of it because we don't own just one gun or just one caliber!

And again 5.56/7.62 is useless if the Rangers/Seals/Green Berets etc. are not handing it out or are not dead. That warehouse will be heavily guarded a day before the SHTF! Heck - even LEO/Mil/Gov may not be able to get into it...

So if ratio of 06 to 7.72 = 10:1, BUT 95% of it is not available to ME, so only .5 of that equation, or .5 7.62 to 1 06 means...

06 availability = 2:1

See what I mean?

And LG1 - Noted; can only rely on what I have. I'm asking about if/when I run out of that - what's more likely to be available.

Although personally, I think i could use yours. There is no way you can have it all inventoried, or even be able to see over the piles you have to see me snag a case, or even a palatte! :rofl:


Yes, 30-06 is mainstream hunting round, but the problem, is thats all it is. Its not a match round, its not a military round, its not a sporting (gaming) caliber.


There are no mass consumers of 30-06, so there are no mass stockpiles of it. Distributors do not carry it by the 10K round lot like the do 7.62. You only find it in 20 round boxes. Because people buy a box, and feed their deer rifle for 5-6 seasons or more off those 20 rounds.

Any way you cut it, there is, and always will be more commercially available 7.62 or 308, than 30-06. Now, thats not to say you can't cant come across a store thats been picked clean of 7.62, and still has 30-06, but that doesn't mean another store won't still have 5 cases of it.


Another thing you need to consider is the difference between calibers and their use. As a SHTF gun, a 30-06 is only really good in a bolt gun, as a hunting, or long distance rifle. Where as the 7.62 makes a good fighting rifle, or a distance/hunting platform, and in some cases both.

I'd rather have 500 rounds of 7.62 in a SCAR 17, if the SHTF and I needed to defend myself, than 5K rounds of 30-06, and my Ruger in 06. Unless ofcourse, I'm trying to defend myself from a bear.

Are you trying to feed a bolt gun for providing food, or keeping it as a long range tool, or are you trying to feed a primary use weapon. That has alot of weight on what caliber you choose.

FireForged
09-25-2011, 18:47
If I had to choose between the two cal that you list... honestly I wouldnt care as long as I had a box of ammo. If I had to choose a common rifle, I would prefer something like a lever action 30/30.

magpie maniac
09-25-2011, 21:18
I don't know many folks that have stockpiles of 30-06.

I'm the exception. I have 3,104 rounds Greek HXP .30-06 to feed my M1 Garands. :cool:

G29Reload
09-25-2011, 22:37
A man with a Garand is pretty well defended. I would definitely use the doorbell, say please and thank you, then leave when asked under my own steam. I would also stay at least 600 yds away if asked.:shocked:

Pitt
09-26-2011, 00:04
I think .308 will be more easily accessible as it is an active military usage cartridge.

AK_Stick
09-26-2011, 01:41
A man with a Garand is pretty well defended. I would definitely use the doorbell, say please and thank you, then leave when asked under my own steam. I would also stay at least 600 yds away if asked.:shocked:



While I really don't ever want to get shot at again, I really wouldn't want to defend myself with an M-1.


It worked in WWII and Korea, and the way we fought then, and its certainly capable of killing today, but its far, far cry from ideal.

magpie maniac
09-26-2011, 05:44
While I really don't ever want to get shot at again, I really wouldn't want to defend myself with an M-1.

It worked in WWII and Korea, and the way we fought then, and its certainly capable of killing today, but its far, far cry from ideal.

Watch the guys at a CMP Garand match at Camp Butner, NC or Camp Perry, OH for a day and see how capable you think a Garand is in defending a position. From prone, I'm a heck of a lot faster popping in a new Garand clip than fumbling with an AR magazine. And you're going to run out of loaded AR magazines a lot sooner than I'm going to run out of loaded Garand clips. And honestly, I'm not planning to do much room-to-room clearing in most SHTF situations.

RatDrall
09-26-2011, 06:12
"Availability if SHTF"

You have access to what you have in your possession.

The only ammo you are likely to come across in a disaster zone would be on a body, with a weapon that fires it nearby.

TangoFoxtrot
09-26-2011, 06:41
I think the 30-06 is more available than the .308 in American homes, but I'd rather a .308 if I had a choice.

Akita
09-26-2011, 08:25
Nope. More popular due to the market for semi autos that handle it and that also drives volume sales. More likely to get wiped out when the shelves are low.

30.06 doesnt have much of a volume market...popular sure, for hunters with single shot (non-detachable mag-fed) unless you have a BAR....

Garands and repros are sure out there, but having a box magazine makes .308 the volume round.

You need SOME 30.06
You need LOTS of .308.

IE, you don't thumb 3 or 8 rounds or whatever in your 20rd mag for a FnFal or M1A. If its SHTF time, you pack all 20 in there and several backup mags.

The volume demand will definitely hit .308 first and wipe that out before Old Soldier.

This is a very valid point that I hadnt considered.

My answer is that we are in a transition at the moment and that I think there is no true winner between the 2. Its probably more of a local availability as to which is more popular in a given area. I do think that the 06 is on the way down in popularity and eventually availability.

quake
09-26-2011, 08:26
...SO my real question: In civilian circles - which would be more available in a forage for ammo situation?...
I'm a .308 guy; don't own even one gun in .30-06 caliber. But the fact is, in my area, no question - .30-06 is more often to be found in people's houses and there's even slightly more of it than .308 in walmart. But we may (MAY) be an aberration as far as the nation overall, being very rural - hillbilly rural - with a lot of hunters having used their .30-06's for decades, and in some cases, even a couple generations. Now, new guns being bought around here aren't more in .30-06 than in .308, but there's just a bunch of them already in place.

Because of that, I stock a small amount of .30-06 for a couple folks' use; family members that use the caliber but are the typical people with a couple boxes of ammo total on hand. I don't shoot the caliber, but do stock a little specifically for their potential use. If my plan or my situation were to have to scrounge rifle ammo from houses, I'd go bet on .30-06 and .30-30, but that's specific to our area; I don't know that that'd be true nationwide.

AK_Stick
09-26-2011, 12:22
Watch the guys at a CMP Garand match at Camp Butner, NC or Camp Perry, OH for a day and see how capable you think a Garand is in defending a position. From prone, I'm a heck of a lot faster popping in a new Garand clip than fumbling with an AR magazine. And you're going to run out of loaded AR magazines a lot sooner than I'm going to run out of loaded Garand clips. And honestly, I'm not planning to do much room-to-room clearing in most SHTF situations.



Prone, static defense positions, are a thing of the past. You'll get fixed in one spot by fire, and then you will get flanked and killed. Not to mention, I think the reality of getting into a gunfight at 600 yds, where you can identify, and engage a enemy is a little silly. Because that probably means you're dealing with an enemy who can call for arty/belt fed suppression.

I've seen shooters at Camp Perry, and I'm not arguing they can hit paper at ridiculous distances, but what someone else can do with a rifle, doesn't really help you. Nor is shooting a match rifle, at a match rifle course, fighting.


But like I said, I'm not saying it can't be used, or its somehow incapable of killing, I just said I wouldn't want to have to use an M-1, when so many better options are available today. I would also note, what you plan on doing, and what we end up doing, are seldom the same.

I don't plan on getting shot at again, or having to shoot at anyone again, but I still own body armor, guns, and top of the line gear just in case.

AK_Stick
09-26-2011, 12:24
I'm a .308 guy; don't own even one gun in .30-06 caliber. But the fact is, in my area, no question - .30-06 is more often to be found in people's houses and there's even slightly more of it than .308 in walmart. But we may (MAY) be an aberration as far as the nation overall, being very rural - hillbilly rural - with a lot of hunters having used their .30-06's for decades, and in some cases, even a couple generations. Now, new guns being bought around here aren't more in .30-06 than in .308, but there's just a bunch of them already in place.

Because of that, I stock a small amount of .30-06 for a couple folks' use; family members that use the caliber but are the typical people with a couple boxes of ammo total on hand. I don't shoot the caliber, but do stock a little specifically for their potential use. If my plan or my situation were to have to scrounge rifle ammo from houses, I'd go bet on .30-06 and .30-30, but that's specific to our area; I don't know that that'd be true nationwide.


I think there are places like your area, all over the hunting area's of the lower 48, and AK/Canada. However, I think if you looked at the big citys like Little Rock, you'd probably find significantly more 308 once you're out of the more rural areas.

walt cowan
09-26-2011, 13:19
The 308 will be available through the black market as the LEO/Military sell it to raise cash for themselves.

don't forget battlefield pick-ups!

walt cowan
09-26-2011, 13:24
during the last shortage i found 30-30 everywhere. seems to me that if you got stopped at a roadblock or the mil/leos searched your house... a box or two of 30-30 would be overlooked by most u.s. personel.

caviteno_loco
09-26-2011, 13:49
I was wondering....in a SHTF situation (let's ignore the definition for purposes of discussion) - which round is currently more available?

On the one hand, 30-06: The great American hunting round. Been with us a long long time. Lot's of hunters out there who if they have one bolt rifle, might have this as the caliber.

On the other hand, .308: The military round du jour in 7.62x51. Also with us for quite a while, and also a respectable and common round these days.

But in reality, is it still mostly a military/LEO round, with some civilian use? Or has it overwhelmed the 30-06, which has nearly 100 years of market existence?

For purposes of discussion, let's ignore the LEO/MIL use; My general consideration is that in SHTF those rounds are generally UNAVAILABLE - because they are in the possession of LEO/MIL. Feel free to add as a caveat if you want...

SO my real question: In civilian circles - which would be more available in a forage for ammo situation? (Add "If LEO considered...if you want - but keep it separate.)

I will have to side with .308, I always see a lot of ammo in this caliber for sale at Walmarts and LGS. Maybe with the availability of cheap .308's (like Russian manufactured), people have them in stock/stash compared to 30-06.
And I have a couple of hundred in stock too for this :supergrin:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x87/bluetb06/Fireworks/SDC12926.jpg

LongGun1
09-26-2011, 16:12
I'm the exception. I have 3,104 rounds Greek HXP .30-06 to feed my M1 Garands. :cool:



Yep...the Garand & belt-fed shooters tend to be the exception to the "box rule"! :supergrin:

RHVEtte
09-26-2011, 17:37
See - I don't know that I agree with that. I think 30-06 is a main stream hunting general round in a HUGE way. Most 'gun guys' wouldn't think of it because we don't own just one gun or just one caliber!

And again 5.56/7.62 is useless if the Rangers/Seals/Green Berets etc. are not handing it out or are not dead. That warehouse will be heavily guarded a day before the SHTF! Heck - even LEO/Mil/Gov may not be able to get into it...

So if ratio of 06 to 7.72 = 10:1, BUT 95% of it is not available to ME, so only .5 of that equation, or .5 7.62 to 1 06 means...

06 availability = 2:1

See what I mean?

And LG1 - Noted; can only rely on what I have. I'm asking about if/when I run out of that - what's more likely to be available.

Although personally, I think i could use yours. There is no way you can have it all inventoried, or even be able to see over the piles you have to see me snag a case, or even a palatte! :rofl:

This is, I think, the sticking point of this discussion. Is this number correct? At 10:1, yeah, I think you're right. But like others here, I think the numbers are closer to 100:1, if not higher. Even if 95% of that is locked up tight, you're still at 5:1 .308 vs .30-06.

Glockdude1
09-26-2011, 17:44
In a SHTF it is a BYOB party (bring your own bullets). I don't think I would be counting on finding or having to barter for any ammunition necessities. That's why I stock everything I think I need and keep it on hand.

:wavey:

:agree:

SHTF = Empty shelves.

:cool:

jdavionic
09-26-2011, 18:06
I tried to find some statistics, but could only find all rifle centerfire cartridges in one group for 2007. However my guess would be that .308 would be more readily available.

enbloc
09-26-2011, 18:26
I'm the exception. I have 3,104 rounds Greek HXP .30-06 to feed my M1 Garands. :cool:

3,104... That's a good START.

~bloc

Aceman
09-26-2011, 19:12
Okay - I surrender. 30-06 is dead. I still like it!

More .308 period
More .308 with civilians
More guns use .308
More types of rounds for .308

LongGun1
09-26-2011, 19:27
Okay - I surrender. 30-06 is dead. I still like it!

More .308 period
More .308 with civilians
More guns use .308
More types of rounds for .308



I would not say dead....far from it...

..but tried to be as accurate as possible about your specific question.


Like Quake.....I no longer have weapons chambered in .30-06

..but I do stock it for "drop-ins"!

Who knows...might end up with another M1 Garand someday...

(putting my left thumb at dire risk yet again :clown: )

..or even a M1-D! :supergrin:


One 'plus' with .30-06..

..AP was not on the 1994 steel-core "BATF reclassification" ban like .308 was..

...that is a big positive right there...IMO!


Then if you are a DCM/CMP Shooter.....another plus there.




But...I would still give the nod to 7.62x51mm.






YMMV

Tim808
09-27-2011, 00:30
Aceman,
FWIW, in my area, it was still easy to find the common hunting calibers when all the popular calibers were out (308, 223, 7.62x39).

Very few people here (Oahu) hunt. I think the majority of rifles sold here are military/tactical/whatever rifles and there is little demand for hunting calibers.

If I found a hunting lever gun, like a 30-30 for really cheap and had money to burn, I'd consider getting it. When shtf, I'd still be able to pick up ammo at Sports Authority and wouldn't need to worry about storing cases of ammo. I'd consider it diversifying.

That being said I still keep at least a case of 7.62x39 at home because who wants to be going out when the sheeple are panicking.

Getting a 30-06 Garand may be a suitable option for your area.

Good luck.

PlasticGuy
09-27-2011, 09:15
Okay - I surrender. 30-06 is dead. I still like it!

More .308 period
More .308 with civilians
More guns use .308
More types of rounds for .308

While I agree with you that the 30-06 is far from dead, finding a couple boxes of hunting ammo and finding a case of affordable fmj ammo are very different things. While I can visualize always having enough random boxes of hunting ammo to feed my bolt action 30-06 rifles, finding it in bulk for my 1919 has been challenging. This is during good times. It won't get easier during a disaster. Finding bulk ammo for my .308 battle rifles is MUCH easier, and finding boxes of hunting ammo for my .308 bolt actions is at least as easy.

Also, I worked as a gun department manager at a Sportsman Warehouse for a couple years before getting into nuclear security. We sold a lot more .308 than .30-06 both locally and nationally. That means that there is a lot more in the supply chain, and probably more on shelves in basements between hunting seasons.

kirgi08
09-27-2011, 11:14
While I agree with you that the 30-06 is far from dead, finding a couple boxes of hunting ammo and finding a case of affordable fmj ammo are very different things. While I can visualize always having enough random boxes of hunting ammo to feed my bolt action 30-06 rifles, finding it in bulk for my 1919 has been challenging. This is during good times. It won't get easier during a disaster. Finding bulk ammo for my .308 battle rifles is MUCH easier, and finding boxes of hunting ammo for my .308 bolt actions is at least as easy.

Also, I worked as a gun department manager at a Sportsman Warehouse for a couple years before getting into nuclear security. We sold a lot more .308 than .30-06 both locally and nationally. That means that there is a lot more in the supply chain, and probably more on shelves in basements between hunting seasons.

Sign of the times,let's go back a wee bit.30.06 was the main MBR round right up ta the end of Korea and it came inta existence in 1906.As the generations roll on there is a curiosity about "advancement" or a round superior ta the .06.Folks start running experiments and the .308 gets life,remember it's the 3Bs,Badder/Better/Bullion.The .308 is a wee bit lighter than a .06 and due ta todays technology has way more folk trying ta tweak max performance outta those rounds.

The .308 has been around for awhile,it's been tweaked and retweaked for 35yrs.So then whats the next round ta go through all these hoops?

I got 2 in mind,the .300WM and the 6.8splc.The 300 has got a few years under it's belt,the 6.8 is kinda a new kid.What I'm saying folks is that there will always be a Bigger/Badder round being developed,but then again;a proper shot from a Flintlock will be as effective as any of the above will.'08.

PlasticGuy
09-27-2011, 12:25
Sign of the times,let's go back a wee bit.30.06 was the main MBR round right up ta the end of Korea and it came inta existence in 1906.As the generations roll on there is a curiosity about "advancement" or a round superior ta the .06.Folks start running experiments and the .308 gets life,remember it's the 3Bs,Badder/Better/Bullion.The .308 is a wee bit lighter than a .06 and due ta todays technology has way more folk trying ta tweak max performance outta those rounds.

The .308 has been around for awhile,it's been tweaked and retweaked for 35yrs.So then whats the next round ta go through all these hoops?

I got 2 in mind,the .300WM and the 6.8splc.The 300 has got a few years under it's belt,the 6.8 is kinda a new kid.What I'm saying folks is that there will always be a Bigger/Badder round being developed,but then again;a proper shot from a Flintlock will be as effective as any of the above will.'08.

True, all. It requires military acceptance though. Never for the 300, and not yet for the 6.8 round.

kirgi08
09-27-2011, 12:35
Ain't the FBI using the .300WM as a counter-sniper weapon? That would kinda indicate a "foot in the door" type scenario.'08.

G29Reload
09-27-2011, 12:59
Ain't the FBI using the .300WM as a counter-sniper weapon?

The Army sniper teams are using it.

So am I.

Its well accepted by the military. Basically a 30.06 "magnum".

M1A Shooter
09-27-2011, 13:15
Army is rebarreling some of their m24s in 300wm

AK_Stick
09-27-2011, 14:55
Very, VERY few. They've long had the capability, but in practice, its not often done, and there isn't very much 300 WM in the supply system, which makes implementation of the system difficult.

There were a few hold outs on turning in the M24, and going over to the M-110. Now with the M24E1 program, they're hitting the armories of end users in the field, but not in significant numbers yet.

Most notibly were the 10th Mountain, and 75 Ranger Batt. Who are also the two big champions of the 300. I'm not even positive that they've maintained that practice, I just know they were the last two making noise about it.

The age of 7.62 bolt guns is ending quickly. They have lost the last hold they had, which was better accuracy than a auto could muster.

I would be surprised however, to see the 300 WM become a common military round. I think its far more likely that the 338 Lapua will become the next long range bolt gun round. They've already got some in the M-24A3.

300 WM just doesn't offer enough of a step over the 308 to justify IMO. (and thats from a 300 WM and WSM owner and shooter). It does extend the range considerably, in the hands of a good shooter, but personally, if I was already humping the bolt gun, I would rather bring the Lapua, and the extension of range over the 300, than a just slightly lighter rifle in the same chassis, offering lesser ballistics.

Cavalry Doc
09-27-2011, 18:14
I was wondering....in a SHTF situation (let's ignore the definition for purposes of discussion) - which round is currently more available?

On the one hand, 30-06: The great American hunting round. Been with us a long long time. Lot's of hunters out there who if they have one bolt rifle, might have this as the caliber.

On the other hand, .308: The military round du jour in 7.62x51. Also with us for quite a while, and also a respectable and common round these days.

But in reality, is it still mostly a military/LEO round, with some civilian use? Or has it overwhelmed the 30-06, which has nearly 100 years of market existence?

For purposes of discussion, let's ignore the LEO/MIL use; My general consideration is that in SHTF those rounds are generally UNAVAILABLE - because they are in the possession of LEO/MIL. Feel free to add as a caveat if you want...

SO my real question: In civilian circles - which would be more available in a forage for ammo situation? (Add "If LEO considered...if you want - but keep it separate.)

What is this "or" you speak of.

I'll have both. I can reload the same bullets, powder and primer in to both cases.

WolfNotSheep
10-02-2011, 19:18
Operating under the assumption that ammo of ANY kind will be available after SHTF is foolish. Prepare beforehand, have and not need.

For the sake of argument, I would go with a 308.

Aceman
10-02-2011, 19:54
Looks like it's time to get the old head adjusted. .308 it is! Can't deny.

Still, I like 30-06 a whiole lot. And saying .300 WM is like a Magnum 30-06 really makes sense to me.

But i have to agree with AK Stick here. If I'm going to .300, I'm not stopping until AT LEAST .338...

UneasyRider
10-02-2011, 20:19
It still boils down to the "cases .vs boxes" thing! :whistling:



I think you have the right idea but the wrong round LG1. If people are buying it by the box there won't be many willing to trade it and I don't know many people who buy either of those rounds by the case (except you) but I know plenty who have multiple thousands of AR or AK rounds (like you do). :wavey:

G29Reload
10-02-2011, 21:20
But i have to agree with AK Stick here. If I'm going to .300, I'm not stopping until AT LEAST .338...

For serious heavy lifting, say a larger vehicle coming up the driveway that won't stop when ordered…375HH is my choice.

AK_Stick
10-02-2011, 22:06
For serious heavy lifting, say a larger vehicle coming up the driveway that won't stop when ordered…375HH is my choice.

While I like my two 375's and my 416, I think on a vehicle, a 338 lapua would probably be far superior, if for no other reason but having better bullets for the job..

LongGun1
10-02-2011, 23:31
I think you have the right idea but the wrong round LG1. If people are buying it by the box there won't be many willing to trade it and I don't know many people who buy either of those rounds by the case (except you) but I know plenty who have multiple thousands of AR or AK rounds (like you do). :wavey:


But AR (5.56x45) & AK (7.62x39mm) rounds were not on the menu!

Went with the choices given. :supergrin:



BTW....I know plenty of folks that stock cases of 7.62 NATO..

..maybe you need a new set of friends! :clown:

LongGun1
10-02-2011, 23:34
For serious heavy lifting, say a larger vehicle coming up the driveway that won't stop when ordered…375HH is my choice.



.50 BMG....when you care enough to send the very best (that is not a DD)! :supergrin:

UneasyRider
10-03-2011, 07:09
But AR (5.56x45) & AK (7.62x39mm) rounds were not on the menu!

Went with the choices given. :supergrin:



BTW....I know plenty of folks that stock cases of 7.62 NATO..

..maybe you need a new set of friends! :clown:

I knew that you were answering to the original question, I just felt that the 2 options were both incorrect (at least around here). In Florida everyone is AR/AK crazy and the gunshops and gunshows have palettes of ammuntion for them, which of course we all buy by the case. In a SHTF this stuff is going to be all over the place around here.

I think that I have the right friends just need a new state. :faint:

Leigh
10-03-2011, 07:55
Yes, 30-06 is mainstream hunting round, but the problem, is thats all it is. Its not a match round, its not a military round, its not a sporting (gaming) caliber.
There are no mass consumers of 30-06, so there are no mass stockpiles of it.

Commerically? I would agree.

As for military surplus (M2 ball, both Lake City and Greek HXP, all non-corrosive) is VERY available and they still seem to like it at Camp Perry for their "gaming" activites.

Stockpiles are readily available through the CMP at about $0.50 per round and yes, there are many, many mass consumers of said ammo.

Leigh
10-03-2011, 07:59
I would even go out on a limb and say that the civilian purchase of MILLIONS of rounds of M2 ball (from CMP) has equalled that of 5.56mm (probably not steel case 7.62 x 39) and easily outnumbered 7.62 NATO.

30-06 is far from dead.

LongGun1
10-03-2011, 13:12
I would even go out on a limb and say that the civilian purchase of MILLIONS of rounds of M2 ball (from CMP) has equalled that of 5.56mm (probably not steel case 7.62 x 39) and easily outnumbered 7.62 NATO.

30-06 is far from dead.


While 30-06 is far from dead..

..I disagree with your assumption.

Many ARs are used in CMP competition in my AO..

..& the last match I competed in years ago ARs outnumbered M1 Garands then..

..& I would assume the trend towards ARs has only increased since then.


BTW...millions of rounds of ammo really isn't as much as it seems..

..especially divided over time..

..and the number of shooters.


If you have exact numbers...be glad to look at the data..

..but I am fairly intimate with what is going on in the industry..

..& 30-06 is far from being the popular "hot" seller .308 is...IMO!

Cavalry Doc
10-03-2011, 17:52
One thing to consider, what is available in the stores today, may not be tomorrow. The most popular and plentiful of anything, is likely to be the first to disappear from the shelves. Even during the worst of the ammo shortage, I never had a problem finding .17 HMR.

Get what you think you'll need now.

Reloading is a cool hobby by the way. It gives you options.

Aceman
10-03-2011, 18:07
WHile we are wandering far and wide here guys....remember - the original issue is:

If SHTF, and you are woandering around LOOKING FOR AMMO, do you think you'd be able to find .308 or ..30-06 more easily?
- NOT what did they make more of
- NOT what are the capabilities of each
- NOT what should I stock
- NOT "How about .223/7.62x39/.338 Lapua/etc.

Simple issue really - is the vast hunting proclivities and 100 years of use make it a more likely to find foraging round than .308's 50 year but glorious military career?

And I maintain - military use of a round honestly tends to make it LESS available in general - as Mil/Leo will either have or want it.

Still, the .308 crowd has very sound arguments. I have to agree with them.

DoctaGlockta
10-03-2011, 19:13
Stock up on both and reloading components to make your own.

Leigh
10-04-2011, 06:54
[QUOTE=LongGun1;17996080]Many ARs are used in CMP competition in my AO..

..& the last match I competed in years ago ARs outnumbered M1 Garands then..

..& I would assume the trend towards ARs has only increased since then.


Agreed, but as far as total numbers of rounds being sold, CMP (DCM) has been selling vast amounts of surplus 30-06 (and M1 and 03 rifles) long before 5.56 was even a thought. Add to that the semi-auto AR-15 Sporter wasn't available until 1963-64 and Uncle Sam had only one platform for 5.56. 30-06 had multiple platforms (03/M1/1919/BAR) so it makes sense more ammo would have been produced and later sold on the surplus market.

100's of millions of rounds M2 sold? I don't have the numbers, I am only guessing but I stand by my premise (based on CMP's purpose/mission) that the numbers exceed 5.56 in total rounds sold.

Of course, with 10k rounds (and probably much less in the real world) of ANY centerfire rifle ammo in reserve, SHTF is better spent on other things; scrounging for ammo not being one of them.

Sorry for getting off track, the thread wasn't about the availabilty of surplus ammo...

Leigh
10-04-2011, 07:13
I'm the exception. I have 3,104 rounds Greek HXP .30-06 to feed my M1 Garands. :cool:

A good "start."
:supergrin:

AK_Stick
10-05-2011, 13:32
[QUOTE=LongGun1;17996080]Many ARs are used in CMP competition in my AO..

..& the last match I competed in years ago ARs outnumbered M1 Garands then..

..& I would assume the trend towards ARs has only increased since then.


Agreed, but as far as total numbers of rounds being sold, CMP (DCM) has been selling vast amounts of surplus 30-06 (and M1 and 03 rifles) long before 5.56 was even a thought. Add to that the semi-auto AR-15 Sporter wasn't available until 1963-64 and Uncle Sam had only one platform for 5.56. 30-06 had multiple platforms (03/M1/1919/BAR) so it makes sense more ammo would have been produced and later sold on the surplus market.

100's of millions of rounds M2 sold? I don't have the numbers, I am only guessing but I stand by my premise (based on CMP's purpose/mission) that the numbers exceed 5.56 in total rounds sold.

Of course, with 10k rounds (and probably much less in the real world) of ANY centerfire rifle ammo in reserve, SHTF is better spent on other things; scrounging for ammo not being one of them.

Sorry for getting off track, the thread wasn't about the availabilty of surplus ammo...


No, without a doubt there is far more 5.56 in circulation than 30-06.

the CMP is really the last hold out of the 30-06, and even with the head start they had, 5.56 has far eclipsed it in service life, and numbers of rounds produced. After the 30-06 was replaced as a service cartridge, other than hunting, its never found itself another niche in a service role.

Think about all the agencies who use it today, almost every cop shop from towns to citys, all federal agencies, CIA/NSA/FBI/.Mil/USSS/USCG.

There are litterally tens of thousands of rounds of 5.56 going downrange every day, no other cartridge, even the 7.62 can claim to see as much use as the 5.56.

Now don't take this to mean 06 is rare, because thats certainly not my intent, but its no where near as available, or common as 5.56 or 308.

Aceman
10-05-2011, 16:20
5.56 is commonly available - that's nice. So are retards. I don't want either of those when SHTF.

I'm looking for a particular type of round for a reason. It's .308 or .30-06. It is not anything LESS than that. (Think bolt gun)

cowboy1964
10-05-2011, 17:16
5.56 is commonly available - that's nice. So are retards. I don't want either of those when SHTF.

I'm looking for a particular type of round for a reason. It's .308 or .30-06. It is not anything LESS than that. (Think bolt gun)

If it has to be .308 or 30-06 and you're that concerned about availability, the smart thing would be to have both.

rem2429
10-06-2011, 00:14
Have an M1a, PSS, and will add a light hunting rifle in .308.
I have thousands of rounds for them, but componets for many more.
Those same componets can be used for .30-06, 7.5 Swiss, and adapted to some others as well. I don't own an 06, but you better believe I have dies for one.

AK_Stick
10-06-2011, 00:42
5.56 is commonly available - that's nice. So are retards. I don't want either of those when SHTF.

I'm looking for a particular type of round for a reason. It's .308 or .30-06. It is not anything LESS than that. (Think bolt gun)

Thats nice, I wasn't directing that statement at you.




That said, unless you have some specific need of a bolt gun, or you're looking at a primarily hunting gun, I think you'd be better served with an auto.

Long range bolt guns, tend to be very heavy, bulky, and less than fun to carry around. Not to mention anymore, they can't do anything a good auto can't. Where as the auto can do quite a bit that isn't an option for your average bolt gun. Not to mention, once you've sat down and looked at the cost of a quality long range rig, you're in almost the same price range.

DoctaGlockta
10-06-2011, 19:01
If the SHTF don't plain on the availability of anything.

Cavalry Doc
10-06-2011, 19:38
If the SHTF don't plain on the availability of anything.

Ding Ding Ding....http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/274/4/7/_winner__remake_by_arrioch.gif


Get what you need now, or be prepared to do without.

Don't count on anything being there for you to easily obtain when millions of others are wanting it too.

Ammo is a limited resource. Good ammo is even more limited, great ammo is hard to come by now. The more users of a particular caliber that are out there, the more demand there will be when the stuff hits the fan.

There is an amount of each caliber available. If you happen to be looking for a wildcat cartridge when the stuff hits the fan, and plenty of it is around, you'll probably beat the couple of dozen of other guys to some of the supply.

I learned much from the Obama-Ammo shortage. I keep a lot more around the house than I used to. I also have the ability to reload my brass in multiple calibers. I'm going to enhance that capability soon. I also have multiple sticks to throw multiple different calibers of rocks. I'll buy what is available as I need it, or I'll make it myself.

Aceman
10-06-2011, 21:18
I'm NOT planning on anything being around. That's a no-brainer.

However, the second tier consideration is what should I pack incase I run out and I DO want to see what's around.

So not only should you pack well, but pack what you'll find.

IMO, 7.62x39 is probably more rare than we think.

The common calibers:

Pistol - 38, 9, 40, 45 (357 is a better choice than 38, and 9 and 45 are both better than 40)

Semi rifle - 5.56, 308, 7.62x39

SG - 12, 20 (mostly 12)

Bolt - ???

when you are depending on calibers OTHER than those, yo are depending on a commodity that is RARE period, SHTF or not...

Have it, find it, make it- cover ALL the bases.

LongGun1
10-07-2011, 06:42
I learned much from the Obama-Ammo shortage.


I learned much from the Clinton-Ammo shortages (& wild price fluctuations). :whistling:


That lesson was to work towards a 'several lifetimes' supply..

..not only for myself..

..but also for my progeny! :supergrin:


And the ability, tools & components to reload..

..not just for the more common calibers..

..but especially for the more esoteric calibers & loads!


As a result...

Ammo cost & availability is no longer the concern it once was.



YMMV

quake
10-07-2011, 11:17
...lesson was to work towards a 'several lifetimes' supply..

..not only for myself..

..but also for my progeny!

...As a result...

Ammo cost & availability is no longer the concern it once was.

Important lesson imo, for preps in general; or even life in general for that matter. Buying more when the price is down, lets you avoid 'needing' to buy when the price is up. Whether it's ammunition, peanut butter, boots, batteries or toilet paper - acting as your own warehouse lets you avoid the peaks in prices and take advantages of the valleys.

Arvinator
10-07-2011, 12:14
I may be off topic, but you take your pick as to what caliber YOU like/want/have and go from there. I have a bolt action 30-06 and some ammo for hunting, and a MN-44 with ammo for serious problem uses. My MN is 7.62x54R, so I have had to buy it by the crate and put it back.
Buy what you like, stock up on what you have. The rest will be scrounge/pickup time...
HOW MUCH ammo is up to you, I do not share my numbers but I think I am ok.

DunRanull
10-09-2011, 03:07
Lets remember the .223 or 5.56 which a lot also use, and some use the Russian rounds, 7.62X39, or the 7.62X54 Mosin. It would behoove one to stock up in .22LR and shotgun ammo. For a common round which can be found everywhere, there is the .30-30. Lots of Winnie and Marlins out there in people's closets.

DunRanull
10-09-2011, 04:57
I'm the exception. I have 3,104 rounds Greek HXP .30-06 to feed my M1 Garands. :cool:
Your M1's feed well then. Excellent Greek chow! :bowdown:

UneasyRider
10-09-2011, 09:01
For a common round which can be found everywhere, there is the .30-30. Lots of Winnie and Marlins out there in people's closets.

I think 30-30 folks buy ammo by the box. That's a common gun but not a common round to stock in bulk. Good to have though, I imagine if you live long enough in an EOTWAWKI situation that you will have collected quite a few of them.

Aceman
10-09-2011, 11:28
Thats nice, I wasn't directing that statement at you.




That said, unless you have some specific need of a bolt gun, or you're looking at a primarily hunting gun, I think you'd be better served with an auto.

Long range bolt guns, tend to be very heavy, bulky, and less than fun to carry around. Not to mention anymore, they can't do anything a good auto can't. Where as the auto can do quite a bit that isn't an option for your average bolt gun. Not to mention, once you've sat down and looked at the cost of a quality long range rig, you're in almost the same price range.

This whole conversation at the outset was intended to be about bolt guns.

"Assuming I'm foraging for bolt gun ammo" might have been a better way to phrase it. But as mentioned - .308 has a mighty big advantage when you consider the cases/boxes factor and the semi cross over.

It still comes down to where are the cases and where are the boxes, and which would there be more of?

But I guess i agree - 30-06 guy is going to carry his TWO boxes with him. If the SHTF was an earthquake, we could take as much of LG1's as we wanted, because he'd be buried alive under a mountain of it...

GAU-8
10-09-2011, 20:24
"Aceman"

If you were truly scrounging and just going into random empty houses my bet would be 30-06 to be the most likely to be found after 22lr and 12 gauge.

That being said, I'm not sure why you would even waste time with this as a consideration. If you have an 06, just make sure you have several hundred rounds of ammo put back.

IMO, Picking a caliber based on scrounging is the biggest fallacy ever talked about in SHTF/Survival circles. After SHTF, the ammo you have on hand is the only ammo you will ever have available. I laugh when I hear people talk about ammo being available at stores after an incident because X caliber is not common or more common. First off take a minute to think about how unlikely it is that someone on this board who likely has hundreds of rounds of ammo for multiple firearms has somehow been in an situation that is so dangerous they have used all their ammo, lived to see the next day and expects Wall Mart to be open with 30-06 for sale. Really?

I like both calibers and have rifles for both. 30-06 is my favorite between the two. It has more range and power and of course that lovely black tipped stuff pretty much punches holes in anything short of a main battle tank.

W.E.G.
10-14-2011, 14:16
Acquire what you can store and defend.

No more.

No less.

When the shooting starts, you can throw away the play-book.

cowboy1964
10-14-2011, 14:52
"Aceman"

If you were truly scrounging and just going into random empty houses my bet would be 30-06 to be the most likely to be found after 22lr and 12 gauge.

I think you seriously underestimate how many .223/5.56 rifles there are out there. I probably see 10 ARs at the range for every non-AR long gun.

GAU-8
10-14-2011, 17:38
I think you seriously underestimate how many .223/5.56 rifles there are out there. I probably see 10 ARs at the range for every non-AR long gun.


That's cause you are at the range. The great majority of firearms in the hands of average citizens will never see a shooting range. Compared to bolt action 30-06, 22lr rifles, and 12 gauge shotguns there are still very few AR15's. You can't use the range or a gunshow or a gunshop to gauge what's out there. It may seem like everyone in the world has an AR to you but the truth is the popularity of AR's is a new thing and it's concentrated in gun enthusiasts. 30-06,22lr and 12 gauge go back a hundred years and there are zillions of them in the corners of closets all across the US.

AK_Stick
10-15-2011, 04:51
Depends entirely upon where you look.


In the country/out of the big citys, yeah you would probably find more bolt hunting guns, than you would AR's.

In the citys though, you're much, much more likely to come across an AR.

Not to mention, while number of hunting rifles sold, grossly outnumber AR's, ammunition wise, the smaller number of AR's account for much more ammo a year than those larger numbers of bolt hunting guns.

bdcochran
10-15-2011, 13:15
Neither is going to be "more available" in foraging.

1. ammo is heavy. It is not a foraging item.

2. ammo will not be available. Oh sure - there might be a guy selling some rounds. I dare venture, however, that if shtf, people aren't going to want to dispose of their individual hoards.

3. most people that I know have very few rounds at home. This includes more experienced shooters. A number of times I have taken a class and learned that guys were short ammo because they stopped at Walmart on the way to the range and the ammo that they wanted to buy was in short supply or non-existent. Note, I am talking about classes 10 and 15 years ago when there wasn't a purported supply problem.

4. Red Dawn, Walter Mitty, and foraging for ammo are probably in the same category of unreal scenarios.

5. The average guy will be lucky to survive three intense combat experiences (and I include myself). Make your plans accordingly.

6. Just how many rounds do you think that a US combat soldier carried in WWII, Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. Understand that the ongoing needs for heavier items like water and food were constantly resupplied. Now, as a computer jockey, a guy is going to forage for ammo? He will go house to house and building to building looking for ammo and then carrying off whatever quantity that he locates? Not very real. You get what you may want now - and realistically rule out foraging.

rickky
11-07-2011, 00:59
Not sure if it has been mentioned but a 30-06 can be converted into a 308 with a simple insert and the insert can also be removed with a shell exstracter, thousands of m1 were converted this way to 308.

Maine1
11-07-2011, 02:59
"..those with .308 tend to stock cases.....not boxes"

- exactly. And we reload, too.

its been mentioned several times about settling on a caliber, commiting to it and 1) Stocking it 2) PRODUCING it.
I'll add that when SHTF, you want AMMO< not components. That's why i am getting the lead out of my ass and loading up my hoard now.

j-glock22
11-07-2011, 04:40
It would be foolish to think that any type of ammo or accessory or weapon will be somehow available if something happens. Prepare before so you wont have to worry about it.

Wolf Spyder
11-13-2011, 21:56
I have read this whole thing... and forgetting the thread drift... I would like to answer the OP question.

I have been thinking about these types of topics for over 20 years now. For the last 10 to 15 years I have been talking to folks, asking questions, trying to learn. Just since Clinton and the AWB did some of my family start to listen to the things I have been talking about. We have put together basic action plans and we have been putting some supplies together for a "Natural Disaster". We call it that so that it is more or less Politically Correct and don't stir up any negative stereo types with in-laws and the like.

We started with what we had, hunting caliber long guns. Our goal was for each of us to own a pump shotgun, a bolt action rifle with a scope, an AR15 type of rifle, a .22lr rifle, and several handguns. We have been collecting camping gear and cold weather gear. As money is available we are becoming more prepared.

My father & uncle both had .30-06 hunting rifles. So we talked about what our bolt action rifles should be chambered in; .30-06 or .308? We finally decided that .308 was a better choice.

The main reason we went with the .308 is because during an "event" like Katrina the Local PD hung a closed sign in the window and went home. The military moved in to keep law and order, but all they did was disarm the good guys and the home owners. Or so it seemed that way to us. So the military became the bad guys because they were kicking down your door and taking your stuff... your guns. We figured .308 would be more available when we started "foraging" off of dead bodies.

Avoiding and hiding will be our plan for survival, but targets of opportunity will not be over looked. Who knows, it may come down to stealing from others and that might include military or LEO supply lines... Not what you want to be doing, but then again who know how bad it might get... so nothing is off the table. To that end I think you might find .308 more than you might find .30-06.