Christians Leaving Egypt in Droves [Archive] - Glock Talk

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happyguy
09-28-2011, 02:17
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/499187

I'm shocked, shocked I say...they just don't realize how good they have it with all the peace and love coming as a result of the Arab spring.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Brucev
09-28-2011, 05:36
Between their daily Bible readings, the Coptics have been reading. They've been reading newspaper accounts of increasing hostility/criminal activity targeting Christians. They've been reading history. They've gone all the way back to 1933.

Paul7
10-04-2011, 08:51
......the ongoing 'Kristallnacht' against Christians in Muslim lands in the Mideast continues.

Sharkey
10-04-2011, 16:53
You guys have it all wrong. Egyptian Muslims are peaceful. I mean a peaceful Muslim here on GT was explaining the good that the Muslim brotherhood does. I'm sure it's a big misunderstanding. Surely they don't see those Christians as Infidels?

If only we could get the peaceful ones here to go out to the Middle East and be ambassadors for Islam.

Roering
10-04-2011, 18:55
You guys have it all wrong. Egyptian Muslims are peaceful. I mean a peaceful Muslim here on GT was explaining the good that the Muslim brotherhood does. I'm sure it's a big misunderstanding. Surely they don't see those Christians as Infidels?

If only we could get the peaceful ones here to go out to the Middle East and be ambassadors for Islam.

I wonder how many Coptic Christians we may have on GT that could share some experiences here.

Akil8290
10-05-2011, 10:03
You guys have it all wrong. Egyptian Muslims are peaceful. I mean a peaceful Muslim here on GT was explaining the good that the Muslim brotherhood does. I'm sure it's a big misunderstanding. Surely they don't see those Christians as Infidels?

If only we could get the peaceful ones here to go out to the Middle East and be ambassadors for Islam.

At which point did I sing praises of the Muslim Brotherhood?

You said they were responsible for honor killings and other atrocities in the U.S., I countered and said that was false and the Brotherhood promotes jihad through peaceful means and that their primary mission was to overthrow governments they see as corrupt. The Islamist governments in the countries they operate in want them dismantled, jailed and if possible, put to death.

The rest of the sarcasm in your post only serves to magnify the ignorance you have of Islam, such as Christians as infidels (false).

Akil8290
10-05-2011, 10:04
......the ongoing 'Kristallnacht' against Christians in Muslim lands in the Mideast continues.


Careful, Paul. The last thing you want to do is turn into the next snowbird.

Sharkey
10-05-2011, 22:03
At which point did I sing praises of the Muslim Brotherhood?

If you are gonna quote me, at least get it right. Did I say you sing praises?
I said that you said the Muslim Brotherhood does good, kinda like the Black Panthers.

You said they were responsible for honor killings and other atrocities in the U.S., I countered and said that was false and the Brotherhood promotes jihad through peaceful means and that their primary mission was to overthrow governments they see as corrupt. The Islamist governments in the countries they operate in want them dismantled, jailed and if possible, put to death.

I did not say that. You interpreted that even after I clarified it in another post. So the govt. wants the Brotherhood put to death, does the Brotherhood want anyone killed?

The rest of the sarcasm in your post only serves to magnify the ignorance you have of Islam, such as Christians as infidels (false).

So no Christians in the Middle East were killed because they were infidels?
What about Jews? Are they Infidels?

Paul7
10-06-2011, 08:55
Careful, Paul. The last thing you want to do is turn into the next snowbird.

I stand by my statement. Do you have any evidence it isn't true?

kirgi08
10-06-2011, 11:05
Seems prudent ta me.'08.

nmk
10-06-2011, 11:19
I stand by my statement. Do you have any evidence it isn't true?

One could argue it's a matter of scale.

Kingarthurhk
10-08-2011, 13:48
I saw again, it underscores why church and state should never mix. It always ends in persecution and evil.

Dexters
10-08-2011, 13:56
The attacks on the Christians in Egypt happened before the darkness fell over Egypt. Now the crimes against them increase in the darkness.

So far the darkness has covered Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Iran, and Somalia. It will be spreading.

I wonder how Israel is planning to handle be surrounded by militant Islamic nations lusting for its death?

Dexters
10-08-2011, 14:07
I saw again, it underscores why church and state should never mix. It always ends in persecution and evil.

There is no state in that part of the world, just the 'church'. The political boundaries on the map there were drawn by the French and English. Those lines can be easily erased and they will be.

First, each state will become an Islamic state then the lines will be erased when the caliphate is established. It is just a matter of time.

The more misery now the sooner it all will happen.

Vic Hays
10-08-2011, 23:01
There is no state in that part of the world, just the 'church'. The political boundaries on the map there were drawn by the French and English. Those lines can be easily erased and they will be.

First, each state will become an Islamic state then the lines will be erased when the caliphate is established. It is just a matter of time.

The more misery now the sooner it all will happen.

It is amazing that more people haven't caught on to what is happening. Do they think that it was just coincidence that all these places just happened to revolt against their rulers at the same time? The Islamic Brotherhood is pushing openly for a caliphate. With Islam the religion is the government.

The Bible is not silent on this. The caliphate has been traditionally the king of the South in Bible prophecy. The king of the South is to set up his government in Jerusalem just before the second coming of Jesus, but it will fail.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Sharkey
10-10-2011, 08:09
See, it's not the Muslim Brotherhoods fault. It is those violent Christians in Egypt that are causing the problem. Nevermind that their homes and churches were burned down or that a military vehicle came in and ran over some of the protestors.

http://news.yahoo.com/clashes-resume-between-egyptian-christians-police-101822266.html

Can we get the "Occupy ......." crowd to head over there and sit in. They can take their IPhones and Starbuck Coffee with them. O's Admin could even probably set some type of payment up for them. We'll just take it out of the fund we give to foreign countries to stabilize govts.

Paul7
10-10-2011, 08:16
One could argue it's a matter of scale.

Yes, Kristallnacht was in one nation, the Muslim campaign against Christians is worldwide.

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 18:48
So no Christians in the Middle East were killed because they were infidels?
What about Jews? Are they Infidels?



At which point did I reference the Black Panther Party? When did I say the Muslim Brotherhood does 'good'? I explained the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood; i.e. unarmed jihad, use of democracy to get things changed in their favor. So if you're going to quote me, get it right.

I can't say that no Christians were ever killed in the Middle East, nor can I say that no Jews or Muslims were killed, either; because people from all of those faiths were at some point.

Jews and Christians infidels? Do you just make this stuff up? In the Qur'an Jews and Christians are "People of The Book," meaning they are people of the holy scriptures (Torah, Bible) who believe in the one true God, just as we do. Where do you think the concept of God comes from in Islam? Abraham.

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 18:49
I stand by my statement. Do you have any evidence it isn't true?

What evidence do you have that it is?

Paul7
10-15-2011, 19:03
What evidence do you have that it is?

To stick to the OP, here it is in Egypt.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/02/christian-persecution-continues-amid-egypt-turmoil/

Do you want me to go down the list of Muslim countries? Clinton went into Bosnia to protect Muslims being abused, why aren't we doing it in Egypt?

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 19:26
To stick to the OP, here it is in Egypt.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/02/christian-persecution-continues-amid-egypt-turmoil/

Do you want me to go down the list of Muslim countries? Clinton went into Bosnia to protect Muslims being abused, why aren't we doing it in Egypt?

I've already posted a list of Muslim countries before. So what will that prove?

We went to Bosnia to stop 'ethnic cleansing'; remember when the Serbs where killing tons of Bosnian Muslims?

That FOX News article said extremists where the problem in Egypt; not the government. It further stated that Egpyt has freedom of religion in their constitution. Also, I did not see where it mentioned your 85% of Egyptians think apostates should be killed.

The noble battle of GT'ers against Islam continues..

Paul7
10-15-2011, 22:37
We went to Bosnia to stop 'ethnic cleansing'; remember when the Serbs where killing tons of Bosnian Muslims?

And Christians are being killed in Egypt because of their faith, it is religious cleansing. Why don't you look up what the percentage of Christians is in the Middle East today compared to 75 years ago?

That FOX News article said extremists where the problem in Egypt; not the government.

The government is doing nothing to stop these atrocities, your hair splitting means nothing to the victims.

It further stated that Egpyt has freedom of religion in their constitution.

Tell it to Ferial Habib in this story: http://www.persecution.org/2011/10/15/christians-fear-islamist-pressure-in-egypt/ It isn't the 'extremists' persecuting this Christian girl, it is the government school officials.

The Egyptian constitution when it comes to religious freedom means about as much as when the old USSR guaranteed freedom in theirs.

Also, I did not see where it mentioned your 85% of Egyptians think apostates should be killed.

Here you go: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-egypt-islam-poll-idUSTRE7116ND20110202 Also note 20% of Egyptian Muslims are favorable towards Al-Queda. Nice.......that makes 15,600,000 Al-Queda supporters in just one Muslim country. Spin that.

Also note 82% believe adulterers should be stoned.

The noble battle of GT'ers against Islam continues..

For someone supposedly against Muslim extemism you sure get upset when we point it out. Why is that?

kirgi08
10-15-2011, 22:58
Well said.'08.

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 23:03
And Christians are being killed in Egypt because of their faith, it is religious cleansing. Why don't you look up what the percentage of Christians is in the Middle East today compared to 75 years ago? The Middle East is pretty broad; why don't we look at each individual country. Does the rest of the ummah subscribe to the practices of Egypt, Iran or Saudi Arabia? No.



The government is doing nothing to stop these atrocities, your hair splitting means nothing to the victims.
It also said this stays largely out of the public eye. How much of it is the government really aware of?



Tell it to Ferial Habib in this story: http://www.persecution.org/2011/10/15/christians-fear-islamist-pressure-in-egypt/ It isn't the 'extremists' persecuting this Christian girl, it is the government school officials. Try and wear a hijab to school in Italy.

The Egyptian constitution when it comes to religious freedom means about as much as when the old USSR guaranteed freedom in theirs. So the Egyptian government practices Marxism? How narrow is the scope of this interpretation?



Here you go: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-egypt-islam-poll-idUSTRE7116ND20110202 Also note 20% of Egyptian Muslims are favorable towards Al-Queda. Nice.......that makes 15,600,000 Al-Queda supporters in just one Muslim country. Spin that.
46% say suicide bombings aren't justified..
70% are concerned about extremism in Egypt..
61% are concerned about extremism outside of Egypt..
73% expressed no confidence in O.B.L.

Do we really know if all the same people surveyed were asked all of the same questions? What about their education level? What do you know about these people other than faith and nationality?

Spin that.


For someone supposedly against Muslim extemism you sure get upset when we point it out. Why is that?

I'm not upset about anything. Why is it that you continue to present extremism as it it is mainstream Islam? How come you've never asked me personally about these issues or what I think? Because you know my answers will threaten a position you've already decided is true. You just post and quote articles without contributing any insight; you're so obtuse.

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 23:04
Well said.'08.

You want to weigh in here or are you good watching from the sidelines?

ancient_serpent
10-15-2011, 23:30
I was in Iraq when muslims surrounded, attacked and killed a large number of christians in Baghdad. Not too very far from where it happened, when it happened, matter of fact. I spoke with a very frightened christian afterwards that told me about some of the persucution he, as a christian goes through.
I hate that anyone has to deal with such behavior. I would feel the same if it were muslims being treated like this. But that isn't what is happening, is it?
Living in the distant past serves noone, todays muslims would do well to realize it is a different world now. If as many continue to act as they have, it will continue to reflect badly on them all.

kirgi08
10-15-2011, 23:41
You want to weigh in here or are you good watching from the sidelines?

Since you asked,I'm good at the sideline thing.The next time folk of your religious adherence attack this nation,I'd be ready ta accept the outcome.Fair enough? .'08.

BTW,there is no such thing as Muslim "Lite",either you follow your religion or you don't.Your choice dictates your path,if you deny that path:yer not muslim.

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 23:49
Since you asked,I'm good at the sideline thing.The next time folk of your religious adherence attack this nation,I'd be ready ta accept the outcome.Fair enough? .'08.

BTW,there is no such thing as Muslim "Lite",either you follow your religion or you don't.Your choice dictates your path,if you deny that path:yer not muslim.

Is that a threat? Should I be scared?

So you can decide who is a Muslim? Really? You don't know the first thing about Islam; we've had exchanges before and I know this. Back to who's a Muslim and who isn't, so why are there so many different schools of jurisprudence (madhab)? How come all of the scholars (ulema) don't agree? What about Shias and Sunnis; which one is a true Muslim? What about the Ahmadiyyas? C'mon kirgi, break down some Qur'an, haddith and sunnah for me, brother.

What about Jews and Christians? Who's real and who's not? What even gives you that authority?

I guess you're all on your din (religion) and I ain't on mine.

Akil8290
10-15-2011, 23:57
I was in Iraq when muslims surrounded, attacked and killed a large number of christians in Baghdad. Not too very far from where it happened, when it happened, matter of fact. I spoke with a very frightened christian afterwards that told me about some of the persucution he, as a christian goes through.
I hate that anyone has to deal with such behavior. I would feel the same if it were muslims being treated like this. But that isn't what is happening, is it?
Living in the distant past serves noone, todays muslims would do well to realize it is a different world now. If as many continue to act as they have, it will continue to reflect badly on them all.

But we're not all the same. Islam is the world's most diverse and ecclectic religion. There is so much variation, that the idea of a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim doesn't always gel.

Islam is going through a reform era; Christianity had to go through one, as well. There are more and more forward thinking progressive Muslims now than there ever was. We've got a ways to go, the world has changed and we must change with it and a lot of us are.

People are so focused on Egypt and Iran that nobody sees the progress that has been made elsewhere in the ummah, like Turkey. Turkey was the heart of the Ottoman Empire when it was still in existance and even then it was rapidly evolving. There's other places, too.

kirgi08
10-16-2011, 00:03
Is that a threat? Should I be scared?

So you can decide who is a Muslim? Really? You don't know the first thing about Islam; we've had exchanges before and I know this. Back to who's a Muslim and who isn't, so why are there so many different schools of jurisprudence (madhab)? How come all of the scholars (ulema) don't agree? What about Shias and Sunnis; which one is a true Muslim? What about the Ahmadiyyas? C'mon kirgi, break down some Qur'an, haddith and sunnah for me, brother.

What about Jews and Christians? Who's real and who's not? What even gives you that authority?

I guess you're all on your din (religion) and I ain't on mine.

:animlol:

Akil8290
10-16-2011, 00:04
:animlol:

Yep, you got nothing!:rofl:

kirgi08
10-16-2011, 00:09
youse foolish.Whom flew what inta where.At least the menu will be diverse.'08.

Akil8290
10-16-2011, 00:20
youse foolish.Whom flew what inta where.At least the menu will be diverse.'08.

What? I think I see what you're getting at through all that incoherent gibberish, but is that really all you've got? Come on..

I'll give you another chance. Try again, bro.

Jeff82
10-16-2011, 01:23
My sig line says all that needs to be said.

Akil8290
10-16-2011, 01:39
My sig line says all that needs to be said.
So brilliant. Is that a Jeff82 original?

cowboywannabe
10-16-2011, 02:01
muslims are like the Nazis. they are for ethinic cleansing, and while only some of them actually participate in the murders, the rest do nothing to stop it.

Akil8290
10-16-2011, 02:48
muslims are like the Nazis. they are for ethinic cleansing, and while only some of them actually participate in the murders, the rest do nothing to stop it.

That's new to me.

ancient_serpent
10-16-2011, 04:41
But we're not all the same. Islam is the world's most diverse and ecclectic religion. There is so much variation, that the idea of a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim doesn't always gel.

Islam is going through a reform era; Christianity had to go through one, as well. There are more and more forward thinking progressive Muslims now than there ever was. We've got a ways to go, the world has changed and we must change with it and a lot of us are.

People are so focused on Egypt and Iran that nobody sees the progress that has been made elsewhere in the ummah, like Turkey. Turkey was the heart of the Ottoman Empire when it was still in existance and even then it was rapidly evolving. There's other places, too.

This is something that I believe as well. Plenty of horrible things have been done in the name of Muhammed, plenty have been done in Christs name as well.

It will take time and lots of effort but I think that moderate muslims can help in reducing the number of extremists.

I draw a hard line on the implentation of Sharia law, I despise the treatment of women in the places I have been. Cruelty and violence are a deplorable trait in any people. I advocate the elimination of extremists that threaten my country and our people.

That said, I have quite a few friends that are muslim. Many of them are as tired of the violence as we are. It is fine to stand against a threat, just realize that there are many muslim people out there that are not a threat.

Paul7
10-16-2011, 07:01
But we're not all the same. Islam is the world's most diverse and ecclectic religion. There is so much variation, that the idea of a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim doesn't always gel.

Islam is going through a reform era; Christianity had to go through one, as well. There are more and more forward thinking progressive Muslims now than there ever was. We've got a ways to go, the world has changed and we must change with it and a lot of us are.

People are so focused on Egypt and Iran that nobody sees the progress that has been made elsewhere in the ummah, like Turkey. Turkey was the heart of the Ottoman Empire when it was still in existance and even then it was rapidly evolving. There's other places, too.

The problem is that much of the evolution today in the Muslim world is to a more extreme, violent form.

Paul7
10-16-2011, 07:14
I'm not upset about anything. Why is it that you continue to present extremism as it it is mainstream Islam?

In Egypt, extremist positions in regard to converts and what to do with adulterers IS mainstream, according to Pew, who I assume know how to conduct a poll.

How come you've never asked me personally about these issues or what I think?

Your answers (I assume you oppose these extremist positions) have nothing to do with what people in Egypt think, or how Christians are routinely mistreated there.

Because you know my answers will threaten a position you've already decided is true.

Again, your opinions are irrelevant to the real situation in Egypt. I am not going to be silent in the face of mass oppression of Christians in Muslim nations just because it might offend you. Again, if you are really interested in stopping these abuses by your coreligionists shouldn't you want to publicize them also? You don't see Christians being offended by negative press about the Westboro Baptists. I assume you think it unfair that Christians in Egypt have to jump through infinite hoops in order to build or repair a church while Muslims have no such restrictions? The routine mistreatment of non-Muslims and of women in the 'ummah' is a basic human rights issue, just as the campaign against Apartheid was in the '80s and '90s.

You just post and quote articles without contributing any insight; you're so obtuse.

That is a meaningless statement, the facts speak for themselves.

Akil8290
10-16-2011, 08:29
The problem is that much of the evolution today in the Muslim world is to a more extreme, violent form.

Not necessarily. Out of the entire Muslim world, only seven are still Islamic Republics.

Like it or not, Islam is slowly but surely giving way to moderate ideology.

Akil8290
10-16-2011, 08:46
In Egypt, extremist positions in regard to converts and what to do with adulterers IS mainstream, according to Pew, who I assume know how to conduct a poll.

Don't assume anything. What do they say about assuming?



Your answers (I assume you oppose these extremist positions) have nothing to do with what people in Egypt think, or how Christians are routinely mistreated there.

I think I've made my position abundantly clear; yet, I find that you challenge it more and more. You truly will not be satisified until you get me to say I am an Islamist, won't you?


Again, your opinions are irrelevant to the real situation in Egypt. I am not going to be silent in the face of mass oppression of Christians in Muslim nations just because it might offend you. Again, if you are really interested in stopping these abuses by your coreligionists shouldn't you want to publicize them also? You don't see Christians being offended by negative press about the Westboro Baptists. I assume you think it unfair that Christians in Egypt have to jump through infinite hoops in order to build or repair a church while Muslims have no such restrictions? The routine mistreatment of non-Muslims and of women in the 'ummah' is a basic human rights issue, just as the campaign against Apartheid was in the '80s and '90s.
Yet, you keep trying to pass off extremism as mainstream Islam. You must think I don't read your posts in other threads; you seem to behave quite differently when you're not interacting with a Muslim. Besides, Muslims have been denoucing terrorism from the start, does the media get that out there? No. If the media would do that we would have no need for publications like The American Muslim. Once in a great while, we get to have the floor, and ABC will run a special like "Should America Fear Islam?" Did you see it? If not, let me save you the time; Rev. Graham, some guy had that had a family member die on 9/11 and Robert Spencer against Daisy Khan, some academic lady from Tehran, another lady that I think had a family member die on 9/11, the Imam from the Murpheesboro mosque, a Muslim correspondant from elsewhere who's name escapes me, but who shredded Graham and Anjem Choudary from England, which I thought was a joke. Long story short, people yelled over each other, the Muslims made some good points, except Choudary, nobody listened and everybody went home. So much for getting the moderates to publicly denounce terrorism. Mainstream America, just like you, doesn't listen. Why? Because, again, it threatens a position people have already decided is true.


That is a meaningless statement, the facts speak for themselves.

I could've just called you a moron.

happyguy
10-16-2011, 09:08
Religious persecution has been in existence throughout history. Look what happened to Jesus. It's just in the nature of some humans to be that way.

Thank God for those that are willing resist them.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Sharkey
10-16-2011, 11:24
Akil, I never attributed the Black Panthers to a quote you made so don't misquote me when You try to say I misquoted you. I didn't. The Black Panthers was a similarity I made to the Brotherhood and the "good" they do.

There seems to be a disconnect from the true Islamic zealots and those who prefer the moderate or lite version of Islam. I'm not in Egypt and neither are you Akil but what we do know is that Christians have been attacked in Egypt and many have fled the country. Why? I'm pretty logical and can deduce that it is because they were seen as Infidels and persecuted.

Ok, so you don't see Christians and Jews as infidels. Good for you. A majority of countrymen in the ME who just happen to practice the same religion as you do and THAT is my issue. Moderate Islam is growing? I would say the opposite but hey, we agree to disagree. I should be grateful. If I was posting from Egypt, I might not be so lucky.