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mike g35
10-02-2011, 15:20
Does anyone have any load data for the following:
9mm Major (+p+)
9mm light target load (subsonic)
40S&W Minor

I have a reloading manual but it doesnt cover these types of loads. Is there a book i can get that does cover the major and minor loads?

Just thought I would post this pic for those of you that have helped me to get started reloading. I haven't got my press yet but its not going to be long now at all. I decided to go with the Dillon Precision 550B because its supposed to be easier for begginers and if I decide to get the 650 then I can just sell my 550B later anyway. Anyway what you see is what I shoot in a week plus 4 boxes for a upcoming GSSF match. And thats just the 40!!!! I shoot almost that much 9mm every week plus my .38 ammo also. Now factor in how much 9mm my father shoots which is almost the same thing and you know why I wanted to start reloading.:faint:

Beanie-Bean
10-02-2011, 15:30
Doesn't the formula go something like this:

PF= (bullet weight X muzzle velocity) / 1000

Major >165
Minor <165

Looks like you prefer the .40 S&W in 165 gr. What load manuals have you picked up already? Lyman 49, Hornady 8, and Speer 14 are all excellent.

ron59
10-02-2011, 15:40
I'd stay away from 9mm major until you are a more experienced reloader. I personally would never even try that, I think it's excessive for that caliber.

If you want major, shoot .40. 9mm is great for all events in minor pf.

Colorado4Wheel
10-02-2011, 16:02
1) Your not buying 9Major now so don't try to start loading it. Give yourself some time before you start trying that. BUT, you can get a couple good load manuals and work up some safe 9mm loads that are on the upper end once you get the hang of the easy stuff. You need to go to Brian Enos Forums for that info. LOTS of good info there. But DON'T start trying to do that yet. Stay safe.

2) All your other questions are answered in a Lyman and many other reloading manuals.

3) Just get the press already. 550/650 it doesn't mater. Stop buying factory ammo.

Edit: I reread your post. Just get the 650 with the casefeeder. A 550 is a mistake. Your wasting a lot of money now. You can afford the 650 and you will end up with one in less then a year and wonder why you wasted the money on a 550.

NavArch
10-02-2011, 16:06
I cannot help you with max power loads, as I have not explored that regime. My efforts in the minor range were for reducing abuse on my wrists and elbows, not for competitive use, so the data should not be taken as gospel as being precisely a PF of 130. Laziness has been the reason for not confirming the speed of these loads. The data below should get you in the close vicinity of minor power factor. In the 40S&W, my goal was to have it shoot as softly as a 9mm.

I started with the Speer Reloading Manual #13, which lists the expected MV. I then used proportional powder weight to get closer to the minor power factor. This is not truly the case, but for loose loads like these, it seems to be pretty good logic. All of these loads use TightGroup powder because the small round grains meter nicely in my Hornady Lock-n-Load press.

9mm
R-P brass
Win SP primer
Rainier HP 147 gr
1.100 OAL

40S&W
R-P brass
Win SP primer
Berry FP 165 gr
1.120 OAL

fredj338
10-02-2011, 18:39
You won't find any printed/vetted/tested 9mm+P data, certainly not +P+. Minor loads are what you make them. A quick look @ any reloading manual shows you starting loads, reliable minor loads will often be 0.1-0.2gr above starting. You are making it to difficult & it just is not. Get a couple good manuals, like the Speer #14 & Lyman #49, it's all there if you just look at it.:dunno:

mike g35
10-02-2011, 18:56
I'd stay away from 9mm major until you are a more experienced reloader. I personally would never even try that, I think it's excessive for that caliber.

If you want major, shoot .40. 9mm is great for all events in minor pf.
Thanks for all the information and the wise advice Ron and everyone else. Considering I am spending $1899.99 on my new "Nova" 9mm Carver racegun maybe I shouldn't try blowing up right yet!!! Glad you guys said what you said.
As for my reloading manuals all I have bought thus far was a Nosler manual because it was what was available at the time and it had a pretty good explanation of the reloading process. The problem is the manual seems geared towards rifle shooters not pistol shooters. It doesn't even have any data for the .38 super in it. So which manual would be the best for me to get (lets pretend I can only get one)???
Now on to the comment about the 650 and the my choice the 550B. I am just trying to play it safe. EVERYTHING I have read says the 550B is great for unexperienced reloaders and the 650 shouldn't be the 1st press that I buy. I am sure the 650 is a better reloading machine but I just feel better going with the simpler 550B for now. And since Dillon presses seem to hold their value pretty well I can sell it when I want to upgrade to a 650 anyway. I do plan on getting a casefeeder with the 550B along with all Dillon accessories. I'm gonna keep my reloading bench blue and woodgrain. I will not use anything but Dillon products after some of the nightmare stories I have read about other manufacturers gear.

mike g35
10-02-2011, 18:58
By the way doesn't that picture make you guys ill???? There's ALOT of money in that little box and if I reloaded I wouldn't even of had to pay half. That was a $340 ammo purchase.

Colorado4Wheel
10-02-2011, 19:04
EVERYTHING I have read says the 550B is great for unexperienced reloaders and the 650 shouldn't be the 1st press that I buy. I am sure the 650 is a better reloading machine but I just feel better going with the simpler 550B for now. And since Dillon presses seem to hold their value pretty well I can sell it when I want to upgrade to a 650 anyway. I do plan on getting a casefeeder with the 550B along with all Dillon accessories. I'm gonna keep my reloading bench blue and woodgrain. I will not use anything but Dillon products after some of the nightmare stories I have read about other manufacturers gear.

That is a HORRIBLE choice. SOME say the 650 is not great for a new reloader. Let me ask you a basic question. 650 and LnL get compared all the time RIGHT? All the time. Yet you don't see Hornady or LnL users saying "Don't buy the LnL as your first press! Nope. Why not. Because it just doesn't mater. Brian Enos and his group are the ONLY ones who really say to start with a 550. But the reality is the 650 is just not the complicated. WHATEVER YOU DO. Do not buy the casefeeder for the 550. It sucks. It's HORRIBLE. The bowl works fine but the slider is a PITA. GET THE 650 if you want a casefeeder. 550+Casefeeder is just not a great setup and is much harder to setup properly then a 650 + Casefeeder. You are making a horrible choice. I have owned all the above. I know what I am talking about.

Colorado4Wheel
10-02-2011, 19:09
From Brian Enos himself.

Should I buy the Casefeeder if I buy a 550?
If you already own a 550 and only load pistol ammo, the Casefeeder will be a nice improvement to your machine - if your goal is to increase production. If you are thinking of buying a 550 with the Casefeeder - especially just to load one caliber - buy the 650 instead. (The auto-indexing of the 650 makes it a truly progressive machine.) More details on this in the Dillon FAQs.


Dillon 550 casefeeder is a PITA to adjust for multiple calibers. If your going to get a 550 get a 550 with no casefeeder. Learn on that. Sell it (you will because you want a casefeeder) and then get a 650. Total waste.

dkf
10-02-2011, 19:21
I already bought two manuals (Lee 2nd Ed. and Lyman 49) but can I depend on the site below for good data?

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Colorado4Wheel
10-02-2011, 19:25
I have the same manuals and I use Hodgdons site all the time. Hodgdon has a great site. Lee's manual is just a compilation of a bunch of public domain sources (like Hodgdon site). Problem with Lee is that it combines a bunch of separate sources into one batch. Not as good. Lyman is great. Lee has useful stuff but I normally find the same data on the manufactures site.

mike g35
10-02-2011, 19:35
From Brian Enos himself.



Dillon 550 casefeeder is a PITA to adjust for multiple calibers. If your going to get a 550 get a 550 with no casefeeder. Learn on that. Sell it (you will because you want a casefeeder) and then get a 650. Total waste.
And I quote "a truely progressive", well S%#T!!!:rofl: I thought I had this figured out, looks like I almost made a 1000 dollar mistake. I guess since I seem to have the entire GT reloading forum getting my back on this (thanks very much by the way) I might as well get the 650 and if I have trouble I can just ask the questions on here that i need to to fix whatever problem I am having. I am SO glad you posted that. If I wanted a machine that wasn't truely progressive I would just buy a SS and forget about it. Why would he refer to the 550B as not being a real progressive press anyway???

Colorado4Wheel
10-02-2011, 19:48
Because it doesn't auto index. It's just another one of the weird things in his write up. It's not like you can look in the dictionary and find a definition for "progressive reloading press". Don't worry about it.

Beanie-Bean
10-02-2011, 19:52
I already bought two manuals (Lee 2nd Ed. and Lyman 49) but can I depend on the site below for good data?

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I would trust the powder and bullet guys' information more than I would trust some internet dude's info. However, I must say that there are several internet dudes on this forum who encouraged me to start reloading sooner than later. Glad I did, and I'll never look at factory ammo the same, except for carry/SD loads.

At the Hodgdon site, you'll also get information for IMR and Winchester powders, too.

freakshow10mm
10-02-2011, 20:27
I'd stay away from 9mm major until you are a more experienced reloader.
Agree.

I personally would never even try that, I think it's excessive for that caliber.
I agree +P+ is unnecessary, however 9mm +P or Major is fine. There are plenty of powders and loads that will get you Major and be within +P pressure standards.


1) Your not buying 9Major now so don't try to start loading it.
Great point. You want 9mm hella-fast, buy a 357 SIG.


Edit: I reread your post. Just get the 650 with the casefeeder. A 550 is a mistake. Your wasting a lot of money now. You can afford the 650 and you will end up with one in less then a year and wonder why you wasted the money on a 550.
Get the 650 now, save up and get the casefeeder later. Skip the 550 altogether. It has its place but not in your situation.

fredj338
10-02-2011, 23:29
And I quote "a truely progressive", well S%#T!!!:rofl: I thought I had this figured out, looks like I almost made a 1000 dollar mistake. I guess since I seem to have the entire GT reloading forum getting my back on this (thanks very much by the way) I might as well get the 650 and if I have trouble I can just ask the questions on here that i need to to fix whatever problem I am having. I am SO glad you posted that. If I wanted a machine that wasn't truely progressive I would just buy a SS and forget about it. Why would he refer to the 550B as not being a real progressive press anyway???

Well the 550B is a true progressive, it is just manual indexing. The definition of progressive is you get one loaded round w/ each pull of the handle as the rounds "progress" around the shell plate. So whether manual or auto indexing, they are progressives.
I load on both, & like both machines for diff reasons. I bought the 650 because I wanted a case feeder & the higher volumn I get from that. The auto indexing is nice, but also a PITA at times, but is no real speed advantage over manual indexing. The fact you want a case feeder puts the 650 to the front of the line.
Best manuals for the handgun loader; Lyman #49 & Speer #14 hands down.

freakshow10mm
10-02-2011, 23:30
No case feeder: 550
Case feeder: 650
The best press on the market that isn't automated: 1050

Tpro
10-03-2011, 00:16
1) Your not buying 9Major now so don't try to start loading it. Give yourself some time before you start trying that. BUT, you can get a couple good load manuals and work up some safe 9mm loads that are on the upper end once you get the hang of the easy stuff. You need to go to Brian Enos Forums for that info. LOTS of good info there. But DON'T start trying to do that yet. Stay safe.

2) All your other questions are answered in a Lyman and many other reloading manuals.

3) Just get the press already. 550/650 it doesn't mater. Stop buying factory ammo.

Edit: I reread your post. Just get the 650 with the casefeeder. A 550 is a mistake. Your wasting a lot of money now. You can afford the 650 and you will end up with one in less then a year and wonder why you wasted the money on a 550.

That is a HORRIBLE choice. SOME say the 650 is not great for a new reloader. Let me ask you a basic question. 650 and LnL get compared all the time RIGHT? All the time. Yet you don't see Hornady or LnL users saying "Don't buy the LnL as your first press! Nope. Why not. Because it just doesn't mater. Brian Enos and his group are the ONLY ones who really say to start with a 550. But the reality is the 650 is just not the complicated. WHATEVER YOU DO. Do not buy the casefeeder for the 550. It sucks. It's HORRIBLE. The bowl works fine but the slider is a PITA. GET THE 650 if you want a casefeeder. 550+Casefeeder is just not a great setup and is much harder to setup properly then a 650 + Casefeeder. You are making a horrible choice. I have owned all the above. I know what I am talking about.

From Brian Enos himself.



Dillon 550 casefeeder is a PITA to adjust for multiple calibers. If your going to get a 550 get a 550 with no casefeeder. Learn on that. Sell it (you will because you want a casefeeder) and then get a 650. Total waste.


OP...PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT C4W IS TELLING YOU. IF YOU BUY A 550 YOU ARE SCREWING UP. It's hard to sit back and watch guys step on their dicks by not paying attention. BE just took back a 550 because my customer realized an auto indexing progressive is not that hard to use. Steve is right on the money here. Stop reading dumbed down stuff. If you can use a smart phone you can use a progressive. Get the 650 and spend less money in the future. You'll have a better press from the start. You can use it single stage, turret and progressive. The only ones who benefit are the press people because you spend more money. And the poor suckers who pay 80% of retail for used Dillon equipment. But that is a horse of a different feather.

All of what is written above by C4W is all correct. Don't go backwards and 2 months from now buy ANOTHER press because the 550 isn't what you need/want. I started on a progressive. got a customer who sent back a 550 to get a auto indexing press because it was so easy to use.

Ok, I've said all I'm going to say because (no offence here but I think it's true) the OP appears to be a little like a fart in a skillet. He's all over the place and can't be pinned down.

OP...relax. Order the 650. Take it slow. My guess is that in 500 rounds (or less) you will be loading progressively. You may not be banging out 800 rds/hour (speed comes with practice) but you should be able to do 400 rds/hour and not break a sweat. Get the 650. Journal your experience here on GT so other newbs can read how it went for you. It would be a benefit to GT reloading.

There. I'm done.

ron59
10-03-2011, 11:25
Mike.

You ARE getting great advice here. I have a 550. Don't buy one. Not because it's not good, but because you'll regret it in a few months. You'll be able to crank out lots more rounds with the 650 and casefeeder in shorter time.

Yes, Brian does say a 650 shouldn't be a first press... but I think that's just a very conservative statement. Realize, we have all kinds of people trying to get into reloading, some not as "handy" as others. The 650 is only slightly more complicated than the 550, primarily that it auto-indexes. Other than that... they're basically the same. Same dies that do the same thing.

What I WOULD suggest that you do at first when you get your 650.... set it up, but NOT the casefeeder. And I would load ONE piece of brass at a time at first. Watch it go around and see what happens to it. Remeasure the OAL and stuff until you're sure it's right. Only after you have everything dialed and feel comfortable with yourself and the press do you want to start with a case in every station. Do that, and you'll be good to go.

Shadyscott69
10-03-2011, 11:33
Are you talking about USPSA 9mm MAJOR? If so, that is far beyond what 9+p+.

As far as 40 Lite, I am loading 3.9 gr of VV N320 with a PD 180 JHP @1.135. You can get the same load with 3.2 Clays. It is like cheating from my G22. The sights track very well and almost no recoil. Less recoil than standard 9mm.

If you are looking for load data for gaming, there is no better source than the Brian Enos forum.

Tpro
10-03-2011, 12:03
ron59 hits the nail on the head: Mike.

You ARE getting great advice here. I have a 550. Don't buy one. Not because it's not good, but because you'll regret it in a few months. You'll be able to crank out lots more rounds with the 650 and casefeeder in shorter time.

From a Dillon user. This is exactly what is being said, and you will save money in the long run.

And this: What I WOULD suggest that you do at first when you get your 650.... set it up, but NOT the casefeeder. And I would load ONE piece of brass at a time at first. Watch it go around and see what happens to it. Remeasure the OAL and stuff until you're sure it's right. Only after you have everything dialed and feel comfortable with yourself and the press do you want to start with a case in every station. Do that, and you'll be good to go.

Your speed will come with practice. Load good ammo first and then speed will come naturally. You'll be surprised how fast you will pick it up.

FWIW...BE's web site is exactly why I hate the web (my customers constantly gripe because I don't have one...prolly never will) because BE doesn't know you from Adam. So he has a basic, very general guide line to follow to simplify his day. It keeps him off the phone. Brian Enos (as an example) would open himself to huge issues if he had posted on his web site for everyone to start with a 650, or 1050. He would be exposed to lawsuits, returns and a customer base that dried up quickly.

Obviously, there are plenty of people who can't use or will never need a progressive press. They don't load enough to justify the purchase, or, they can't do that many things simultaneously, so they are better off with something different.

As ron59 said, you are getting good advice.

fredj338
10-03-2011, 13:05
There is no right answer. Very few shooters need a 650 & case feeder. Seriously, if you only shoot 250rds a week, the 650 is way more press than you need or maybe even want, & if that is split among 3-4 diff calibers, way overkill. So for all of us that have a 650, yeah, great machine, but telling a noob he should buy this over that or he won't be happy w/ anything but a 650 & case feeder is just not true. I know lots of guys happily loading away on their 550s. I did it for 25yrs, still use one. The 650 is nice, but for larger production runs of one or two calibers IMO. There are few absolutes when it comes to guns & reloading. Everyones needs are diff.

freakshow10mm
10-03-2011, 13:50
Are you talking about USPSA 9mm MAJOR? If so, that is far beyond what 9+p+.
No it's not. Stop spreading this falsehood please. Thanks.:wavey:

Shadyscott69
10-03-2011, 15:02
No it's not. Stop spreading this falsehood please. Thanks.:wavey:


The guys I know shooting 9Major are loading far above any +P+ I have ever seen. Some of the major guys are getting a PF over 180 with a 115 gr bullet. That is 1600 fps or better. I would be surprised if most plastic guns can take that for very long, if at all.
I know there is no standard for +P+ so I suppose that could be what you mean. I will defer to your much greater knowledge on this issue though.

Why do you say it's not?

Colorado4Wheel
10-03-2011, 15:06
Sierra (I think) tested some 9Major Stuff and it was nearly rifle pressure.

Shadyscott69
10-03-2011, 15:55
Sierra (I think) tested some 9Major Stuff and it was nearly rifle pressure.


Quite a few guys are using severely compressed loads.

fredj338
10-03-2011, 17:23
Quite a few guys are using severely compressed loads.

A compressed load means nothing. You can could not compress enough 2400 in the small 9mm case to even make std pressure ammo. So it has to do with what powder you are using. If a guy is getting 1600fps w/ a 115gr bullet in a 9mm, it would have to be way over pressure & from a 5" bbl as well. I doubt there are any really safe 9mm major loads going that hot, but that is JMHO. Just because the case doesn't come apart doesn't mean it's safe, it means they are lucky.:dunno:

Shadyscott69
10-03-2011, 17:38
A compressed load means nothing. You can could not compress enough 2400 in the small 9mm case to even make std pressure ammo. So it has to do with what powder you are using. If a guy is getting 1600fps w/ a 115gr bullet in a 9mm, it would have to be way over pressure & from a 5" bbl as well. I doubt there are any really safe 9mm major loads going that hot, but that is JMHO. Just because the case doesn't come apart doesn't mean it's safe, it means they are lucky.:dunno:


A lot of VV350 and HS6. 8+grains compressed. Some are 6" guns. There are some crazy bastages running those hand grenades, I mean guns.

Colorado4Wheel
10-03-2011, 18:06
Open are the only guys in USPSA shooting 9mm Major. They are not shooting effective 6 inch's barrels. It may look that long but it's got ports that bleed off powder and velocity. Their effective barrel length before the port is the more important number. Basically, they are getting Major from a barrel shorter then 5 inch's usually. The people running 6 inch's barrels in Limited don't have ports but they also need at least a .40 cal bullet to make major. They they don't shoot 9mm for major but for minor. Open is the only class allowing 9mm to score as Major.

mike g35
10-03-2011, 18:48
I don't know anything about the 9 major but after reading this there are 2 things I can say. One, I would be using the 9 major load in an open gun with an extremely efficient 4 port comp on it and two, there's NO WAY I will be trying to load to 9 major now anyway. I will be using my newest and most expensive Carver racegun to date and I will not run the chance of blowing it up. Not to mention its a one of a kind gun, its not like I can go to my local gunshop and pick up another one. But with all of that being said I do have a G34 with a 3port comp that I can test some hotter loads in before running them through my G17 "Nova".
What I need isn't a 9 major, the load data I need is a high pressure 9mm load that still stays within safe pressure standards. Any hot 9mm load will work but my guns seem to favor 115gr and 124gr bullets. The compensators on my guns are more efficient when using high pressure loads so the 9 major even though its cool isn't needed.

Colorado4Wheel
10-03-2011, 19:11
What you want is a powder that creates a lot of gas to work the comp. Search 9major on Brian Enos forums. Just pick the same powder and load it within safe limits. It's a start. Basically you want a slow powder. EVERYTHING you need to know is in a Load Manual. You just need to learn the process of picking the right powder.

GO BUY YOUR 650 for crying out loud.

freakshow10mm
10-03-2011, 22:26
The guys I know shooting 9Major are loading far above any +P+ I have ever seen.
Have their loads been pressure tested? Then it isn't known for sure.

Some of the major guys are getting a PF over 180 with a 115 gr bullet. That is 1600 fps or better.
The old Major floor was a bit below that. 115gr @ 1600fps is 184PF. That can be done under 40,000psi.

I would be surprised if most plastic guns can take that for very long, if at all.
The chamber takes the pressure, the frame takes the recoil forces. The 10mm Auto produces more recoil than any 9mm and the Glock 20/29 does just fine shooting tens of thousands of 220+ PF ammunition.

I know there is no standard for +P+ so I suppose that could be what you mean. I will defer to your much greater knowledge on this issue though.

Why do you say it's not?
I've had my ammunition pressure tested by Hodgdon's internal ballistics lab. My 9mm Major ammunition shoots 173 PF and is 36,850psi.

Quite a few guys are using severely compressed loads.
Some compressed loads are lower pressure than uncompressed loads.