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xXGearheadXx
10-04-2011, 14:33
Alright gurus, I think i've gotten to the point where i've got the "basics" of reloading down...I think i've got a good reliable recipe, and now i'd like to get better accuracy out of my reloads. Current setup is as follows:

Dillon XL650 with 9mm dillon dies, reloading 124gr Montana gold JHPs with 3.8 grains of bullseye to a COL of 1.145 (mic reads +/- .003 that length on all loads of my latest batch, a couple outside that range were rejected) Getting an average of ~1050 fps, a little over what i need to meet power floor. low velocity was 1028 and high was 1078. (a little wide i think)

Currently, i DO sort casings for test and competition loads, and plan to sort bullets by weight on my next batch. The powder measure on the dillon is incredibly accurate, never deviating from my set charge.

Does anyone have any tips for more accurate loads. My reloads don't seem quite as accurate as the factories i've shot for the last 5 years. Shooting competition has made me pretty mechanical/consistent with my grip and trigger control, and i can usually feel it when i pull one...so i don't think it's all me. Any tips would be much appreciated.

PCJim
10-04-2011, 14:37
Interestingly, I load 3.9gr BE under a 125gr LCN, 1.14 COL, and get the same velocities thru my P226 that you are with a jacketed bullet. You didn't mention the firearm.

What kind of accuracy are you getting now, at 25yds rested?

ron59
10-04-2011, 17:01
Maybe boost your load up a bit.

Assuming 1050fps, that's 130PF which isn't too low, but when I was loading my 147s to 125pf, accuracy was horrible compared to the 132-133ish they're at now. Maybe take them up to 135PF and see what you get.

Boxerglocker
10-04-2011, 17:06
Maybe boost your load up a bit.

Assuming 1050fps, that's 130PF which isn't too low, but when I was loading my 147s to 125pf, accuracy was horrible compared to the 132-133ish they're at now. Maybe take them up to 135PF and see what you get.

:agree: another thing to check is crimp, make sure it's not excessive.

Frank V
10-04-2011, 17:17
The Speer #14 manual lists 3.9grs of Bullseye as a starting load with a velocity of 966. It lists 4.4grs as max. with 1059fps. You are getting a bit more velocity than the starting load. Sometimes as you go up in powder charge you will reach the place your gun likes the best & still not go above suggested loads.
Do you clean your cases? I'm betting you do. If they have been used a lot trimming might help with consistant crimps (taper, not roll). I've found some cases WW to not size enough to hold the bullet firmly, but not every WW case so I'm guessing it's not a across the board problem.
A trick I've used is to use the bbl as a OAL case gauge when setting my seating depth if you want to load for a specific gun. If the loaded case drops in just to the back of the chamber & doesn't stick out or drop too deeply, I've found usually they will function properly. I'm betting from your post, though you pretty well have the case selection/preperation down pretty well.
Part of the fun of reloading is developing just the proper load for your gun. Keep at it, I'm thinking you'll get just the right load for your gun.
Good shooting!
Frank

Zombie Steve
10-04-2011, 19:07
Finding the powder charge your gun likes will be 95% of it for loading pistol. This alone should get you more accurate than most factory fodder. If it's for gun games, keep in mind it might not be as light as you'd like it to be. Sounds like you're getting into OCD range weighing brass and bullets, but that will help too. It will be down the path of diminishing returns vs the time you'll put into it, but it will help.

I haven't seen anyone mention squaring up your dies. Small detail, but it will help.

fredj338
10-04-2011, 19:41
FIrst lets establish your accuracy requirements. SOme guys are happy w/ the A zone on an IDPA target @ 50ft, others want gold ball accuarcy. The MG bullet will easily print sub 2" groups @ 50ft. Try diff powders, BE is liked by many but not always the most accurate. Diff bullets will like diff powders, diff guns will show preferences. A gun/load combo may not be accurate @ lower pressures/vel then groups shrink to half by upping the vel 50fps.
As to your technique, you'll never get 1"/50ft ammo shooting mixed fired brass. The neck tension is all over the place, one reason for the wide vel swings, the other being low load density. The softer you try to make some powders run, the poorer the acuracy in some calibers. As an example, I could never get W231 to shoot really well w/ lead bullets in my BHP. When I switched to Unique, groups were dramatically smaller. SO it may take some experimentation. Why I never buy more than 1# of a new powder.

Zombie Steve
10-04-2011, 22:07
Good points as always, fred.

Anybody want a half pound of Blue Dot?

fredj338
10-04-2011, 22:45
Good points as always, fred.

Anybody want a half pound of Blue Dot?
How is that 338-06 coming Steve?

Zombie Steve
10-04-2011, 22:51
It's on the shelf until next year, I think. I still want to do it, but disposable income is pretty tight for now. Wife just started grad school. Ouch.

xXGearheadXx
10-05-2011, 10:29
Thanks for the feedback so far gentlemen. I guess a few extra data points are needed:

1. These loads are being run out of a G17 gen4 (4.5" barrel of course). Test loads i've fired through my teammates G34 on average get ~20 fps more.

2. Crimp is enough to remove the bell from the casing, though i'll admit that where it's sitting now, i don't know if i can reduce it at all and still remove all of the bell, though i do know a quarter turn more and it will turn the top of the case into the bullet.

3. In regards to the casing, yes they are clean, and by sorting, i guess i should've mentioned i sort the aguilla brass (due to its ease of IDing among the others) from the rest and use it for test and comp loads. I don't mic and weigh the cases.

4. My accuracy goal is to make loads that are as accurate as the 124gr Aguillas i've grown accustomed to shooting while reducing the pop. The aguillas are running ~1250 fps so i don't know if this can be achieved.

Onto the next round of questions:

1. do you find bulkier powders that fill up the casing to be more accurate and consistent? If so, what are a few powders that fit the bill? I have some accurate #5, anyone have experience with this powder?

2. For those that use both fast and slow(er) burning powders, which will reduce recoil more? The guy that got me started loading recomended fast burners (i.e. ac#2, bullseye, vv 310/320) for reducing recoil...would you agree with this?

3. Is my velocity range normal?

fredj338
10-05-2011, 11:27
Thanks for the feedback so far gentlemen. I guess a few extra data points are needed:

1. These loads are being run out of a G17 gen4 (4.5" barrel of course). Test loads i've fired through my teammates G34 on average get ~20 fps more.

2. Crimp is enough to remove the bell from the casing, though i'll admit that where it's sitting now, i don't know if i can reduce it at all and still remove all of the bell, though i do know a quarter turn more and it will turn the top of the case into the bullet.

3. In regards to the casing, yes they are clean, and by sorting, i guess i should've mentioned i sort the aguilla brass (due to its ease of IDing among the others) from the rest and use it for test and comp loads. I don't mic and weigh the cases.

4. My accuracy goal is to make loads that are as accurate as the 124gr Aguillas i've grown accustomed to shooting while reducing the pop. The aguillas are running ~1250 fps so i don't know if this can be achieved.

Onto the next round of questions:

1. do you find bulkier powders that fill up the casing to be more accurate and consistent? If so, what are a few powders that fit the bill? I have some accurate #5, anyone have experience with this powder?

2. For those that use both fast and slow(er) burning powders, which will reduce recoil more? The guy that got me started loading recomended fast burners (i.e. ac#2, bullseye, vv 310/320) for reducing recoil...would you agree with this?

3. Is my velocity range normal?

Again, unless you track the brass you shoot & separate by manuf & times fired, you'll never get match grade results. Again, what is you accuracy requirment? Bullets are the first place to start. You can't get match grade accuracy w/ cheaper bullets. Then uniform cases. You don't need to mic or weigh or even trim, just get the same brass & keep it segregated by times fired.
As to recoil impulse, yes, faster powders have a very, very slight reduction in recoil for the same vel level if using medium burners, but it's very subjective. MOst find switching to a heavier bullet moving slower "feel" softer in recoil. You may want to head in that direction. If you are shooting 2" or less @ 50ft, then you don't need a new load. Yes, you may find one that cuts that in half, but at the expensve of more recoil. Unique under several diff 124gr bullets has given me sub 1 1/2" groups @ 50ft, several @ 1", but they are moving along @ 1150fps+, maybe more recoil than you want.:dunno: Good medium burners to try are Unique, WSF & Universal. All give good accuracy w/ jacketed or plated.

ron59
10-05-2011, 14:41
4. My accuracy goal is to make loads that are as accurate as the 124gr Aguillas i've grown accustomed to shooting while reducing the pop. The aguillas are running ~1250 fps so i don't know if this can be achieved.



1250fps for a 124gr bullet is 155 PF. That's pretty hot.
You said your load for 124gr bullet is only 1050, for 130PF. That's a huge difference, would think you could find a middle ground that would make you happy.

I still think if you boost your velocity to 1090 or so, giving 135PF, your accuracy would tighten up and you will also have reduced the "pop" you mentioned.

To *really* reduce the pop, start loading 147gr bullets at 915fps. More expensive, sure... but sure is nice.

xXGearheadXx
10-06-2011, 12:57
Yeah, Aguillas are pretty hot. Pretty clean too. But that's what the chrono read. I made a test batch of 10 about a month ago with AC#2 and a shorter COL that was around 1300 fps :wow:

Point noted on the 147 grainers. I'll probably order a couple hundred for test batches to compare "pop" to the 124s i'm using right now.

I ran my most recent batch (recipe listed above) last night. From the rest i managed roughly 2"(eyeball measurement, distance between 2 widest shots) groups at 15yds...the first 5 i fired i winged one of them, but the second group of 5 was just fine. They hit about 1-1.5" above my point of aim...more than easy enough to compensate for. Compared to those same aguillas it felt like shooting .380 out of a heavy gun.

After that, we ran an IDPA classifier(just for kicks...we run it from time to time to gauge improvement)...managed 113 seconds and change (including time down)...cut 16 seconds off my July Classifier. I guess i'm content.

Poppa Bear
10-08-2011, 20:49
Try shortening your OAL. 1.145 is pretty long for a 9MM. Keep the charge the same but try reducing your OAL to 1.135, 1.125, and then 1.115 in 10 round batches. I would bet that around the 1.115 to 1.125 range you will start to get much better accuracy.

As always chronograph your rounds as you go and keep an eye out for pressure signs but you should still be under max load even at 1.115 OAL.

engineermike
10-09-2011, 06:47
Yep, your C.O.L. is too long. My load manuals show a max C.O.L. of 1.135 for the 9mm and I believe SAAMI also shows a max of 1.135. (Just going from memory and my memory fails sometimes :cool:)

ron59
10-09-2011, 10:34
Yep, your C.O.L. is too long. My load manuals show a max C.O.L. of 1.135 for the 9mm and I believe SAAMI also shows a max of 1.135. (Just going from memory and my memory fails sometimes :cool:)

Yeah, your memory is WAY bad.

I think it is more like 1.169" for max.

fredj338
10-09-2011, 10:51
Yep, your C.O.L. is too long. My load manuals show a max C.O.L. of 1.135 for the 9mm and I believe SAAMI also shows a max of 1.135. (Just going from memory and my memory fails sometimes :cool:)

OAL, ALWAYS BULLET & GUN SPECIFIC. Regardless of what the loading manual says, the bullet has to fit your gun, that varies a lot w/ diff bullet styles. So the SAAMI 1.169" OAL is just that, a max for most guns. Some bullets/guns will take that, most won't. Fit the bullet to your gun, work the load up from just off starting average data.

xXGearheadXx
10-17-2011, 19:09
Gotta say this is a pretty nice recipe...after 600 rds. There may be a little tweaking in the future but so far no probs out of the g17. no failures, good accuracy, and kick is WAY lower than what the teammates are shooting. good stuff.

Kentguy
10-20-2011, 16:58
xXgearheadXx,

It sounds to me that concerning working up accurate loads, you are on the right track, along with the good advice of the others who have posted here, I have no doubt that you will come up with some very accurate loads. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
The only advice I can offer is, along with your loading techniques, continue to improve on your shooting techniques as well. The bottom line... A great cartridge in a great gun (like a Glock) is still subject to the person pulling the trigger! <o:p></o:p>
An Old timer once told me that Accuracy begins and ends with you. I have found a ton of truth in that piece of wisdom. Good luck

noylj
10-21-2011, 14:48
1) Load 10 rounds of each bullet/powder combination. Five to have the same head stamp and five to be mixed. Determine if there is any statistical justification to do more than required.
2) Sort bullets by weight. Take the 10% lightest, 10% heaviest, and 10% from the medium weight. Make up loads (all with the same headstamp per powder charge combination) with a set with the lightest bullets, another set with the heaviest bullets, another set with the median weight bullets, and a final set where you mix the three sets and randomly use the bullets. This will help you determine if there is any statistical justification to do more than simply use the batch of bullets at random.
3) Use charge weight increments of 0.3 or 0.5gn.
4) COL should be controlled to 0.003"
5) You are NOT shooting a benchrest rifle and all the "games" they play will not have ANY effect on your pistol.
6) Test Power Pistol, Silhouette, and N320 for accuray with mid-range to near-Max loads. You can try Clays and Solo 1000 for light loads.
7) If you are doing action shooting, you may find that the number of rounds required will make you ease up on your "need" to control everything.
8) Instead of living under "it couldn't hurt," start going under the assumption "anything, even consistency, may have a positive or negative effect and I will test to discover what is important." After decades as an Engineer, I learned NEVER to say "it couldn't hurt," because many time it does hurt.

norton
10-21-2011, 17:11
Just my 2 cents
Not saying that loads can't make a difference. But you have to remove or at least minimize the human element first to detemine which loads are the most accurate.

fredj338
10-21-2011, 18:01
Just my 2 cents
Not saying that loads can't make a difference. But you have to remove or at least minimize the human element first to detemine which loads are the most accurate.

That is a given, but accuracy requirements vary from shooter to shooter. Many are happy w/ handgun ammo that "groups" into 3" @ 21ft!!! For me, that doesn't even cut it @ 75ft. So first one needs to establish their ability. I use factory ammo as a benchmark. If my handloads beat good factory, I am on the right track.:supergrin:

norton
10-21-2011, 18:38
That is a given, but accuracy requirements vary from shooter to shooter. Many are happy w/ handgun ammo that "groups" into 3" @ 21ft!!! For me, that doesn't even cut it @ 75ft. So first one needs to establish their ability. I use factory ammo as a benchmark. If my handloads beat good factory, I am on the right track.:supergrin:

Fred
I look at shooting like many other sports. Whats between your ears probably trumps the effect of anything else. Without a baseline that eliminates the human effect, your results may be due to what you expect to happen.
Shooting offhand, I would be thrilled with 3" groups at 25 yards. Especially if I could do it time after time.

RWBlue
10-21-2011, 20:07
Thoughts before I read any other posts.

1. Be consistent in what you are doing. Consistent components, consistent loading procedures,
2. Jacketed bullets have treated me well in the past.
3. Powders that fill the case are usually better for rifles. I haven't tested this in pistols.
4. Keep impeccable notes and develop a testing procedure which is consistent.

I am a not a volume reloader. I reload as experiments. And I am now at a location where I can not reload. :-(

fredj338
10-22-2011, 01:37
Fred
I look at shooting like many other sports. Whats between your ears probably trumps the effect of anything else. Without a baseline that eliminates the human effect, your results may be due to what you expect to happen.
Shooting offhand, I would be thrilled with 3" groups at 25 yards. Especially if I could do it time after time.

Granted, I am just saying that everyone has a diff requirement or expectation. If someone came on here & was thrilled w/ their ammo shooting 3" groups @ 21ftm I would not be seeign the joy there but everyone is diff. So when someone is looking for accuracy out of a given load or gun, I always ask what they expect. I can give a poor shooter a 1" @ 25yd gun & they wouldn't know the diff.:dunno: