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fodder1
10-05-2011, 14:48
I know this has been discussed many times before, and not sure if this has been posted. But, this was an interesting Gun digest article (http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-guns/buckshot-overkill-for-the-home-defense-shotgun?et_mid=520862&rid=230072749) in relation to 00 Buck for HD. Depending on who is in your home, some may want to re-think their HD ammo.


Buckshot: Overkill for the Home Defense Shotgun?

Scott Wagner | Sep 27, 2011


In interior (not mixed interior/exterior) home defense situations, buckshot and slugs are totally out of the question, unless perhaps you are using them in a .410 shotgun.


At seven yards, the Remington 8-pellet reduced recoil round puts an excellent, tight pattern on this bad guy target. Large hole in suspect's hand is from the wad. Point of aim is about right for a shotgun-definitely “minute of felon.”

In a shooting we had at my Sheriff’s Office several years ago, the offender, a man of average stature, was shot in the area of the navel square on with a Remington® 870 12 gauge pump loaded with Remington Reduced Recoil 8-pellet (yes, eight pellets – it eliminates the one stray pellet normally encountered in 00 buck shot patterns) 00 Buckshot load at a distance of about seven yards.

This load, by the way is excellent, one of the very best law enforcement loads, and one of the tightest patterning loads I have ever shot in any shotgun. It increases the safe usage of 12 gauge buckshot well out to 30 yards, and is great for headshots at seven to 10 yards, or a little further out in improved cylinder choke barrels.

Anyway all eight pellets blew through the suspect’s intestines and impacted in the dirt on the other side of him. He stopped his threatening actions but did not die. This means that if you hit an offender square on (facing you) with 00 buckshot, even with a lower velocity reduced recoil load, the pellets can and do punch right out the back, endangering others.

Remember, the load is called “buckshot” because it was originally used for killing large animals, like buck deer, and in places like India sometimes tiger. It is powerful stuff. Legendary in terms of its killing and stopping power, buckshot is the shotgun round that people fear the most.

Most criminals are too dense to realize that they face an equal amount of damage, maybe even more, due to shredding effect of all those little pellets from a close range load of AA Trap and Skeet as they do from the 00. However, don’t be misled. These loads can and will punch right through drywall at close range. Remember, they only spread one inch per yard, and at close range it is a lot like getting hit with a single, solid projectile.


LOADS LIKE the Remington Reduced Recoil 8-pellet round are more than capable of hostage rescue shots at seven yards and out.

If you have overpenetration concerns, you may want to closely examine whether a shotgun is the best weapon to choose. A lower powered handgun, which can still punch through a wall, but is only putting a single projectile at a time through it (assuming you are missing your intended target), may work out better for you, especially in an apartment where there are neighbors close at hand. Even then, you should limit your handgun ammo selection to pre-fragmented rounds like the Glaser Safety Slug or Magsafe.

For general home and property defense, where over-penetration is not a major concern, buckshot of various types and sizes is probably the best choice, not only for two-legged predators, but for large four-legged predators at close range as well. Those trap and skeet loads run out of steam pretty fast in terms of effectiveness over distance.

The law enforcement community dumped the use of #4 buckshot as a duty load and went back to 00 buck when we began finding out that #4 wasn’t giving the desired penetration. Rifled slugs are mostly to be avoided unless you need the longer range and penetration a rifled slug affords, or if you live soemwhere like Alaska, where your four legged predator problem involves large animals like bear, rather than the coyote of the Midwest.

Yep, for Alaskan defense, 3- to 3-1/2-inch magnum rifled slugs, and a six to nine round magazine capacity sounds like an ideal combination.

This article is an excerpt from Gun Digest Tactical Shotgun.

WoodenPlank
10-05-2011, 15:57
This is the part I take exception to...

Most criminals are too dense to realize that they face an equal amount of damage, maybe even more, due to shredding effect of all those little pellets from a close range load of AA Trap and Skeet as they do from the 00. However, don’t be misled. These loads can and will punch right through drywall at close range. Remember, they only spread one inch per yard, and at close range it is a lot like getting hit with a single, solid projectile.

First, how many times does the whole "bird shot acts like a single projectile" myth need to be debunked? It doesn't happen.

Bird shot will produce horrific wounds, but they will be exceptionally shallow, and the pellets lack the mass needed to reach CNS structures, or to penetrate the ribs and sternum. The perp might stop from pain alone, but that is an awfully big MIGHT when your life is on the line.

If over penetration is your concern, bird shot is NOT the answer.

ScrappyDoo
10-05-2011, 15:58
I don't know stuff about stuff but - I do know, at 7 yards, not only will 00 Buck blast a bad guy dead, it will probably carry the bad guy up in the air into the wall , crashing thru the sheetrock. I mean you're talking about the actual bad guy overpenetrating into the wall, not just the 00 buckshot. so 8 pellets (again why are we using 8 shot 00 Buck, please? I'm not really in the least satisfied with the answer and could write a doctoral dissertation on that subject alone but, please retort.) Went "blasting thru his intestines, but he did not die" .... AT 7 YARDS......


Say that line a few times slowly then allow it to sink in. And see how you feel about it.



So we are now saying, you ain'[t safe unless you got 9 3 1/2" rounds of whatever, magnun rifled slugs. Wow. You trying to rob one of those bulletproof glass windowed-surrounded banks now?


I'm quite content with my M930SPX and regular old joe six pack, 00 Buck 2 3/4". Absolutely content.

ScrappyDoo
10-05-2011, 16:00
wooden, Just because I appreciate it so much how you said it, the whole "bird shot acts as a mass up close" is a matter of science. It's high school level physics but still that is a tough subject. I'm real lucky, I got a great education and was regarded as pretty smart and if it wasn't for booze I'd probably have a doctorate by now, but STILL I fail miserably trying to explain the science of this to those who are either unable or unwilling to understand... It's NOT A MATTER OF OPINION, no matter how much they want it to be - IT'S SCIENCE. 100x little hits of birdshot bb's do not add up to the force of say 9 big 00 shots. etc. It's so simple yet so complicated, I gave up trying in 2010.

WoodenPlank
10-05-2011, 16:11
I don't know stuff about stuff but - I do know, at 7 yards, not only will 00 Buck blast a bad guy dead, it will probably carry the bad guy up in the air into the wall , crashing thru the sheetrock. I mean you're talking about the actual bad guy overpenetrating into the wall, not just the 00 buckshot. so 8 pellets (again why are we using 8 shot 00 Buck, please? I'm not really in the least satisfied with the answer and could write a doctoral dissertation on that subject alone but, please retort.) Went "blasting thru his intestines, but he did not die" .... AT 7 YARDS......


Say that line a few times slowly then allow it to sink in. And see how you feel about it.



So we are now saying, you ain'[t safe unless you got 9 3 1/2" rounds of whatever, magnun rifled slugs. Wow. You trying to rob one of those bulletproof glass windowed-surrounded banks now?


I'm quite content with my M930SPX and regular old joe six pack, 00 Buck 2 3/4". Absolutely content.

Actually, gut wounds are often survivable if the shootee is gotten to the hospital quickly. I used to know a cop that was shot under the vest at an upward angle, and nearly bled out. He lost a few feet of intestine, but he was rushed to the hospital in time and survived.

I bet the incident in the article would have ended differently with about 6" higher shot placement.

wooden, Just because I appreciate it so much how you said it, the whole "bird shot acts as a mass up close" is a matter of science. It's high school level physics but still that is a tough subject. I'm real lucky, I got a great education and was regarded as pretty smart and if it wasn't for booze I'd probably have a doctorate by now, but STILL I fail miserably trying to explain the science of this to those who are either unable or unwilling to understand... It's NOT A MATTER OF OPINION, no matter how much they want it to be - IT'S SCIENCE. 100x little hits of birdshot bb's do not add up to the force of say 9 big 00 shots. etc. It's so simple yet so complicated, I gave up trying in 2010.

At point blank range, the pellets will still be in a tight group, sure. At 7 yards? No way. Also, they will not behave as a solid on impact, they will behave as a large group of very small objects - much closer to a fluid than a solid. The penetration of bird shot is still almost totally determined by the individual mass of the pellets, not the total mass of the whole. The only exception is when a pellet closely follows the crush cavity of another pellet immediately in front of it in the shot column, thereby giving it a very small percentage of extra penetration.

How's that explanation sound for ya? :supergrin:

VinnieD
10-05-2011, 19:07
This article first argues that 00 buck failed to stop an attacker, then calls it overkill, then insists on a lighter load. Poppycock.

GAFinch
10-05-2011, 19:33
This article first argues that 00 buck failed to stop an attacker, then calls it overkill, then insists on a lighter load. Poppycock.

Then says how police stopped using a lighter load due to inadequate penetration. I'm confused.

Berto
10-05-2011, 19:51
Whatever. I'll stick with buckshot, 00.

AA#5
10-05-2011, 20:13
I stay with 00 Buck because I have no way of predicting what distance I may have to shoot. I've patterned my "Vang Comp 870 on paper at 7 & 15 yards & I know what to expect.

B Coyote
10-05-2011, 22:54
One commenter (FMD) hit the nail on the head about that article.

bc

Alaskapopo
10-05-2011, 23:30
This is the part I take exception to...



First, how many times does the whole "bird shot acts like a single projectile" myth need to be debunked? It doesn't happen.

Bird shot will produce horrific wounds, but they will be exceptionally shallow, and the pellets lack the mass needed to reach CNS structures, or to penetrate the ribs and sternum. The perp might stop from pain alone, but that is an awfully big MIGHT when your life is on the line.

If over penetration is your concern, bird shot is NOT the answer.

+1
Bird shot is for birds not for defense, that is unless you are worried about birds attacking you.
Pat

WayaX
10-05-2011, 23:31
While I didn't really like the article, I think that shotguns are a terrible choice for home defense. You are responsible for every piece of shot you fire. And another common myth about the shotgun is that you don't really have to aim it. That's just setting people up for disaster.

And the idea of birdshot acting as a single large projectile is totally bunk.

WayaX
10-05-2011, 23:32
+1
Bird shot is for birds not for defense, that is unless you are worried about birds attacking you.
Pat

Hitchcock comes to mind.

Alaskapopo
10-05-2011, 23:33
[QUOTE=WoodenPlank;18005042]Actually, gut wounds are often survivable if the shootee is gotten to the hospital quickly. I used to know a cop that was shot under the vest at an upward angle, and nearly bled out. He lost a few feet of intestine, but he was rushed to the hospital in time and survived.

QUOTE]

So true. I don't have the cite but I read a stat once saying 75% of people shot with pistols survive and 75% of those shot with long guns die. I have only had to shoot bears in self defense but I can tell you that where you hit them matters far far more than what you hit them with.
pat

Alaskapopo
10-05-2011, 23:34
While I didn't really like the article, I think that shotguns are a terrible choice for home defense. You are responsible for every piece of shot you fire. And another common myth about the shotgun is that you don't really have to aim it. That's just setting people up for disaster.

And the idea of birdshot acting as a single large projectile is totally bunk.

So true I know of one guy who tried to commit suicide with a shotgun loaded with bird shot. He survived. His face looks like a pumpkin now but he lived with no life threatening injury.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-05-2011, 23:37
I don't know stuff about stuff but - I do know, at 7 yards, not only will 00 Buck blast a bad guy dead, it will probably carry the bad guy up in the air into the wall , crashing thru the sheetrock. I mean you're talking about the actual bad guy overpenetrating into the wall, not just the 00 buckshot. so 8 pellets (again why are we using 8 shot 00 Buck, please? I'm not really in the least satisfied with the answer and could write a doctoral dissertation on that subject alone but, please retort.) Went "blasting thru his intestines, but he did not die" .... AT 7 YARDS......


Say that line a few times slowly then allow it to sink in. And see how you feel about it.



So we are now saying, you ain'[t safe unless you got 9 3 1/2" rounds of whatever, magnun rifled slugs. Wow. You trying to rob one of those bulletproof glass windowed-surrounded banks now?


I'm quite content with my M930SPX and regular old joe six pack, 00 Buck 2 3/4". Absolutely content.

That is completely false. Firearm projectiles do not have the power to send people flying through the air. This is an invention of Hollywood. The best you can hope for is to hit the CNS and have the threat crumple right there but most of the time death does not come that fast.
Pat

fodder1
10-06-2011, 09:10
My reason behind posting this was not to start a 00 Buck vs. "any other load" debate, I think that has been done to death. When I read this, it made me re-evaluate the physical details of where I might use a Shotgun in an HD situation.

As an example, outside my bedroom door, at a distance of 10-14 feet, are two other bedrooms with extremely precious cargo. This specific piece:


all eight pellets blew through the suspect’s intestines and impacted in the dirt on the other side of him[/I]

made me think about what could happen. For this same reason, I don't load +P handgun ammo for HD. I don't need the extra velocity at the distances it would be used.

The intent, is to make people THINK about their own specific situation, and not use loads just because someone told them to, or the FBI does, or Glock Talk said so, etc...

We should take the responsible path and ensure we reduce even the slightest chance of hurting what we are attempting to protect. Agree with it, don't agree with it...it's your choice. But, I do hope people will think about, and re-evaluate, their plan. If 00 Buck fits the bill, great. If not, you may need to figure out what does.

RYNOCG201
10-06-2011, 09:11
Whatever. I'll stick with buckshot, 00.

Me Too

VZ1600
10-06-2011, 11:23
I don't know stuff about stuff but - I do know, at 7 yards, not only will 00 Buck blast a bad guy dead, it will probably carry the bad guy up in the air into the wall , crashing thru the sheetrock.

Ummm.....no.

Sorry Scrappy, but maybe it's time to lay off the John Woo movies huh? Newton's 3rd law disputes your post.

Newton's 3rd Law: "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions"

So everytime you fire your 930 SPX do you fly a few feet backwards through the air? No? Hmmmm, then I highly doubt the bad guy will either.

Btw, you did mention "high school level physics" in another post in this thread. Newton's 3rd Law was taught in HS science class. At least it was at my HS. :upeyes:

Alaskapopo
10-06-2011, 12:03
My reason behind posting this was not to start a 00 Buck vs. "any other load" debate, I think that has been done to death. When I read this, it made me re-evaluate the physical details of where I might use a Shotgun in an HD situation.

As an example, outside my bedroom door, at a distance of 10-14 feet, are two other bedrooms with extremely precious cargo. This specific piece:



made me think about what could happen. For this same reason, I don't load +P handgun ammo for HD. I don't need the extra velocity at the distances it would be used.
The intent, is to make people THINK about their own specific situation, and not use loads just because someone told them to, or the FBI does, or Glock Talk said so, etc...

We should take the responsible path and ensure we reduce even the slightest chance of hurting what we are attempting to protect. Agree with it, don't agree with it...it's your choice. But, I do hope people will think about, and re-evaluate, their plan. If 00 Buck fits the bill, great. If not, you may need to figure out what does.

If you are using hollow point ammuntion adding more velocity decreases penetration and increases expansion. Only if you are using non expanding ammunition like ball does adding more velocity always increase penetration.
pat

off road
10-06-2011, 12:06
Went "blasting thru his intestines, but he did not die" .... AT 7 YARDS......

Say that line a few times slowly then allow it to sink in. And see how you feel about it.

You seem upset that the perp didn't DIE? The objective is to stop them from killing you or harming someone else, period. So, if they don't happen to die in the process, that doesn't mean that the round failed somehow. All of us have been punched in the stomach, and know how it can double you over in pain....pretty minor compared to a load of 00, but very effective just the same. At one point I worked for the medical examiner of a large, populous southwestern county. The shotgun wounds we saw, were by far the worst you could imagine!

There are some stats out there that indicate that ~50% of one shot handgun stops, are actually PSYCHOLOGICAL stops where the individual was not mortally wounded, but thought things over and decided getting shot yet a second time might be ill advised.

WoodenPlank
10-06-2011, 14:13
Hitchcock comes to mind.

:rofl: No kidding.


Also, the whole idea of someone being shot and flying backwards CAN happen, but not from the impact of the projectile. It can happen due to involuntary muscle reflex (think: crouching attacker gets hit, and involuntarily tenses up leg muscles, causing him to jump backwards - giving the appearance of being blown back by the shot).

glockdoc21
10-06-2011, 15:29
People shot in the torso w/ buckshot or slugs generally die...walls shot with buckshot and slugs generally die too...life's tough that way. I have never seen anyone make it to the trauma bay that has been shot in the torse w/ buckshot (I have seen some birdshot...guy was sitting up talking to me). Buckshot is just devastating at HD ranges. A shot to the gut is going to evicerate someone, and they are not going to lost SOME bowel they are going to lose most of it.

off road
10-07-2011, 06:06
We had an officer killed by one buckshot pellet. He took cover standing sideways behind a tree. Was wearing a vest, but leaned out to take a look or a shoot....still standing sideways. One single pellet entered the armpit just above the vest, and penetrated the chest.

I don't recall if that wound immediately took him out of the fight, or how long it took him to expire.

purrrfect 10
10-07-2011, 06:47
You seem upset that the perp didn't DIE? The objective is to stop them from killing you or harming someone else, period. So, if they don't happen to die in the process, that doesn't mean that the round failed somehow. All of us have been punched in the stomach, and know how it can double you over in pain....pretty minor compared to a load of 00, but very effective just the same. At one point I worked for the medical examiner of a large, populous southwestern county. The shotgun wounds we saw, were by far the worst you could imagine!

There are some stats out there that indicate that ~50% of one shot handgun stops, are actually PSYCHOLOGICAL stops where the individual was not mortally wounded, but thought things over and decided getting shot yet a second time might be ill advised.

I have been taught if ever in a life or death situation, I will shoot as many rounds into the perp as i can until he hit the ground. giving no chance for return fire OR question later.

Me thinks inside my house even though I have an Ithaca deer slayer w/ 20" barrel 12g shotgun it is a bit on the bulky side, If it were my only protection 00 buck would surely be better than bird shot but 2 to 4 1oz slugs would be my choice. just saying

I will stick with my G 20 10mm for home defense

WoodenPlank
10-07-2011, 15:06
I have been taught if ever in a life or death situation, I will shoot as many rounds into the perp as i can until he hit the ground. giving no chance for return fire OR question later.

Me thinks inside my house even though I have an Ithaca deer slayer w/ 20" barrel 12g shotgun it is a bit on the bulky side, If it were my only protection 00 buck would surely be better than bird shot but 2 to 4 1oz slugs would be my choice. just saying

I will stick with my G 20 10mm for home defense

Do you intend to even have a house left afterwards? That thing could take out the whole neighborhood with just one magazine! :rofl:

off road
10-07-2011, 17:22
Don't get me wrong, everyone should have a combat shotgun, but in a confined space it will rarely be the best weapon choice. It is long and clumsy, and at close quarters you are very likely to have to go hand-to-hand if you are surprised (and believe me, you WILL be surprised), making it easy for your opponent to just deflect the barrel in a safe direction!

If I choose to use a shotgun, conditions would have to be ideal, and it has to have a Giles sling, and I must have a medium frame high capacity handgun (G23/19) to transition to when things go bad.

collim1
10-07-2011, 17:37
I saw a guy take a load of #6 from 10yds away last week. Lots of blood, looked terrible, knocked the teeth out of the front of his mouth, looked to have 400 tiny holes in him. Went home from the hospital two days later.

Birdshot is a terrible choice for SD. It doesn't even come out the other side of small game like doves and rabbits.

WoodenPlank
10-07-2011, 17:41
I saw a guy take a load of #6 from 10yds away last week. Lots of blood, looked terrible, knocked the teeth out of the front of his mouth, looked to have 400 tiny holes in him. Went home from the hospital two days later.

Birdshot is a terrible choice for SD. It doesn't even come out the other side of small game like doves and rabbits.

Bingo. Bird shot is for birds, buck shot is for bad guys.

DHSGMAN
10-07-2011, 22:59
Hornady has new 2 3/4 Critical Defense for the 12 gauge, states it clocks at 1600 fps, with 8 pellets. They come in a box of 10 for about 12 bucks.

Haven't shot any yet, but seems like it could be a winner.

VZ1600
10-08-2011, 05:35
Hornady has new 2 3/4 Critical Defense for the 12 gauge, states it clocks at 1600 fps, with 8 pellets. They come in a box of 10 for about 12 bucks.

Haven't shot any yet, but seems like it could be a winner.

It's reboxed Hornady TAP in a black hull. And it's more expensive than TAP. Btw, the Hornady TAP brand is what I load in my shotgun, AR15 and my 9mm. It's good stuff.


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DHSGMAN
10-08-2011, 10:48
It's reboxed Hornady TAP in a black hull. And it's more expensive than TAP. Btw, the Hornady TAP brand is what I load in my shotgun, AR15 and my 9mm. It's good stuff.


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It's the same as the super performance(1600 FPS), the TAP registers at 1400 FPS. At least that what I found.

VZ1600
10-08-2011, 18:41
It's the same as the super performance(1600 FPS), the TAP registers at 1400 FPS. At least that what I found.

I have 2 boxes of TAP sitting here in front of me. Stock# 86276, 8 pellet 00buck at 1600fps. Be happy to post a pic if you care for further verification.


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A6Gator
10-09-2011, 08:23
Whatever. I'll stick with buckshot, 00.

I'm with ya, just #1 buck instead.

I routinely see heavy steel poppers rocked back at 3 gun matches by 1 1/8oz of #7 1/2s or #8s, but I rarely hear about home invasions by steel poppers...:supergrin:

DHSGMAN
10-09-2011, 10:04
I have 2 boxes of TAP sitting here in front of me. Stock# 86276, 8 pellet 00buck at 1600fps. Be happy to post a pic if you care for further verification.


OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors.

Naw man, I believe you. Are they any good?

VZ1600
10-09-2011, 15:59
Naw man, I believe you. Are they any good?

Yes sir they are.

Hornady's "VersaTite" wad pretty much works the same as Federals "Flite Control" wad. I am getting the same groups out to 15 yards between brands. Locally I get the TAP rounds cheaper than the Federal rounds.

Another plus to TAP rounds is they are a millimeter or two shorter than most other buckshot rounds on the market. So for instance, in my older 20 inch Mossberg 590 I can get 9 rounds of TAP in the mag tube as opposed to 8 rounds with all other brands of buckshot.


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Woody Jones
10-11-2011, 23:29
I stick with 2 3/4 00 buck. Wife is only person here besides me, we live out in the country, so over-penetration is not a concern. I'm pretty handy at repairing drywall anyway.

KiloXray
10-26-2011, 18:21
I don't know stuff about stuff but - I do know, at 7 yards, not only will 00 Buck blast a bad guy dead, it will probably carry the bad guy up in the air into the wall , crashing thru the sheetrock. I mean you're talking about the actual bad guy overpenetrating into the wall, not just the 00 buckshot. so 8 pellets (again why are we using 8 shot 00 Buck, please? I'm not really in the least satisfied with the answer and could write a doctoral dissertation on that subject alone but, please retort.) Went "blasting thru his intestines, but he did not die" .... AT 7 YARDS......


.

Nope. http://mythbustersresults.com/episode25 Myth1, of episode 25.

Ummm.....no.

Sorry Scrappy, but maybe it's time to lay off the John Woo movies huh? Newton's 3rd law disputes your post.

Newton's 3rd Law: "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions"

So everytime you fire your 930 SPX do you fly a few feet backwards through the air? No? Hmmmm, then I highly doubt the bad guy will either.

Btw, you did mention "high school level physics" in another post in this thread. Newton's 3rd Law was taught in HS science class. At least it was at my HS. :upeyes:

This IS why. Cheers.

ScrappyDoo
10-26-2011, 18:57
Naturally I was 100% serious about the bad guy blasting through the drywall and all.


And as far as science, please, do a little Googling and try to get a better understanding of what you're attempting to both explain scientifically and practically, and sound it out a few times. There is an excellent thread on Shotgunworld somewhere where the gentleman explains exactly the science involved in a very step by step and methodical method- I have neither the time nor inclination to do so here. But maybe a little further study is warranted here, before rendering on judgement on this subject... I have done Extensive research on the subject, have you? Really? Tell the truth.

G33Fla
10-26-2011, 19:20
00 buck in my Judge....yeah!

eracer
10-26-2011, 19:24
Repeat after me: "#1 buck, #1 buck, #1 buck, #1 buck, #1 buck, #1 buck...."

VZ1600
10-27-2011, 10:41
Naturally I was 100% serious about the bad guy blasting through the drywall and all.

:upeyes:


And as far as science, please, do a little Googling and try to get a better understanding of what you're attempting to both explain scientifically and practically, and sound it out a few times.

I did, it's called Newton's 3rd Law

There is an excellent thread on Shotgunworld somewhere where the gentleman explains exactly the science involved in a very step by step and methodical method- I have neither the time nor inclination to do so here.

Really? John Woo is member at shotgunworld.com? So am I. I'll have to look for him. :whistling:

I have done Extensive research on the subject

Oh really? Like what? Stealing corpses from the local morgue, posting them up in front of some drywall and blasting them with buckshot? :upeyes:

have you? Really? Tell the truth.

Yes I have. Every time I go to the local trap range and pull the trigger on one of my shotguns. I DO NOT go flying backwards. But according to you, I should right? :dunno:

According to Mr. Newton, I won't go flying backwards. I believe I will take his word (and science) over yours. :whistling:

ScrappyDoo
10-27-2011, 11:29
Are you seriously trying to get at me about blasting backwards? Really dude ?

Especially after I clearly made reference to it, and you go off about John Wu and, *STEALING CORPSES AND BLASTING THEM WITH BUCKSHOT?* Are you mentally ill?

And BUCKSHOT vs. BIRDSHOT is NOT NEWTON's THIRD LAW, and NOT ABOUT RECOIL. But here, genius.... Let's see if I can help you.

Birdshot does NOT work the same as Buckshot because, no matter how many people want to believe this to be so, 100 or 1000 little pellets DO NOT "act as a mass" - as it's often put on the internet - 'before it opens up' and hits the target with the same force. Absolutely not. The 00 Buck pellets, one, two, or all nine of them, each has way more energy when it hits the victim because of mass. The birdshot BB's might hit you 100 or 1000 times and you might have 1000 little wounds, could be ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING looking, but it will NOT affect you in the same way as pellets of 00 buck because, in the land of fatal wounds to vital organs, 1000 extremely small therefore extremely weak pellet-caused-wounds do NOT equal large, powerful , .32 caliber pellets hitting the body.

Again, because the size of the pellets are different, AKA Mass, the FORCE they exert is different, and its not cumulative. a bunch of superficial or slightly worse little bb wounds don't add up to destruction of 00 Buck shot, and 1000 pellets flying through the air absolutely do not "act as a mass" ... Unless of course your Newtown's Law somehow converts the flying pellets of birdshot, Post-barrel, INTO A Giant Pellet/Slug/Miracle, and THEN It hits the person. Then, of course, all I said would be wrong.

baring that..

and really man? Digging up corpses and shooting them? John Wu? really?

VZ1600
10-27-2011, 15:01
Are you seriously trying to get at me about blasting backwards? Really dude ?

Especially after I clearly made reference to it, and you go off about John Wu and, *STEALING CORPSES AND BLASTING THEM WITH BUCKSHOT?* Are you mentally ill?

And BUCKSHOT vs. BIRDSHOT is NOT NEWTON's THIRD LAW, and NOT ABOUT RECOIL. But here, genius.... Let's see if I can help you.

Birdshot does NOT work the same as Buckshot because, no matter how many people want to believe this to be so, 100 or 1000 little pellets DO NOT "act as a mass" - as it's often put on the internet - 'before it opens up' and hits the target with the same force. Absolutely not. The 00 Buck pellets, one, two, or all nine of them, each has way more energy when it hits the victim because of mass. The birdshot BB's might hit you 100 or 1000 times and you might have 1000 little wounds, could be ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING looking, but it will NOT affect you in the same way as pellets of 00 buck because, in the land of fatal wounds to vital organs, 1000 extremely small therefore extremely weak pellet-caused-wounds do NOT equal large, powerful , .32 caliber pellets hitting the body.

Again, because the size of the pellets are different, AKA Mass, the FORCE they exert is different, and its not cumulative. a bunch of superficial or slightly worse little bb wounds don't add up to destruction of 00 Buck shot, and 1000 pellets flying through the air absolutely do not "act as a mass" ... Unless of course your Newtown's Law somehow converts the flying pellets of birdshot, Post-barrel, INTO A Giant Pellet/Slug/Miracle, and THEN It hits the person. Then, of course, all I said would be wrong.

baring that..

and really man? Digging up corpses and shooting them? John Wu? really?

Please show me where I said ANYTHING about birdshot vs buckshot. I didn't.

You are trying to read way too deep into what I've posted. So deep in fact that now you're seeing words that aren't there.

The replies I have made to your first post was to simply point out that it is an absolute myth that if some is shot with a shotgun, that they'll go flying backwards. If you choose to believe that, fine. I could care less about your beliefs. But unless your extensive testing has actually sent a body flying backward, you simply do not know what you're talking about.

Do you also believe that racking the slide action on a pump shotgun makes the bad guy crap himself too? I only ask because most "geniuses" (like you) tend to put the "flying backwards" and the "rack the slide action" into the same set of shotgun beliefs.

YMMV, although it seems the miles you've racked up were on a short, yellow bus.

Have a nice day.




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