Just some NEWBE ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Just some NEWBE ?


rpgman
10-06-2011, 06:38
Since I did my starting reloading I have notice something.

I have the 49th edition of Lyman's Loading Manal and this it what I noticed.

For .40 165gr using Bullseye and Unique it states:

Bullesys - Start = 4.8 and Max load = 5.4
Unique - Start = 5.4 and Max load = 6.0

So, I go to Alliant Powder's website and it states for the same .40 165gr:

Bullesys - 5.8gr
Unique - 7.2gr

Alliant's recipe’s are above the max that are stated in Lyman's?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Why?
<o:p></o:p>
Thanks,
Greg

Shadyscott69
10-06-2011, 07:08
Some manuals are more conservative than others. Really want an eye opener? Find a 20+ year old manual and compare some of those loads.

That is why you start low and work your way up if your are trying to load near max. You gotta know your pressure signs.

Colorado4Wheel
10-06-2011, 07:12
One reason I don't like about Unique is that the Data is all over the place. I got in trouble for saying that a while back. Jack owes me a apology now but I am SURE I won't get one. ;)

rpgman
10-06-2011, 07:18
One reason I don't like about Unique is that the Data is all over the place. I got in trouble for saying that a while back. Jack owes me a apology now but I am SURE I won't get one. ;)

yea, I noticed that also, but the Bullseye was off too in my example above, but not as much as Unique.

I'm seeing it also in 9mm

Colorado4Wheel
10-06-2011, 07:32
Both are really old powders so they have a lot of OLD data and more opportunity for this to happen. Both are Alliant products and have a horrible manufactures websites. It's easy to work up a load with a Chrono but it can be confusing if you don't have a history with the powder.

DoctaGlockta
10-06-2011, 07:55
One reason I don't like about Unique is that the Data is all over the place. I got in trouble for saying that a while back. Jack owes me a apology now but I am SURE I won't get one. ;)

I'm beginning to think you have a secret fetish for Unique. Just come out of the closet already. It's ok.

Colorado4Wheel
10-06-2011, 08:01
My issue with Unique is

1) It doesn't meter well. It's fine if you don't jam the press and cause the powder to pack into the open cavity. So you just need to be aware.
2) All these newbies get told by people using it for 20 years it's a great powder. So they buy it. Then they get confused by the data like the OP.

I can see why people like it. You Unique guys need to be willing to step up and help this guy figure out what data to believe.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 08:24
My issue with Unique is

1) It doesn't meter well. It's fine if you don't jam the press and cause the powder to pack into the open cavity. So you just need to be aware.
2) All these newbies get told by people using it for 20 years it's a great powder. So they buy it. Then they get confused by the data like the OP.

I can see why people like it. You Unique guys need to be willing to step up and help this guy figure out what data to believe.

yep, I was told that Unique is a decent powder and can be used in many different kinds of rounds. So, I purchased it without further researching it.

MY bad, I guess
Greg

DoctaGlockta
10-06-2011, 08:48
yep, I was told that Unique is a decent powder and can be used in many different kinds of rounds. So, I purchased it without further researching it.

MY bad, I guess
Greg

I believe you bought a good powder. I don't load 40 so I am sorry I can't help here.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 08:58
I believe you bought a good powder. I don't load 40 so I am sorry I can't help here.

well I'm gonna use it for 9mm also.
But, the 9mm didn't vary as much.

Layman's 49th:

9mm 147gr usimng Unique = 3.7 to 4.5

Alliant's Website:

9mm 147gr usimng Unique = 4.3

Alliant didn't have a ,measure for Bullseye on the 147gr.

fredj338
10-06-2011, 09:11
Much of the variation comes from how the testing is done. Lyman uses Univ fixed receiver, Speer actual guns, etc. SO test platforms are going to vary as well as bullets & cases, it all matters. It's why I recommend at least 3 viable sources for a new powder. Average the data, start in the middle & work your loads up @ 0.1gr at a time for powders HS6 & faster. Slower powders can have you workup in 0.2gr increments. Reloading manuals are a guide not bibles.

Colorado4Wheel
10-06-2011, 09:14
Reloading Data is useless with out OAL and Bullet type. Post those up. Some of the difference may be in the details.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 09:23
Reloading Data is useless with out OAL and Bullet type. Post those up. Some of the difference may be in the details.


I purchaaed these at the nearest Bass Pro Shop while I wait on the Precision Delta's. I only got 100 of them and they had nothing in stock in .40 except these.

For the .40 they are:

Hornady® XTP™ Pistol Bullets
165GR

OAL in Lyman is Speer TMJ 1.120 OAL

OAL on Alliant's is Speer GDP 1.12 OAL

Colorado4Wheel
10-06-2011, 09:27
So part of the issue is Alliant seems to always use GDHP. They seem to require some different data. I would start with the lower data and work it up. You will know if you have a sub starting load. Gun simply will not run. Starting load will feel soft and barely run the gun most the time. If your using a common pistol (not some finicky compact).

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 09:30
I also believe you bought a good powder and one of the most versatile powders there is. I've loaded it from .380acp to medium .454casull, and most in between and it has performed well.

I normally load a 165gr. FP Berry's with 6.5gr Unique in the .40s&w and have gone up to 7gr. with no problem at col of 1.130".

In the 9mm I have gone up to 4.2gr. Unique with a 147gr.RN Berry's at col. of 1.150" and 4.3gr. Unique with a 147gr. Speer GD at 1.130" with no problem in.
I hope this helps some, be sure to start lower and work your load up slowly.

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 09:41
For the .40 they are:

Hornady® XTP™ Pistol Bullets
165GR

OAL in Lyman is Speer TMJ 1.120 OAL

OAL on Alliant's is Speer GDP 1.12 OAL


Hornady in their 2 most recent manuals have listed COL. of 1.125" for their .40 155gr. and 180gr. xtp's so I would guess the 165gr. would be in that range also. Try loading a dummy round in that range and check the cartridge in the barrel of your gun to make sure it fits. Use the longest col. that will fit in your gun and cycle reliably.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 10:25
Thanks, I appreciate it.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Greg<o:p></o:p>

rpgman
10-06-2011, 10:27
Hornady in their 2 most recent manuals have listed COL. of 1.125" for their .40 155gr. and 180gr. xtp's so I would guess the 165gr. would be in that range also. Try loading a dummy round in that range and check the cartridge in the barrel of your gun to make sure it fits. Use the longest col. that will fit in your gun and cycle reliably.

On the dummy round I made the other day, I had a COL of 1.124
Greg

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 10:47
On the dummy round I made the other day, I had a COL of 1.124
Greg

Your welcome, for some reason Lyman's manual can be very conservative on some loads.
If that round works it sounds good. If it was me I would start at about 5.8grs. of Unique and work up slow. Don't load more that 10 rds. of each to try for funtionality. I've loaded the 6.5grs. that work fine in a G23 and a Kahr CW40.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 10:51
Your welcome, for some reason Lyman's manual can be very conservative on some loads.
If that round works it sounds good. If it was me I would start at about 5.8grs. of Unique and work up slow. Don't load more that 10 rds. of each to try for funtionality. I've loaded the 6.5grs. that work fine in a G23 and a Kahr CW40.

these are for a G27

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 11:00
these are for a G27

That's basicly the same as my G23 next size smaller and different recoil spring. I've got a G26 in 9mm which is the same size. You should be able to get a good load worked out for it with Unique. It is a good powder for newb's, it fills the case good.Prevents double charges.

PS. Is the Florence you from in CO.?

rpgman
10-06-2011, 11:12
That's basicly the same as my G23 next size smaller and different recoil spring. I've got a G26 in 9mm which is the same size. You should be able to get a good load worked out for it with Unique. It is a good powder for newb's, it fills the case good.Prevents double charges.

PS. Is the Florence you from in CO.?

No, its the one in South Carolina.

Te one with NO INDOOR RANGES within 80 miles and the one with no public outdoor ranges.

I use a private range supplied by the person that taught me for my CCW.

It's nice, just call and he'll see if it's free and your the only one there.

I just wish Florence, SC had at least ONE indoor range.
Greg

rpgman
10-06-2011, 11:18
another question I have is:

I was using my Lyman 9mm dye set, and when I used it to expand the mouth, some of the 9mm cases kinda became coke bottled.

Is that normal?

I've read that happens during the seating of lead bullets, but on just expanding the mouth should it happen?

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 11:24
another question I have is:

I was using my Lyman 9mm dye set, and when I used it to expand the mouth, some of the 9mm cases kinda became coke bottled.

Is that normal?

I've read that happens during the seating of lead bullets, but on just expanding the mouth should it happen?

You might be expanding too much, you only need to expand enough for the bullet to sit on the case. Maybe a little more for cast bullets. It can happen on seating which is normal but not on flaring.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 11:30
You might be expanding too much, you only need to expand enough for the bullet to sit on the case. Maybe a little more for cast bullets. It can happen on seating which is normal but not on flaring.


ok, so I'll just recycle those ones....only about 5 did it out of 50.

Also, on the on other 45, it flared the case out, but it just seems different than when I use my RCBS dyes on the .40 to flair....the Layman flared them, but there is this kinda 'ridge' to them like it flared it out and over...if I'm explaionfg it right.

I really dislike the Lyman 9mm dye set I have.

Batesmotel
10-06-2011, 11:36
One other thing to think about. Powder formulations change over time. For years my favorite powder for 308 was IMR 4064. The formulation changed slightly and all of the loads in the latest Sierra book reflect the change.

IIRC this was not an actual chemical change but a slight difference in the way the powder was extruded in the new machines and changed the burn rate. I always use the latest data I can.

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 11:40
ok, so I'll just recycle those ones....only about 5 did it out of 50.

Also, on the on other 45, it flared the case out, but it just seems different than when I use my RCBS dyes on the .40 to flair....the Layman flared them, but there is this kinda 'ridge' to them like it flared it out and over...if I'm explaionfg it right.

I really dislike the Lyman 9mm dye set I have.

That sounds like you have way too much flare. Are you using a powder thru die to flare or on a ss press. I have only used one set of Lyman dies and they were in .308 win many, many years ago. I don't remember why, but I wasn't thrilled with them either.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 11:45
That sounds like you have way too much flare. Are you using a powder thru die to flare or on a ss press. I have only used one set of Lyman dies and they were in .308 win many, many years ago. I don't remember why, but I wasn't thrilled with them either.

I'm using a Lyman T-Mag II turret press.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 11:51
I only flared them a bit, but it kinda feels ridged on the case mouth lip, unlike when I did my .40's with the RSBS dye set.

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 12:04
I only flared them a bit, but it kinda feels ridged on the case mouth lip, unlike when I did my .40's with the RSBS dye set.

Is that ridge going to the outside of the case, and is that a powder thru expander or just an expanding die?

rpgman
10-06-2011, 12:11
Is that ridge going to the outside of the case, and is that a powder thru expander or just an expanding die?

yes, it's going to the outside. It'san expanding die.

I know I can use them (the flared out ones), if they go into my sitting die, but they won't last long for re-loading purposes.

I guess I did flare them to much.

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 12:20
yes, it's going to the outside. It'san expanding die.

I know I can use them (the flared out ones), if they go into my sitting die, but they won't last long for re-loading purposes.

I guess I did flare them to much.

Yes looking at the lyman die parts it descibes it as a 2 step expanding die. It looks like there is a larger lip on the expander plug above the main one. I think if you back the expanding plug out slowly and continue to try a case in it I think you will get to the adjustment where it just flares and doesn't bend that lip. I'm just guessing because I haven't seen that die, but I think it is just an adjustment problem. Maybe if you have the directions for that die it may help explain it. And yes like you say if they fit in your seater die you can use them, but it will work the brass excessively.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 12:23
Yes looking at the lyman die parts it descibes it as a 2 step expanding die. It looks like there is a larger lip on the expander plug above the main one. I think if you back the expanding plug out slowly and continue to try a case in it I think you will get to the adjustment where it just flares and doesn't bend that lip. I'm just guessing because I haven't seen that die, but I think it is just an adjustment problem. Maybe if you have the directions for that die it may help explain it.


OH, I have the directions for that dye set, and I followed them, but I guess I messed something up....the lyman directions stink anyway.

I just might order me another RSCB or LEE 9mm set instead.

I'll figure it out, I just wanted to know if it was normal and you gladly gave me the answer.

thanks for all your help.
Greg

ColoCG
10-06-2011, 12:26
I have had good luck with RCBS and Lee, but actually prefer Lee and there cheaper too.

rpgman
10-06-2011, 13:52
this is the Lyman 2 step expanding dye I use.

I hate it.

page 2

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/catalogue-download/pdf/Dies-and-Die-Sets.pdf

rpgman
10-10-2011, 03:17
oops, my bad...
posted in the wrong thread.

see this thread..

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1374128

GioaJack
10-10-2011, 10:16
this is the Lyman 2 step expanding dye I use.

I hate it.

page 2

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/catalogue-download/pdf/Dies-and-Die-Sets.pdf


If you plan on robbing a 7-11 and want to disguise your identity you may want to consider using a dye to change the color of your hair.

On the other hand if you want to load some ammunition you may find it easier to use a die(s)... they don't require water and won't stain your hands.


Jack

rpgman
10-10-2011, 10:29
If you plan on robbing a 7-11 and want to disguise your identity you may want to consider using a dye to change the color of your hair.

On the other hand if you want to load some ammunition you may find it easier to use a die(s)... they don't require water and won't stain your hands.


Jack

yea, MY BAD, lol.

Greg

rpgman
10-10-2011, 10:30
oh, BTW GioaJack

I enjoy ur videos, so keep making them.
Greg

Tpro
10-10-2011, 10:41
If you plan on robbing a 7-11 and want to disguise your identity you may want to consider using a dye to change the color of your hair.

On the other hand if you want to load some ammunition you may find it easier to use a die(s)... they don't require water and won't stain your hands.


Jack

I was going to say this is "text" talk but it's still a 3 letter word. He just got it wrong:wavey:

fredj338
10-10-2011, 12:59
If you plan on robbing a 7-11 and want to disguise your identity you may want to consider using a dye to change the color of your hair.

On the other hand if you want to load some ammunition you may find it easier to use a die(s)... they don't require water and won't stain your hands.


Jack

And Jack knows about dye, just check out his casting video!:rofl:

rpgman
10-10-2011, 13:01
And Jack knows about dye, just check out his casting video!:rofl:

I wasn't going to mention that, lol.
Greg