Nevada DPS director stops the use of 1911's. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mixflip
10-06-2011, 14:40
Anybody know why exactly??? Rumor is that there was an "incident" but I dont know what that incident was? Did an officer have a negligent discharge?

Patchman
10-06-2011, 15:36
Anybody know why exactly??? Rumor is that there was an "incident" but I dont know what that incident was? Did an officer have a negligent discharge?

I have no idea why, or if, they stopped. But can't imagine it was a simple negligent discharge. It might have been a "large" number of NDs, or one doosey of a single ND.

collim1
10-06-2011, 17:29
sounds like a knee jerk to me.

Chuck TX
10-06-2011, 19:45
Some bean counter probably found out they came in a cardboard box.

PinkoCommie
10-06-2011, 20:07
Surely, millions of shooters over the past century must be wrong. The 1911 platform is clearly defective and dangerous.

:upeyes:

CAcop
10-06-2011, 20:14
If you were to look at the ADs at my PD you should ban Glock 22s and Smith 5906s.

collim1
10-06-2011, 20:17
Surely, millions of shooters over the past century must be wrong. The 1911 platform is clearly defective and dangerous.

:upeyes:

If I was a Chief of police I would not hand out the 1911 as a general standard issue weapon, but I think it is a great weapon in the hands of someone who know how to use it.

Sharkey
10-06-2011, 20:47
If I was Chief, I'd let my officers choose what fits their hand best and what they shoot best from a list of approved firearms.

Of course, that is why I'll never be a Chief.......

collim1
10-06-2011, 21:02
If I was Chief, I'd let my officers choose what fits their hand best and what they shoot best from a list of approved firearms.

Of course, that is why I'll never be a Chief.......

Yup. I am required to carry my issued gun, luckily I like the gun so it is not a problem. I dont prefer Glocks, and would HATE to be issued one like most of the guys in my area.

I have never understood an agency choosing what gun ALL their officers are to carry. It is a personal decision just like boxers or briefs IMO.

mixflip
10-06-2011, 21:43
I had a Chief a while back tell me that he likes his officers to all have the same gun because in case of a shootout involving multiple officers and a high round count... officers could benefit from sharing ammo or battle field pickups.

I personally would rather have each officer have a gun that fits them since statistically most shootouts arent long engagements.

packsaddle
10-06-2011, 21:53
but, but, 1911's are too scary looking with the whole "hammer cocked back thingy".


related story:

had a guy (out of stater, northern accent, liberal) come over to me in a restaurant recently and the conversation went like this:

loon: (whispering) "excuse me, umm, sir? i just thought i would let you know that your gun is cocked"

me: (whispering back) "and next week they're gonna give me real bullets to go in it"


idiot.

Sharkey
10-06-2011, 21:54
I had a Chief a while back tell me that he likes his officers to all have the same gun because in case of a shootout involving multiple officers and a high round count... officers could benefit from sharing ammo or battle field pickups.

I personally would rather have each officer have a gun that fits them since statistically most shootouts arent long engagements.

A nice ivory tower answer. We are in a gunfight and you run out of ammo and want some of mine?

Vigilant
10-06-2011, 21:57
I had a Chief a while back tell me that he likes his officers to all have the same gun because in case of a shootout involving multiple officers and a high round count... officers could benefit from sharing ammo or battle field pickups.

I personally would rather have each officer have a gun that fits them since statistically most shootouts arent long engagements.

In a prolonged shootout, it would seem that one would transition to the long gun at some point in the encounter. That's where I would think commonality of ammo/mags would be worth looking at.

msu_grad_121
10-06-2011, 22:06
A nice ivory tower answer. We are in a gunfight and you run out of ammo and want some of mine?

Reminds me of something said by one much wiser than I long ago as a response for this very issue:

"You couldn't hit what you were aiming at with the 40+ rounds you had on YOUR belt, now you want some of MY rounds?" :rofl:

Hack
10-06-2011, 22:07
1911 type guns are good guns. It made me wonder why the US Army was mandated to switch out to Berettas in the late 80's, (in my unit).

I do wish that we could at least have our own gun for work, but not authorised. They used to actually do that up to the late 80's or maybe the early nineties for where I currently work. Of course, they also use to provide a box of ammo once a month and expect people to get practice with it, but now that we make good money they expect us to do everything on our own time. Even if it was all the same calibre it would be a good thing, as long as the armourer was up to speed on technical requirements. I chock it up to liability issues and what have you.

Hack
10-06-2011, 22:10
In a prolonged shootout, it would seem that one would transition to the long gun at some point in the encounter. That's where I would think commonality of ammo/mags would be worth looking at.

I think every officer in every police department should have long guns, and shot guns. Keep that standardised and people can share magazines with each other. The military in our country has this down to a science and it works well. Keep the handgun as a defensive weapon only, not as a tool of enforcement.

Facejackets
10-06-2011, 22:53
Crazy. I have had probably 20+ LVMPD guys come into the store I work at in the last week looking for 1911's. I know HPD, TA, and BCPD all allow 1911's too.

JimBianchi
10-06-2011, 23:15
I know LV metro still carries them if the want. A friend is a K9 officer and he is a die-hard 1911 fan and has carried one for as long as I've known him (11yrs).

larry_minn
10-07-2011, 00:06
I recall early 1980s a case where a "attempt" was made to "borrow" ammo from another Officer. I got this from a Officer who was there. .
As I recall the suspects were heading North (West) on I-94 in MN. They went thru Moorhead MN and were stopped by Fargo PD (and Sheriff's Deputies on bridge (border) with MN and Moorhead PD Officers behind them.
This one Officer opened fire. (not really sure what justification was) and fired all 6, reload, fire,reload till out of ammo. Asks other Officer for more ammo. He tells her no. So she grabs shotgun and fires that blind as well. IIRC she hit a Clay County Deputies squad. Runs shotgun empty and is working at getting into trunk for more ammo when "contained"
Nobody hit, suspect arrested and she was honered for her actions.........

blueiron
10-07-2011, 00:24
:upeyes:

Who else likes Junior Mints?

PawDog
10-07-2011, 08:57
1911 type guns are good guns. It made me wonder why the US Army was mandated to switch out to Berettas in the late 80's, (in my unit).

I do wish that we could at least have our own gun for work, but not authorised. They used to actually do that up to the late 80's or maybe the early nineties for where I currently work. Of course, they also use to provide a box of ammo once a month and expect people to get practice with it, but now that we make good money they expect us to do everything on our own time. Even if it was all the same calibre it would be a good thing, as long as the armourer was up to speed on technical requirements. I chock it up to liability issues and what have you.


Hack,

No. The BOP never issued "take home" weapons or ammo, at least not in the past 30 years. Not sure who provided you with that info, but it's not true.

mixflip
10-07-2011, 11:16
Crazy. I have had probably 20+ LVMPD guys come into the store I work at in the last week looking for 1911's. I know HPD, TA, and BCPD all allow 1911's too.

Yep, DPS officers are all state cops. State cops cant carry 1911's anymore in Nevada. City and county have different rules.

Gangrel
10-07-2011, 11:38
Reminds me of something said by one much wiser than I long ago as a response for this very issue:

"You couldn't hit what you were aiming at with the 40+ rounds you had on YOUR belt, now you want some of MY rounds?" :rofl:

That is a silly and narrow minded response. What if the other officer is in a tactically better position than you and they are the only one with a line of fire?

What if you are injured/dead/incapacitated and they need more ammunition?

What if they have been on scene longer and need replenishing?

p.d.
10-07-2011, 11:50
That is a silly and narrow minded response. What if the other officer is in a tactically better position than you and they are the only one with a line of fire?

What if you are injured/dead/incapacitated and they need more ammunition?

What if they have been on scene longer and need replenishing?

If they are in a better position, I'm not waltzing over to do an unrep. If I'm dead, they're welcome to my gear.

mixflip
10-07-2011, 13:15
That is a silly and narrow minded response.

What if they have been on scene longer and need replenishing?

Very good point.

Sharkey
10-07-2011, 13:21
If they are in a better position, I'm not waltzing over to do an unrep. If I'm dead, they're welcome to my gear.


Exactly.

Kadetklapp
10-07-2011, 13:23
1911 type guns are good guns. It made me wonder why the US Army was mandated to switch out to Berettas in the late 80's, (in my unit).



Why? NATO.

NVSeabee
10-07-2011, 17:19
I am a NV DPS Officer and I've carried a 1911 for years. This is the first I've heard of it and I'm going to call BS without out a reference.
However, the Chief's of the different divisions can have more restrictive policies.

mixflip
10-07-2011, 18:08
I am a NV DPS Officer and I've carried a 1911 for years. This is the first I've heard of it and I'm going to call BS without out a reference.
However, the Chief's of the different divisions can have more restrictive policies.

DPS Director Perry sent the email a few weeks ago. I guess you didnt get the email???

CAcop
10-07-2011, 22:52
That is a silly and narrow minded response. What if the other officer is in a tactically better position than you and they are the only one with a line of fire?Then you need to get into that position.

What if you are injured/dead/incapacitated and they need more ammunition?Then they can use my weapon and ammo. Even though I think Glocks are best suited for people who neglect their firearms I would stoop to use one if that is all I had left.

What if they have been on scene longer and need replenishing?If they are out of ammo they need to get out of there.

I am sorry but I went through the effort of buying extra mags and filling them up with department approved ammo, "just in case." There are plenty of guys with only one mag for their rifle in my department. They could pick up at least one spare when they check out the rifle at the beginning of their shift. I have two spares. I'll be damned if I am going to give up ammo unless it is a grave emergency, as in we are surrounded by a force that outnumbers us. There are only a handful of guys on my department with a pistol like mine. I have 4 extra mags besides the stuff on my belt.

The whole argument for everyone having the same mags is essentially ammo welfare. Because person A is too lazy to make sure they have an adequate supply they are going to mooch off person B.

3000fps
10-07-2011, 23:22
but, but, 1911's are too scary looking with the whole "hammer cocked back thingy".


related story:

had a guy (out of stater, northern accent, liberal) come over to me in a restaurant recently and the conversation went like this:

loon: (whispering) "excuse me, umm, sir? i just thought i would let you know that your gun is cocked"

me: (whispering back) "and next week they're gonna give me real bullets to go in it"


idiot.


LOL! Same thing happened to me, had a guy approach me at the grocery store and tell me that the hammer on my gun was back. Uh, yeah it kinda has to be that way on a single action pistol.

People amaze me.

Agent6-3/8
10-08-2011, 04:56
LOL! Same thing happened to me, had a guy approach me at the grocery store and tell me that the hammer on my gun was back. Uh, yeah it kinda has to be that way on a single action pistol.

People amaze me.

Its one thing for the public, but I had a fellow officer look at me and ask, "you ready to kill somebody?" I replied that as a matter of fact I was, should the need arise... :upeyes:

jpa
10-09-2011, 03:15
Crazy. I have had probably 20+ LVMPD guys come into the store I work at in the last week looking for 1911's. I know HPD, TA, and BCPD all allow 1911's too.

No we don't.

To the OP: I wouldn't be surprised if the director for some reason got a bug in his bonnet about 1911's. You know how things go, one day it's ok the next not so much.

I was just at the Enforcement Expo at the LVCC beginning of Sept and I was talking to a female DPS officer and her male partner who was carrying a 1911. We were at the Sig booth looking at the P238 and she was discussing picking one up. The guy was really into it since it would be almost the same action as his 1911. I hope they didn't waste any money on it...

MakeMineA10mm
10-09-2011, 06:02
If you were to look at the ADs at my PD you should ban Glock 22s and Smith 5906s.
Great post! NDs have little to do with the gun (but do sometimes) and most to do with the nut holding the gun...
If I was Chief, I'd let my officers choose what fits their hand best and what they shoot best from a list of approved firearms.

Of course, that is why I'll never be a Chief.......

I used to think precisely this way, but having been our armorer and firearms instructor for a few years, I'd say having one standard makes training, maintenance, spare parts, etc. easier. It's also a rare person who needs a different-sized grip on their weapon. (We have one-former basketball college & semi-pro guy whose fingers can wrap around most people's head - he's the only person I've ever met who could add a Hogue hand-all to a Glock21...). We just sent a female through state firearms training, and they tried to blame "gun fit" on her not qualifying. I worked with her for a half-hour each, four times over the next 2 weeks, and she qualified sharpshooter with the same gun. You have to find a really small female (or male) to find someone who can't handle a 40-cal sized Glock (22 or 23). Poor gun fit, for the most part, is an argument to distract from poor training and/or an argument used by someone who prefers a certain brand or model of gun. I used to have favorite brands/models of guns, but now I see them as practical objects like tools and as an instructor I've learned anybody can be trained to shoot anything.

Our dept doesn't authorize 1911s, but our sister agency does, and everyone who put in for permission to carry one did so as a status symbol, not because it's a better weapon...

BuckyP
10-09-2011, 08:10
I am sorry but I went through the effort of buying extra mags and filling them up with department approved ammo, "just in case." There are plenty of guys with only one mag for their rifle in my department. They could pick up at least one spare when they check out the rifle at the beginning of their shift. I have two spares. I'll be damned if I am going to give up ammo unless it is a grave emergency, as in we are surrounded by a force that outnumbers us. There are only a handful of guys on my department with a pistol like mine. I have 4 extra mags besides the stuff on my belt.

The whole argument for everyone having the same mags is essentially ammo welfare. Because person A is too lazy to make sure they have an adequate supply they are going to mooch off person B.

What do you carry, if I may ask?

DaBigBR
10-09-2011, 17:28
I was just at the Enforcement Expo at the LVCC beginning of Sept and I was talking to a female DPS officer and her male partner who was carrying a 1911. We were at the Sig booth looking at the P238 and she was discussing picking one up. The guy was really into it since it would be almost the same action as his 1911. I hope they didn't waste any money on it...

I shot a P238 for the first time last weekend. I have to admit, it was a Cadillac compared to my LCP and P3AT. That said, five bills for a .380 just doesn't seem worth it. The sights were rice, the trigger was pretty decent, and it was a heck of a soft shooter.

Our dept doesn't authorize 1911s, but our sister agency does, and everyone who put in for permission to carry one did so as a status symbol, not because it's a better weapon...

Do you base this statement on your opinion or on the statements of the adopting officers? I carry a 1911 by choice because I am ultimately more confident with the weapon that any other. I dare say that if I was more confident with a High Point than any other weapon, that I would be lugging one of those around.

What do you carry, if I may ask?

CAcop
10-09-2011, 21:50
What do you carry, if I may ask?

Colt Gov't 1991A1.

And I carry it because it fits my hand very well. Large palms with small fingers. Most DA guns are a stretch for me. All my sigs have short triggers in them. Gaston missed the boat on his design by making the mag polymer. He could have made it medal and the grip would be thinner. Why do you thin the USP series of pistols have metal bodies when space is at a premium. Mystique isn't going to get me anywhere. If the chief were to ban 1911s tomorrow I would look at my Sigs or a Smith M&P. I can deal with a Glock but why go with a gun that is less than optimal if you can?

NMPOPS
10-09-2011, 23:28
If I was Chief, I'd let my officers choose what fits their hand best and what they shoot best from a list of approved firearms.

Of course, that is why I'll never be a Chief.......

My department does exactly that. We issue the Glock 22 but you can carry anything you want as long as it's a semi-auto in 9mm, .40 or 45 ACP and the pistol is a quality made pistol. Currently we have Glocks in 9,40 & 45, H&Ks in 40, and 1911's made by Colt, Springfield and Kimber. 38 &32 revolvers and auto are allowed for back up and off duty only.

All ammo, practice & duty is supplied by the department.

NEOH212
10-10-2011, 03:08
It sounds like operator error and not the gun.

BuckyP
10-10-2011, 05:49
Colt Gov't 1991A1.

And I carry it because it fits my hand very well. Large palms with small fingers. Most DA guns are a stretch for me. All my sigs have short triggers in them. Gaston missed the boat on his design by making the mag polymer. He could have made it medal and the grip would be thinner. Why do you thin the USP series of pistols have metal bodies when space is at a premium. Mystique isn't going to get me anywhere. If the chief were to ban 1911s tomorrow I would look at my Sigs or a Smith M&P. I can deal with a Glock but why go with a gun that is less than optimal if you can?

Excellent choice. :thumbsup:

I love my 1991A1.

CAcop
10-10-2011, 06:13
It sounds like operator error and not the gun.

Yup.

I remember hearing a story about somebody cutting loose with a few rounds with a 1911 when they weren't supposed to. They hung the gun from the door hook on the stall of a crapper. When they took it off they effectively bump fired it.

I also heard about San Jose PD when they first went to Glocks. 18 ADs later they made everyone go through training versus just have them qualify with the things. Apparently they were having trouble unloading the things before they pulled the trigger to clean them.

Agent6-3/8
10-10-2011, 06:16
Yup.

I remember hearing a story about somebody cutting loose with a few rounds with a 1911 when they weren't supposed to. They hung the gun from the door hook on the stall of a crapper. When they took it off they effectively bump fired it.

How's that even possible unless they were carrying in condition 0 with the grip safety deactivated? I've heard that story about Glocks several times, however.

CAcop
10-10-2011, 21:46
How's that even possible unless they were carrying in condition 0 with the grip safety deactivated? I've heard that story about Glocks several times, however.

I think the story is that the story is they jammed the trigger into the hook just as they took off the safety while holding it in a firing grip.

It's one of those classic stories that changes locations and agencies depending on where you are in the country. Think "Suprise mother****er!" kind of story.

Agent6-3/8
10-11-2011, 06:45
I think the story is that the story is they jammed the trigger into the hook just as they took off the safety while holding it in a firing grip.

It's one of those classic stories that changes locations and agencies depending on where you are in the country. Think "Suprise mother****er!" kind of story.

That would do it! :supergrin:

vanilla_gorilla
10-11-2011, 07:49
Reading this thread reminds me again to thank my chief for letting me tote my own gun, instead of the armorer lieutenants favorite.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/vanilla_gorilla911/003-1.jpg

MakeMineA10mm
10-14-2011, 16:16
Do you base this statement on your opinion or on the statements of the adopting officers? I carry a 1911 by choice because I am ultimately more confident with the weapon that any other. I dare say that if I was more confident with a High Point than any other weapon, that I would be lugging one of those around.

Confidence is a good thing, but it's also a matter of spending enough time with a reasonable-quality weapon. I don't think a HighPoint would ever qualify at that, so I'd classify your use of that particular brand as hyperbole, which is fine - I love a spirited debate about pistols! :wavey:

Now, a Taurus 24/7, S-W M&P, Glock, Sig, H&K, etc. -- anything with accuracy, dependability, and quality construction/production -- I don't care which brand it is -- all will fill the bill; all will have an occasional failure/bad example; and all will have people on the dept moan and complain about it, because it wasn't their choice. Trained right (spend enough time on and off the range with it), and those attitudes will change.

We have 3-4 open ranges per year (attendance at two is mandatory, but most of our people go to all of them), qualify twice a year (one target & one combat course), have a safety class once a year, gun-handling skills once a year, and a tactics class once a year. All involve shooting, except the gun-handling and safety classes, and they still involve operating/handling/dry-firing the pistol. After a year or two of that, and very few genuine gripes are heard.

As far as the "status" of being a 1911 toter, I base my assertion on observation. Most (at least 7 if not 8 out of the 9) guys who got a 1911, shoot worse with it than with their previous pistol, and they also happen to be the guys who shoot expert anyway.. Yet, every one of those 9 guys is very proud of their Kimber (oops, let that cat out, eh? :supergrin: ), can't wait to tell you why it's superior, and claim others are not armed well compared to them (even though we out-shoot most of them with our Glocks that also happen to hold twice as many bullets as theirs....). It's all bravado or look what I got ---> :tongueout:

The one guy who can handle the 1911 well, I, and our other "master-level" shooter, can still beat with our Glocks... (I can beat him with his own 1911, too.) I currently own around 9 of them (1911s), and my first gun was a Colt Ace when I was 10 yrs old - yes, still have it - so don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the 1911 per se; I just think it's hyped way out of proportion for law enforcement utility, so companies like Kimber can make money...

As much as I respect JMB, I think it's also ostrich-like to opine that there hasn't been some level of advancement in combat pistols in the last 100 years.

DaBigBR
10-16-2011, 15:02
The one guy who can handle the 1911 well, I, and our other "master-level" shooter, can still beat with our Glocks... (I can beat him with his own 1911, too.) I currently own around 9 of them (1911s), and my first gun was a Colt Ace when I was 10 yrs old - yes, still have it - so don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the 1911 per se; I just think it's hyped way out of proportion for law enforcement utility, so companies like Kimber can make money...

<-- Carries a Springfield Pro.

<-- Advises to avoid Kimber at their price point.

I do agree with your points, in fact I have two shooters right now wanting to transition to 1911s that want to do so pretty much entirely because they think the things are "cool."

OldCurlyWolf
10-16-2011, 16:17
<-- Carries a Springfield Pro.

<-- Advises to avoid Kimber at their price point.

I do agree with your points, in fact I have two shooters right now wanting to transition to 1911s that want to do so pretty much entirely because they think the things are "cool."

I started carrying the 1911 action in 1978. I have become quite comfortable with it. That or a DA Revolver and I don't have to worry about procedure. With my S&W "decocker" I have to think about it.

MakeMineA10mm
10-18-2011, 00:04
<-- Carries a Springfield Pro.

<-- Advises to avoid Kimber at their price point.

I do agree with your points, in fact I have two shooters right now wanting to transition to 1911s that want to do so pretty much entirely because they think the things are "cool."

Yep, Springfield is my favorite 1911. Nice choice on yours; that's a good one. I've got a standard 1911A1 from SA, but I'm thinking of ordering a bare-bones Commander from them to modify into a carry pistol for off-duty. Got some ideas on making it better (like everyone else and their brother... :supergrin: ) Most of my 1911s are WWII military. I've got a couple Colts, and I have one 1930s Colt-contract Argentine that I just love - came with ivories and has almost all of the deep-blue-black pre-war finish left on it -- probably my favorite 1911...

BUT, I hardly carry/use the 1911 these days. Wide, plastic grips spread the recoil out better for me, so their more comfortable than all the sharp edges on my pretty much standard 1911s. (Beavertail will definitely go on my Commander I make someday...)

I see these guys at work shoot worse, act cocky, and then bang their $900+ pistols into car doors, chair arms, computer desks, and other things and I just shake my head... It's amazing what some guys will do for perceived status... :faint: I suppose that's another reason I said what I did about issuing one kind of gun - nobody's better than anyone else... And, like I said, anyone can be trained to shoot any pistol well - except maybe a High Point! :supergrin: :wavey: