If H&Ks were the same price as Glocks [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mrsurfboard
10-07-2011, 20:58
Would Glocks still be the dominate handgun in LE?

razdog76
10-07-2011, 21:08
No, because most people in the LE world are not "operators," thus HK would still hate them, and probably more because the profit margin would be smaller.:supergrin:

Sam Spade
10-07-2011, 21:12
I would stay with Gaston.

Ever try to detail strip a USP? Or get spare parts from HK for a larger agency's needs? Then there're the ergonomics, which I think are better on a Glock, especially the consistency of trigger pull.

Price is a leading consideration, but if it weren't there then there are still plenty of other things tilting Glock's way.

AZnine
10-07-2011, 21:20
Easy one!!! Glock!!!

mrsurfboard
10-07-2011, 21:27
I would stay with Gaston.

Ever try to detail strip a USP? Or get spare parts from HK for a larger agency's needs? Then there're the ergonomics, which I think are better on a Glock, especially the consistency of trigger pull.

Price is a leading consideration, but if it weren't there then there are still plenty of other things tilting Glock's way.

There is where I have to disagree with you. The biggest complaint about the Glock is it's horrible grip and the trigger is either a love or hate thing. H&Ks LEM trigger will give you a consistant trigger pull like the Glock.

mrsurfboard
10-07-2011, 21:30
I would stay with Gaston.

Ever try to detail strip a USP? Or get spare parts from HK for a larger agency's needs? Then there're the ergonomics, which I think are better on a Glock, especially the consistency of trigger pull.

Price is a leading consideration, but if it weren't there then there are still plenty of other things tilting Glock's way.

Yeah, like the persistent Gen 4 problems and the creeping M&P market share.

Cav
10-07-2011, 21:35
IMHO H&K's are ok, but I would take a Glock.

The newer one might be better, but how many design changes can H&K make. Glocks have stayed about the same vs every few year H&K brings out a new model, and holsters and magazine do not interchange.

Gaston like Browning got it right, and it has been tweeked over the years, but not changed persay like H&K, who I feel are still trying to get it right.

DaBigBR
10-07-2011, 21:39
Nope, I think it would be just one less thing that the HK crowd would claim makes their product superior. I really think that in the hands of 90%+ of shooters that the difference in performance between modern firearms of reputable manufacture is down to shooter comfort and preference. There are some folks out there that can test the mechanical accuracy of their weapon and those folks may or may not see a difference, but for the vast majority it's moot.

Panzergrenadier1979
10-07-2011, 22:07
If Glocks were the price of HKs, then I would still say Glock.

The Glock grip angle is the only thing that bugs me about the weapon. However, my qualification scores tell me that that is a small detail that I can live with. :supergrin:

Vigilant
10-07-2011, 22:32
No, because most people in the LE world are not "operators," thus HK would still hate them, and probably more because the profit margin would be smaller.:supergrin:

For the win. :supergrin:

ar-steve
10-07-2011, 22:52
I traded my USP 45 straight across for a G21. I have never regretted that trade.
The USP was an outstanding handgun that everybody loved but me.

Kuroineko
10-07-2011, 23:06
If H&K could somehow come up with a polymer P7M8 or M13, maybe. As it is, H&K's don't seem to fit my hand very well. Make mine a 1911 or Glock.

3000fps
10-07-2011, 23:20
Glock all the way

4949shooter
10-08-2011, 04:16
I have told the story here before, so I think most of us know that my agency had a beloved member die with a broken H&K P7M8 in his hands. There were a lot of things that went wrong for Tpr. Gonzalez that day, and the broken gun was just one of many. The H&K (at least the P7M8) is plagued with the problem of many small, moving parts that do not last over the years. The pistols were in dire need of being refurbished. If Trooper Gonzalez had a Glock 19 in his hand instead of a P7M8, he would have had the means to continue to fight back against his assailant. We don't know, the outcome may have still been the same, but the broken H&K sits on my mind.

That having been said, we had a conversation in the lunch room just the other day amongst some old timers. We all agreed we liked the P7M8, and in many respects we still wish we carried it. But it must be understood that maintenance on a P7M8 is required far more frequently than for a Glock. It also must be understood that due to budget constraints and red tape in law enforcement organizations, this required maintainance does not always get done in a timely manner, if at all.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/14993-trooper-scott-m-gonzalez

Patchman
10-08-2011, 04:51
For starters, HK would have to do away with their funky mag releases.

KiloBravo
10-08-2011, 05:03
I have told the story here before, so I think most of us know that my agency had a beloved member die with a broken H&K P7M8 in his hands. There were a lot of things that went wrong for Tpr. Gonzalez that day, and the broken gun was just one of many. The H&K (at least the P7M8) is plagued with the problem of many small, moving parts that do not last over the years. The pistols were in dire need of being refurbished. If Trooper Gonzalez had a Glock 19 in his hand instead of a P7M8, he would have had the means to continue to fight back against his assailant. We don't know, the outcome may have still been the same, but the broken H&K sits on my mind.

That having been said, we had a conversation in the lunch room just the other day amongst some old timers. We all agreed we liked the P7M8, and in many respects we still wish we carried it. But it must be understood that maintenance on a P7M8 is required far more frequently than for a Glock. It also must be understood that due to budget constraints and red tape in law enforcement organizations, this required maintainance does not always get done in a timely manner, if at all.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/14993-trooper-scott-m-gonzalez

I read the story on the pro provided link, and that is awful to hear of the Troopers demise. Prayers to him and his family.

If you are willing to talk about it, do you recall how the weapon failed? I am just curious.

4949shooter
10-08-2011, 05:36
If you are willing to talk about it, do you recall how the weapon failed? I am just curious.

Armorers told me that the sleeve that houses the firing pin broke. This makes sense to me because this piece is a thin, metal part.

Edit: Scroll down to page 29. Part #14 (bush). The lower part that houses the upper end of the firing pin is thin metal.

http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/shared/P7_Ops_Manual_Trussville.pdf

Again, this is what I was told by the armorers.

KiloBravo
10-08-2011, 05:42
Armorers told me that the sleeve that houses the firing pin broke. This makes sense to me because this piece is a thin, metal part.

That is truly awful. What a terrible time for your weapon to go down on you.

4949shooter
10-08-2011, 05:51
That is truly awful. What a terrible time for your weapon to go down on you.

Yes. And his backup revolver was in his pocket. According to (verbal) reports, this was struck by a shotgun blast.

Goodspeed(TPF)
10-08-2011, 06:26
Yes indeed.

GunFighter45ACP
10-08-2011, 07:16
If HKs were same price as Glocks, I think Sig would have even greater problems in the LEO market.

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 07:34
For starters, HK would have to do away with their funky mag releases.

Again, a matter of preference. I find the HK system more natural then the standard button release.

steveksux
10-08-2011, 07:46
If H&K were the same price, LE would still be dominated by Glocks.

Reason being they transitioned from revolvers. No manual safeties, just point and pull. Semi-autos were badmouthed back in the day, tagged as unreliable. "If we had 15 people on the line with semi autos, at least one would be jamming in the course of fire". Glocks reliability along with no safety would have been the natural choice coming from a revolver dominated application.

Once the glocks were being considered for replacement, other makers, manual safeties might be considered once the semi-auto stigma had been overcome.

Randy

RVER
10-08-2011, 08:03
49/49 sorry for your loss. Simplicity and performance - Glock.

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 08:04
If H&K were the same price, LE would still be dominated by Glocks.

Reason being they transitioned from revolvers. No manual safeties, just point and pull. Semi-autos were badmouthed back in the day, tagged as unreliable. "If we had 15 people on the line with semi autos, at least one would be jamming in the course of fire". Glocks reliability along with no safety would have been the natural choice coming from a revolver dominated application.

Once the glocks were being considered for replacement, other makers, manual safeties might be considered once the semi-auto stigma had been overcome.

Randy

Have you even picked up a H&K pistol lately?? LEM triggers are available on most models.

As suspected, many of the people answering here have never touched or shot a H&K pistol based on their answers, pretty much what I expected.

steveksux
10-08-2011, 08:08
Have you even picked up a H&K pistol lately?? LEM triggers are available on most models.

As suspected, many of the people answering here have never touched or shot a H&K pistol based on their answers, pretty much what I expected.

Actually, if you look closer at what I said, it was referencing what H&K had available at the time departments were trasitioning from revolvers to semi-autos, not what's available lately. And implied that H&K would be considered now. I did look at H&K when I got my glock back in the 90's, and picked glock for the same reason I believe LE did. Its like a 16 shot revolver. No fancy schmancy levers to work, easy transition from revolvers with minimal retraining required to get proficient.

However, with Glocks having a 30 year head start, they'd still likely dominate the LE market.

Randy

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 08:17
http://larrycorreia.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/hksucks3.jpg
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mk23.jpg
http://i23.tinypic.com/158bhhi.jpg
:whistling::supergrin:

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 08:39
http://larrycorreia.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/hksucks3.jpg
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mk23.jpg
http://i23.tinypic.com/158bhhi.jpg
:whistling::supergrin:

Those who bash HK, usually do so because they can't afford one and making fun of them makes them feel better about buying a Block.

NEOH212
10-08-2011, 08:51
For starters, HK would have to do away with their funky mag releases.

This is the one gripe that I have with most of the HK's that I have fired and owned. That darned mag release just digs into my strong hand middle finger something fierce! I find myself having to change my grip to accommodate the mag release and the safety/decocker lever on the pistols that have it. My P30 is the only HK that I don't have these issues with.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 09:50
Those who bash HK, usually do so because they can't afford one and making fun of them makes them feel better about buying a Block.

It must be miserable to go through life with girly hands, no sense of humor, and a cry baby attitude.

Cav
10-08-2011, 09:56
Those who bash HK, usually do so because they can't afford one and making fun of them makes them feel better about buying a Block.

I own a USP, USP Tactical, Mark 23, H&K 91's, and owned a VP70 and P7M8. In the Military I carried a HK45 and shot the UMP (on of my buddies in 2003 when we were in Iraq got to test the G8 or what ever it was for the Military and it failed to perform, then H&K pulled any and all photo's of the failed weapons and threatened to sue if people posted pics of the split barrels and malfunctions), in Law Enforcement the MP5 has done well, but I would take an Colt M4 Cabine over a MP5 if given the option.

My biggest gripe with H&K is their design/marketing/sales are idiots.

Lets look at the MK23. It was neat. It never got used. Why? It was not practical. A Beretta or Sig with a can worked just a good and was much easier to pack. The MK23 did not come with night sights. The Magazines were made only for use with the MK23, but a civi USP could use MK23 mags. Now think about that. You make a weapon for the Military. Rather than make the Military weapon to where it can accept ready avaliable civilian mags, you make Military magazines that fit in any civilian weapon. IMHO make the mags the same, or make the Civilian mags fit the Military use, as when things are needed H&K saying we are out of stock, and parts cant be found, is sad for a new Military weapon. Now as I said, I own a few H&K's. H&K sold the Mark 23 with a statement that the trigger was a match grade trigger (it was marketed that way for a few years, and like the last year they sold them they changed the sales book). Well my Tactical came with a match like trigger, my Mark 23 trigger flat out sucks for $2.5K pistol. I called H&K and they said it was mistake to advertise the match trigger as none of them had a match like trigger installed. They would not even offer a trigger job or tune up for me. The trigger pull, travel, reset on the Mark 23/MK23 is not great at all. The finish used changed a few times. The parts break to often for a Military system. It is to large and bulky to get any real use out of it. Put a can on it and a LAM, and you might as well put on a buttstock or get a sub gun. then every few years H&K finds some parts and makes a few more Mark 23 to sell, knowing they really do not support them. The $70 magazines have hard plastic base plates, that break when they hit the hard ground. This a offensive weapon, as anyone that owens one should be offended that H&K could not design it better, I know I could have.

I can afford them, and I have used them, and I own a few. I gave up buying the "next great H&K" as none were ever great, they were just o.k. For the price of a H&K, I look back and think people are fools to spend that much on aso so weapon.

Oh and the reason my PD all has issued Glock's, is we had two H&K USP's that when decocked, sent rounds out. This was indoors when we used do weapon inspections. The weapons were shipped to the factory for inspection, and they were set up wrong, from the factory.

IMHO H&K is over hyped, where Glocks are under rated.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 10:07
I own a USP, USP Tactical, Mark 23, H&K 91's, and owned a VP70 and P7M8. In the Military I carried a HK45 and shot the UMP (on of my buddies in 2003 when we were in Iraq got to test the G8 or what ever it was for the Military and it failed to perform, then H&K pulled any and all photo's of the failed weapons and threatened to sue if people posted pics of the split barrels and malfunctions), in Law Enforcement the MP5 has done well, but I would take an Colt M4 Cabine over a MP5 if given the option.

My biggest gripe with H&K is their design/marketing/sales are idiots.

Lets look at the MK23. It was neat. It never got used. Why? It was not practical. A Beretta or Sig with a can worked just a good and was much easier to pack. The MK23 did not come with night sights. The Magazines were made only for use with the MK23, but a civi USP could use MK23 mags. Now think about that. You make a weapon for the Military. Rather than make the Military weapon to where it can accept ready avaliable civilian mags, you make Military magazines that fit in any civilian weapon. IMHO make the mags the same, or make the Civilian mags fit the Military use, as when things are needed H&K saying we are out of stock, and parts cant be found, is sad for a new Military weapon. Now as I said, I own a few H&K's. H&K sold the Mark 23 with a statement that the trigger was a match grade trigger (it was marketed that way for a few years, and like the last year they sold them they changed the sales book). Well my Tactical came with a match like trigger, my Mark 23 trigger flat out sucks for $2.5K pistol. I called H&K and they said it was mistake to advertise the match trigger as none of them had a match like trigger installed. They would not even offer a trigger job or tune up for me. The trigger pull, travel, reset on the Mark 23/MK23 is not great at all. The finish used changed a few times. The parts break to often for a Military system. It is to large and bulky to get any real use out of it. Put a can on it and a LAM, and you might as well put on a buttstock or get a sub gun. then every few years H&K finds some parts and makes a few more Mark 23 to sell, knowing they really do not support them. The $70 magazines have hard plastic base plates, that break when they hit the hard ground. This a offensive weapon, as anyone that owens one should be offended that H&K could not design it better, I know I could have.

I can afford them, and I have used them, and I own a few. I gave up buying the "next great H&K" as none were ever great, they were just o.k. For the price of a H&K, I look back and think people are fools to spend that much on aso so weapon.

Oh and the reason my PD all has issued Glock's, is we had two H&K USP's that when decocked, sent rounds out. This was indoors when we used do weapon inspections. The weapons were shipped to the factory for inspection, and they were set up wrong, from the factory.

IMHO H&K is over hyped, where Glocks are under rated.

Now don't you go bringin logic and real world experience into a mrssurfboard anti Glock thread!

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 10:54
I own a USP, USP Tactical, Mark 23, H&K 91's, and owned a VP70 and P7M8. In the Military I carried a HK45 and shot the UMP (on of my buddies in 2003 when we were in Iraq got to test the G8 or what ever it was for the Military and it failed to perform, then H&K pulled any and all photo's of the failed weapons and threatened to sue if people posted pics of the split barrels and malfunctions), in Law Enforcement the MP5 has done well, but I would take an Colt M4 Cabine over a MP5 if given the option.

My biggest gripe with H&K is their design/marketing/sales are idiots.

Lets look at the MK23. It was neat. It never got used. Why? It was not practical. A Beretta or Sig with a can worked just a good and was much easier to pack. The MK23 did not come with night sights. The Magazines were made only for use with the MK23, but a civi USP could use MK23 mags. Now think about that. You make a weapon for the Military. Rather than make the Military weapon to where it can accept ready avaliable civilian mags, you make Military magazines that fit in any civilian weapon. IMHO make the mags the same, or make the Civilian mags fit the Military use, as when things are needed H&K saying we are out of stock, and parts cant be found, is sad for a new Military weapon. Now as I said, I own a few H&K's. H&K sold the Mark 23 with a statement that the trigger was a match grade trigger (it was marketed that way for a few years, and like the last year they sold them they changed the sales book). Well my Tactical came with a match like trigger, my Mark 23 trigger flat out sucks for $2.5K pistol. I called H&K and they said it was mistake to advertise the match trigger as none of them had a match like trigger installed. They would not even offer a trigger job or tune up for me. The trigger pull, travel, reset on the Mark 23/MK23 is not great at all. The finish used changed a few times. The parts break to often for a Military system. It is to large and bulky to get any real use out of it. Put a can on it and a LAM, and you might as well put on a buttstock or get a sub gun. then every few years H&K finds some parts and makes a few more Mark 23 to sell, knowing they really do not support them. The $70 magazines have hard plastic base plates, that break when they hit the hard ground. This a offensive weapon, as anyone that owens one should be offended that H&K could not design it better, I know I could have.

I can afford them, and I have used them, and I own a few. I gave up buying the "next great H&K" as none were ever great, they were just o.k. For the price of a H&K, I look back and think people are fools to spend that much on aso so weapon.

Oh and the reason my PD all has issued Glock's, is we had two H&K USP's that when decocked, sent rounds out. This was indoors when we used do weapon inspections. The weapons were shipped to the factory for inspection, and they were set up wrong, from the factory.

IMHO H&K is over hyped, where Glocks are under rated.

Nightsights don't come on H&Ks because they are not allowed in Germany. Second, any gun can blow up, there are hundreds of "blown" Glock pictures out there and third any gun, I say again any gun, can malfunction. Even Glocks. Gen 4s are a testament to that. Even previous models fail, just read GNGing to see that.

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 10:55
It must be miserable to go through life with girly hands, no sense of humor, and a cry baby attitude.

:rofl: Bounty Hunter = Wanabe Cop

Cav
10-08-2011, 11:06
Nightsights don't come on H&Ks because they are not allowed in Germany. Second, any gun can blow up, there are hundreds of "blown" Glock pictures out there and third any gun, I say again any gun, can malfunction. Even Glocks. Gen 4s are a testament to that. Even previous models fail, just read GNGing to see that.

Sig and others have night sights. My H&K's have US markings (want to say from two different states that did the import), so I would think they could have had night sights, as we have mounted a good number of H&K brand night sights. Yet there are none for the Military MK23 and high end H&K's dont have them.

Many Military test guns fail. But I never saw a place that went so far out of there way to cover up things, or market things so bad (H&K has many mistakes in what they put out). H&K tries to get Military and Police deals. They do little to offer good things to the general public. They count on people over paying for things and do not try to get a good solid product.

There older weapons IMHO are much better than their new weapons, be it a pistol, rifle, or grenade launcher. I dont get it, other than H&K has found a way to get lots of tax payer money to do tests in VA.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 11:06
:rofl: Bounty Hunter = Wanabe Cop

:rofl:whiny HK crybaby fanboy=mrssurfboard

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n630/Ingrid_Broek/baby-cry.gif

Sam Spade
10-08-2011, 11:17
Have you even picked up a H&K pistol lately?? LEM triggers are available on most models.

As suspected, many of the people answering here have never touched or shot a H&K pistol based on their answers, pretty much what I expected.

Au contraire, mon ami.

I was issued a USP. I carried it, qualified with it and dumped it for a Glock as soon as I could. I was a firearms instructor while we still had USPs, and had a small part in our transition to Glocks. I watched the scores rise, watched the troubles with detailing and screwed up selector plates and silly magazines releases dwindle away. I'm now watching a fair part of southern AZ transition to Gen 4 G22s with no drama.

HK built their entire LE rep on the MP5. The joy never really carried over to their handguns, and IMNSHO, it still hasn't.

razdog76
10-08-2011, 11:28
As suspected, many of the people answering here have never touched or shot a H&K pistol based on their answers, pretty much what I expected.

I suppose if you want an analysis, I can do that too. From the user perspective, the platforms H&K has produced after the P7 series have been overly large. The shape and texture is pretty good though.

From the manufacturing perspective, the ability to have a variety of trigger systems is a plus, because it allows products to be submitted to whatever the contract specifies. By keeping parts and servicing exclusive to the factory is okay for an agency that does not allow anyone but a "certified" armorer work on their firearms.

For other agencies this creates a problem, because if the gun breaks, then the officer must requal with another before hitting the streets again. How many extra duty pistols lay around in the armory at your agency? Unless it is large, probably not too many.

I think both HK, and Sig are suffering from some of the same issues. They have not thought about what the market is demanding. Instead, they produce what they think the market should want, and then try to tout previous quality, accuracy... Both finally produced a heavy DAO version, and then reluctantly came out with a lighter version (DAK/LEM), and now HK has a lighter LEM version. What was Sig thinking with the P250, P238 and P290 designs? HK finally came out with the P2000, and P30 series.

No matter how you cut it, pistols that do not have consistent trigger pulls are generally not shot as well as those that do (Glocks, M&P's, 1911's). Sure it can be looked at as a training issue, but how much time and money is necessary to train the problem away?

So, even if both Glock and HK produced pistols for the same price, I would still lean to the Glock because although I wish the grip angle was closer to that of a 1911, the size, availability of parts, and ease of servicing the Glock will win.

Hell, I will bet that even Boxer, Feinstein, and Schumer could all be trained as a Glock armorer in an afternoon.:supergrin:

For you, the features and ergos of the HK are great, but that may not be what the majority of the market may want. If Glock and HK had an indiscretion, and spawned a child with the best features of both it sure would look remarkably like a Walter PPQ. For a gun that has only been on the market since March, they sure seem to be getting attention.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 11:38
Au contraire, mon ami.

I was issued a USP. I carried it, qualified with it and dumped it for a Glock as soon as I could. I was a firearms instructor while we still had USPs, and had a small part in our transition to Glocks. I watched the scores rise, watched the troubles with detailing and screwed up selector plates and silly magazines releases dwindle away. I'm now watching a fair part of southern AZ transition to Gen 4 G22s with no drama.

HK built their entire LE rep on the MP5. The joy never really carried over to their handguns, and IMNSHO, it still hasn't.

First Cav, now Sam Spade offer explanations in detail why they prefer Glocks to the overhyped, over priced HK's. Whats this site coming to? HK's have to be better, they're more expensive, less utilized by LEO's and civilians, replacement parts are harder to come by, they're probably close to the last manufacturer that holsters options are made available for, 437 different mushy trigger setups, safety/decocker/both/neither, whats not to love?
Another mrssurfboard thread not going as planned.:rofl:

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 11:49
First Cav, now Sam Spade offer explanations in detail why they prefer Glocks to the overhyped, over priced HK's. Whats this site coming to? HK's have to be better, they're more expensive, less utilized by LEO's and civilians, replacement parts are harder to come by, they're probably close to the last manufacturer that holsters options are made available for, 437 different mushy trigger setups, safety/decocker/both/neither, whats not to love?
Another mrssurfboard thread not going as planned.:rofl:

Could you be anymore a fanboy? They at least site reasons, you just make fanboy jabs. Typical.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 12:13
Could you be anymore a fanboy? They at least site reasons, you just make fanboy jabs. Typical.

Fanboy? Hardly, I've been critical of Glock and their gen 4 mishaps, and I did list the reasons I don't want an HK. Lately, I've been recommending people look at the M&P line as well as Glock. Would a fanboy recommend another company as a viable option as well? I may only own Glocks, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize other guns as being good choices. I just haven't found one that does everything a Glock does and more, making it worth while to change carry guns for good. If the M&P trigger was improved by S&W without doing the APEX upgrade, I would take a long hard look at getting a full size and compact M&P. And yes, I have fired them, and am not just basing my dislike of the M&P trigger based on internet reports.

You start these threads, then get all sorts of butt hurt when they don't go your way, and people don't fall in line to agree with you that Glocks are crap and HK's are formed from the blessed tears of angels. Typical, par for the course when mrssurfboard is involved.

Fill this out, and turn it in. Make sure your grievances are well documented.
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/SBR2340/butthurt_report_form.jpg

grecco
10-08-2011, 12:47
Owning several examples of both,
With out a doubt HK,
Better material,better design, better everything.
You really dont see the same amounts of recalls, eh mean upgrades on HK as you do with glocks.
Both go bang, but there is a huge difference....
There really isnt much to customize on Hk pistols,
Glocks on the other hand, have an entire industry dedicated to male perferction more perfect.

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 13:34
Fanboy? Hardly, I've been critical of Glock and their gen 4 mishaps, and I did list the reasons I don't want an HK. Lately, I've been recommending people look at the M&P line as well as Glock. Would a fanboy recommend another company as a viable option as well? I may only own Glocks, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize other guns as being good choices. I just haven't found one that does everything a Glock does and more, making it worth while to change carry guns for good. If the M&P trigger was improved by S&W without doing the APEX upgrade, I would take a long hard look at getting a full size and compact M&P. And yes, I have fired them, and am not just basing my dislike of the M&P trigger based on internet reports.

You start these threads, then get all sorts of butt hurt when they don't go your way, and people don't fall in line to agree with you that Glocks are crap and HK's are formed from the blessed tears of angels. Typical, par for the course when mrssurfboard is involved.

Fill this out, and turn it in. Make sure your grievances are well documented.
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/SBR2340/butthurt_report_form.jpg

Really? How old are you?

4949shooter
10-08-2011, 13:58
49/49 sorry for your loss.

I thank you, Sir.

steveksux
10-08-2011, 14:33
They'd still be overpriced... :whistling::rofl:

Randy

Patchman
10-08-2011, 14:33
Glocks on the other hand, have an entire industry dedicated to male perferction more perfect.

Wow, I didn't know Glock was the OEM for those "things" that help make guys go from a 9mm to a 10mm, if you know what I mean. :whistling:

razdog76
10-08-2011, 14:42
Wow, I didn't know Glock was the OEM for those "things" that help make guys go from a 9mm to a 10mm, if you know what I mean. :whistling:

Well, when you really need to kill it.:supergrin:

BailRecoveryAgent
10-08-2011, 15:26
Really? How old are you?

31, you?

DaBigBR
10-08-2011, 21:27
mrsurfboard and BailRecovery Agent:

You're both acting like jackass children. Knock it off. There's plenty of that crap on other parts of this site without bringing it in to Cop Talk.

kurt1305
10-08-2011, 21:29
I'd own more HK's. I prefer the ergos and single piece triggers over the Glocks. Glock makes an excellent pistol, I just prefer the HK.

mrsurfboard
10-08-2011, 21:30
mrsurfboard and BailRecovery Agent:

You're both acting like jackass children. Knock it off. There's plenty of that crap on other parts of this site without bringing it in to Cop Talk.

That was not my intention. BRA decided it was easier to name call then provide any intelligent opinion on the topic.

Mayhem like Me
10-08-2011, 22:11
well since I have owned many of each and am or have been an H&K, Glock and Sig armorer I would go with a mix, probably an HK45 for duty I woudl also have a 27 and a 23....

H&K has the best magazines of any maker ....

The materials fit and finish of their products is second to none.
Sig classic series guns are very close...

Cav
10-08-2011, 23:31
H&K has the best magazines of any maker ....



Funny as when I look at Glock vs H&K mags, I find the Glock mags to be lighter, smaller, hold more ammo, and give a better round count, besides having base plates that dont crack when they hit the ground and springs that seem to last longer and feed better.

Thats just my view though.

Now H&K makes some good AR mags.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-09-2011, 01:06
That was not my intention. BRA decided it was easier to name call then provide any intelligent opinion on the topic.

:rofl:Is that your way of making a "But he started it" response seem less childish?


Anyway, mrssurfboard, our banter has been fun, and I won't crap in your thread anymore. My attempt at humor was obviously offensive to you and I should have dropped it then. I apologize for any inconvenience.

Good night, err, Good morning I guess it is.:wavey:

Cochese
10-09-2011, 01:47
I was issued and carried an HK USP in .40 for a while. I recall is was a DA/SA with a decocker, no safety. I seriously detest .40 but when they switched us to Sig 226 DAK 40s, I bought my 2 year old HK for $375.

I converted it to SA and added a safety. I slapped a light on it and made it a nightstand gun.

I tried to like it.

I sold it for $750 and bought my pop a 1911.

I switched to a G34 when I left Texas and my scores increased dramatically from the HK and Sig. They went perfect when I moved to a 1911.

I tried to like the HK. Even a $375 USP wasn't worth it to me.

MakeMineA10mm
10-09-2011, 06:36
When I handled the then-new HK45 a few years ago, I fell in love with the grip. Bought one of the first 1000 (actually lower serial number than that) imported with the intent to put in an LEM trigger and carry it on duty. Trouble is, whenever I shoot that wonderful-feeling grip, at about the 40-50 round point, I start getting a carpal tunnel numbness in my wrist and forearm. Might be a deal-killer...

On the other hand, a retired former-instructor was at the range for retirement quals the other day and let me shoot his taurus 24/7 in 45, and I must admit, it is an amazing design and cheaper than a Glock (about 1/3 the price of an HK). If I was looking at replacing all of our sidearms, that pistol would get a thorough wring-out.

Mayhem like Me
10-09-2011, 08:12
Funny as when I look at Glock vs H&K mags, I find the Glock mags to be lighter, smaller, hold more ammo, and give a better round count, besides having base plates that dont crack when they hit the ground and springs that seem to last longer and feed better.

Thats just my view though.

Now H&K makes some good AR mags.
Glock magazines are disposable and have junk followers That fail ,spring life is bad as well you dont see high volume glock mag users with old glock mags, they fall apart.whats
follower number are they at on the 40's 8 or 9?

BailRecoveryAgent
10-09-2011, 08:38
Glock magazines are disposable and have junk followers That fail ,spring life is bad as well you dont see high volume glock mag users with old glock mags, they fall apart.whats
follower number are they at on the 40's 8 or 9?

How old is old and how much is high volume use? I have the two Glock mags from 1997 that came with my G23 and they have lots of rounds through them, and I'm pretty sure they have the original springs and followers in them. They are now spare range mags, I bought new ones for carry purposes.

Just curious, what usually fails as far as the followers are concerned? Do they break or just get wore out prematurely?

I'm not doubting any experience you've had with mag failures, just curious about the details.

Mayhem like Me
10-09-2011, 08:52
How old is old and how much is high volume use? I have the two Glock mags from 1997 that came with my G23 and they have lots of rounds through them, and I'm pretty sure they have the original springs and followers in them. They are now spare range mags, I bought new ones for carry purposes.

Just curious, what usually fails as far as the followers are concerned? Do they break or just get wore out prematurely?

I'm not doubting any experience you've had with mag failures, just curious about the details.

I shoot over 1 thousand rounds a year, the followers wear out and won't lock back springs go on our guns with lights at about 2 years causing failure to feed I'm on my 7th set of mags I have a shoebox full of range mags...

they are what they are cheap and reliable when new, hard use wears them out.

if your mags are that old go to a GSSF match and have the followers changed out for some newer ones..newest are 8 or 9 can't remember ..

Chico Bill
10-09-2011, 08:58
I've owned two P7's, a USP45 Tactical, USP45, two USP45C's, and a P2000SK.

They were all nice guns and functioned perfectly with duty ammo (the .45's didn't like our training ammo) but I could never really get used to the "feel" of the USPs, the P7's were, though small, a pain to carry, and the P2000SK was my favorite of the bunch and I regret selling it, but I do like my M&P9C more.

I've owned two Glocks...A 23 (the reason I joined this forum twelve years or so ago) and a 17. I liked the 23 but it wasn't approved and I never shot it as well as my other pistols (mainly Berettas and 1911s at that time) so I sold it. The Glock 17 was (shockingly) unreliable and I just couldn't get into it. I'd still like to pick up a G26 or G19 someday, but I've become an M&P fanboy so I'm in no rush for another Glock.

If HK was the same price as Glock I don't think it would change a whole bunch of their sales. People either like them or they don't.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-09-2011, 09:14
I shoot over 1 thousand rounds a year, the followers wear out and won't lock back springs go on our guns with lights at about 2 years causing failure to feed I'm on my 7th set of mags I have a shoebox full of range mags...

they are what they are cheap and reliable when new, hard use wears them out.

if your mags are that old go to a GSSF match and have the followers changed out for some newer ones..newest are 8 or 9 can't remember ..

1000-2500 a year is probably in the ballpark of how much I shoot in the last couple years. Since they're range mags, I'll just leave em' be for now. Are you saying your guns with mounted lights are harder on springs than guns without lights? I've never owned or used a weapon mounted light so I have no experience with them.

NMPOPS
10-09-2011, 23:52
I shoot over 1 thousand rounds a year, the followers wear out and won't lock back springs go on our guns with lights at about 2 years causing failure to feed I'm on my 7th set of mags I have a shoebox full of range mags...

they are what they are cheap and reliable when new, hard use wears them out.

if your mags are that old go to a GSSF match and have the followers changed out for some newer ones..newest are 8 or 9 can't remember ..

I retired from the PD a few years ago, but for several years prior to retirement I was the lead firearms instructor and as such was able to put about 3000 to 5000 rounds downrange in my 3 primary pistols, a Glock 23 (Department issued) a G-19 and a G-26 (both personal weapons). I have eight (8) 15 round G19 mage, three of which were made prior to the 1994 ban. They have new followers and have had one spring change in 17 years of use. They are scratched and battered but work just as well as the day I got them. I am more than satisfied with the quality of Glock magazines,

Cochese
10-10-2011, 00:30
If HK made a 1911 I would buy the **** out of it.

SAR
10-10-2011, 00:54
I'm a big fan of HKs. If I was given my choice, I would carry a 1911 first, an HK second, SIG third, and Glock fourth. I have multiple examples of each. I pretty much ranked my choices in order of accuracy (for me). At 7 yards, I can unload a magazine from my Springfield TRP with rounds all touching. The HK and SIG can deliver a magazine of rounds about the size of a tennis ball, and the Glock maybe a six or seven inch spread. I'm putting about 500 rounds a week (2,000 rounds a month) downrange, and I'm fairly consistent with the results each time.

Oh and I'm not firing off a bench rest or anything. This is isosceles, off hand at a good combat pace. I am not really sure why the Glock is the least accurate platform for me-- I am shooting a Glock 17, 20, 21, 23, 27, 30, and 35. With the 1911s I am shooting a Springfield TRP, a Series 70, an Officer's Model, and a Delta Elite. With the HKs, I am shooting an HK USP, and an HK P2000. The only SIG I have is a P229 Elite. But yeah... even though I have more Glocks than anything else, I am just not as accurate with them.

Agent6-3/8
10-10-2011, 06:29
Of the two I'd still stick with Glock. The only HK I've fool with however, is the USP 45. Nice psitol, but I hate DA/SA triggers and it felt too fat at the top of the grip for my liking. Made my thumbs forward grip uncomfortable. Maybe I'd like some of their other designs. :dunno:

(on a side note back in reality: I refuse to pay the price of a good all steel pistol for a plastic fantastic)

buddah
10-10-2011, 07:17
HK treats it's customers like red headed step children. They have terrible customer support. Although they make a fine weapon it is over engineered. I Carry a P2000 .40 S&W as issued duty gun and went to armorer school in Sterling ,VA. The gun is a pain in the butt to take-down and re-assemble compared to a glock. The P2000 paddle type mag release is also of the same design as the P7 M8/M13. They would have to come down in price alot for it to dominate Glock as King of L.E pistols. I still don't get why so many Fed. agencies love the Sigs.

CW Mock
10-10-2011, 09:21
If I could afford one, I'd go buy an HK45 right now, or maybe a P30. I really like the HK45, it feels and looks good to me, and carrying it single action is a plus.

Just can't afford it, and that comes to the crux of the HK problem - they are WAAAAY overpriced.

Hack
10-10-2011, 09:35
I like the simplicity of a Glock. 'Nuff said.

dooga
10-10-2011, 09:40
The USP was an outstanding handgun that everybody loved but me.
Well-stated



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Kadetklapp
10-10-2011, 09:44
I have a USP 45 in my safe. That's where it will stay- in my safe.

I love the gun....but I trust the Glock more, always will.

Put it this way, much like an old pickup truck, the Glock is what I use to go "do work."

The HK is the Masaratti i use to go to dinner parties with.

dooga
10-10-2011, 09:47
IMHO H&K is over hyped, where Glocks are under rated.
Love that quote!

dooga
10-10-2011, 09:54
I shoot over 1 thousand rounds a year...
That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Should I be concerned?

BailRecoveryAgent
10-10-2011, 10:34
That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Should I be concerned?

Some people shoot 10,000 a year, some shoot 1000. Quality of shots down range trumps quantity.

4949shooter
10-10-2011, 10:40
That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Should I be concerned?

I think that was a typo.

Mayhem like Me
10-10-2011, 11:05
I retired from the PD a few years ago, but for several years prior to retirement I was the lead firearms instructor and as such was able to put about 3000 to 5000 rounds downrange in my 3 primary pistols, a Glock 23 (Department issued) a G-19 and a G-26 (both personal weapons). I have eight (8) 15 round G19 mage, three of which were made prior to the 1994 ban. They have new followers and have had one spring change in 17 years of use. They are scratched and battered but work just as well as the day I got them. I am more than satisfied with the quality of Glock magazines,

wouldn't know about the nines we run 40's and we have alot of magazine issues

Mayhem like Me
10-10-2011, 11:10
That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Should I be concerned?

its about 1k a month sorry... typo yes
no don't be concerned if they work , on the 40 mags they get beat up and followers tend to wear out .
The springs are a known issue on 40 caliber guns with lights you need good magazine springs because the frame flexes and sometimes causes problems. Wolff extra power springs fixed them up ...
My issued 35 has about 90-100k rounds through it and the only original parts left are the barrel slide and frame... the barrel still holds a decent group but my 23 and 27 shoot tighter.

dooga
10-10-2011, 11:43
Some people shoot 10,000 a year, some shoot 1000. Quality of shots down range trumps quantity.I wasn't dissing the number of rounds you shoot, I was worrying about my magazines! :)

BailRecoveryAgent
10-10-2011, 11:48
I wasn't dissing the number of rounds you shoot, I was worrying about my magazines! :)

:thumbsup:

Cav
10-10-2011, 16:34
Swatbwana about how many rounds do you put through the H&K and how does it hold up? I had no luck with Beretta, 1911, and H&K mags lasting with out getting new mags or replacing with after market springs. About how many rounds/year do your H&K mag last?

In 2002 I was issued a Glock 23 with three mags. It was used by at least two officers before I got it. About 4 months ago I turned it in for a Glock 22 4th Gen. I did buy two extra mags for the 23 and one was not used much and was my main duty mag. In those 9 years I shot the Glock quite a bit. The slide was worn, metal shavings and all. I was amazed it still worked. The fame was fine, the barrel good, but the side was worn out. Magazines did there job and I never once had a jam with that weapon.

Now I dont have the slide lock back often if at all, unless just shooting for the heck of it to empty a mag. Most times I swap mags, with a round still in the chamber. My PD went at least 10 years once with no magazines swapped out for Glocks FWIW. Our AR's and MP5's are another story, they get swapped every year or two.

Mayhem like Me
10-11-2011, 13:01
Usp 45 MAGS I HAD 50 k through them on original springs..Mp5 magazines at least that.

Spring changed with Wolff springs and they are still rinning USP 40 compact only about 20K and no issues yet.. the magazines and followers have no problems.

TheGreatGonzo
10-11-2011, 14:12
If asked to choose between the 9mm Glock and the 9mm HK...I'll take the S&W 686 3", thank you very much.:supergrin: