shoulder holsters are scary [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Andy W
10-08-2011, 22:06
Okay, so I'm a janitor at my college's football stadium. As you may know, a Big 12 football game requires all sorts of staff on hand, including many police officers, both uniformed and in plain clothes. Long story short, I was walking down a hallway in the press box behind a plain clothes police officer when I noticed I had a Glock 19 pointed pretty much right at my face. The holser had the weapon pointed upwards at maybe a 45 degree angle under the officer's left shoulder. I know there was next to no chance of the weapon going off but it was still kinda startling at first. Isn't that one of the main critiques of the shoulder rig, that it points a loaded weapon at everyone behind you or possibly your own chest, especially when you draw?

misunderestimated
10-08-2011, 22:38
Okay, so I'm a janitor at my college's football stadium. As you may know, a Big 12 football game requires all sorts of staff on hand, including many police officers, both uniformed and in plain clothes. Long story short, I was walking down a hallway in the press box behind a plain clothes police officer when I noticed I had a Glock 19 pointed pretty much right at my face. The holser had the weapon pointed upwards at maybe a 45 degree angle under the officer's left shoulder. I know there was next to no chance of the weapon going off but it was still kinda startling at first. Isn't that one of the main critiques of the shoulder rig, that it points a loaded weapon at everyone behind you or possibly your own chest, especially when you draw?

Yea I understand. A couple of years ago at a range guy had a AD while inserting his firearm in his shoulder holster. I am now petrified when I see some one trying to re holster a gun in one.I recommend they take it off point it down range.Re-holster then put it back on.

I use one I keep one bed side in case I have to run out of the house in my pagamas and need to have a holstered firearm

Andy W
10-08-2011, 22:51
Another thing i didn't mention at first was that this cop was a women. First of all, I didn't even know cops still used shoulder holsters. Second, I've never seen a women use one. I thouhgt it was a mens thing. I guess it makes sense though. The way women are built could make prolonged hip carry uncomfortable. No, she wasn't that hot. She was middle aged and a little chubby.

Warp
10-09-2011, 00:07
Okay, so I'm a janitor at my college's football stadium. As you may know, a Big 12 football game requires all sorts of staff on hand, including many police officers, both uniformed and in plain clothes. Long story short, I was walking down a hallway in the press box behind a plain clothes police officer when I noticed I had a Glock 19 pointed pretty much right at my face. The holser had the weapon pointed upwards at maybe a 45 degree angle under the officer's left shoulder. I know there was next to no chance of the weapon going off but it was still kinda startling at first. Isn't that one of the main critiques of the shoulder rig, that it points a loaded weapon at everyone behind you or possibly your own chest, especially when you draw?

That is the problem I have with it. The holster/unholster movement is going to sweep a hell of an area. Small of back can be pretty bad too, though still not as wrong as a shoulder holster.

And you better not use a shoulder holster next to me at the range.

Batesmotel
10-09-2011, 00:18
There is a technique to properly draw from the shoulder rig that almost no one uses that will not sweep the area. You break leather, rotate straight down, keeping the gun straight down and finger off the trigger you cross it to the strong side to basically position #2 in a traditional hip draw where the support hand is now on the chest. From there you rotate forward (#3) then go to #4 where the hands come together. Sounds more complicated than it is. I usually see guys break leather then sweep past their own left arm and the entire left side of the range like they do in the movies.

It is harder to re-holster with out sweeping.

I love a shoulder rig but it is a different technique and I only practice is when I am alone in the desert, not at a populated range.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-09-2011, 01:17
Meh, the loaded, holstered gun pointing at me doesn't bother me, its no different when you are in a multi-story building carrying on your belt in a holster, the muzzle is pointed at the people on the floor beneath you.

Its the holstering and unholstering from a shoulder rig that makes me nervous when I see someone with one at the gravel pit or range. When people don't draw the way BatesMotel described it, they unwittingly muzzle sweep everyone on the side the gun is carried on.

The shoulder rig is not dangerous, the person not taking proper care when unholstering around other people is.

RussP
10-09-2011, 02:03
Meh, the loaded, holstered gun pointing at me doesn't bother me, its no different when you are in a multi-story building carrying on your belt in a holster, the muzzle is pointed at the people on the floor beneath you.

Its the holstering and unholstering from a shoulder rig that makes me nervous when I see someone with one at the gravel pit or range. When people don't draw the way BatesMotel described it, they unwittingly muzzle sweep everyone on the side the gun is carried on.

The shoulder rig is not dangerous, the person not taking proper care when unholstering around other people is.I had a really good response ready to post, but you said it better with fewer words. :wavey:

Gary1911A1
10-09-2011, 04:43
I'm fond of the Alessi Bodyguard and like to wear it when I'm driving a long period. I understand the OP's concerns though as most people don't know how to draw from one, let alone keep their fingers off the trigger.

AH.74
10-09-2011, 07:28
Another thing i didn't mention at first was that this cop was a women. First of all, I didn't even know cops still used shoulder holsters. Second, I've never seen a women use one. I thouhgt it was a mens thing. I guess it makes sense though. The way women are built could make prolonged hip carry uncomfortable. No, she wasn't that hot. She was middle aged and a little chubby.

Woman. It's "a woman" in the singular.

You thought it was a "mens thing"? Shoulder holsters are "scary"?

Come on now. Since when does any carry method have anything to do with gender?

This is so much of a non-issue it's not even worth considering. Was the officer's hand anywhere near the gun? If not, there was not only "next to" no chance of the gun going off, there was NO CHANCE AT ALL.

How do you carry your guns, if you do so? Is there any time at all when the gun, while in its holster, has the muzzle directed at any part of your body? A shoulder holster is no different from that. Trigger covered? Non-issue.

Andy W
10-09-2011, 09:42
Woman. It's "a woman" in the singular.

You thought it was a "mens thing"? Shoulder holsters are "scary"?

Come on now. Since when does any carry method have anything to do with gender?

This is so much of a non-issue it's not even worth considering. Was the officer's hand anywhere near the gun? If not, there was not only "next to" no chance of the gun going off, there was NO CHANCE AT ALL.

How do you carry your guns, if you do so? Is there any time at all when the gun, while in its holster, has the muzzle directed at any part of your body? A shoulder holster is no different from that. Trigger covered? Non-issue.

Oh, don't be a grammar nazi. I'm usually pretty good about watching my GPS (grammar, punctuation, spelling) but considering I had just spent 10 hours walking back and forth through hallways and several flights of stairs, I think a few errors are acceptable. Also, considering I spend 90% of my time on a college campus, I don't carry my guns or even have them in my posession. They're all at my mom's house.

As for shoulder holsters relating to gender, it was just an ovservation I made. I had never seen a women use a shoulder holster before. I guess I got it from the movies more than anything. In the movies, the stereotypical middle aged, overweight, chain smoking male detective always carries his gun in a shoulder holster and that image has stuck with me.

I know the weapon was safe while in the holster. However, can you really say there is absolutely no chance of something happening or not happening? Maybe a 99.9999999% chance nothing can happen but there's always that tiny, almost microscopic sliver of possibility that some freak accident can happen.

However, I wasn't really that worried about it at the time. My reaction was more like, "hey, she's carrying a G19 in a shoulder holster. That's interesting. The muzzle is also staring right at me. I bet if I was any closer I might be able to see if she has a round in the chamber" I guess scary was a bad way to describe it; that is, unless she suddenly had to draw her gun. Then I would have other things to worry about than whether or not she swept me with the muzzle.

dakrat
10-09-2011, 12:28
I understand the feeling. I gives me the hibby jibbies when a loaded firearm is pointing at me. I see this a lot when deployed. before entering the dining facilities, firearms must be unloaded. there is always a line and it sucks to be behind the guy with a shoulder holster....

Deaf Smith
10-09-2011, 13:03
Drawing and holstering a shoulder rig, especially a horizontal or upside down design, is something to be practised with a DUMMY gun till you have it right. And use a video camera to record your technique so you can see any safety violations.

It's alot harder to learn than a belt rig.

Deaf

Spiffums
10-09-2011, 13:09
Actually women wouldn't have near the hard time as men carrying with a shoulder rig. They are trained to not notice the straps of a bra cutting into their shoulders at an early age.

Hour13
10-09-2011, 14:02
I think it's more of a "mind" thing. Whether or not there's ANY chance of an AD happening, it's always going to be disconcerting staring at the business end of a loaded gun. Regardless of any risk. or lack there of, our brain tells us "this is where you DON'T want to be".

I've had a Miami Classis rig that I recently retired from duty(gave to a friend). I ride a bike, so I love shoulder rigs, they're to most comfortable & secure way to carry while riding IMHO.

Galco will put together any set-up you want, my next rig will be as follows...

MCII harness, I like the wider straps.

MCI mag holder.

Their "VHS"(vertical) holster.

In black.
:supergrin:

Lakota
10-09-2011, 18:07
Among the most rudimentary - and absolute - factors of firearms safety is not to point a loaded firearm at anyone or thing you do not intend to shoot or destroy.

Horizontal shoulder holsters continuously contradict that rudimentary rule.

The rationalization that vertical shoulder holsters are comparably dangerous 'because they constantly point at the floor, which might result in an AD that goes through the floor to impact people on the lower floor' is not at all comparable to the direct hazard imposed by the horizontally holstered firearm constantly sweeping everyone behind the shoulder holstered weapon.

In the setting of a weapon carried in a vertical shoulder holster, the floor itself factors in an (often completely impenetrable) obstacle of protection, while the horizontally carried shoulder holstered firearm presents a real (constantly unobstructed) possibility of an AD with no (however inadvertently incumbent) protection whatsoever. :whistling:

IMHO, this is not a matter of 'opinion', however unpopular it may be with the horizonal holster armed and/or advocating camp.

In summary, the entire issue of horizontal shoulder holster carry is functionally indefensible.

Every incident of accidental or reckless shooting is argument favoring those who would convulute the second Amendment and otherwise present arguments against the right of law abiding citizens to legally keep and carry firearms. For this (cardinal) reason, IMHO, horizontal shoulder holsters can and may be (reasonably) banned from use by anyone, certainly including LEOs.

Repeat: this post is not an objection against any portion of the spirit and law of the second Amendment, but rather, a motion to protect it from those who would opportune to oppose it. :wavey:

AH.74
10-09-2011, 19:03
Among the most rudimentary - and absolute - factors of firearms safety is not to point a loaded firearm at anyone or thing you do not intend to shoot or destroy.

Horizontal shoulder holsters continuously contradict that rudimentary rule.

The rationalization that vertical shoulder holsters are comparably dangerous 'because they constantly point at the floor, which might result in an AD that goes through the floor to impact people on the lower floor' is not at all comparable to the direct hazard imposed by the horizontally holstered firearm constantly sweeping everyone behind the shoulder holstered weapon.

In the setting of a weapon carried in a vertical shoulder holster, the floor itself factors in an (often completely impenetrable) obstacle of protection, while the horizontally carried shoulder holstered firearm presents a real (constantly unobstructed) possibility of an AD with no (however inadvertently incumbent) protection whatsoever. :whistling:

IMHO, this is not a matter of 'opinion', however unpopular it may be with the horizonal holster armed and/or advocating camp.

In summary, the entire issue of horizontal shoulder holster carry is functionally indefensible.

I completely disagree.

A holstered gun does not engage in the act of sweeping. It is not being held in a hand, therefore it is not being handled and there is no chance for it to be fired. A gun held in a hand can sweep someone because it is actually being handled and there is a chance for it be fired.

Do you use any holsters that at any time have the muzzle directed at any part of your body? For example, IWB holsters do this all the time. Do you consider that to be sweeping of your own body?

dakrat
10-09-2011, 19:25
Do you use any holsters that at any time have the muzzle directed at any part of your body? For example, IWB holsters do this all the time. Do you consider that to be sweeping of your own body?

people could care less if you sweep your own body part. the main concern here is sweeping other people. haven't you heard of stories about Joe gunsmith did a dremel job with his trigger and went fully automatic?

AH.74
10-09-2011, 19:33
people could care less if you sweep your own body part. the main concern here is sweeping other people. haven't you heard of stories about Joe gunsmith did a dremel job with his trigger and went fully automatic?

What does this have to do with the issue?

The gun is holstered. It's not being handled. Therefore no matter what has been done to the trigger, or not, it is irrelevant. It is not sweeping anyone. It will not go off by itself.

dakrat
10-09-2011, 19:43
The gun is holstered. It's not being handled. Therefore no matter what has been done to the trigger, or not, it is irrelevant. It is not sweeping anyone. It will not go off by itself.

not handled? how do you holster and unholster the pistol without you holding the pistol and pointing it someone behind you?

AH.74
10-09-2011, 19:53
not handled? how do you holster and unholster the pistol without you holding the pistol and pointing it someone behind you?

I have never had to take it out of the holster while out in public. Likewise, I have never had to reholster it while out on public.

I was addressing the use of them in general. Lakota above was speaking in general terms, as if the use of them overall was unsafe. As in, if I'm standing somewhere and there are people around and behind me, my gun is sweeping them as I walk around. That is what I am referring to.

Vanman2004b
10-09-2011, 20:53
Among the most rudimentary - and absolute - factors of firearms safety is not to point a loaded firearm at anyone or thing you do not intend to shoot or destroy.

Horizontal shoulder holsters continuously contradict that rudimentary rule.

The rationalization that vertical shoulder holsters are comparably dangerous 'because they constantly point at the floor, which might result in an AD that goes through the floor to impact people on the lower floor' is not at all comparable to the direct hazard imposed by the horizontally holstered firearm constantly sweeping everyone behind the shoulder holstered weapon.

In the setting of a weapon carried in a vertical shoulder holster, the floor itself factors in an (often completely impenetrable) obstacle of protection, while the horizontally carried shoulder holstered firearm presents a real (constantly unobstructed) possibility of an AD with no (however inadvertently incumbent) protection whatsoever. :whistling:

IMHO, this is not a matter of 'opinion', however unpopular it may be with the horizonal holster armed and/or advocating camp.

In summary, the entire issue of horizontal shoulder holster carry is functionally indefensible.

Every incident of accidental or reckless shooting is argument favoring those who would convulute the second Amendment and otherwise present arguments against the right of law abiding citizens to legally keep and carry firearms. For this (cardinal) reason, IMHO, horizontal shoulder holsters can and may be (reasonably) banned from use by anyone, certainly including LEOs.

Repeat: this post is not an objection against any portion of the spirit and law of the second Amendment, but rather, a motion to protect it from those who would opportune to oppose it. :wavey:

Not a popular opinion here, but you are correct. And I agree 100%.

Pocket holsters are the same. I would love to use one for the convenience, but do not want to point my weapon at whoever is seated across from me.

Four_T_Five
10-09-2011, 21:19
If female LEO's are in dressier type clothing, there are issues of their slacks usually not having belt loops. Also, they are typically cut higher on the hips, resulting in a belt/paddle holster canting inward. This can be uncomfortable as it hits the ribs, but also slower and awkward on the draw. Shoulder holsters for women are a logical work-around.

As for being concerned about a holstered weapon muzzling you... someone a couple years ago summed it up pretty well IMO. Their comment was, "would you jump out of the way of a parked car?" When I sit at my desk, if I move my right foot under my chair, the G21 on my waist is pointed at it. Some things sound worse than they really are IMO.

NEOH212
10-09-2011, 22:02
I have never been a fan of shoulder holsters, SOB or ankle holsters for various reasons.

For me, it's either strong side on the waistband for strong side inside the waistband.

HarleyGuy
10-09-2011, 22:34
Shoulder rigs can only point the muzzle of a gun in three directions:
Down, up, or horizontal (to the rear).

IMO, downward is by far the safest of the three, but if puts the butt of the gun in the highest position.

I've had shoulder rig for many years (for a large revolver) and I've only used it once. It requires you to wear a jacket or coat all of the time.

I hava friend who carries a two-gun rig and it doesn't worry me at all but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near somone who was using a shoulder holster on a range.

AH.74
10-10-2011, 06:29
Not a popular opinion here, but you are correct. And I agree 100%.

Pocket holsters are the same. I would love to use one for the convenience, but do not want to point my weapon at whoever is seated across from me.

I do not understand this point of view, at all really.

If the gun is holstered, and you are not touching it, and your finger is no where near the trigger (which is covered and inaccessible) where do you see the danger?

Chuck54
10-10-2011, 09:00
I find them uncomfortable and only use one when driving long distances.

HexHead
10-10-2011, 09:12
I have never had to take it out of the holster while out in public. Likewise, I have never had to reholster it while out on public.

I was addressing the use of them in general. Lakota above was speaking in general terms, as if the use of them overall was unsafe. As in, if I'm standing somewhere and there are people around and behind me, my gun is sweeping them as I walk around. That is what I am referring to.

If I have to pull my pistol from my shoulder holster in public, the people around me have bigger problems than whether or not I sweep them.

PhotoFeller
10-10-2011, 10:28
If I have to pull my pistol from my shoulder holster in public, the people around me have bigger problems than whether or not I sweep them.

Interesting and valid point.

All holsters that cover the trigger guard are fundamentally safe. It's the operator who introduces potential danger to the equation.

All firearms are deadly devises. All operators are potential killers through negligence, ignorance, fear-induced stress or having limited skills.

In general, most of us are too casual about carrying a gun for self defense; in fact, many of us represent a danger to the public. Only if we are well trained and practiced should we carry a weapon in Condition 1. This is especially true for shoulder holster carry.

Before the flames begin, I am an outspoken supporter for 2nd Amendment rights, for concealed carry in every state, for the unfettered ability to own guns to our hearts content. I just believe that we must all consciously acknowledge the lethality of our weapons beyond self defense and carry them in a manner that is consistent with our training and abilities. Shoulder holsters and Condition 1 are for operators possessing higher level skills than mine.

mike28w
10-10-2011, 10:33
This discussion is a worthwhile exercise because it keeps people thinking about safety.......

Unfortunately , I doubt there will be any agreement reached........

Guns are dangerous, bullets are dangerous, holsters are dangerous....there's not much in life that can't be dangerous....this is really a discussion of ways to limit/control danger and of course opinions will vary..............

B.Reid
10-10-2011, 10:37
[QUOTE=Warp;
And you better not use a shoulder holster next to me at the range.[/QUOTE]

What will you do if I do?

HarleyGuy
10-10-2011, 10:57
Just about any means of carry at one time or another will have the muzzle of our gun pointing either at one part of our body or possibly at another person.

As long as the person is not attempting to unholster or reholster the chances of a discharge is so rare that I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Anytime a gun is being handled for whatever reason I want to know that the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

The unholstering and reholstering of a handgun is usually done when it is loaded and this (along with loading and unloading) is probably the most dangerous activity involving a handgun not involving a defensive life/death situation.

Any person who has had an AD or a ND would probably tell you how glad they are that the muzzle of their gun was pointed in a safe direction when the BOOM rang out.

PhotoFeller
10-10-2011, 10:59
This discussion is a worthwhile exercise because it keeps people thinking about safety.......

Unfortunately , I doubt there will be any agreement reached........

Guns are dangerous, bullets are dangerous, holsters are dangerous....there's not much in life that can't be dangerous....this is really a discussion of ways to limit/control danger and of course opinions will vary..............

You are so right. But, it is important to hash out different opinions in a civil way to keep the safety/skill development/accountability topics on our screens with the same emphasis as ballistics, and other gun topics.

BailRecoveryAgent
10-10-2011, 11:14
Shoulder rigs should come standard with a pair of Aviator sunglasses, and a mustache comb. The trifecta of awesomeness...
http://static.tvguide.com/MediaBin/Galleries/Shows/G_L/Gi_Gp/good_guys_the/season1/good-guys-5.jpg

AH.74
10-10-2011, 11:46
Shoulder rigs should come standard with a pair of Aviator sunglasses, and a mustache comb. The trifecta of awesomeness...


They have their uses. As has been mentioned in this thread, for me it is the perfect way to carry while riding a motorcycle. Also for long drives.

If I have to pull my pistol from my shoulder holster in public, the people around me have bigger problems than whether or not I sweep them.

Well-said, and I agree.

hamster
10-10-2011, 13:26
Not a popular opinion here, but you are correct. And I agree 100%.

Pocket holsters are the same. I would love to use one for the convenience, but do not want to point my weapon at whoever is seated across from me.

This is why I'm not a fan of pocket carry. I know it is very unlikely, but the thought of somehow something failing or something getting into the trigger guard while I'm sitting across from my wife and son just bothers the hell out of me. In my IWB at least it is my own behind on the line... literally.

Brian Lee
10-10-2011, 13:50
Since not all guns are Glocks, not all guns are particularly resistant to discharging accidentally with no finger on the trigger. For this reason I think that holsters which hold the barrel horizontally are the worst idea ever invented. It's unfair and inconsiderate to the people around you who have no idea if this is a properly functioning gun you have, or if it's some home-modified piece of junk that will go off if it's breathed on too hard. That's why we have always had safety rules about keeping guns pointed in a safe direction - it's a simple fact that not ALL guns become "perfectly safe" just because nobody's finger is on the trigger.

IMO, a shoulder holster should point the gun at the ground, or else point it up into the armpit of the guy carrying it. Let him take his own chances instead of forcing that risk on everybody who happens to stand behind him in a checkout line.

While I strongly support both concealed and open carry, never in my wildest dreams would I do anything in my method of carry that puts other people in greater danger than my own feet are in. It's only fair that it's MY feet that should take the risk from MY gun, before somebody else' chest does.

Chuck54
10-10-2011, 13:52
Golly


Did I just win the trifecta ?

tonyparson
10-10-2011, 14:03
While I strongly support both concealed and open carry, never in my wildest dreams would I do anything in my method of carry that puts other people in greater danger than my own feet are in. It's only fair that it's MY feet that should take the risk from MY gun, before somebody else' chest does.

So you carry unchambered?

Bren
10-10-2011, 14:03
I was walking down a hallway in the press box behind a plain clothes police officer when I noticed I had a Glock 19 pointed pretty much right at my face. The holser had the weapon pointed upwards at maybe a 45 degree angle under the officer's left shoulder. I know there was next to no chance of the weapon going off but it was still kinda startling at first. Isn't that one of the main critiques of the shoulder rig, that it points a loaded weapon at everyone behind you or possibly your own chest, especially when you draw?

I'd have to classify you with those old ladies who are afraid of guns because they don't understand how they work, with maybe a little influence from those people who are afraid of snakes and can't explain why. If you have an irrational fear of guns, stay away from them.

Being afraid that the powder in the round in the chamber of a guy's holstered pistol will suddenly spontaneously combust IS an irrational fear.

hamster
10-10-2011, 14:09
I'd have to classify you with those old ladies who are afraid of guns because they don't understand how they work, with maybe a little influence from those people who are afraid of snakes and can't explain why. If you have an irrational fear of guns, stay away from them.

Being afraid that the powder in the round in the chamber of a guy's holstered pistol will suddenly spontaneously combust IS an irrational fear.

The problem isn't the gun, the problem is the human element putting the gun into the holster. There are enough idiots out there who have had NDs because of parts of shirts, or worn out holsters etc....


If you were at the range and the same guy muzzled you while his finger was OFF the trigger, you'd surely be pissed off and posting about it here. You trust this same stooge because he has a shoulder holster on? I don't.

At least with IWB carry the pistol is pointed in a safer direction and not muzzling people 95% of the time.

It is just my opinion, but staring down the barrel of a loaded gun makes me nervous, not because I don't understand how they work, but because I'm well aware of how many stooges are out there.

tonyparson
10-10-2011, 14:15
The problem isn't the gun, the problem is the human element putting the gun into the holster. There are enough idiots out there who have had NDs because of parts of shirts, or worn out holsters etc....


If you were at the range and the same guy muzzled you while his finger was OFF the trigger, you'd surely be pissed off and posting about it here. You trust this same stooge because he has a shoulder holster on? I don't.

At least with IWB carry the pistol is pointed in a safer direction and not muzzling people 95% of the time.

It is just my opinion, but staring down the barrel of a loaded gun makes me nervous, not because I don't understand how they work, but because I'm well aware of how many stooges are out there.

I dont feel its the same at all as someone pointing a gun at me with their finger off the trigger. The gun is in a holster how can it go off? :dunno:

Bren
10-10-2011, 14:24
The problem isn't the gun, the problem is the human element putting the gun into the holster. There are enough idiots out there who have had NDs because of parts of shirts, or worn out holsters etc....


If you were at the range and the same guy muzzled you while his finger was OFF the trigger, you'd surely be pissed off and posting about it here. You trust this same stooge because he has a shoulder holster on? I don't.


There was nothing in the original post about unholstered guns, or guns being holstered while pointed at you. The post was about a holstered, snapped in gun, being worn in a holster while a guy walks. If that's scary, explain why, rather than changing to story to try to make up new reasons it might be scary in some hypothetical scenario.

hamster
10-10-2011, 14:36
There was nothing in the original post about unholstered guns, or guns being holstered while pointed at you. The post was about a holstered, snapped in gun, being worn in a holster while a guy walks. If that's scary, explain why, rather than changing to story to try to make up new reasons it might be scary in some hypothetical scenario.


It is potentially scary because I don't know the condition of the pistol, the holster or how careful the owner was while holstering said pistol. All it would take is for the owner to have tangled some of his shirt in the holster when he holstered that morning. 3 hours later, he reaches for the uppermost shelf at walmart and bang.

Now what makes this "scary" to me is that the muzzle is pointing in the worst possible direction with this type of rig vs if the same scenario happened in an IWB rig.

http://www.thegunzone.com/mos/ad.html <-- This is the example I'm talking about. Now imagine if this happened in a horizontal shoulder holster?

I hope that this documented example of a holstered gun firing is to your satisfaction and not too hypothetical for you.
PS. All scenarios are hypothetical.

Brian Lee
10-10-2011, 14:54
So you carry unchambered?

It depends on the type of gun, and how well I figure that gun can resist accidental discharge with NO FINGER on the trigger. A Glock is safe with one in the chamber, but I still only carry it in a holster that points the gun at the ground. And to answer your question, yes, some guns I won't trust enough to carry chambered at all. But even then (unchambered), I won't allow my holster to point my gun at other people, for the same reason that I do not deliberately point my unloaded guns at my friends.

It's always the gun you thought was unloaded (or unchambered) that will kill your best friend by accident. Believing the gun is unchambered doesn't justify carrying it in a less-safe condition, because you could always be mistaken - just like the guys who accidentally shoot friends & family in their living rooms.

AH.74
10-10-2011, 15:05
Never mind.

I really just can't get over how fearful some people are portraying themselves as being. Fearful, not careful.

hamster
10-10-2011, 15:07
This is borderline irrational. Have you ever heard of anything like that happening?

http://www.thegunzone.com/mos/ad.html

Wasn't a shoulder holster, but the exact same kind of situation I describe.

AH.74
10-10-2011, 15:10
http://www.thegunzone.com/mos/ad.html

Wasn't a shoulder holster, but the exact same kind of situation I describe.

You caught that before I edited it. But since you did, I stand by my statement. You thinking there is a chance that is going to happen to you out and about in an everyday situation, where someone is not at the range and drawing/holstering, is not reasonable in my opinion.

AH.74
10-10-2011, 15:13
It depends on the type of gun, and how well I figure that gun can resist accidental discharge with NO FINGER on the trigger. A Glock is safe with one in the chamber, but I still only carry it in a holster that points the gun at the ground. And to answer your question, yes, some guns I won't trust enough to carry chambered at all. But even then (unchambered), I won't allow my holster to point my gun at other people, for the same reason that I do not deliberately point my unloaded guns at my friends.

It's always the gun you thought was unloaded (or unchambered) that will kill your best friend by accident. Believing the gun is unchambered doesn't justify carrying it in a less-safe condition, because you could always be mistaken - just like the guys who accidentally shoot friends & family in their living rooms.

What you are talking about is a lot different from being concerned about my gun in a shoulder holster suddenly going off and shooting you while you stand in line behind me in the store. You're talking about situations where people are messing around and being unsafe while handling their guns.

hamster
10-10-2011, 15:15
You caught that before I edited it. But since you did, I stand by my statement. You thinking there is a chance that is going to happen to you out and about in an everyday situation, where someone is not at the range and drawing/holstering, is not reasonable in my opinion.

The chance may be negligible, I just prefer not to stare down the barrel of a loaded pistol, holstered or not thankyouverymuch.

One more example of a holstered gun firing long after the "holstering" was done
http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

I know that a properly holstered gun will not go off. The problem is, I don't know if the guy whose 45 barrel I'm staring down standing in front of me properly holstered his gun.

Brian Lee
10-10-2011, 15:21
What you are talking about is a lot different from being concerned about my gun in a shoulder holster suddenly going off and shooting you while you stand in line behind me in the store. You're talking about situations where people are messing around and being unsafe while handling their guns.

No I'm not. I'm talking about the fact that not all guns are safe just because they are in a holster with no finger on the trigger - and for THAT reason, even when in a holster, a gun should always be pointed in a safe direction.

tonyparson
10-10-2011, 15:26
Does anybody but a few cops really walk around open carrying with a shoulder holster? How would you know your staring down the barrel of a loaded pistol if its concealed?

hamster
10-10-2011, 15:28
I do not understand this point of view, at all really.

If the gun is holstered, and you are not touching it, and your finger is no where near the trigger (which is covered and inaccessible) where do you see the danger?

I constantly read stories about people having NDs when adjusting their firearm for comfort or whatever. The problem I have with the shoulder holster is that with IWB the idiot messing with his gun will most likely plaxico himself. With the horizontal shoulder holster, they others are in the line of fire.

Yes, a holstered gun not being touched is perfectly safe. However if everyone followed the safety rules there would be no such thing as NDs. The fact is some people are sloppy when holstering, fidget with their guns etc. The horizontal shoulder holster puts the consequences of this bad behavior on others not on the idiot responsible.

I have no problem with YOU as a super-responsible gun owner having a well-maintained horizontal shoulder holster. I'd be proud to put my face right behind your armpit for extended periods of time. Its just the other guys I'm worried about.

Lakota
10-10-2011, 17:00
Webster's "Trifecta":

"A variatiion of the perfecta in which a bettor wins by selecting the first three winners of a (horse, dog or human) race in the correct order of finish."
(A 'perfecta' being the occasion when a bettor wins by selecting the first two winners of a race in the correct order of finish.)

In the above usage as it is applied in this thread, is it not the appropriate comparison of a horizontal and vertical line, with a 45o intermediate factor, where all three positions of shoulder-holster-handgun carrying are at issue? The horizonal holster being the most hazardous because it potentially endangers the most number of people due to its horizontal placement, that being the first of the three considerations of this astutely described 'trifecta'.

In continuation of the above established conditions and definitions, the second most dangerous position of the shoulder holstered weapon is the 45o angle, which endangers less people because its angle reduces the (radius) range of the issued danger, hazarding only whomever may be in the immediate proximity of the shoulder holstered weapon and the person carrying it.

The third factor of the issued 'trifecta' is the vertical carry, which presents the least danger to the least number of people, not excluding the possibiity of such a carry method resulting in an AD which injures or terminates the weapons carrier themselves, and/or someone who may be on a lower floor, if and when the bullet penetrates the floor the weapons carrier is standing on.

Post #28 of this thread proffers:
'All holsters that cover the trigger guard are fundamentally safe.'

Of course this is an entirely reasonable statement. The operative word being 'fundamentally'...

The operative qualification is introduced due to various methods of CCW - specifically the 'belly belt', and some forms of pocket carry, both of which characteristically exclude a rigid envelope preventing the trigger from being activated by unforeseen pressures or impacts compromising the flexible covering of the trigger. When the pocket or belly band carry method is employed (this potential hazard being applicable to all Condition One firearms; esp. the Glock), particularly at positions between 10 and 2 O'clock: in a seated position, the firearm becomes a danger to others it is inadvertently targeting, due to its transition from being a vertically carried weapon (in a standing posture), to becoming a horizontally carried weapon (in a seated posture), on the occasion(s) of the weapons carrier moving from a standing to a seated position.

Kudos to the OP for initiating this interesting and certainly educational thread.

AH.74
10-10-2011, 17:24
Lakota, what source are you quoting from?

There is being safe, and then there is being afraid. I choose not to be afraid. I don't play with my guns, once they're holstered they stay that way. If I'm carrying in public it's concealed and I don't touch it to adjust it. I don't know others who do that.

If some of you are constantly hearing of ND's caused by people adjusting their rigs for comfort, I'd like to see some sources.

If I'm with others who are carrying, I'm not constantly worrying about where their guns are pointing. They're not being handled, they're holstered.

Lakota
10-10-2011, 18:45
Lakota, what source are you quoting from?

There is being safe, and then there is being afraid. I choose not to be afraid. I don't play with my guns, once they're holstered they stay that way. If I'm carrying in public it's concealed and I don't touch it to adjust it. I don't know others who do that.

If some of you are constantly hearing of ND's caused by people adjusting their rigs for comfort, I'd like to see some sources.

If I'm with others who are carrying, I'm not constantly worrying about where their guns are pointing. They're not being handled, they're holstered.

AH.74
Although documented sources are not presented in my preceding post, the factor of AD is entirely tenable in the exemplary scenario(s); namely the non rigidity of the holster material (s) at issue - the allowance for an AD is literally built in to and a very real, constantly presiding possibility.

Surely you are aware of what is called 'Murphy's Law' ('If it can possibly go wrong, it will'.) Fire extinguishers, safety belts, spare tires, etceteras, are not instruments or methods originating out of fear, but rather, out of preventative caution (minimizing the ever-present 'Murphy' element).

The vast majority of handgun holsters are constructed to fulfill what pragmatically equates with a second insurance of safety, preventing an AD, via the envelopment of the handgun's trigger and guard in a relatively rigid container - that AD preventative quality is not built in to the structure of the fast majority of (uncustomized/issue/factory released) elastic belly bands and nylon pocket holsters.

Your post proclaims:

"If I'm with others who are carrying, I'm not constantly worrying about where their guns are pointing. They're not being handled, they're holstered."

Fear (Murphy's law) - and 'constantly worrying' - as you introduce and implement them in the ongoing dialogue, excludes the very real, constantly presiding (potential catastrophic disasters) accompanying the subjected, specifically qualified conditions.

You ask, "What source are you quoting from?"

Would you oblige me to predict when your car will have a blowout? When your fastened seatbelt will be of real, life and limb saving service to you or others? When and where you will find a real need for your fire extinguisher?

Would you likewise oblige me to foresee what exact circumstance or event may compromise the elastic or nylon cover of a given trigger in a given firearm at a given time?

The 'source' ('fear & worry') you subjectively introduce, diverts from the incumbent topic, that being simple, objective, preventative safety precautions.

IMHO, the belly band and/or nylon contained handgun - in Condition One/esp. a Glock - in use by a seated person is a very real, reasonably foreseeable AD waiting to happen.

hamster
10-10-2011, 18:59
All good points Lakota and like AH.74 you also assume perfection in the behavior of the person carrying the pistol.

While AH.74 may not play with, adjust or otherwise fidget with his gun while carrying, nearly every ND in public that I've seen documented here were the results of such negligence. Sure in a perfect world, equipment won't fail and humans will be faultless... unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.

Firearms safety rules are about reducing the odds of a catastrophe through layered redundancies.

First and foremost we always control the muzzle direction. Secondly we keep our finger off the trigger. Going by AH.74's logic, he would have no problem being muzzled by someone so long as their finger was not on the trigger of the gun. I prefer all safety rules to be observed whenever possible, not just one. To me, the horizontal shoulder holster position unnecessarily violates rule#1 at too high a percentage of the time.

AH.74
Although documented sources are not presented in my preceding post, the factor of AD is entirely tenable in the exemplary scenario(s); namely the non rigidity of the holster material (s) at issue - the allowance for an AD is literally built in to and a very real, constantly presiding possibility.

Surely you are aware of what is called 'Murphy's Law' ('If it can possibly go wrong, it will'.) Fire extinguishers, safety belts, spare tires, etceteras, are not instruments or methods originating out of fear, but rather, out of preventative caution (minimizing the ever-present 'Murphy' element).

The vast majority of handgun holsters are constructed to fulfill what pragmatically equates with a second insurance of safety, preventing an AD, via the envelopment of the handgun's trigger and guard in a relatively rigid container - that AD preventative quality is not built in to the structure of the fast majority of (uncustomized/issue/factory released) elastic belly bands and nylon pocket holsters.

Your post proclaims:

"If I'm with others who are carrying, I'm not constantly worrying about where their guns are pointing. They're not being handled, they're holstered."

Fear (Murphy's law) - and 'constantly worrying' - as you introduce and implement them in the ongoing dialogue, excludes the very real, constantly presiding (potential catastrophic disasters) accompanying the subjected, specifically qualified conditions.

You ask, "What source are you quoting from?"

Would you oblige me to predict when your car will have a blowout? When your fastened seatbelt will be of real, life and limb saving service to you or others? When and where you will find a real need for your fire extinguisher?

Would you likewise oblige me to foresee what exact circumstance or event may compromise the elastic or nylon cover of a given trigger in a given firearm at a given time?

The 'source' ('fear & worry') you subjectively introduce, diverts from the incumbent topic, that being simple, objective, preventative safety precautions.

IMHO, the belly band and/or nylon contained handgun - in Condition One/esp. a Glock - in use by a seated person is a very real, reasonably foreseeable AD waiting to happen.

AH.74
10-10-2011, 20:13
nearly every ND in public that I've seen documented here were the results of such negligence

Please point these documentations out to me. Fidgeting with your holster, moving the holster to be more comfortable, is a very different thing from taking the gun out of the holster and getting your finger on the trigger, therefore resulting in a ND. Two very different things. One is safe, one is not.

Lakota, you make references to "vast majority" more than once. Please point out the studies you are pulling these statistics from. Please point me to specific instances of belly band and pocket holster ND's. Otherwise, your post is full a lot of fancy talk, yet empty of meaning.

Hamster, I never said I would enjoy being "muzzled." And I do certainly take care of proper muzzle placement and direction, even when handling holstered guns. That is my instinct.

However, what I am saying is if I did happen to find myself in the OP's situation, walking behind where the seated officer was, I would not have been scared or concerned in any way that the holstered gun was in fact a danger to me.

Lakota
10-10-2011, 22:14
Please point these documentations out to me. Fidgeting with your holster, moving the holster to be more comfortable, is a very different thing from taking the gun out of the holster and getting your finger on the trigger, therefore resulting in a ND. Two very different things. One is safe, one is not.

Lakota, you make references to "vast majority" more than once. Please point out the studies you are pulling these statistics from. Please point me to specific instances of belly band and pocket holster ND's. Otherwise, your post is full a lot of fancy talk, yet empty of meaning.

Hamster, I never said I would enjoy being "muzzled." And I do certainly take care of proper muzzle placement and direction, even when handling holstered guns. That is my instinct.

However, what I am saying is if I did happen to find myself in the OP's situation, walking behind where the seated officer was, I would not have been scared or concerned in any way that the holstered gun was in fact a danger to me.

AH.74:
Regarding the content of your first paragraph, addressing Hamster - whether the AD occurs due to 'fidgeting' or a blundered unholstering or re-holstering of the weapon, the point of this entire thread is the inherent hazards of horizontally carried, shoulder hollstered handguns.

In referring to my previous post (#55) you proclaim:

Lakota, you make references to "vast majority" more than once.

(You are mistaken - I refer to the 'vast majority' only once, and not as you directly imply.)

In requesting that I 'point out the studies you are pulling these statistics from. Please point me to specific instances of belly band and pocket holster ND's.'

You (AH.74) base your objection/disagreement on a false premise - namely that my (singular) usage of the term, 'vast majority' alludes to incidents of ADs/NDs, about which you tenaciously solicit supportive sources of information - thereby eluding the point altogether, basing your disagreement on a fictional foundation: witness a verbatim reconsideration of what your (vacant) argument is based on...

Namely a re-presentation of my original statement (Post #55) where I am not speaking of 'the vast majority' of ADs or NDs at all, but rather the *physical construction (namely elastic and nylon) of the issued, dangerous methods of carrying firearms, *which may cause ADs/NDs:

"The vast majority of handgun holsters are constructed to fulfill what pragmatically equates with a second insurance of safety, preventing an AD, via the envelopment of the handgun's trigger and guard in a relatively rigid container - that AD preventative quality is not built in to the structure of the fast majority of (uncustomized/issue/factory released) elastic belly bands and nylon pocket holsters." (Refer post #55.)

Otherwise, your post is full a lot of fancy talk, yet empty of meaning.any documented incidents accompany the OP's starting post in this thread.

Without digressing to your vacuous elicitation of the grammar police and while refraining from any further expressed observations of your fancy penchant for transferring your equivocations elsewhere, readers of this ongoing thread are cordially and constitutionally liberated to draw their own conclusions. :upeyes:

The Bronx Bull
10-10-2011, 23:07
Ban shoulder holsters? Get real people. Enough with the "banning" of things; I'm so tired of that word.

hamster
10-11-2011, 04:53
Ban shoulder holsters? Get real people. Enough with the "banning" of things; I'm so tired of that word.

Forgive me if i missed it as im reading this from my phone. But i did not see a single person mention the word ban.

Gary1911A1
10-11-2011, 06:48
Knew a Lt. who said wearing a shoulder holster was like wearing a bra. The Lt. wasn't female and I knew enough not to ask. :supergrin:

RussP
10-11-2011, 06:56
Yea I understand. A couple of years ago at a range guy had a AD while inserting his firearm in his shoulder holster. I am now petrified when I see some one trying to re holster a gun in one.Exactly what in the holstering process caused the ND?I recommend they take it off point it down range.Re-holster then put it back on.Why not just turn ones back downrange and holster? Why take it off?I use one I keep one bed side in case I have to run out of the house in my pagamas and need to have a holstered firearmYou no longer use the shoulder holster? How do you carry in your pajamas now?

RussP
10-11-2011, 07:17
For this (cardinal) reason, IMHO, horizontal shoulder holsters can and may be (reasonably) banned from use by anyone, certainly including LEOs.Ban shoulder holsters? Get real people. Enough with the "banning" of things; I'm so tired of that word.Forgive me if i missed it as im reading this from my phone. But i did not see a single person mention the word ban.Lakota.

hamster
10-11-2011, 07:42
Lakota.


Ah ok. I didn't see that. Again, I was reading the thread from the phone while on the John. :)

Anyway, I wouldn't ban them, though I'm not a fan. I'd simply discourage their use much like I discourage people from using "glock clips."

AH.74
10-11-2011, 07:50
Lakota:

The vast majority of handgun holsters are constructed to fulfill what pragmatically equates with a second insurance of safety, preventing an AD, via the envelopment of the handgun's trigger and guard in a relatively rigid container - that AD preventative quality is not built in to the structure of the fast majority of (uncustomized/issue/factory released) elastic belly bands and nylon pocket holsters.

In this paragraph you mention "Vast" and "Fast" majority. I gather you meant the same thing. That's twice, two mentions.

Now- enough already. You speak as if you swallowed a dictionary. While you command great vocabulary and writing skills, if you are unable to back up your words with a valid argument along with references to support your claims, your words are empty and mean nothing. They sure look and sound good though.

Walkertl
10-11-2011, 10:40
Interesting discussion.......

1. I use my (horizontal or vertical) shoulder holster whenever I am on a motorcycle ride for other than around town, or when the weather is such that I am wearing clothing that would not allow me to reach a holstered weapon at my waist.
2. If I unholster from the shoulder it is because I need it. When removing the rig in privacy, the weapon stays in the holster.
3. I holster prior to putting on the rig so that it falls in the right location, and the straps do not twist. There is never a chance of getting clothing tangled in the holster with the weapon.
3. I would only holster to the shoulder after the weapon has been used to protect me and/or those I'm responsible for (which fortunately hasn't happened yet) and it is safe to do so. Also during practice (unloaded weapon) and live fire drills (see#4).
4. Live fire drills are conducted with a shoulder holster when I am alone on the range, and at the far left of the firing line.
5. I carry concealed when using my shoulder holster.
6. I have never found a reason to "fiddle" with a properly adjusted shoulder holster.
7. My shoulder holster is not a range holster, I use a waist holster for that.
8. Both my 1911 and HiPower are carried in condition 1, my Sig is loaded and decocked, my Glock is carried with one in the chamber and ready to fire.
9. I practice holstering and unholstering with all types of carry, so that it becomes second nature. The gun is unloaded when practicing.
10. I keep my finger off the trigger, no matter what type of holster I use.

Shoulder holsters have their place.


Walker

hamster
10-11-2011, 10:44
Interesting discussion.......

1. I use my (horizontal or vertical) shoulder holster whenever I am on a motorcycle ride for other than around town, or when the weather is such that I am wearing clothing that would not allow me to reach a holstered weapon at my waist.
2. If I unholster from the shoulder it is because I need it. When removing the rig in privacy, the weapon stays in the holster.
3. I holster prior to putting on the rig so that it falls in the right location, and the straps do not twist. There is never a chance of getting clothing tangled in the holster with the weapon.
3. I would only holster to the shoulder after the weapon has been used to protect me and/or those I'm responsible for (which fortunately hasn't happened yet) and it is safe to do so. Also during practice (unloaded weapon) and live fire drills (see#4).
4. Live fire drills are conducted with a shoulder holster when I am alone on the range, and at the far left of the firing line.
5. I carry concealed when using my shoulder holster.
6. I have never found a reason to "fiddle" with a properly adjusted shoulder holster.
7. My shoulder holster is not a range holster, I use a waist holster for that.
8. Both my 1911 and HiPower are carried in condition 1, my Sig is loaded and decocked, my Glock is carried with one in the chamber and ready to fire.
9. I practice holstering and unholstering with all types of carry, so that it becomes second nature. The gun is unloaded when practicing.
10. I keep my finger off the trigger, no matter what type of holster I use.

Shoulder holsters have their place.


Walker


Congratulations, you are a perfect poster child for proper shoulder holster usage. There is no question that they CAN be perfectly safe when operated by careful people like yourself.

I'm more worried about the lowest common denominator. I'd prefer newbies to carry and/or those less well trained to have downward pointing holsters. :)

Walkertl
10-11-2011, 10:53
I'm more worried about the lowest common denominator. I'd prefer newbies to carry and/or those less well trained to have downward pointing holsters. :)

I can't argue with that...... :)


Walker

tonyparson
10-11-2011, 11:08
I'm more worried about the lowest common denominator. I'd prefer newbies to carry and/or those less well trained to have downward pointing holsters. :)

I would prefer newbies to driving cars only be aloud to drive when I'm not on the road specially when I'm on my motorcycle. Its not going to happen so why complain? :dunno:

FireGuy
10-11-2011, 11:36
After reading through all the responses, then spending several minutes thinking of a way to respond in a sane manner, all I can think of is the following-

Life is not "safe". You are going to die from something. All we can do is attempt to reduce the risk of death from those things that are most probable.

To do this you first establish the probability of a specific incident happening. Then you decide the most likely outcome of that incident. Since we don't have hard numbers on the number of times people have been shot by a slightly chunky female police officer's G19 in a shoulder rig going BANG all by itself then we are only really discussing our fears of the unknown. It's the same argument as those that claimed we would have blood running in the streets if normal citizens were allowed to carry concealed weapons.

It comes down to your feelings of safety. If you don't feel safe around people with shoulder rigs then take positive action and leave the area.

Personally, I'm much more worried about lightning, snakes on a plane, and texting drivers...

PhotoFeller
10-11-2011, 11:38
No I'm not. I'm talking about the fact that not all guns are safe just because they are in a holster with no finger on the trigger - and for THAT reason, even when in a holster, a gun should always be pointed in a safe direction.

Amen. That's how I learned to handle all guns, starting with my Daisy 'Red Ryder'.

tonyparson
10-11-2011, 11:40
After reading through all the responses, then spending several minutes thinking of a way to respond in a sane manner, all I can think of is the following-

Life is not "safe". You are going to die from something. All we can do is attempt to reduce the risk of death from those things that are most probable.

To do this you first establish the probability of a specific incident happening. Then you decide the most likely outcome of that incident. Since we don't have hard numbers on the number of times people have been shot by a slightly chunky female police officer's G19 in a shoulder rig going BANG all by itself then we are only really discussing our fears of the unknown. It's the same argument as those that claimed we would have blood running in the streets if normal citizens were allowed to carry concealed weapons.

It comes down to your feelings of safety. If you don't feel safe around people with shoulder rigs then take positive action and leave the area.

Personally, I'm much more worried about lightning, snakes on a plane, and texting drivers...:goodpost:

hamster
10-11-2011, 14:21
After reading through all the responses, then spending several minutes thinking of a way to respond in a sane manner, all I can think of is the following-

Life is not "safe". You are going to die from something. All we can do is attempt to reduce the risk of death from those things that are most probable.

To do this you first establish the probability of a specific incident happening. Then you decide the most likely outcome of that incident. Since we don't have hard numbers on the number of times people have been shot by a slightly chunky female police officer's G19 in a shoulder rig going BANG all by itself then we are only really discussing our fears of the unknown. It's the same argument as those that claimed we would have blood running in the streets if normal citizens were allowed to carry concealed weapons.

It comes down to your feelings of safety. If you don't feel safe around people with shoulder rigs then take positive action and leave the area.

Personally, I'm much more worried about lightning, snakes on a plane, and texting drivers...


Pretty much everything in life boils down to how comfortable people feel with certain situations and how they evaluate risk. Hell there are entire industries built around the quantification of risk.

Based on some of the jackassery I saw every time I went to my local indoor shooting range, I did what FireGuy suggested and removed myself from the situation. I now shoot at a place with a much higher caliber (pun intended) of individuals who know not to constantly muzzle others on the line.

I'm all for people being "allowed" to use horizontal shoulder holsters, If a guy sits down in front of me in the movie theater with his shoulder holster mounted 500 smith and wesson pointed at me, I'm going to move over a seat. :)



PS. While at the original shooting range I mentioned earlier, I once asked the guy next to me to stop muzzling me with his mossberg 500, he said "what is your problem, I didn't have my finger on the trigger."

series1811
10-11-2011, 15:06
I know what the OP means. I was in a training class once, and the detective sitting in front of me took off his jacket, and I found myself staring down the muzzle of his Miami Vice shoulder holstered Glock all morning. I couldn't concentrate on a thing that was said, even though I knew that logically, it shouldn't be able to go off.

I moved to a different seat after lunch. :supergrin:

AH.74
10-11-2011, 17:07
I'm all for people being "allowed" to use horizontal shoulder holsters, If a guy sits down in front of me in the movie theater with his shoulder holster mounted 500 smith and wesson pointed at me, I'm going to move over a seat.


PS. While at the original shooting range I mentioned earlier, I once asked the guy next to me to stop muzzling me with his mossberg 500, he said "what is your problem, I didn't have my finger on the trigger."

This is a perfect example of the differences in some of the situations we've been going back and forth about.

In the first, the guy's sitting there. Not touching his gun, not fidgeting, nothing. There is no real danger.

In the second, there is a very real danger.

dirtfloorfab
10-11-2011, 17:35
I have been looking at vertical shoulder holsters but they do not make what im looking for in my gun so im going to end up building a close to vertical with a 10-15 degree cant outward, and hold it on with a shoulder rig

hamster
10-11-2011, 18:40
This is a perfect example of the differences in some of the situations we've been going back and forth about.

In the first, the guy's sitting there. Not touching his gun, not fidgeting, nothing. There is no real danger.

In the second, there is a very real danger.

Either way, like series 1811 said, I'm moving over one seat. :) What you do is up to you.