FNH five seven [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Viper 1
10-09-2011, 09:40
Anyone own or fire one of these?

bac1023
10-09-2011, 09:42
Both.

Cool gun :cool:

Deployment Solu
10-09-2011, 09:53
Yes, both 5.7 pistol, 5.7 AR, and a PS90. It is the Zombie Apocalypse Hunter's wet dream. 20 or 30 rg mags in the pistol and 50 rd mags in the rifles!!! Light weight ammo!!

Viper 1
10-09-2011, 09:54
Both.

Cool gun :cool:


How about for strictly target shooting?

Viper 1
10-09-2011, 09:55
Yes, both 5.7 pistol, 5.7 AR, and a PS90. It is the Zombie Apocalypse Hunter's wet dream. 20 or 30 rg mags in the pistol and 50 rd mags in the rifles!!! Light weight ammo!!

Would you recommend for a target pistol versus a Glock 34?

bac1023
10-09-2011, 09:59
How about for strictly target shooting?

Its great.

I find it fairly accurate with no recoil whatsoever.

racer88
10-09-2011, 12:55
Love my Five-seveN. A very unique pistol. Bonus: Wifey likes it, too.

bac1023
10-09-2011, 12:58
Love my Five-seveN. A very unique pistol. Bonus: Wifey likes it, too.

Yeah, they have no recoil to speak of.

Ruggles
10-09-2011, 12:59
Yep quality piece and fun to shoot. :) I think it also makes sense in some situations as a nice HD handgun.

bac1023
10-09-2011, 13:04
Yep quality piece and fun to shoot. :) I think it also makes sense in some situations as a nice HD handgun.

Yeah, I sure wouldn't want to get hit with it.

I never carried mine, but it is very lightweight for a full size pistol. That said, the safety is a bit ackward.

Ruggles
10-09-2011, 16:28
Yeah, I sure wouldn't want to get hit with it.

I never carried mine, but it is very lightweight for a full size pistol. That said, the safety is a bit ackward.

Yeah the safety is not in the "right" position IMO.

I did carry mine concealed a number of times in a Kramer IWB. Large of course but just silly light, even with 20 rounds on board. I sold it when I went exclusive to the 1911 platform, the only reason I did so.

I think it's light recoil and incredibly fast follow up shots are major "+s" when it comes to a HD gun. It is a very nice caliber/gun combo IMO. Even more so when you throw in the PS90.

BWT
10-09-2011, 16:40
I've shot one and the only thing that I really didn't like was the sites. Everything else was great and fun to shoot.

Walk Soft
10-09-2011, 16:45
http://http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/lexibilly/lasttrip005.jpg (http://[IMG]http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/lexibilly/lasttrip005.jpg[/IMG)
Fun to shoot.

UniversalBrow06
10-09-2011, 17:11
Both the FN Five SeveN and the PS90 are the Bomb.com. Seriously, there's lots of controversy over these guns, but for what they are, they're impressive firearms. And FN makes some of the very beet small arms on the planet IMHO.

racer88
10-09-2011, 17:13
Both the FN Five SeveN and the PS90 are the Bomb.com. Seriously, there's lots of controversy over these guns, but for what they are, they're impressive firearms. And FN makes some of the very beet small arms on the planet IMHO.

I agree, they are the "beet!" ;) Here are mine (just love sharing this pic!):
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b425/racer88_bucket/Gun%20Stuff/FNH-Family.jpg

h2oking
10-09-2011, 17:47
I have shot the FN 57 a lot and while I like the gun (I like most guns) I don't believe it would make a good home defense gun. I have a farm that at one time used a lot of migrant farm workers and they have left among other things several old cars laying about and we have what we call a bone yard of junk. I wanted to preface that before stating the following. The 57 will shoot clear through two car doors with the windows rolled down. It will shoot through steal bumpers like they weren't even there and it will shatter a windshield no matter what angle you shoot at it. None of which a 45 auto or 9mm will do. All of this was done with aluminum core jacketed 27 grain bullets.

The pressures that the cartridges are loaded at and the way the action works makes the case life very short and some what dangerous if you try to get more than 2 loadings from a factory case. You cannot even begin to re-chamber a fired case as it looks nothing like it did before firing, causing the brass to "work harden" when resizing making it very brittle. The gun is well made, very noisy, fairly accurate and has very little recoil. In my opinion the only thing the gun is good for would be to defeat body armor or to have as a toy. As for a personal carry gun it would also be in my opinion very irresponsible to carry one for that purpose because the penetration is so great.

Ron

TreyG-20
10-09-2011, 17:58
i shot a friends 5.7 pistol. it was a load of fun and did a number on a jack rabbit

grecco
10-09-2011, 18:00
Yes, fun pistol.

DerekL
10-09-2011, 18:01
http://http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/lexibilly/lasttrip005.jpg (http://[IMG]http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/lexibilly/lasttrip005.jpg[/IMG)
Fun to shoot.

The magazine catches shells? I want!

bac1023
10-09-2011, 18:28
i shot a friends 5.7 pistol. it was a load of fun and did a number on a jack rabbit

I'm sure it would.

Walk Soft
10-09-2011, 18:33
The magazine catches shells? I want!

Yes, I don't reload them though.I've been saving them to one day reload them,if you can reload 5.7.

Viper 1
10-09-2011, 18:54
I'm sure it would.


What's your opinion of it for a target pistol?

bac1023
10-09-2011, 18:56
What's your opinion of it for a target pistol?

Its fun at the range. I find it fairly accurate too.

Viper 1
10-09-2011, 18:59
Its fun at the range. I find it fairly accurate too.

I'm new to target pistols. When you say it's fairly accurate, how would you compare it to a Glock 34?

Thanks,

american lockpicker
10-09-2011, 19:23
I have one and it has accuracy issues when shooting up close(30 yards or less...) but works fine at 100.

Trigger Finger
10-09-2011, 21:07
I have shot the FN 57 a lot and while I like the gun (I like most guns) I don't believe it would make a good home defense gun. I have a farm that at one time used a lot of migrant farm workers and they have left among other things several old cars laying about and we have what we call a bone yard of junk. I wanted to preface that before stating the following. The 57 will shoot clear through two car doors with the windows rolled down. It will shoot through steal bumpers like they weren't even there and it will shatter a windshield no matter what angle you shoot at it. None of which a 45 auto or 9mm will do. All of this was done with aluminum core jacketed 27 grain bullets.

The pressures that the cartridges are loaded at and the way the action works makes the case life very short and some what dangerous if you try to get more than 2 loadings from a factory case. You cannot even begin to re-chamber a fired case as it looks nothing like it did before firing, causing the brass to "work harden" when resizing making it very brittle. The gun is well made, very noisy, fairly accurate and has very little recoil. In my opinion the only thing the gun is good for would be to defeat body armor or to have as a toy. As for a personal carry gun it would also be in my opinion very irresponsible to carry one for that purpose because the penetration is so great.

Ron

I understand what you are saying but I think you underestimate what a small hyper velocity bullet can do to human flesh and innards!!
In my limited use of the gun A friend of mine and myself shot into very wet newspaper and found it really tore up the insides when the bullet began tumbling!

For self defense I think it would be better than a 9MM HP. And the ability to double and triple tap quicker due to less recoil would give it an advantage IMO.

PlasticGuy
10-09-2011, 21:20
I didn't want to like it. I avoided it for years. Then I decided to try it. I liked it. My wife stole it. I bought another. She got a PS90 to go with hers. So far I have fought the urge, but time will tell. Awesome guns, and great little round. Perfect for targets or varmints, and a pretty effective defense option with the right loads.

JohnnyReb
10-10-2011, 14:25
What are some good loads for the 5.7? I saw something about elite ammunition on the fiveseven forum, but are the factory loads any good?

MadMonkey
10-10-2011, 15:22
I bought one recently, and immediately ordered an MTAC so I could CC it. I don't have an issue carrying it as a defensive weapon even with factory loads, and it will be a BEAST with some of EA's offerings.

BMH
10-11-2011, 08:55
What are some good loads for the 5.7? I saw something about elite ammunition on the fiveseven forum, but are the factory loads any good?

You might want to check these people out: http://www.eliteammunition.net/57x28mm.html

jp3975
10-11-2011, 09:03
If I could carry it without the safety, Id want one.

JohnnyReb
10-11-2011, 09:17
You might want to check these people out: http://www.eliteammunition.net/57x28mm.html

Thats way expensive!:shocked:

crsuribe
10-11-2011, 09:43
I can't bring myself to like that thing... no matter what I do. When I hold one and look down the sights it feels like they stick out so far above my hand that I just find it uncomfortable to aim.

I guess if you people who have experience with it say it's cool then there must be something to it but I know I'll never care enough to try one myself.

BMH
10-11-2011, 09:49
Thats way expensive!:shocked:

Try these people instead: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-fn-57

DEADEYEGUY
10-11-2011, 10:37
It hits with similar velocity as a .22 Magnum fired out of a rifle. Bill Jordan felt a .22 Magnum J-frame would be a pretty effective round. He was in numerous gunfights so I would assume h knows of what he speaks. Any round that is easy to shoot, therefore easy to make multiple, fast, accurate hits with and gets good penetration can be effective if used properly by the shooter. It is pretty well known that a small bullet moving fast will do a good job going through things a heavier, slower bullet won't. If that is a high priority to you becaus of what you need the weapon for it is a good choice. If not then it is not.
As one well known gun scrib put it. Before you buy a weapon dcide on what you need it for. This should guide your decision. A full sized gun is an excellent choic for home defense vs. say a pockt pistol. But their are times a pocket pistol in an anemic cartridge may be all you can carry. Why if you can only due to circumstances you can only carry a little .25, .32. or .380 would someone compare it to a full sized gun???? If the FiveSeven fits your needs it's a good choice. If not look elsewhere. And just wanting a gun because you like it and it's fun to shoot is a legitimate choice.

Darkangel1846
10-11-2011, 10:59
Never had much use for that round or the pistols and rifles. Kinda fills a nich that was never there in the first place. All too expensive for what you get. But thats just my opinion...numerous people have those and are quite happy with them.

SiberianErik
10-11-2011, 11:19
Yeah the safety is not in the "right" position IMO.

I did carry mine concealed a number of times in a Kramer IWB. Large of course but just silly light, even with 20 rounds on board. I sold it when I went exclusive to the 1911 platform, the only reason I did so.

I think it's light recoil and incredibly fast follow up shots are major "+s" when it comes to a HD gun. It is a very nice caliber/gun combo IMO. Even more so when you throw in the PS90.


wow me too..used to cc mine in the same way but moved to the 1911 platform and never looked back. The gun is so light and feels fragile but is tough. I hate to say this as well but the wife got it for HD for years..I bought mine when they still could be had for a good price, iirc pd like $890 for it. I sold it to a friend that wanted it for $900 so..

I remember after the Ft Hood shooting my LGS sold all 6 they had for msrp..around $1100 after they had been in the back room collecting dust for almost a year.

People worry me !!!! as soon as a gun is a news certified mass killer tool they want it.. :dunno:I remember the same thing happpened w/ Bushmaster AR's w/ the DC sniper. Best advertising in the world is when your gun mows down lots of people. Sad but true.

If I could get the SS190 stuff I would def get another but until the real primo ammo is on the mkt, I plan on picking up the PWR-30 next month

Beware of Elite Ammo !!!! do your due diligence on them....

Viper 1
10-11-2011, 11:32
wow me too..used to cc mine in the same way but moved to the 1911 platform and never looked back. The gun is so light and feels fragile but is tough. I hate to say this as well but the wife got it for HD for years..I bought mine when they still could be had for a good price, iirc pd like $890 for it. I sold it to a friend that wanted it for $900 so..

I remember after the Ft Hood shooting my LGS sold all 6 they had for msrp..around $1100 after they had been in the back room collecting dust for almost a year.

People worry me !!!! as soon as a gun is a news certified mass killer tool they want it.. :dunno:I remember the same thing happpened w/ Bushmaster AR's w/ the DC sniper. Best advertising in the world is when your gun mows down lots of people. Sad but true.

If I could get the SS190 stuff I would def get another but until the real primo ammo is on the mkt, I plan on picking up the PWR-30 next month

Beware of Elite Ammo !!!! do your due diligence on them....

What brand is the PWR-30?

Deployment Solu
10-11-2011, 11:44
Beware of Elite Ammo !!!! do your due diligence on them....

Can you tell me what this means?? I haven't heard anything about them.

Old School
10-11-2011, 12:06
I have a FiveseveN. Fun handgun, no regrets buying it...I wish it were $400 cheaper, though.

Given it's price point, ammo cost, bullet size and ballistics, it's really more of a niche piece vs a Glock model that is going to be more mainstream. So it's difficult to compare the two.

In this case, I find the niche aspect appealing beyond the cost and practical implications. If you're in that comfort zone then give the FiveseveN a try. But don't feel bad if you're outside that comfort zone because a Glock is an attractive alternative.

G33
10-11-2011, 12:15
Fun pistol and rifle combo.
:wavey:

racer88
10-11-2011, 14:56
I remember after the Ft Hood shooting my LGS sold all 6 they had for msrp..around $1100 after they had been in the back room collecting dust for almost a year.

People worry me !!!! as soon as a gun is a news certified mass killer tool they want it.. :dunno:I remember the same thing happpened w/ Bushmaster AR's w/ the DC sniper. Best advertising in the world is when your gun mows down lots of people. Sad but true.

Actually, I think you're inferring a meaning behind the buying sprees that is inaccurate and presumptuous. Bear with me.... not a personal attack, just offering a different perspective.

People jumped on them, not because they're "certified mass killers." Rather, people more likely worried that the gov't would institute knee-jerk bans on certain guns due to their correlation to heinous crimes.

So, consumers buy them up for fear that some day (soon) they may NOT be able to buy them (banned). I strongly suspect... my own admitted inference that happens to differ from yours.... that it's a scarcity mentality that spurred the sudden increase in sales rather than a twisted desire to acquire a "certified mass killer." And, I feel quite confident in my perspective. :supergrin:

No doubt, I've been on a bit of a "buying spree" myself over the last couple of years (about 10 guns). I don't REALLY think the gov't will put a stop to our 2nd Amendment rights. But, there is that little worried voice in my head that tells me it's not completely beyond the realm of possibilities. I've also been stocking up on ammo... because of that damned little voice.

To wit... after that arsehole miscreant in Arizona killed a bunch of people at a congresswoman's gathering, I bought a few more 33-round Glock magazines. And, so did a bunch of other people. Did I "need" them? Nope. I already had a couple. Was I intrigued somehow because it was a "certified mass killer?" Nope. The only mass killer was that piece of ***t nut-job. But, did I worry a little bit that the gov't would ban "high capacity" magazines? Yep. And, in the end, one cannot have too many guns, magazines, or too much ammo. :cool:

Trigger Finger
10-11-2011, 16:32
If i could get one for less money, even used in good condition, I would by it!!

jp3975
10-11-2011, 17:07
Try these people instead: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-fn-57

What's better...the hollowpoint or ballistic tips? The hp costs more, but isnt a bt the same as hp but with a plastic point?

UniversalBrow06
10-12-2011, 06:39
What's better...the hollowpoint or ballistic tips? The hp costs more, but isnt a bt the same as hp but with a plastic point?

In essense, no. Someone who has a better knowledge of this might be able to explain this better, but the ss197 Sporting round has a 40 grain bullet and should perform like other ballistic tips in that it rapidly fragments with a travel length between 7 and 14 inches (depending on barrel length and medium, that's what most people are getting).

The ss195 is different in that it was originally designed to mimic the ss192. Both light 27 (or 29, I forget) grain bullets are supposed to penetrate certain special barriers (perhaps you could say... certain kevlar) but when entering softer mediums such as tissue, organs, or wet phone books it is supposed to yaw or tumble creating a larger and more serious wound cavity than what it theoretically would have if the bullet simply punched straight through. Using the pistol, performance for the ss195 rarely reaches the FBI minimum 12 inches, at least that's what I have seen. I have easily achieved it with the PS90, but that's with a longer barrel of course.

Neither ss197 nor the ss195 are factory loaded as hot as the round's potential, hence the market for Elite Ammo. There are ALWAYS rumors that other companies will grow the balls to offer more loadings, but this seems to only be rumors. We all hope and dream, but so far it seems this cartridge is just too policitally radioactive.

So we are stuck essentially with either super expensive EA batches or kinda tepid factory loadings. And people are experiencing that the newer ss195 non-white-box loads are even MORE tepid than the older stuff! There are rumors for why this is the case, I could not tell you for certainly.

Fortunately the two factory loadings have proven more potent in real life situations than their performance on paper. I guess we shouldn't be that surprised. The explosive performance of certain 5.56x45 loadings can be attributed to its ability to tumble and then rapidly fragment (XM193 for instance) or just radically yaw (mk262). Even at far lower velocities and with lighter bullets, the ss195 has been reliably tumbling and the ss197 has been rapidly fragmenting in soft tissue. In fun ballistic gel tests the 5.7 does not look as nasty as a 5.56, they're far more impressive than .22 magnum. I have no idea why people still say, "the 5.7 is just a .22 Mag out of a rifle barrel." this is simply not the case.

I shouldn't be comparing 5.7x28 to 5.56x45 either (this happens all the time which is not all fair since the 5.7 was never designed to replace or compete vs. the 5.56) but I really do think that the designers of the 5.7 didn't just want to punch through Kevlar in a battlefield. When comparing this round to other sub gun cartridges (9mm, .45 acp, etc) it makes a LOT more sense. The PS90 is a PDW after all, NOT an assault rifle. So when comparing apples to apples, the 5.7 as a round really does well IMHO.

Just my .02

M2 Carbine
10-12-2011, 08:01
I've had mine for 6 years now ($760).

After some back yard testing I thought enough of the gun and round to use it for a HD gun.
If a guy still has any fight left after one or two of these bullets tumble through his chest at 2,000 FPS, he's one bad SOB.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/FN57andTLR2.jpg

The only real problem I have with the round is the ammo costs too much (I know all ammo costs too much, that's why I reload).
Once fired brass is very hard to find and expensive if you do manage to find some.

bac1023
10-12-2011, 08:10
Here's mine. :)


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/000_2103.jpg

LSUAdman
10-12-2011, 08:22
What brand is the PWR-30?

Kel Tec

bac1023
10-12-2011, 08:53
If i could get one for less money, even used in good condition, I would by it!!

Yeah, they are a bit steep.

ScrappyDoo
10-12-2011, 10:32
One thing I will say, {And of course as a joe six pack gun owner, fan, etc. I'd love to have a Five seveN... for the cool factor, IT factor, power/stopping power/hand cannon power etc. all that good stuff} ... When Marvin Harrison got in trouble ( or did he get in trouble , it kind of just went away?) in Philly for like lighting up someone who looked at him the wrong way, in front of his car wash in the hood at home in Philly, I remember the local papers (Here in Trenton, we get Philly news as our 'local news' etc and the Inquirer is our closest MAJOR paper,the two Trenton papers, the Times of Trenton and The Trentonian, are local-local and basically bite off of Philly and NY news anyway, moreso Philly) THEY MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL OF THE FIVE-SEVEN.

I had no idea what gun it was at the time nor what the big deal was but I remember reading like "Harrison allegedly was easily linked to the shooting because he is one of the twelve owners in the United States of America of the Belgian made, customized, extremely expensive and highly powerful semi automatic pistol... Because of the fact it uses it own gunsmiths and engineering designed rounds of ammunition, known for being completely impervious to all known forms of protection and armor, and costing about $5 a round, officers at the scene were immediately able to link Marvin Harrison to the shooting because when the shell casings were identified on the street, they realized the 5.7mm rounds that the 5-7 fires are so distinctive, and only like twelve extremely rich and powerful Bavarian iLLUMINati gun enthusiants own this pistol in the UNITED STATES, they immediately knew it was him."


Now let the record reflect obviously I embellished and editorialized for humor, but seriously- the article was that bad in its writing. I mean I seriously go intrigued by what they wrote about "the gun" I HAD to find out whart it was. I mean they literally did say somethying along the lines of "The highly customized and specifically engineered, extrfemely powerful and exceedinhly rare Belgian semi auto pistol is so rare it was immediatrely and easily connected to Harrsion simply because no one else in the state of PA has a FN 5-7". I obviously know now how untrue that is but at the time, and a lot less gun knowledable obviously, I am thinking, WOW, i knew he was rich, imagine what kind of money he must have dropped on that super duper Belgian GIUN! AND IT BACKFIRED, SINC EIT WAS SO RARE THEY KNEW IT WAS HIM!!!!]



AND I've wanted one ever since lol! The often used picture like this one :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Five-seveN_USG.jpg/300px-Five-seveN_USG.jpg

With the attached weapon light (which looks amazing on it, for some reason) and the loose rounds all a'round' it (with their rifle-looking shape and erspecially the ballistic tip) just make this thing look like the absolute badest astrobuler pistol in the wordl.


So in summation.... BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY!!!!!

M2 Carbine
10-12-2011, 13:09
One thing I find interesting is FN just reinvented the wheel, and not as good a wheel, with the FN 5.7.

Years ago Col. Johnson necked down the M1 Carbine case to take a 40 gr .224 bullet. It would do a measured 3,000 FPS from the short M1 Carbine barrel.
I've had the M1/M2 Carbine in 5.7 Johnson (AKA Spitfire) for many years. Impressive round but it never caught on because the .30 cal Carbine was so popular.

The picture shows the Spitfire, loaded with a (long) 55 gr fmj (military) bullet, beside the FN.5.7.
With a 40 gr bullet the Spitfire is just about the same length as the 5.7 FN.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/FN57and57Johnson.jpg

bac1023
10-12-2011, 13:24
One thing I find interesting is FN just reinvented the wheel, and not as good a wheel, with the FN 5.7.

Years ago Col. Johnson necked down the M1 Carbine case to take a 40 gr .224 bullet. It would do a measured 3,000 FPS from the short M1 Carbine barrel.
I've had the M1/M2 Carbine in 5.7 Johnson (AKA Spitfire) for many years. Impressive round but it never caught on because the .30 cal Carbine was so popular.

The picture shows the Spitfire, loaded with a (long) 55 gr fmj (military) bullet, beside the FN.5.7.
With a 40 gr bullet the Spitfire is just about the same length as the 5.7 FN.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/FN57and57Johnson.jpg

Very interesting, M2.

Adjuster
10-12-2011, 13:38
In a rifle or carbine length barrel what is the effective range of the 5.7 round without getting carried away on holdover and Kentucky windage and all that crap. Is it a 300yrd round? Less? More?

UniversalBrow06
10-12-2011, 13:44
In a rifle or carbine length barrel what is the effective range of the 5.7 round without getting carried away on holdover and Kentucky windage and all that crap. Is it a 300yrd round? Less? More?

I wouldn't feel supremely comfortable engaging something human sized beyond 150 yards with my PS90. Complete maximum for me would be 200 yards. That would be a gamble for me. Its forte is definitely CQB.

Tiro Fijo
10-12-2011, 15:06
I know an LEO with a south TX PD who told me that they used to issue the 5.7mm in the handgun and that they had a few shootings and that all were bad. Bad in that the round was worthless. One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

The PD quickly dropped the gun/round. It's a loser, pure & simple.

Adjuster
10-12-2011, 15:17
I know an LEO with a south TX PD who told me that they used to issue the 5.7mm in the handgun and that they had a few shootings and that all were bad. Bad in that the round was worthless. One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

The PD quickly dropped the gun/round. It's a loser, pure & simple.



This is embarrassingly ridiculous.



/

Shadyscott69
10-12-2011, 15:23
I know an LEO with a south TX PD who told me that they used to issue the 5.7mm in the handgun and that they had a few shootings and that all were bad. Bad in that the round was worthless. One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

The PD quickly dropped the gun/round. It's a loser, pure & simple.

:shakehead: :faint:

Narkcop
10-12-2011, 18:00
I know an LEO with a south TX PD who told me that they used to issue the 5.7mm in the handgun and that they had a few shootings and that all were bad. Bad in that the round was worthless. One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

The PD quickly dropped the gun/round. It's a loser, pure & simple.

Unbelievable what some people say. I can assure you that 3 rounds of ANY 5.7 load available would have done an incredible amount of damage on an unarmoured person. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any PD in Texas arming their police with 5.7's. TOTAL BS.

M2 Carbine
10-12-2011, 20:11
One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

Sorry but I don't buy that. I'd suspect there's more to the story.
I've done enough messing with the 5.7 round round to know that a rib isn't stopping that bullet. Add to that, law enforcement would have the hot AP rounds that a rib probably wouldn't even slow down.


I am not a fan of shooting wet phone books but I tried out two good 45 ACP defense loads and a couple 5.7 FN (civilian) loads. It seems wet books are a good bullet stopper because the 45 loads were stopped in 2.25 inches.
The FMJ 5.7 bullet turned sideways within 2 inches and still penetrated 6.5 inches in the books. One 5.7 Hornady Blue tip did not mushroom and also penetrated almost 6.5 inches.
A second 5.7 Blue tip Hornady bullet expanded, so only penetrated 4 inches.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/FNphonebooks2.jpg

UniversalBrow06
10-12-2011, 20:18
I know an LEO with a south TX PD who told me that they used to issue the 5.7mm in the handgun and that they had a few shootings and that all were bad. Bad in that the round was worthless. One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

The PD quickly dropped the gun/round. It's a loser, pure & simple.

Honestly this is no offense to you because it's seemingly a very realistic story going around. But I promise you I heard almost the EXACT SAME story a month ago, the only difference being the perp was shot three times by a .357 Sig round instead of 5.7x28. It was TX State Patrol, and they were trying to stop a guy high on drugs who had rushed a few officers with a knife. :faint:

kaifs
10-12-2011, 20:41
I can honestly say that FiveSeven is the ONLY handgun I have shot EVER which I was able to more/less GROUP at 200m open sights. I repeat: 200m open sights... That story at 3 shots and nothing is a BS - chances and reality of it is - at point blank it would have hurt a person standing behind a bad dude. If price of ammo was more reasonable ($0.45-$0.50per round right now) and a concealed version of 5.7x28 has emerged - I would switch to it in a Heart beat - both Home and Carry... Another plus of that round - in a self defense setting you actually will be able to hear afterwords vs. not hearing $-hit in just about anything else out there including/beyond .380.
Right this second - I would get away with buying my own new FiveSeven, but my wife will kick me out once I start spending $100week to shoot it (usually 200-300rounds a weekend for me) :) - thus I am holding off, not to mention, I hope prices will eventually drop beyond $1K for a new one.

jp3975
10-12-2011, 23:09
I can honestly say that FiveSeven is the ONLY handgun I have shot EVER which I was able to more/less GROUP at 200m open sights. I repeat: 200m open sights... That story at 3 shots and nothing is a BS - chances and reality of it is - at point blank it would have hurt a person standing behind a bad dude. If price of ammo was more reasonable ($0.45-$0.50per round right now) and a concealed version of 5.7x28 has emerged - I would switch to it in a Heart beat - both Home and Carry... Another plus of that round - in a self defense setting you actually will be able to hear afterwords vs. not hearing $-hit in just about anything else out there including/beyond .380.
Right this second - I would get away with buying my own new FiveSeven, but my wife will kick me out once I start spending $100week to shoot it (usually 200-300rounds a weekend for me) :) - thus I am holding off, not to mention, I hope prices will eventually drop beyond $1K for a new one.

Yeah...I dont get the price. At $600 id have one.

jp3975
10-12-2011, 23:10
In essense, no. Someone who has a better knowledge of this might be able to explain this better, but the ss197 Sporting round has a 40 grain bullet and should perform like other ballistic tips in that it rapidly fragments with a travel length between 7 and 14 inches (depending on barrel length and medium, that's what most people are getting).

The ss195 is different in that it was originally designed to mimic the ss192. Both light 27 (or 29, I forget) grain bullets are supposed to penetrate certain special barriers (perhaps you could say... certain kevlar) but when entering softer mediums such as tissue, organs, or wet phone books it is supposed to yaw or tumble creating a larger and more serious wound cavity than what it theoretically would have if the bullet simply punched straight through. Using the pistol, performance for the ss195 rarely reaches the FBI minimum 12 inches, at least that's what I have seen. I have easily achieved it with the PS90, but that's with a longer barrel of course.

Neither ss197 nor the ss195 are factory loaded as hot as the round's potential, hence the market for Elite Ammo. There are ALWAYS rumors that other companies will grow the balls to offer more loadings, but this seems to only be rumors. We all hope and dream, but so far it seems this cartridge is just too policitally radioactive.

So we are stuck essentially with either super expensive EA batches or kinda tepid factory loadings. And people are experiencing that the newer ss195 non-white-box loads are even MORE tepid than the older stuff! There are rumors for why this is the case, I could not tell you for certainly.

Fortunately the two factory loadings have proven more potent in real life situations than their performance on paper. I guess we shouldn't be that surprised. The explosive performance of certain 5.56x45 loadings can be attributed to its ability to tumble and then rapidly fragment (XM193 for instance) or just radically yaw (mk262). Even at far lower velocities and with lighter bullets, the ss195 has been reliably tumbling and the ss197 has been rapidly fragmenting in soft tissue. In fun ballistic gel tests the 5.7 does not look as nasty as a 5.56, they're far more impressive than .22 magnum. I have no idea why people still say, "the 5.7 is just a .22 Mag out of a rifle barrel." this is simply not the case.

I shouldn't be comparing 5.7x28 to 5.56x45 either (this happens all the time which is not all fair since the 5.7 was never designed to replace or compete vs. the 5.56) but I really do think that the designers of the 5.7 didn't just want to punch through Kevlar in a battlefield. When comparing this round to other sub gun cartridges (9mm, .45 acp, etc) it makes a LOT more sense. The PS90 is a PDW after all, NOT an assault rifle. So when comparing apples to apples, the 5.7 as a round really does well IMHO.

Just my .02

Thanks for the info.

So which is more desirable? HP or BT?

Tiro Fijo
10-13-2011, 00:30
Unbelievable what some people say. I can assure you that 3 rounds of ANY 5.7 load available would have done an incredible amount of damage on an unarmoured person. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any PD in Texas arming their police with 5.7's. TOTAL BS.


Brownsville, TX PD. Call 'em. If you want the SWAT officer's name who told me send me a PM. :wavey:

Adjuster
10-13-2011, 00:45
Brownsville, TX PD. Call 'em. If you want the SWAT officer's name who told me send me a PM. :wavey:


You dont think swat people tell stories like everyone else? Especially when the stories involve guns! Now if you can produce an official report then you got me on your side. At this time I am skeptical to the point of disbelief.

I cant think of a single round that would not penetrate through a rib cage at close range. .25, .22 is there anything smaller in common use? Okay Ill give you airsoft. And then to say it happened with three shots in the same occurrence. Were back to ridiculous.


/

Tiro Fijo
10-13-2011, 01:47
You dont think swat people tell stories like everyone else? Especially when the stories involve guns! Now if you can produce an official report then you got me on your side. At this time I am skeptical to the point of disbelief.

I cant think of a single round that would not penetrate through a rib cage at close range. .25, .22 is there anything smaller in common use? Okay Ill give you airsoft. And then to say it happened with three shots in the same occurrence. Were back to ridiculous.


/


Tell ya what, call the dept. on your dime tomorrow and ask them. I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't carry one. Just though I'd pass it on. :wavey:

kaifs
10-13-2011, 12:44
tried to do some research, purely to find out if any known PDs are actually issuing FiveSeven as far as a service pistol and did NOT find any. It is, however, common for Texas LEOs to receive a P90 as a personal defense weapon. Most common caliber in TX appears to be .357sig as far as a duty pistol. Again, I might be wrong nor do I challenge anyone, just wanted to share what I have came across

jp3975
10-13-2011, 15:20
tried to do some research, purely to find out if any known PDs are actually issuing FiveSeven as far as a service pistol and did NOT find any. It is, however, common for Texas LEOs to receive a P90 as a personal defense weapon. Most common caliber in TX appears to be .357sig as far as a duty pistol. Again, I might be wrong nor do I challenge anyone, just wanted to share what I have came across

Dont some depts allow officers to carry what they want?

However...its a ridiculous notion that 3 5.7 rounds failed to penetrate past the skin.

...maybe they where subsonics?

cdflippin
10-13-2011, 15:28
I love mine too!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff3/cdflippin/photo-3.jpg

kaifs
10-14-2011, 00:15
Dont some depts allow officers to carry what they want?

However...its a ridiculous notion that 3 5.7 rounds failed to penetrate past the skin.

...maybe they where subsonics?

Subsonics would kill/hurt just as good. I am thinking he had handloaded blanks or snap caps... I also wonder if a bad guy actually had bullet marks on him? May be that officer missed all together. at point blank my daughter's beeman pallet gun .177 will be few inches in at 1200fps and RWS pallets (not even the cone nose kind). I know this, because I was sighting it in the garage, so I am 20ft away from the 'target'. Target was a paper stapled to a 1/2" PLYWOOD behind it was a scrap piece of a particle board and two sheets of drywall. so set it in front of the shelves and start sighting it in. after half a dozen of shots or so I smell gasoline.... I see a wet mark on the floor. Did you guess it yet? Yep, zipped through everything solid (4 layers in a sense), and penetrated my red gas can. Pallets ended up in the can. Now, that was a break barrel $200 pallet gun shooting a lead pellet at 1200fps (or so it is rated).

ROG
10-14-2011, 06:14
I know an LEO with a south TX PD who told me that they used to issue the 5.7mm in the handgun and that they had a few shootings and that all were bad. Bad in that the round was worthless. One event the LEO shot a perp approx. three times at point blank range while being stabbed and all three bullets did not penetrate the rib cage at point blank range.

The PD quickly dropped the gun/round. It's a loser, pure & simple.
If you're going to recycle misinformation of that sort, you should at least try to make it sound remotely believable.

Here is a reality check from an actual shooting with 5.7x28mm. The female police officer that responded to the shooting at Fort Hood was shot in the knee. She was incapacitated and nearly died of her two leg wounds (the killer walked up to her, kicked her M9 pistol out of reach, and walked away).

The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as numerous news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.



http://sgtmunley.blogspot.com/

I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all.

I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed.



http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20091202/articles/912029944

Sgt. Kim Munley, who helped stop the shooter Nov. 5 at Fort Hood, Texas, will have to get an artificial knee, which means she will not be able to return to street patrol duty.



http://www.kasa.com/dpps/military/army/Fort-Hood-hero-faces-more-surgery-_3228588

Munley underwent total knee replacement surgery in January and still walks with a cane. She said the most difficult part of her recovery has been learning to rely on others.

ROG
10-14-2011, 06:21
Thanks for the info.

So which is more desirable? HP or BT?
I am of the opinion that the SS197 (Hornady V-MAX) would be more desirable for self defense; it penetrates deeper than the SS195 in ballistic gelatin, and still expands/fragments significantly in the process. The SS195 (hollow-point) is higher velocity, though, so it shoots very flat and makes a better target load.

Note that Elite Ammunition's 5.7x28mm loads are a big step above either the SS195 or SS197 in terms of performance:

www.eliteammunition.net




I can't bring myself to like that thing... no matter what I do. When I hold one and look down the sights it feels like they stick out so far above my hand that I just find it uncomfortable to aim.
FN offers a version with fixed sights, as a low profile alternative to the tall adjustable sights (I have tried both versions, and find the fixed sights preferable):

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/press/images/5.7_sights.jpg




I have one and it has accuracy issues when shooting up close(30 yards or less...) but works fine at 100.
The standard adjustable sights are set for 100 yards (SS195). The low profile fixed sights are set for about 25 feet (also SS195).

american lockpicker
10-14-2011, 17:43
I'm using the blue tipped stuff.

Ruggles
10-14-2011, 17:56
Three 5.7 rounds not penetrating a rib cage is crap. :rofl:

The bad internet rumors about this round continue to amaze me. I think air soft has better ballistics than a 5.7 to some people. :rofl:

Aegis86
10-17-2011, 01:52
Last but not least they are not AP rounds unless they are SS190 which is restricted items that's only issued to LE and govt agency......:rofl:

syntaxerrorsix
10-17-2011, 15:18
Kaifs's grouping at 200m with a pistol still has me impressed. With such a short sight plane I can whole heatedly confirm that is beyond my ability even at rest.

AK_Stick
10-17-2011, 15:55
Not convinced of the 5.7 unless you're dealing primarily with armored people, with proper ammo (as it was designed).


Its use on people, has been less than stellar, including one guy yelling to stop shooting him with that thing. (Never seen that even with a 9mm).


I think the caliber has some merits, and I would love to have one. But I don't think it'll be replacing my 9mm guns anytime soon.

syntaxerrorsix
10-17-2011, 16:09
Not convinced of the 5.7 unless you're dealing primarily with armored people, with proper ammo (as it was designed).


Its use on people, has been less than stellar, including one guy yelling to stop shooting him with that thing. (Never seen that even with a 9mm).


I think the caliber has some merits, and I would love to have one. But I don't think it'll be replacing my 9mm guns anytime soon.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1375275&highlight=shot+head+9mm

ROG
10-17-2011, 19:27
Its use on people, has been less than stellar, including one guy yelling to stop shooting him with that thing. (Never seen that even with a 9mm).
You're recycling misinformation from internet forums.

ROG
10-17-2011, 19:27
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1375275&highlight=shot+head+9mm
:supergrin:

That story looks to be fictional, but now that you mention it, the unofficial record for "most gunshot wounds survived" goes to a New York man that was shot 21 times by NYPD with 9mm hollowpoints...


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/man_shot_times_hears_first_details_7n0Y8ciCj95zaj2xzsUy4K

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Strange-News/Gunman-Shot-21-Times-And-Lives-Angel-Alvarez-Critical-After-Harlem-Shoot-Out-With-New-York-Cops/Article/201008215680186

A 23-year-old man has dodged death after being shot 21 times by police during a shoot-out at a New York street party.

.....

"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr Vincent DiMaio said.

"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

Walk Soft
10-17-2011, 19:51
Yes but they didn't hit any vital organs.

bac1023
10-17-2011, 20:13
Not convinced of the 5.7 unless you're dealing primarily with armored people, with proper ammo (as it was designed).


Its use on people, has been less than stellar, including one guy yelling to stop shooting him with that thing. (Never seen that even with a 9mm).


I think the caliber has some merits, and I would love to have one. But I don't think it'll be replacing my 9mm guns anytime soon.

Its certainly don't think its as effective as 9mm.

michael e
10-17-2011, 20:15
A friend of mine has one, I tried to like it. It's not bad but with no bulk ammo around at a good price, and not wanting to add a new caliber to the reloading right now it's not for me.

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 00:04
You're recycling misinformation from internet forums.



It is possible, that I'm wrong.

However, my experience with the 5.7 leads me to beleive that story. Both the source I heard it from, and the offical reports (not of that incident however) of use with the 5.7 that I have seen. I've met a couple contractors who used it in Iraq, and were less than impressed with its terminal performance on un-armored people. All said it was the bee's knees when used on people wearing armor, at close range.


Out of the P-90, its one thing, from the 5.7, its a whole different cartridge. And while I want one, and I wouldn't be afraid to use it should I have to, I remain skeptical of it, not that I'd line up infront of it either.

ROG
10-18-2011, 01:21
and the offical reports (not of that incident however) of use with the 5.7 that I have seen.
The only actual verifiable accounts of shootings with the 5.7x28mm would be:

- The Fort Hood shooting, which is very well-documented now (see some of the first-hand accounts, such as the one I posted on page 3).

- A handful of U.S. SWAT shootings like the one that was described in the Houston SWAT writeup on the P90 (by a 28-year veteran of HPD).

- Dozens upon dozens of news reports on shootings (mostly fatal, and mostly done with the Five-seveN pistol, aka "matapolicias") from the Mexican Drug War, and nearby countries like Colombia and the Dominican Republic. The news accounts from Mexico are supported by crime scene photos showing 5.7x28mm casings and/or the deceased victims themselves (many of those are graphic so I won't post them here).

The hearsay on this caliber that appears on internet forums is always completely unsubstantiated and unverifiable; people have been recycling these stories for years now, and they still can't trace them to anything more credible than posts on an internet forum.

In any case, all of the verifiable shootings I listed above clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers.




Out of the P-90, its one thing, from the 5.7, its a whole different cartridge.
The 5.7x28mm doesn't lose much velocity going from P90 to Five-seveN, or vice versa. Actually, EA's loads out of the Five-seveN pistol (4.8-inch barrel) are getting higher muzzle velocities than the SS190 gets out of the P90 (10.3-inch barrel), simply because FN's factory loads (SS190, SS195, SS197, etc.) don't take advantage of the caliber's full potential.

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 01:46
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree about it.


Finding a bunch of shell casings, and some dead mexicans is hardly a claim that the pistol is effective. Nor is shooting a group of fleeing unarmed people really that good of a case.

I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with it, but at the same time, its not a caliber that I think has a big advantage over any of the other service calibers, and some significant drawbacks to its use.

ROG
10-18-2011, 02:07
Finding a bunch of shell casings, and some dead mexicans is hardly a claim that the pistol is effective.
That would be dozens upon dozens of fatal shootings, each supported by news articles with video/photo evidence from the shootings.




Nor is shooting a group of fleeing unarmed people really that good of a case.
Being armed does not make an individual impervious or magically resistant to bullets; the wounds (and their effects) are not different. As for "fleeing," the soldiers at Fort Hood were highly motivated during that attack, one way or the other; all of them were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting. Two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to the trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him).

The female police officer mentioned earlier was also intent on stopping the shooter but by all reports, was incapacitated (and nearly died) by her leg wounds. The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.




its not a caliber that I think has a big advantage over any of the other service calibers
When stacked against any comparable (full-size) pistol, the Five-seveN is much lighter, recoils less, shoots flatter, and carries more ammunition (20+1 or 30+1). With some of EA's loads, it can also penetrate virtually any type of soft body armor.

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 02:34
You say that, but then a guy like Dr. Gary Roberts steps in and says something like

"Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol. I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than seen with a good 5.56 mm OTM or barrier blind JSP from 10-16 M-4"


Course if you don't like his opinion you could ask Mr Buford Boone at the FBI-BRF He might know a thing or two about ballistics too.



The simple fact is, the caliber isn't that useful, and not that many people issue it because of lackluster terminal performance. Though I don't know that anyone has used EA ammo in any of their shoots.


Here are some other people who commented on its poor terminal performance

Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

ROG
10-18-2011, 03:00
That was a real sidestep...

You say that, but then a guy like Dr. Gary Roberts steps in and says something like
His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am really not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums, but that doesn't count for anything. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, the 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I mentioned earlier, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.




the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ
Shooting gelatin does not tell one how "incapacitating" a projectile is or isn't, and we already know how "incapacitating" the 5.7x28mm caliber is at this point anyway, due to the wealth of information available from actual shootings with 5.7x28mm.




not that many people issue it because of lackluster terminal performance
Actually, hundreds of law enforcement agencies in the U.S. (alone) issue the P90, Five-seveN, or both. The weapons are also used in 40+ countries around the world. Agencies that don't issue the weapons have given various rationale for not using them, which in many cases does not relate to terminal performance at all.




Here are some other people who commented on its poor terminal performance

Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
You likely haven't even read any of these (ancient) papers. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago.

The two or three other papers on that list are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a weak simulant). All of the information is first-hand and/or supported by video/photo evidence, and clearly indicates that the caliber is every bit as effective as any of the common pistol calibers, even with FN's watered down loads.

Meanwhile, EA's 5.7x28mm loads are pushing heavier bullets at higher velocities, as independently chronographed by various sources.

Bilbo Bagins
10-18-2011, 09:04
Here is another opinion from Brassfetcher

http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2558.htm

He concluded that the 5.7 civilian ammo (SS-195) will not defeat III-A bullet proof vest, but due to its higher kinetic energy density, the SS-195 cartridge offer greater potential to disable the skeletal system of an attacker when compared to conventional handguns, meaning it punches thru bone well.

Also the bullet will flip and yaw in soft tissue creating a more wound trauma. However looking at the high speed gel test videos, I'm under-impressed.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1950.htm

TalkToTheGlock
10-18-2011, 10:08
Shoot someone in the CNS with a .44 or a .22 and they are done most likely. It doesnt matter what round you use.

Working in an ER I experienced people shot with a 12 gauge slug and lived and someone shot witg a .22 and died.

Shot placement. The 5.7 is great at armored enimes. Just as good aginst non.

Goodday


iPhone 4

american lockpicker
10-18-2011, 12:16
Last but not least they are not AP rounds unless they are SS190 which is restricted items that's only issued to LE and govt agency......:rofl:

I heard its completely legal as its a ".22" round, also doesn't it use the same bullets as m855?

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 12:22
That was a real sidestep...


His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am really not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.


You can argue his resume all you'd like, it still doesn't refute what he said, or the fact that there have been several 5.7 shootings resulting in failures to stop, and that most agencies who've gone to the 5.7, have stopped issuing/appropriating new ones.

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 12:26
I heard its completely legal as its a ".22" round, also doesn't it use the same bullets as m855?



The bullet they use is not the M855, as thats significantly longer and heavier than what they shoot in the AP loading.

Bilbo Bagins
10-18-2011, 13:00
You can argue his resume all you'd like, it still doesn't refute what he said, or the fact that there have been several 5.7 shootings resulting in failures to stop, and that most agencies who've gone to the 5.7, have stopped issuing/appropriating new ones.

Multiple foriegn miliaries including The Saudi Military, and US Secret Service, the Passaic NJ SWAT team, Duluth GA PD are using Five-Sevens. There has got to be a be some positive or negative report out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 13:23
I haven't seen a whole lot of published online case files, either way. There are several instances of use in Mexico, but since the average MO down there is a close range ambush, often with several shooters, caliber is largely circumstantial.

I do know first hand of a couple failures, which were the driving reasons that a couple of Wisconson SWAT units moved away from it.

I know of one more that was the cause of another unit moving away from it.

But none of those were commonly available online.


If someone really wants to dig up police reports, your best bet would be Buford Boone at the FBI, or Dr Roberts, both of whom are not only friendly and more than willing to share information, but also experts in their field.

NeverMore1701
10-18-2011, 13:37
I like the idea, the platform, and the round, I just don't like the price.

ROG
10-18-2011, 15:21
Last but not least they are not AP rounds unless they are SS190 which is restricted items that's only issued to LE and govt agency......:rofl:
EA's 5.7x28mm loads have been independently chronographed at much higher velocities than the FN SS190, and they're not restricted items.




You can argue his resume all you'd like, it still doesn't refute what he said
Yes, it does, and you completely sidestepped my entire post, so what I said stands.

Then there is the fact that the individual in question has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant.




or the fact that there have been several 5.7 shootings resulting in failures to stop
That's not a fact, that's misinformation that you read on internet forums. Stop perpetuating misinformation. Cite a reliable source or your claim has no validity (tip: internet forum posts do not qualify).

On the contrary, the fact is that we have a massive amount of information from dozens upon dozens of verifiable shootings with 5.7x28mm (most of them fatal), and all of that information (supported by actual first-hand accounts) indicates that the caliber is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers.




most agencies who've gone to the 5.7, have stopped issuing/appropriating new ones.
Completely false.

Again, you're regurgitating internet forum trash. Repeating the same internet stories ad nauseam will not make them true. Cite a reliable source (not an internet forum post) that indicates your above statement is true; otherwise, you're wrong.

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 16:15
I cited 6 sources actually, you've disagreed with them, but that doesn't make anything they wrote untrue.


But hey, beleive what you want. Doesn't make the 5.7 the wonder gun its not.

TumblingFTW
10-18-2011, 16:37
I cited 6 sources actually, you've disagreed with them, but that doesn't make anything they wrote untrue.


But hey, beleive what you want. Doesn't make the 5.7 the wonder gun its not.

Nobody called it a "wonder gun", just you. It looks like you got caught regurgitating misinformation about a platform that hardly anyone fully understands let alone a dentist with a hobby and an opinion.

The 5.7x28mm platform must be analyzed in a macro-field of view that includes its weight, capacity, and recoil. The Five-seveN pistol is not just a bullet. It is also 21 round (or 31 one round) tack-driver that allows multiple shots on target in blazing fast speeds.

TumblingFTW
10-18-2011, 16:43
Shoot someone in the CNS with a .44 or a .22 and they are done most likely. It doesnt matter what round you use.

Working in an ER I experienced people shot with a 12 gauge slug and lived and someone shot witg a .22 and died.

Shot placement. The 5.7 is great at armored enimes. Just as good aginst non.

Goodday


iPhone 4

And that, as they say, is that..



It's all about shot placement so you better know how to aim your pistol in a time of stress and have plenty of rounds in case of barriers and/or misses.

I carry 21 rounds in my Five-seveN that travel 2,600fps and deliver 405 ft-lbs of energy (that's more energy than nearly all law-enforcement issued 9mm and .45 caliber rounds). I can put three rounds in a very small circle from 7 yards before you can say "22 magnum". I can do this 7 times until my gun is empty. I don't carry spare magazines for obvious reasons.

Viper 1
10-18-2011, 16:46
And that, as they say, is that..



It's all about shot placement so you better know how to aim your pistol in a time of stress and have plenty of rounds in case of barriers and/or misses.

I carry 21 rounds in my Five-seveN that travel 2,600fps and deliver 405 ft-lbs of energy (that's more energy than nearly all law-enforcement issued 9mm and .45 caliber rounds). I can put three rounds in a very small circle from 7 yards before you can say "22 magnum". I can do this 7 times until my gun is empty. I don't carry spare magazines for obvious reasons.

Thanks,

What ammo are you using?

AK_Stick
10-18-2011, 16:51
Nobody called it a "wonder gun", just you. It looks like you got caught regurgitating misinformation about a platform that hardly anyone fully understands let alone a dentist with a hobby and an opinion.

The 5.7x28mm platform must be analyzed in a macro-field of view that includes its weight, capacity, and recoil. The Five-seveN pistol is not just a bullet. It is also 21 round (or 31 one round) tack-driver that allows multiple shots on target in blazing fast speeds.


That "Dentist with a hobby and an opinion" has the ear of some mighty big agencies, including .mil, and its funny his opinion, is backed up by the FBI's opinion as well.

I'd be interested in seeing your resume, since you seem so quick to dump on his.


There are some very attractive things about the 5.7, but its ballistics aren't one of those things. It needs those "multiple shots on target in blazing fast speeds" because its driving a tiny bullet, that doesn't fragment, and generally won't reach the 12' penetration goal that is widely accepted as a common goal in handgun performance.

Short of a CNS hit, the cartridge just doesn't have anything going for it. If you have a need to engage armored enemies, it might have some merit, but then again, AP 9mm rounds are also available, and offer similar performance, but still maintain better terminal ballistics.

TumblingFTW
10-18-2011, 17:33
Thanks,

What ammo are you using?

I am using EA S4M.

WoodenPlank
10-18-2011, 17:41
Multiple foriegn miliaries including The Saudi Military, and US Secret Service, the Passaic NJ SWAT team, Duluth GA PD are using Five-Sevens. There has got to be a be some positive or negative report out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

Last I heard, USSS was only issuing the 5.7 in VERY limited numbers, and the P229 in 357SIG was still the standard issue sidearm, and would continue to be so.

TumblingFTW
10-18-2011, 17:57
That "Dentist with a hobby and an opinion" has the ear of some mighty big agencies, including .mil, and its funny his opinion, is backed up by the FBI's opinion as well.

I'd be interested in seeing your resume, since you seem so quick to dump on his.


There are some very attractive things about the 5.7, but its ballistics aren't one of those things. It needs those "multiple shots on target in blazing fast speeds" because its driving a tiny bullet, that doesn't fragment, and generally won't reach the 12' penetration goal that is widely accepted as a common goal in handgun performance.

Short of a CNS hit, the cartridge just doesn't have anything going for it. If you have a need to engage armored enemies, it might have some merit, but then again, AP 9mm rounds are also available, and offer similar performance, but still maintain better terminal ballistics.

The tooth doc needs to stick to subjects he is competent in - the Five-seveN isn't one of them. He lost all credibility when he jumped at the opportunity to poo-poo the Five-seveN in the Fort Hood Massacre saying we were lucky he wasn't using a more potent caliber of weapon when he was downed by Sgt. Kimberly Munley. In fact, when the facts of the shooting were straightened out, it was Sgt. Munley and her 9mm who was downed by Hasan and his Five-Seven. She suffered a shattered femur and nearly died from blood loss.

Hasan was shot in the back five times by Sgt. Mark Todd and eventually succumbed... but did not die...

Doc Roberts DDS nearly tripped over himself to misreport the facts of the case in his attempt to once again take a jab at the Five-seveN. It was an embarrassing yet telling mistake... :whistling:

He needs to stick to finding plaque until he can control his emotions and discuss ballistics in a scientific, unbiased way... :yawn:

ROG
10-18-2011, 19:26
I cited 6 sources actually, you've disagreed with them, but that doesn't make anything they wrote untrue.
All of the stories you posted trace back to ambiguous posts that you read on internet forums. All of them.

All factual, verifiable information on shootings with the 5.7x28mm caliber indicates it's at least as effective as the common pistol calibers, even with FN's watered down ammunition.




That "Dentist with a hobby and an opinion" has the ear of some mighty big agencies, including .mil, and its funny his opinion, is backed up by the FBI's opinion as well.
That dentist's opinion is also grossly biased and outdated on this subject (by 10-20 years).




generally won't reach the 12' penetration goal that is widely accepted as a common goal in handgun performance.
Completely false.

A number of EA's 5.7x28mm loads meet and exceed the 12-inch penetration standard while expanding or tumbling. For example, here is a random Brassfetcher handload that expanded and penetrated 14+ inches in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3271/shot0301.jpg


And here is high speed video of EA's 50-grain Pro II load, fired from the Five-seveN pistol, expanding and exiting a block of calibrated ballistic gelatin:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv




AP 9mm rounds are also available, and offer similar performance, but still maintain better terminal ballistics.
1. AP 9mm rounds are not "available," unless by "available" you mean they have been produced before, somewhere, in obscure quantities.

2. AP 9mm rounds most certainly do not offer "similar performance" to 5.7x28mm on body armor; even if they were to be given the same pointed profile, they cannot possibly come close to the 5.7x28mm in terms of muzzle velocity.

3. AP 9mm rounds do not expand at all and are not long enough for tumbling to be a significant factor, so no, they do not have "better terminal ballistics."




I'd be interested in seeing your resume, since you seem so quick to dump on his.
He is not citing himself directly as a source on wound ballistics (i.e. "trust me"), so his credentials need not come into play; rather, he is citing verifiable information that anyone can access and read. DocGKR and his fanboys, on the other hand, are citing the man personally (i.e. "trust him, he knows"), and that is why his credentials do come into play.

To expand on that, you have been trying to use a completely erroneous appeal to authority (http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/appealauthterm.htm); in other words, a fallacy in which a rhetor seeks to persuade an audience not by giving evidence but by appealing to the respect people have for the famous. What's humorous is that the individual you are trying to use in such a manner does not even meet the notability criteria for his own Wikipedia article, and I explained to you why that is the case.

Nevertheless, let's assume for a moment that DocGKR is definitely a highly respected authority on wound ballistics (i.e. shooting gelatin), and he dislikes SS190 based on his experience shooting gelatin with it. In that case, your argument would still be completely devoid of actual evidence (forum stories don't count and DocGKR has posted no actual evidence of any sort), and your "authority" on the subject is still basing his opinion on testing done with a weak simulant (gelatin) and outdated ammunition (SS90 and SS190).

Basically, your entire argument is full of holes.

TalkToTheGlock
10-18-2011, 22:30
Penatration this and penatration that. It doesn't matter. Most fatalities from a GSW are from fragmentation of bone and shrapnel from the round breaking off.

I don't own the 5.7 but people vlaiming it wont get the job done is ridiculous. As I stated before (which nobody but tumbler cared to read) it doesn't matter what caliber gun you are using. Shot placement. Shot placement, shot placement. The 5.7 will ricochet inside a persons skull like a pinball and cause extensive cerebral bleeding ala a .22.

Thats where it comes into play. Also, tumbling, which has been proven in certain 5.7 rounds proves vital.

If you can name any calibre that you would want to be willing to be shot in the head with, please explain why?

Thanks


iPhone 4

Aegis86
10-19-2011, 02:10
Penatration this and penatration that. It doesn't matter. Most fatalities from a GSW are from fragmentation of bone and shrapnel from the round breaking off.

I don't own the 5.7 but people vlaiming it wont get the job done is ridiculous. As I stated before (which nobody but tumbler cared to read) it doesn't matter what caliber gun you are using. Shot placement. Shot placement, shot placement. The 5.7 will ricochet inside a persons skull like a pinball and cause extensive cerebral bleeding ala a .22.

Thats where it comes into play. Also, tumbling, which has been proven in certain 5.7 rounds proves vital.

If you can name any calibre that you would want to be willing to be shot in the head with, please explain why?



Thanks for speaking the truth and amen.

AK_Stick
10-19-2011, 03:13
1. AP 9mm rounds are not "available," unless by "available" you mean they have been produced before, somewhere, in obscure quantities.

2. AP 9mm rounds most certainly do not offer "similar performance" to 5.7x28mm on body armor; even if they were to be given the same pointed profile, they cannot possibly come close to the 5.7x28mm in terms of muzzle velocity.

3. AP 9mm rounds do not expand at all and are not long enough for tumbling to be a significant factor, so no, they do not have "better terminal ballistics."





I don't have time or, really care to argue about the rest, its ok you don't accept his opinion, the FBI and .mil do, thats good enough for the rest of the world.


However, about the 9mm,

1. & 2. I was talking available to LE. There are several currently produced AP 9mm rounds, which offer similar performance to the 5.7 I.E. will penetrate soft armor.


3. With a significantly larger nose (close to 60% larger I believe), heavier weight, 9mm AP ammo, will tumble, some will fragment, some do both, as well as still make between 12 and 14 or more inches in gel, while still offering the same performance against IIa, II, or IIIa soft armor.

So really, short of being a civilian, and having to deal with an armored foe, there isn't anything the 5.7 does, a standard service caliber can't. And yet, the 5.7 struggles to match even the 9mm in terms of tissue damage, or penetration.



But now you've piqued my interest, which of the EA loads go 12 inches in gel? I can see only a single one listed, two if you count the no longer in production X-terminator loading.

EA only claims the VarminTOR as going 13 inches, but they're now changing bullets, so that could very well be changing soon. Alot of the rest of them show either no gel listing, or a sub 12 inch reading.

Similarly, on brassfetcher, only a single load (handload at that) went 12+, and the other 3 loads they shot 190, 195, 197, all failed to hit 12 inches. Though they do have 197 leaving the block at 10 inches, it probably would have made 12 inches, had they shot a sufficiently large block.

ROG
10-19-2011, 05:23
I don't have time or, really care to argue about the rest, its ok you don't accept his opinion, the FBI and .mil do, thats good enough for the rest of the world.
I'm sure they do agree with him on some subjects, but that doesn't prove anything. What I said stands...

1. You have given no evidence from any independent, reliable source that DocGKR is an "authority" on wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

2. DocGKR has never tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. He has only tested SS90 and SS190.

3. DocGKR's opinion on the caliber is based on nothing but the internet stories (which don't count for anything), and his testing with the aforementioned FN loads in a weak simulant (gelatin).




1. & 2. I was talking available to LE.
That is irrelevant to the OP of this discussion, as well as most of the posters involved.




9mm AP ammo, will tumble
Indeed it will, but the projectile length is not significantly greater than its diameter, so tumbling is basically a non-factor with the 9mm. In contrast, some of the aforementioned 5.7x28mm loads have projectile lengths of up to .85 inches.




while still offering the same performance against IIa, II, or IIIa soft armor.
That is dubious, to say the least, and you haven't substantiated any of the claims you have made regarding 9mm AP loads.




But now you've piqued my interest, which of the EA loads go 12 inches in gel?
The 55-grain EA Penetrator, the 50-grain Protector 2, the 46-grain Protector 3, and the 45-grain Exterminator. The latter is discontinued, but they are replacing it with a different 45-grain projectile. You already found the penetration data for most of those loads, but here is an independent gelatin test with the 46-grain Protector 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0DuCw63XcQ

It penetrated about 11 inches in the first gelatin test shot, and exited the 14-inch block in the other two test shots (4-layer denim). It expanded and/or fragmented in all three test shots. The maximum diameters are shown at the end of the video (after the clay test).

Basically, any 5.7x28mm load weighing 40 grains or more can exceed the 12-inch penetration standard. All of this data applies to the Five-seveN pistol, by the way; the PS90 is capable of even better performance.




Though they do have 197 leaving the block at 10 inches, it probably would have made 12 inches, had they shot a sufficiently large block.
Indeed. Actually, if the SS197 tumbles (instead of expanding/fragmenting), it penetrates 14+ inches of ballistic gelatin. Another test shot from Brassfetcher:

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35619-1/FN57_40gr_9963.jpg

crash_gsxr750
02-11-2012, 06:45
This thread just makes me want to get one bad

As far as the argument for or against

It really comes down to some semi famous guy on one side of the fence and a pile of dead bodies and people disabled on the other and just like every other handgun caliber there are failures to stop as well

So I'll take the side with empirical evidence instead of someones opinion

NEOH212
02-11-2012, 07:12
Great gun, very low recoil and accurate as hell!

I wouldn't mind having one.

WoodenPlank
02-11-2012, 10:55
This thread just makes me want to get one bad

As far as the argument for or against

It really comes down to some semi famous guy on one side of the fence and a pile of dead bodies and people disabled on the other and just like every other handgun caliber there are failures to stop as well

So I'll take the side with empirical evidence instead of someones opinion

Huh? What the heck are you talking about?

crash_gsxr750
02-11-2012, 19:38
Huh? What the heck are you talking about?

the above argument between two posters on this thread.

thats all.