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StaTiK
10-09-2011, 22:04
I'm on a RCBS kick lately and haven't been able to find much info. This is not a "which is better" thread, just one to find some info.

Does anyone know where to find a caliber changeover video of a RCBS Pro 2000? "Gavin" has them for every press except the green one. Everyone says that the green press is excellent for changing calibers, and that the new PTX makes it competitive with the other colors, but I haven't seen it in action.

I'm specifically interested in the newish powder through expanders. A few people have posted the process of using a PTX on the RCBS, but I'm having a little trouble visualizing it.

Are there any videographers (or wordsmiths) out there?

-StaTiK-

StaTiK
10-09-2011, 22:06
I've also heard that cursing is involved when/if the APS gets jammed. Has anyone seen a video of the remedial action?

-StaTiK-

Tpro
10-09-2011, 23:32
I'm on a RCBS kick lately and haven't been able to find much info. This is not a "which is better" thread, just one to find some info.

Does anyone know where to find a caliber changeover video of a RCBS Pro 2000? "Gavin" has them for every press except the green one. Everyone says that the green press is excellent for changing calibers, and that the new PTX makes it competitive with the other colors, but I haven't seen it in action.

I'm specifically interested in the newish powder through expanders. A few people have posted the process of using a PTX on the RCBS, but I'm having a little trouble visualizing it.

Are there any videographers (or wordsmiths) out there?

-StaTiK-

The biggest issue I had with RCBS was/is price. IIRC it is as much (or more) than the Dillon, yet doesn't do anything more or have any more features than the Dillon or the LnL AP for that matter. I'm not sold on the priming system, but I've never used it. I know calibur changes are easy on the LnL AP, and from what I've seen the 650 doesn't look hard.

I also don't know how the PTX "makes it competitive with the other colors", when you can use the PTX on any press.

Again, the two big factors I look at are PRICE (and anyone who says price doesn't matter is fibbing at best) and what FEATURES you get. That's why I don't understand the 550 Dillon. I know many will argue it's simplicity but I don't want to pay that much and index the thing. So, I would need to understand what the Pro 2000 does so much better than the others, or, what features it has you don't get with something else. I looked hard at the P2K but didn 't see a value for the price.

Or, you can buy the P2K and see how it does. I'm sure it will operate perfectly and do what you want. I see no reason why it won't function like anything else.

StaTiK
10-10-2011, 02:13
I also don't know how the PTX "makes it competitive with the other colors", when you can use the PTX on any press.

Sorry if that came off wrong; I have no opinions of the RCBS because I've never used it. My point was that one of the biggest knocks against it used to be that it needed a separate expander station which made it similar in functionality to other 4 station presses.

-StaTiK-

IndyGunFreak
10-10-2011, 03:00
Everything I've ever *read* and *heard* (ie, never used one) about the Pro 2k's priming system, has been 100% positive.

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2011, 07:20
Here you go. That video has a bunch of links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJVkKV4UqUY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

I have a shooting friend who had a RCBS (don't know which one). When clean it worked great. Spill any small amount of powder and the primer setup would jam up badly. It seems RCBS has made some improvements in their machines but I don't know what he had vs the most recent model. He eventually got a LnL and is happy with the LnL. I would buy from a place that gave me a return policy to get all my money back (like Midway). Just to be safe.

IndyGunFreak
10-10-2011, 07:56
I have a shooting friend who had a RCBS (don't know which one). When clean it worked great..

Dirty priming systems, seems to be the achilles heel of every press. I figure it goes w/o saying that you need to keep the priming system clean in order for it to function properly.

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2011, 14:21
Some are worse then others. 550 didn't care about some spilt powder. I have yet to clean my 650 primer setup for any reason, LnL was also fine in that regard.

StaTiK
10-10-2011, 15:19
Here you go. That video has a bunch of links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJVkKV4UqUY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Thanks for the link, there are some good videos about press operation there. I didn't see any caliber changeovers or PTX usage, though, maybe I missed it.

Ultimate Reloader has a good video on adjusting the LNL (very similar powder measure) but he uses custom inserts made on a lathe. It's a pretty slick idea, but I'm trying to find how involved the process is for the average joe who doesn't have a machine shop in their garage.

If you haven't seen the custom insert I'm talking about, look here (start at 0:55) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0dRZhfEpH4&feature=channel_video_title).

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2011, 16:13
I took a look at the Powder Expander on the RCBS site. I like the design of it better then the LnL PTX I tried. It should allow unlimited flaring. It's going to basically require you to screw the powder measure down to increase flare. Hornady had issues with that so they provided the Limiter. This type of linkage doesn't like the torque applied to it when you flare. RCBS should have it figured out. It would seem that you could adapt the Hornady limiter to the RCBS with just a little work. If these things scare you I would just buy it from Midway. You got 30 days to return it. Also, RCBS has a very nice instruction manual on line. It doesn't include that part but to me it seems pretty simple (move the measure down for more flare).

unclebob
10-10-2011, 16:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnfeTPZeOMQ

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2011, 17:43
If you like seating and crimping in separate stations you are going to have to put the bullet on the case when it's back in the 11 o'clock position. Kinda back there a bit. Watch the video and you will see what I mean.

StaTiK
10-10-2011, 20:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnfeTPZeOMQ

"Gavin" does make great videos. This one is really helpful (as most of his are) but it doesn't show a PTX. If you jump to 5:13 he walks through the die setup and it uses a regular expander in station #2, which I think is how RCBS intended it.

If you like seating and crimping in separate stations you are going to have to put the bullet on the case when it's back in the 11 o'clock position. Kinda back there a bit. Watch the video and you will see what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean, that's one of the first things I noticed. In the video you can see him lean forward a little bit each time to look inside the case. Again, I've never used this press so I have no idea whether this is an issue or a non-issue. It does seem to be more ergonomic with a lockout die in station #4 and a seat/crimp in #5.

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-10-2011, 20:15
11:00 is about where seat it on the 550 (I used to seat it at station 2). But the difference is the 550 has a powder check at 7pm. Nice and easy to see. Pro 2000 has the powder check at 1pm and then you would seat at 11pm. Not ideal in my opinion. If you like seating and crimping at the same time it's a non issue. I would not like that as a limiting factor.

Tpro
10-11-2011, 13:29
StaTiK, you don't need a lathe in your shop to make those spacers on the vid. You need a piece of aluminum tubing (prolly could even be plastic if you can find the right i.d.) with the correct o.d and i.d (not that hard) a hack saw and some files.

Cut the tube to plus 1/16 inch of what you need and file flat on both ends. DONE. I actually have a lathe here at the house so I would use it but if I didn't I would use the file and hacksaw method. It's not rocket science. And a foot of tubing would build a LOT of spacers.

Just a thought................................

StaTiK
10-17-2011, 14:26
Again, the two big factors I look at are PRICE (and anyone who says price doesn't matter is fibbing at best) and what FEATURES you get. That's why I don't understand the 550 Dillon. I know many will argue it's simplicity but I don't want to pay that much and index the thing. So, I would need to understand what the Pro 2000 does so much better than the others, or, what features it has you don't get with something else. I looked hard at the P2K but didn 't see a value for the price.

Sorry about the late reply, it wasn't until I read the post again that I noticed your question.

The features that I find interesting regarding the Pro 2000:
- APS priming looks promising. Perhaps more importantly, changing primer sizes seems to be the easiest of any progressive press and it looks like depth adjustment is super simple (and near unlimited depth).
- A fixed PM at station #3 with a micrometer means you only need one for every pistol caliber (affecting price). Though admittedly you need to expand in station #2 to maximize the efficiency of the stationary PM, which has its own repercussions.

One gripe that I have is that I cannot find any steals on a used one. With RCBS's reputation and warranty I would prefer to find a used one but cannot. Dillon 550s, for example, pop up from time to time when people upgrade to a 650... or at estate sales or during economic downturns.

-StaTiK-

StaTiK
10-17-2011, 14:43
11:00 is about where seat it on the 550 (I used to seat it at station 2). But the difference is the 550 has a powder check at 7pm. Nice and easy to see. Pro 2000 has the powder check at 1pm and then you would seat at 11pm. Not ideal in my opinion. If you like seating and crimping at the same time it's a non issue. I would not like that as a limiting factor.

It took me watching a couple more YouTube videos before I figured out that you meant to visually inspect at station 2 (7 o'clock) before indexing and seating at station 3 (11 o'clock).

Did you have any priming issues with your 550b?

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-17-2011, 14:54
No priming issues with my 550. You just keep it clean. I would wipe the area right in front of the slider before loading. When it would finally hang up I would clean the setup. Cleaning takes 5 mins. Wiping takes 5 secs. I probably cleaned ever 2-3K rounds but I never kept track. It was not a big deal. There are a couple ways people could put the setup together to make it more likely to have issues. I would be happy to walk you through how I did it. My entire 550 experience was extremely positive.

Tpro
10-17-2011, 21:28
Sorry about the late reply, it wasn't until I read the post again that I noticed your question.

The features that I find interesting regarding the Pro 2000:
- APS priming looks promising. Perhaps more importantly, changing primer sizes seems to be the easiest of any progressive press and it looks like depth adjustment is super simple (and near unlimited depth).
- A fixed PM at station #3 with a micrometer means you only need one for every pistol caliber (affecting price). Though admittedly you need to expand in station #2 to maximize the efficiency of the stationary PM, which has its own repercussions.

One gripe that I have is that I cannot find any steals on a used one. With RCBS's reputation and warranty I would prefer to find a used one but cannot. Dillon 550s, for example, pop up from time to time when people upgrade to a 650... or at estate sales or during economic downturns.

-StaTiK-

I like to save cash too, but sometimes you've got to spend money to get something. You can spend 80% of new (roughly) to get a used Dillon, or you can pay full price. I never EVER spend 80% of retail for ANYTHING used. But that is me. I don't care about warranty or if it's made factory new for free. If I'm buying used I'm not paying 80% of retail no matter whose name is on the valve covers.

Maybe you need to step up and wrench open the wallet for a P2K. You can make avid or take pics and post them here. Who knows. You may be ahead of the curve on this.

For point of reference I was >< this close to buying that press. I had an engineer from RCBS on the phone for 40 minutes. We went over tolerances, manufacturing processes, heat treating and finishing procedures (without my notes that is all I can think of but I'm sure we covered other things as well) but in the end I didn't care for the priming set up (you might like it) and the mechanism for indexing...and a couple of other things. But I have no doubt the RCBS is worth a try.

StaTiK
10-17-2011, 22:32
but in the end I didn't care for the priming set up (you might like it) and the mechanism for indexing...and a couple of other things. But I have no doubt the RCBS is worth a try.

I actually think the priming and indexing are positives for me. I do have some reservations on other things, though, which is why I am searching for videos. I'm honestly not trying to rally for or against any press, but trying to educate myself before spending (what I consider) lots of money.

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-18-2011, 19:46
APS Strips to hold 200 primers $5.79
APS Loader cost $32.99
Press is $580
Die Plate $18.99
Shellplates are $30.99

So the Dillon Primer setup is cheaper.
Caliber conversion is Higher on the 650 (by a good amount)
Caliber conversions get you a good casefeeder for the extra cost, and a good PTX setup.

If you have a lot of caliber conversions and plan on loading a lot of rifle the RCBS should be really good. If your into pistol and lots of it I am confident the 650 is a better choice. Casefeeder trumps bullet feeder because your going to have more issues getting a bullet feeder to run with lead and other options. It's a really nice looking piece in some ways. They do have a primer setup for tubes as well. I think it can be a good choice in some ways if you understand that in some ways your painting yourself into a corner (no casefeeder, weird and more expensive APS strips PTX setup is going to be a little more finicky the the Dillon).

StaTiK
10-18-2011, 23:34
APS Strips to hold 200 primers $5.79
APS Loader cost $32.99
Press is $580
Die Plate $18.99
Shellplates are $30.99

So the Dillon Primer setup is cheaper.
Caliber conversion is Higher on the 650 (by a good amount)
Caliber conversions get you a good casefeeder for the extra cost, and a good PTX setup.

If you have a lot of caliber conversions and plan on loading a lot of rifle the RCBS should be really good. If your into pistol and lots of it I am confident the 650 is a better choice. Casefeeder trumps bullet feeder because your going to have more issues getting a bullet feeder to run with lead and other options. It's a really nice looking piece in some ways. They do have a primer setup for tubes as well. I think it can be a good choice in some ways if you understand that in some ways your painting yourself into a corner (no casefeeder, weird and more expensive APS strips PTX setup is going to be a little more finicky the the Dillon).

I think you make valid points, especially about "painting yourself into a corner". I think having a fixed PM is genius, but having it fixed in station #3 of 5 does limit your options. The press also lacks the option for a casefeeder, strong mount, and roller handle (essential/nonessential depending on who you ask).

I'm not really convinced that APS is more expensive, though. They're the same price as regular CCI when purchased in lots of 5000, and the strips are reusable (infinitely reusable if RCBS will replace them). The press also comes with a loader if you want to use Tula, for example, instead of CCI.

If I were to buy one today I would skip the bullet feeder, skip the PTX, use the APS system instead of tubes, and use a powder check in station #4 with seat/crimp in station #5. I would probably try to mount the Dillon powder check since I would be willing to drill a hole through the die plate (but not through the frame like a LNL).

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-19-2011, 04:31
I had forgotten the APS comes for about the same price in some brands as bare primers. That is kinda nice. Not a reason to buy the press but still nice. 5 years from now we have no idea what they will sell and how. But at least you can stock up on APS strips for free.

StaTiK
10-21-2011, 00:41
Well I did find a non-YouTube video showing a changeover from 40 to 45. This is focused on the bullet feeder but shows a turret change off camera.

Not exactly what I was looking for (no primer change, etc) but better than what I had.

Video HERE (http://s935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/gstrad/Hornady%20Bullet%20Feeder%202/?action=view&current=MVI_0932-1.mp4#!oZZ26QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs935.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad195%2Fgstrad%2FHornady%2520Bul let%2520Feeder%25202%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DMVI_0935.mp4)

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-21-2011, 07:11
So I read the instructions for that machine again. Just to try and figure out what needs to be done to convert different primer sizes. It's amazing how similar to a 550 this thing really is. Same spring loaded ball for index (large size, not small like on the lnl), same paper clip thingy to hold cases in station 1, same star indexer if you get the manual index version. It really looks good in many ways. I don't know how I would like some of the ergonomics. But on to the primer setup. It's actually brilliant (assuming it works, I never assume that). The Pro 2000 has a primer punch very much like a 650. Much larger then the LnL version of a same design. You simply unscrew it and install the other size. After that you just feed it the right primer strip and your done. Really nice actually. You do have the ability to set primer depth. Not sure how important that is with a "push to prime setup". If the primer setup on this press works (I had a friend with a RCBS progressive of some sort that had primer issues). But the instructions are very intriguing.

StaTiK
10-21-2011, 09:14
So I read the instructions for that machine again. Just to try and figure out what needs to be done to convert different primer sizes. It's amazing how similar to a 550 this thing really is. Same spring loaded ball for index (large size, not small like on the lnl), same paper clip thingy to hold cases in station 1, same star indexer if you get the manual index version. It really looks good in many ways. I don't know how I would like some of the ergonomics. But on to the primer setup. It's actually brilliant (assuming it works, I never assume that). The Pro 2000 has a primer punch very much like a 650. Much larger then the LnL version of a same design. You simply unscrew it and install the other size. After that you just feed it the right primer strip and your done. Really nice actually. You do have the ability to set primer depth. Not sure how important that is with a "push to prime setup". If the primer setup on this press works (I had a friend with a RCBS progressive of some sort that had primer issues). But the instructions are very intriguing.

I think "intriguing" is the right word. I can't/won't say that it is better but I think it definitely has potential. As for using the primer depth adjustment, I guess it may depend on how much leverage the press has to know if one would rather seat by depth or by feel.

I re-watched an UltimateReloader video last night to see how easy visual inspection is at station #4. It seems OK for him, but I noticed that his press is way lower than I would like. He really leans his whole body down on the downstroke.

But on to the primer setup. It's actually brilliant (assuming it works, I never assume that).
Been burned before, eh?

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
10-21-2011, 11:00
He has all his presses to low.
I watched the video. You would need to seat one station back to seat and crimp separately. Then that indexing plate is in the way and it's a long way back. Also, doing a primer strip every 25 rds or so seems like a PITA to me. Watching him click them together looked cumbersome to me. As much as I like a lot of things, those things would bug me.

unclebob
10-21-2011, 13:24
Also, doing a primer strip every 25 rds or so seems like a PITA to me. Watching him click them together looked cumbersome to me. As much as I like a lot of things, those things would bug me.
You and a lot of other people. Bad enough you have to stop about every 100 primers to refill the primer magazine. Also the refilling of the strips.

Peter M. Eick
10-30-2011, 05:54
As someone who has a pro2000, and have now loaded over 300,000 rounds with it, I find your comments in general quite interesting.

I like the aps system and never thought of having to drop another in at 25 rounds a big deal. It is very easy to clip another one in while the press is operating so I just do it instincively now. To me the APS is an advantage as I have never blown a primer, nor have ever even read of a blown primer with one. This is not something that can be said about tube primer systems. Why else would dillon advertise its "blast sheid" for their progressives. I buy my primers in strips and just go to town. No big deal. There was a time when during the great primer shortage where I could have APS primers cheaper than normal.

I do agree with some of the comments about the powder measure on the third station. I put my powder check there and dispense powder and prime on station 2. I use a ptx die myself and have spliced in my uniflow into a hornady setup as it works slightly better than my uniflow by itself. By the way, the uniflow with the micrometer screw setup is an excellent powder measure that works much better than the slide bars I have seen on some other progressives.

By seating at stage 4 and then crimping on 5 I can use an FCD where it works (357 sig) and redding profile crimp dies on pretty much everything else.

Let me be the first to say that the Pro2000 is not perfect, just darn close. If it were up to me, I would make it a 7 station press and not have an exchangeable die plate. This way I could do more rifle calibers on it and have a bit more flexibility on die placement and location. I would definately keep the APS though and the auto rotate feature.

StaTiK
10-30-2011, 11:18
By seating at stage 4 and then crimping on 5 I can use an FCD where it works (357 sig) and redding profile crimp dies on pretty much everything else.

Peter, thanks for in insight. How is the visibility at station #4? Is a visual powder check easy or do you have to lean forward every time?

-StaTiK-

Peter M. Eick
10-30-2011, 18:08
Reasonable but I sit slightly to that side. I somewhat rely on the RCBS powder check die in 3 and have found that with most pistol powders it is good to 0.2 grns detection limit. It will easily catch a double or no-charge, and if properly adjusted can catch a low charge.

So far, it has only caught one screw up but frankly I knew about it before it detected it.