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illrooster132
10-13-2011, 13:23
hello .I've been having this little problem. im reloading lead 9mm bullets. problem is that some bullets dont sit all the way in an after market G19 barrel:dunno:. they sit ok in my hi power but not in the G19 barrel.:wow:
any one had this experience before? what can cause and whats the fix?:shocked:
for now im checking my reloads with both barrels to sort'em out, but it gets tiring .:embarassed:

GioaJack
10-13-2011, 13:37
Being lead rather than jacketed or plated really has nothing to do with your problem... that lies in the fact that you're not loading for a particular barrel.

Consider barrels the same way you would look at snowflakes, no two are alike. Just because one loaded round will function in the barrel of a given make of gun has no correlation what-so-ever that it will function in another gun of the same barrel.

When loading for a particular gun, (barrel), forget how you're loading for another one of your guns and determine your OAL by doing a simple barrel drop test. You may find that you need to use a different OAL for three different guns.

Forget about manual published OAL's or OAL's listed by forum posters, they have no relation to what you're trying to accomplish for your guns.

Contrary to popular, misguided belief, a set of calipers is not needed for successful and safe loading... it is simply a matter of learning what to do.

(The use of calipers does make for a lively discussion at lunch with Little Stevie however.)


Jack

illrooster132
10-13-2011, 13:46
well. the aol does not seem to be the problem, is more like the case is thicker at the bottom for some reason. i was thinking that a case gauge could be of use here. ( I dont have one , never had the need for one as I used to load fmj )

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 13:53
Either your OAL is the problem, as Jack points out, or you need a LRCH more crimp. Those aftermarket barrels everyone seems to think people need for Glocks are notorious for tight chambers. Make you 9mm rounds into 8.8mm rounds and they will fit fine. Or, you can use the stock barrel and your life will be a lot easier.

GioaJack
10-13-2011, 13:56
A case gauge will tell you less than a barrel drop test, there is no real reason to have one. You might want to check two things first. Are you removing the bell/flare sufficiently to allow the round to drop freely into the barrel? This will mimic a round that is not sized properly.

Did you, for some reason change the setting on your sizer die... is it adjusted down to the shell plate so it sizes the case completely?

It is not unusual to have an after market barrel with a tighter chamber, actually seems to be the norm rather than the exception but usually it manifests itself in feeding problems rather than simply too tight to accept a dropped in round.


Jack

fredj338
10-13-2011, 14:33
Sounds like you have one or more issues. Drop a sized only case into the chamber, if it fits, then it's not the case. Then drop a dummy round in w/ a lead bullet, always crimp. If it doesn't fit, try seating 0.001" deeper until it does. Then if shooting near the top end loads, adjust your powder charged down 0.1-0.2gr depending on how much deeper you seat. As Jack notes, OAL is ALWAYS gun & bullet specific, regardless of what any data source tells you.
Most after market bbls have tighter specs & often shorter throats. You'll have to adjust accordingly. If your FMJ fit, it's not likely the case UNLESS the chamber dims are minimal. Then an oversized lead bullet may not fit. BTW, it would help if you told us the bullets you are trying to use??????

ColoCG
10-13-2011, 15:26
I agree with what Jack, Wisky, and Fred have all said. Your shouldn't be loading to fit a case guage, you should be loading to fit your tight chambered barrel, and adjust accordingly.

jsnake
10-13-2011, 15:26
Some great advice from Jack, again. I "plunk" test rounds in the barrel I am planning to shoot.

Colorado4Wheel
10-13-2011, 15:32
Let me guess. Lone Wolf Barrel? Even KKM and SL suffer from the same issue. LW seems to be more erratic and tighter for some reason. You going to need to load short, much shorter then you think wise. I load my 147gr Lyman Lead Bullets to 1.080" in 9mm. Thats actually pretty normal.

illrooster132
10-13-2011, 18:01
this are kkm and lwb barrels. i think the barrel are a bit tighter than oem. what confuses me is that i have some round that drop ok and some dont. i will have to check the case brand.
a crimp die is on the " to buy list now ".
thanx for the coments and help folks.

norton
10-13-2011, 18:32
Being lead rather than jacketed or plated really has nothing to do with your problem... that lies in the fact that you're not loading for a particular barrel.

Consider barrels the same way you would look at snowflakes, no two are alike. Just because one loaded round will function in the barrel of a given make of gun has no correlation what-so-ever that it will function in another gun of the same barrel.

When loading for a particular gun, (barrel), forget how you're loading for another one of your guns and determine your OAL by doing a simple barrel drop test. You may find that you need to use a different OAL for three different guns.

Forget about manual published OAL's or OAL's listed by forum posters, they have no relation to what you're trying to accomplish for your guns.

Contrary to popular, misguided belief, a set of calipers is not needed for successful and safe loading... it is simply a matter of learning what to do.

(The use of calipers does make for a lively discussion at lunch with Little Stevie however.)


Jack

Have you been on a Rocky Mountain high again my friend?
You mean the OAL listed in manuals can be ignored? Always?

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 18:35
this are kkm and lwb barrels. i think the barrel are a bit tighter than oem. what confuses me is that i have some round that drop ok and some dont. i will have to check the case brand.
a crimp die is on the " to buy list now ".
thanx for the coments and help folks.

You don't need a crimp die. You need to ensure that your seating die is adjusted properly. You don't need the aftermarket barrels either.

GioaJack
10-13-2011, 18:55
Have you been on a Rocky Mountain high again my friend?
You mean the OAL listed in manuals can be ignored? Always?

Long ago, in a far away land when large toothed creatures and demons ruled the darkness OAL's published in loading manuals were minimum OAL which corresponded with their published pressure data. (They may still be published as minimum OAL as far as I know... I don't pay any attention to them. Yes I know, I'm a bad boy.)

Reloads can easily be produced, (safe and accurate) without the use of calipers as long as one learns the basics of loading and the principals behind it.

There are several of us lurking around here, and many, many elsewhere that loaded for years without owning calipers simply because we couldn't afford them and learned how to load without them. My first caliper was a plastic one from Lyman, (still have it, Little Stevie and Zombie Steve have seen it although I didn't let Zombie touch it 'cause it would have ended up in pieces), and had the accuracy of a smoothbore musket at 500 yards.

As I mentioned before and as Fred has harped on since the day before they invented dirt, published OAL's, (except for minimums for safety sake and even those can be a mere guide if you know what you're doing), mean absolutely nothing since they will always be barrel or cylinder specific.

Oh, and I'm always on a Rocky Mountain High, just like John Denver... although it didn't work out all that well for him.


Jack

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 18:56
Have you been on a Rocky Mountain high again my friend?
You mean the OAL listed in manuals can be ignored? Always?

They are guidelines and probably help to keep the given bullet within SAAMI standards, which should fit all barrels. Honeslty, the only people that seem to have problems with OAL are those shooting oddball guns made 70 years ago or those using aftermarket snakeoil barrels.

Colorado4Wheel
10-13-2011, 19:10
Long ago, in a far away land when large toothed creatures and demons ruled the darkness OAL's published in loading manuals were minimum OAL which corresponded with their published pressure data. (They may still be published as minimum OAL as far as I know... I don't pay any attention to them. Yes I know, I'm a bad boy.)

Jack

They still basically are as you describe. Essentially they are the OAL the load was developed at. You can go longer with out cause for concern of overpressure. You can't go lower with out being aware that it will increase pressure. That's just basic stuff really. What people always fail to understand at the start is that the OAL in a manual has zero correlation to what will work in your barrel. Especially a LW or a KKM type barrel.

CitizenOfDreams
10-13-2011, 19:50
I agree with what Jack, Wisky, and Fred have all said. Your shouldn't be loading to fit a case guage, you should be loading to fit your tight chambered barrel, and adjust accordingly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a round that fits a case gauge fit any barrel made for the same caliber? :dunno:

GioaJack
10-13-2011, 20:04
Think of a case gauge as a device used to measure width rather than length... kinda like how some guys rationalize.

Although it would certainly be easy enough to make a case gauge for a specific barrel that would no guarantee that the produced round would have the correct OAL for a different barrel.

Unless one is afflicted with some handicap that prevents them from removing the barrel from their gun it really is a non-issue.


Jack

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 20:10
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a round that fits a case gauge fit any barrel made for the same caliber? :dunno:

It would if the case guage and barrels were all made to the same standards.

Colorado4Wheel
10-13-2011, 20:14
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a round that fits a case gauge fit any barrel made for the same caliber? :dunno:

Most case gauges are just like a short tube with a shoulder for the case to butt up against. Then the length of the tube is the max length for that caliber. The small hole is slightly larger then the size of a bullet. So you can drop a bullet through the gauge and it will slide right through. For a gauge to check the bullet fit to a chamber it would have to be made with a chamber reamer and the hole past the shoulder smaller then the bullet (size of a barrel). Only one made like that to my knowledge is the EGW. Even then you have no idea if the reamer they used to make that gauge is the same as was used to make your barrel. Basically, it has very little chance. I know the EGW is actually made smaller and tighter then my KKM barrel. So if it fit the gauge it fit my barrel. But many that didn't fit the gauge still fit the KKM barrel. It wasn't the case that was not fitting the gauge. It was the barrel portion of the gauge. So I opened the gauge up a little with a chamber reamer. Now they match in my common bullet size. I know that is a lot of detail. Basically, I made a case gauge that is a perfect match with my specific barrel and that specific bullet.

fredj338
10-13-2011, 21:30
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a round that fits a case gauge fit any barrel made for the same caliber? :dunno:

As Jack notes, a case gage tells you if the round fits the chamber, not if the OAL is correct. There is nor bbl or rifling for the bullet to run into. So while useful, the case gage tells you zero about the proper OAL for YOUR gun & bullet. As always, OAL is gun & bullet specific.

CitizenOfDreams
10-13-2011, 21:57
It would if the case guage and barrels were all made to the same standards.

Each caliber standard has maximum dimensions (OAL, case length, bullet diameter, case diameter, taper angle etc). Any round that does not exceed those dimensions should fit any barrel made to the caliber specifications.

When you shop for factory ammo, do you see boxes labeled "9mm Glock 17", "9mm HK USP" or "9mm Beretta 92"? :dunno:

CitizenOfDreams
10-13-2011, 22:03
So while useful, the case gage tells you zero about the proper OAL for YOUR gun & bullet. As always, OAL is gun & bullet specific.

So why would a reloader want to make ammo that fits his specific gun, as opposed to ammo that conforms to the standard and fits any gun in this caliber? :dunno:

fredj338
10-14-2011, 00:39
So why would a reloader want to make ammo that fits his specific gun, as opposed to ammo that conforms to the standard and fits any gun in this caliber? :dunno:
What you are missing is that diff bullets don't fit into the SAAMI spec. Diff guns have slight variations. An exmaple; the Lyman manual calls for an OAL of 1.722" (SAAMI max) for it's 225grLRN. Many guns won't run w/ that bullet, or any other RNFMJ for that matter, that long. The Lee 228grLRN has an odd ogive, you can;t even get close to the SAAMI max w/ that bullet in any 45 that I own & that is a few. So if you want reliable ammo, you fit the bullet to your bbl. If you have one odd gun/bbl, then load your ammo to that max OAL so it runs in any of your guns.:dunno:

CitizenOfDreams
10-14-2011, 00:55
So how do the big manufacturers solve this problem? What do Federal or PMC do to make ammo that fits all their customers' guns?

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2011, 07:16
So why would a reloader want to make ammo that fits his specific gun, as opposed to ammo that conforms to the standard and fits any gun in this caliber? :dunno:

Show me the "Standard" for lead bullets in 9mm. It doesn't exist. 9mm was designed around FMJ. Plus he has a Match Barrel (I hate even saying that), That's the majority of the problem really.

FLSlim
10-14-2011, 07:40
Another reminder of why GT reloading is both educational and entertaining! Thanks.

I have little to add, except that I have 3 pistols chambered in 45 acp and they aren't very picky about OAL for FMJ bullets. However, for lead and JHP, it is a far different story: for these bullets, the OAL is set to fit (plunk test) the barrel with the tightest tolerance (shortest chamber). So, as others have said, tailor your load to the pistol(s) in which it is to be used.

CitizenOfDreams
10-14-2011, 07:51
Show me the "Standard" for lead bullets in 9mm. It doesn't exist. 9mm was designed around FMJ.

Another stupid question (my favorite kind): why don't they simply make lead bullets in the same shape as FMJ bullets? I understand special applications like wadcutters, but why does a round nose lead bullet have to be radically different from a round nose FMJ bullet? :dunno:

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2011, 08:25
Lead is normally .001" larger. Otherwise they lead horribly. Hence the issue.

illrooster132
10-14-2011, 08:45
Each caliber standard has maximum dimensions (OAL, case length, bullet diameter, case diameter, taper angle etc). Any round that does not exceed those dimensions should fit any barrel made to the caliber specifications.

When you shop for factory ammo, do you see boxes labeled "9mm Glock 17", "9mm HK USP" or "9mm Beretta 92"? :dunno:

this is my same idea. i wonder why there should be different measures for barrel manufacturer. are there any standars when manufacturing???:dunno:
again the AOL is not the problem the bullets have been seated bellow the minimun recomended AOL.
i will check the case for same width at the top and bottom of the case. :dunno:

ColoCG
10-14-2011, 08:46
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a round that fits a case gauge fit any barrel made for the same caliber? :dunno:

Sorry I wasn't online to answer your question but I think it has been answered sufficiently by several responders.

To add another twist to your question even if the cartridge fits in a case gauge and fits a drop test in your barrel doesn't mean that load will function in your gun.

I've loaded 185gr. LSWC bullets in my Springfield XD that fit a case gauge and the barrel fine but won't function reliably not matter what col I tried.

This was before I heard that the XD has problems with at least LSWC bullets.
I now load a 200gr. RNFP bullet that works fine. RN bullets also work.

So sometimes you have to look at individual components to taylor your load to an individual gun, not just whether it fits all the specs in a gauge.

illrooster132
10-14-2011, 08:51
also. the bullets are made in one batch. meaning that they all have the same overall measurements. but somehow some drop ok and some will not drop all the way. what gives??? it must be the cases' bottom that is not resized correctly? again i will check on that.

ColoCG
10-14-2011, 08:59
also. the bullets are made in one batch. meaning that they all have the same overall measurements. but somehow some drop ok and some will not drop all the way. what gives??? it must be the cases' bottom that is not resized correctly? again i will check on that.


Also have you checked your crimp? Your seating die is your crimping die also. The crimp is adjusted by lowering the die body. If you don't have the instructions for adjusting it let us know and we can walk you thru it.

fredj338
10-14-2011, 09:05
So how do the big manufacturers solve this problem? What do Federal or PMC do to make ammo that fits all their customers' guns?

Steve nailed it, SAAMI specs are designed around a specific bullet. That way it fits 99% of the guns/bbls out there. Go away from say a 115gr or 124gr FMJ, things start changing qucikly. Just like the factory ammo, you can make any bullet work in 99% of all guns. Just keep in mind; OAL is ALWAYS bullet & gun specific.:whistling:
Another stupid question (my favorite kind): why don't they simply make lead bullets in the same shape as FMJ bullets? I understand special applications like wadcutters, but why does a round nose lead bullet have to be radically different from a round nose FMJ bullet?
There are some ball equiv designs, but there are also a ton of diff designs for diff purposes. Even then, you still want to make sure the OAL fits you gun's mag & bbl, regardless of the data.

fredj338
10-14-2011, 09:11
also. the bullets are made in one batch. meaning that they all have the same overall measurements. but somehow some drop ok and some will not drop all the way. what gives??? it must be the cases' bottom that is not resized correctly? again i will check on that.

If you load mixed headstamp brass, your crimp will vary. That could be the issue. Older brass is less ductile than new brass, so siziing can get wierd w/ older cases having enough neck tension. If you are getting 95% good reloads & a few not chambering, look @ the headstamps. If it's all the same brass, then it's likely the mixed brass issue & your crimp, lack of or too much. Over crimping can cause a slight bulge that resists chambering in match spec bbls.

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2011, 11:27
Steve nailed it,


Nailed it. :rock::exercise:

also. the bullets are made in one batch. meaning that they all have the same overall measurements. but somehow some drop ok and some will not drop all the way. what gives??? it must be the cases' bottom that is not resized correctly? again i will check on that.

Very likely not a sizing issue. More likely a crimp issue. You can probably still drop those in the barrel that don't go "thunk" and the base of the case will still wiggle a little.

GioaJack
10-14-2011, 11:31
Nailed it. :rock::exercise


Over nine-thousand posts and you finally lucked out and got something right... now I suppose you want a cookie.

Oh, what are you doing at home sitting in front of the computer, aren't you supposed to be out working? :dunno:


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2011, 11:52
Eating lunch.:eat:

Hammerdown77
10-14-2011, 12:06
Sorry if I missed where someone said this already, but....

Ogive of the bullet seems to be a bigger deal in 9mm than in other pistol cartridges in how it affects seating depth. (if you don't know, ogive is just the shape of the nose, the "curvature" if you will).

I ordered some round nose 124 grain lead bullets from a manufacturer, looked like standard FMJ round nose bullets, but seated to the same OAL as the factory rounds, the bullets would not drop into my Beretta's chamber. They were quite a ways from dropping all the way in, actually. The bullet nose was hitting the rifling (the leade) before the case head was flush with the back of the barrel.

The reason is that the ogive of the lead bullet was "fatter", not as pointy as the FMJ bullet. It was different enough at the tip to touch the rifling leade, whereas the pointier FMJ bullet just entered past the leade without contacting it.

So, the short version of all that is, just because a bullet is the same weight and same general bullet shape as a factory round, doesn't mean it actually is the same.

Every bullet is unique unto itself, every chamber/barrel is unique, yadda yadda yadda.

fredj338
10-14-2011, 13:03
Sorry if I missed where someone said this already, but....

So, the short version of all that is, just because a bullet is the same weight and same general bullet shape as a factory round, doesn't mean it actually is the same.

Every bullet is unique unto itself, every chamber/barrel is unique, yadda yadda yadda.

Well someone has been paying attention.:supergrin:

illrooster132
10-14-2011, 13:21
Sorry if I missed where someone said this already, but....

Ogive of the bullet seems to be a bigger deal in 9mm than in other pistol cartridges in how it affects seating depth. (if you don't know, ogive is just the shape of the nose, the "curvature" if you will).

I ordered some round nose 124 grain lead bullets from a manufacturer, looked like standard FMJ round nose bullets, but seated to the same OAL as the factory rounds, the bullets would not drop into my Beretta's chamber. They were quite a ways from dropping all the way in, actually. The bullet nose was hitting the rifling (the leade) before the case head was flush with the back of the barrel.

The reason is that the ogive of the lead bullet was "fatter", not as pointy as the FMJ bullet. It was different enough at the tip to touch the rifling leade, whereas the pointier FMJ bullet just entered past the leade without contacting it.

So, the short version of all that is, just because a bullet is the same weight and same general bullet shape as a factory round, doesn't mean it actually is the same.

Every bullet is unique unto itself, every chamber/barrel is unique, yadda yadda yadda.

Alas! this could be the answer.:wavey::supergrin: