HP38 vs Win231 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MrVvrroomm
10-13-2011, 19:45
I know HP38 and Win231 are currently the same powder. I have experience using both.

My question: how long have they been the same powder?

Reason for question: I came upon a pound of HP38 today that I believe was made prior to the merger/takeover.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/ammo/2011-10-13_17-29-37_620.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/ammo/2011-10-13_17-29-18_272.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/MrVvrroomm/ammo/2011-10-13_17-29-28_672.jpg

I was going to email Hodgdon, but they would rather be called. I will call them in the morning.

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 20:33
They've always been the same powder. Freakshow has posted the specific info to prove this in other threads on the same topic.

fredj338
10-13-2011, 21:25
Well, I will decent. Based on older book data, like the SPeer #11, they are slightly diff. Maybe it's only a lot to lot variation type of diff, but diff still. That particular one is the older variety, I would use older data if pushing the top end. If you are well off that, I wouldn't worry about the small diff.

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 21:38
Well, I will decent. Based on older book data, like the SPeer #11, they are slightly diff. Maybe it's only a lot to lot variation type of diff, but diff still. That particular one is the older variety, I would use older data if pushing the top end. If you are well off that, I wouldn't worry about the small diff.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that they have always been the same powder? Freakshow has gotten confirmation directly from St. Marks that they have always been the same powder. Who would know better than them?

Here's the previous go-around on this:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1367319

It's like saying two different bottles of 231 aren't the "same" powder.

MrVvrroomm
10-13-2011, 21:38
That particular one is the older variety, I would use older data if pushing the top end. If you are well off that, I wouldn't worry about the small diff.No issues with going to the top with this. I'm just using it for a .40 gamer load.

WiskyT
10-13-2011, 21:49
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_50/ai_n6180926/

freakshow10mm
10-13-2011, 22:42
I came upon a pound of HP38 today that I believe was made prior to the merger/takeover.

Hodgdon doesn't own Winchester powder, they have distribution rights to Winchester powder as a brand. Winchester powder is and always has been, St Marks Powder. Hodgdon HP38 and Winchester 231 have always been St Marks #231 powder.

fredj338
10-14-2011, 00:42
Why is it so hard for you to accept that they have always been the same powder? Freakshow has gotten confirmation directly from St. Marks that they have always been the same powder. Who would know better than them?

Here's the previous go-around on this:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1367319

It's like saying two different bottles of 231 aren't the "same" powder.

Well, when pubblished data for the two powders / identical componets yields diff results, then I would say they were diff. If that is as simple as the manuf taking diff lots & marketing them as diff powders, that by definition would make them slightly diff. Enough to matter, probably not, unless you are loading at the top. Much like loading diff lots of powder, w/ some powders that have huge lot to lot variations, you have to reduce the loads & start over, treating it like a diff powder, at least as to how it performs @ the top end.:dunno:

noylj
10-14-2011, 03:03
This is very close to stupid.
You are to always re-evalute your loads when using a new lot. You can compare any two manuals and see different max loads. The old lot of 231/HP38 may be slightly different from your new lot of 231/HP38, but that doesn't stop them both from being 231/HP38.
If you want, then consider each and every lot of 231/HP38 as being "different" and simply accept that that is the way it works.
Now, if the test facilities would look at the average pressure, average peak pressure, average velocity, etc. and the standard deviation, they could compare different powders and lots of powders to determine if one powder was equivalent to another powder or lot of powder at a 99%, 95%, or even a 90% confidence interval and we might see several powders that, while they may not be "the same" in terms of being from the same batch of powder, they are "the same" in terms of performance. I would wager that the old lot of 231/HP38 and the new lot of 231/HP31 would be statistically the "same" at better than the 99% confidence even with a couple of tenths of a grain in max load. Almost all loads probably have a 0.2gn variation is max pressure, particularly in different guns.
I have also heard from people who claim that their guns can tell the difference between HP38 and 231. In all cases, they have not even fired ten (10) groups with each to do any statistical analysis. In most case, they took the results of one (1) target and "assumed" that any further testing would simply duplicate the same results.
I can tell you right now that the group that produced a 0.27" c-to-c group at 25 yards, has also produced a group of up to 2.5" if I fire up to 10 groups of the same powder, primer, bullet.
When I have done this with one lot of HP38 and one lot of 231, guess what? Using a t-test on my groups showed no statistical difference at a 90% confidence limit. Note, that that means that there is still a 10% possibility that those two different lots were actually "different."

rewster
10-14-2011, 05:33
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:yawn:

LoadedTech
10-16-2011, 20:39
HP38 and W231 have different VDM's, (Volume Measure Density) unlike W296 and H110. Just saying.....:whistling:

WiskyT
10-16-2011, 21:11
HP38 and W231 have different VDM's, (Volume Measure Density) unlike W296 and H110. Just saying.....:whistling:

0.0926 vs. 0.0931, they throw the same weights per given cavity with the Lee autodisc.

freakshow10mm
10-16-2011, 21:21
HP38 and W231 have different VDM's, (Volume Measure Density) unlike W296 and H110. Just saying.....:whistling:
I think the company who manufactures them is the ultimate authority. St Marks confirms there is no difference between the powder marketed as HP38 and the powder marketed as W231. It's identical to their SMP #231 powder. Period.

WiskyT
10-16-2011, 21:29
I think the company who manufactures them is the ultimate authority. St Marks confirms there is no difference between the powder marketed as HP38 and the powder marketed as W231. It's identical to their SMP #231 powder. Period.

There really aren't two sides to this one like 9 v 45 or pro and con on the FCD, there is only one powder with two lables.

freakshow10mm
10-17-2011, 09:45
Exactly.

Jim Watson
10-17-2011, 19:07
I have no doubt that Hodgdon is now filling orders for Win 231 and HP38 out of the same truckload from St Marks; whichever they have the most demand for on any given day.

Some older manuals show maximum loads differing by as much as 10% with the same bullet, brass, and barrel.
That is a lot of lot to lot variation, even if it did come off the same production line.

WiskyT
10-17-2011, 19:16
I have no doubt that Hodgdon is now filling orders for Win 231 and HP38 out of the same truckload from St Marks; whichever they have the most demand for on any given day.

Some older manuals show maximum loads differing by as much as 10% with the same bullet, brass, and barrel.
That is a lot of lot to lot variation, even if it did come off the same production line.

It could also be a lot of variation in the testing process. I have my own personal skepticism regarding the "science" of pressure testing. It's supposed to be so scientific, yet even from the same labs, data varies from edition to edition, and by a large amount to.

They tell you what is okay to use, but they don't tell you all the data they generated. That's fine, they can't be expected to market a reloading manual that is the physical size of the health care law. But I wonder how different their averages are for two identicle ten shot strings shot one after the other? If they worked up a given load, and then did it again, would the answer they get be exactly the same?