Interesting Quote from John Lee about the FCD. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Interesting Quote from John Lee about the FCD.


Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2011, 14:12
From: "John Lee" <info@leeprecision.com>
Subject: Re: Factory Crimp Die for lead semi-auto calibers
To: "XXX" <XXX@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:26 AM

Thanks for the suggestion of a Factory Crimp die with an interchangeable sizing ring. I will think about your suggestion but have serious reservations about producing it and calling it a Factory Crimp die. If we make the sizing ring any larger it will not produce ammunition that will work in any firearm.

I guess we could advertise it as "Produces ammunition that may work in some firearms"

Seriously, the sizer ring is .001 to .002 smaller than a SAAMI maximum cartridge. This produces a finished cartridge that will not exceed Factory Maximum, a dimension necessary to fit in any standard chamber gun. Many users can use larger cast bullets that swell the case in excess of factory maximum and will work perfectly in one or more of their guns. That same crowd frequently will use a taper crimp die to assure "reliable feeding". The taper crimp die nicely squeezes the brass in turn reducing the bullet shank diameter. Had they used the correct diameter bullet they would not have needed a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

For any given brass thickness there is a limit on how large your bullet can be and not swell the brass over the SAAMI limit. If you are using selected brass of uniform wall thickness one can successfully use larger cast bullets with out fear of producing ammo that will not chamber properly in any gun. If you are using mixed range brass stick with the bullet diameter that the cartridge was originally designed for and you won't need a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

Again thank you for the suggestion for a "screw adjustable crimping die" basically our Factory crimp die with out the sizing ring, it would be a fraction of the cost of Factory Crimp die without the ground and polished carbide ring. Bounce the idea off your friends on the forums and if there is much interest I will give it serious consideration.


John Lee, President



Someone over at cast bullets is starting a campaign to get Lee to make a FCD with out the carbide ring. At first he wanted a Lead Friendly FCD but it appears John Lee nixed that idea. Anyway. Supposedly the FCD has a special type of design for the crimper. I have read that for years. Anyway, Lee is basically saying what I have said for the last 4 years. FCD is sized .001-.002" smaller then sammi spec. I always thought it was .003" because that is what all mine actually measure at. To be fair it's really hard to measure a I.D. to .001" anyway with regular calipers. He also confirms the "spring back" that I have talked about for years. Basically, Na Na Na Na Na. :tongueout:

For the record once again. Use one if you like. I could care less. To each his own. But I was right. The FCD is sized smaller then Sammi spec. Just like I have said all along.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=130334

WiskyT
10-15-2011, 15:06
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

norton
10-15-2011, 17:25
Easy there. You'll strain your arm patting yourself on the back.

Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2011, 17:47
It's tough being Steve sometimes.

fredj338
10-15-2011, 20:06
Yep, anyone that has ever taekne the time to actually measure before & after w/ the LFCD knows this. Nice of Mr Lee to confirm it. Now if someone could explain what a LFCD w/o the sizer ring is? Woul that not just be a seating die w/ built in crimp ring like all other dies are made?

Uncle Don
10-15-2011, 20:13
The last thing I want to do is start any kind of p**** match, but if I recall, your position was that the fcd sized the bullet down and therefore made it a product you had issue with. I held the position that it worked for me because it didn't size the bullet and simply put a crimp on the case. The post sizing ring per your letter is that it sizes .001 - .002 below MAXIMUM SAAMI. I contend that since my cases were already below that measurement, the ring did not effect it. We agreed to disagree.

I actually do mix brass and even though I don't always use a fcd, I still haven't had an issue, but I size lead bullets so they probably don't cause the case to swell and create an issue.

The letter doesn't surprise me a great deal because it says that the ring defacing bullet will only happen when the bullet is already oversize. If you take away that variable, you shouldn't have an issue. I will admit that for loaders who are not preparing ammo correctly, the fcd "fixes" things so that they will chamber and agree with those that make that contention.

For me, the die is valuable because it allows me to easily adjust bullet depth with the seating die and not touch the fcd and it gives a proper crimp regardless of the small differences in case length.

Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2011, 20:44
My point always was that a perfectly good, in spec round was larger then the carbide ring on the FCD. That is pretty much it. And that is what Lee is saying as well.

Uncle Don
10-15-2011, 21:03
My point always was that a perfectly good, in spec round was larger then the carbide ring on the FCD. That is pretty much it. And that is what Lee is saying as well.

When you say "in spec", you are talking about the Maximum SAAMI, correct? That is how I read the letter. If your round is say .002 under Max - are you saying that per the letter, the die would effect that round as well?

Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2011, 21:41
So using 10mm as a example. Max case O.D. at the end of the case is .423". If your round is .423" at the case mouth and the FCD is .421" (as Lee said) then the round is going to be sized in the FCD(your squeezing a .423" case into a .421" die). It's a sizer. That is what it does. Now the question you are asking is will it actually change the bullet. That is a huge "it depends". I found in 10mm it does a little bit. This is the EXACT scenario we discussed before. Only difference is I said the FCD is actually .420" not .421" as Lee said. That is only a .001" difference from his letter (assuming the .002" rather then the .001"). But we all know .001" in a bullet size can make a HUGE difference in accuracy. Personally, I think FMJ are less likely to be sized. Brass has more spring back then Lead alone. Lead is always .001" larger. In this situation the Lead is likely going to get sized down. I was just loading some 10mm on my LCT. Finished rounds at the case mouth measured no smaller then .421" and many were right at .423". Those are real numbers. All were in spec, all fit the case gauge easily.

Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2011, 21:43
When you say "in spec", you are talking about the Maximum SAAMI, correct? That is how I read the letter. If your round is say .002 under Max - are you saying that per the letter, the die would effect that round as well?

Not if they are both .002" Under SAAMI. Of course not.

Uncle Don
10-16-2011, 07:38
Then we are actually saying the same thing. My contention is that the die carbide ring wont effect the cartridge if it is below the maximum SAAMI spec. If it is Max - then it would. It would also explain why I haven't had an issue due to sized bullets and apparantly, a good sizing die.

Even though I size bullets, I've said before that I tend not to use it for lead bullets simply because they are by nature .001 to .002 larger than a jacketed bullet and if time is an issue, I don't size the bullets. However, if sized only .001 beyond jacketed, they are either not effected, or you would feel a very slight bump from the bullet at the top which I don't belive effects accuracy in short range handgun shooting. (That is also assuming a thicker case)

I'm glad you posted the letter, I think it helped alleviate our misunderstanding on the issue and hopefully, others as well.

Colorado4Wheel
10-16-2011, 08:10
The issue is the in between area of -.002 Under SAAMI SPEC, to right at SAAMI spec. Then if your die is just a smidge smaller (like nearly all of mine it seems). It expands that range a bit. BUT, if your round is .002" (give or take a little) under SAAMI and your die is also .002" (give or take) the FCD won't do much if anything. Metal and lead does spring back a little. So your probably safe.

Glad we cleared the air.

El_Ron1
10-16-2011, 12:12
I wonder if John Lee ever flagellated himself with a LNL?

bush pilot
10-16-2011, 12:20
Nice pic of Joe in the beer fort Mullah. Hasn't it been right at a year since he died?

IndyGunFreak
10-16-2011, 12:44
I wonder if John Lee ever flagellated himself with a LNL?

:rofl:

G36_Me
10-17-2011, 15:01
:popcorn: so... are we for or against? this is a great thread

D. Manley
10-18-2011, 21:20
Not if they are both .002" Under SAAMI. Of course not.

That .001 to .002 probably tightens up over time before JL replaces those reamers though. :supergrin:

Uncle Don
10-19-2011, 05:05
That .001 to .002 probably tightens up over time before JL replaces those reamers though. :supergrin:

I'm not a machinist, but it does't seem that a reamer would would work on carbide - they probably form those over a mandrel of some sort. I could be wrong as I certainly have before but it seems that only diamond would effect something as hard as carbide.

Jim Watson
10-19-2011, 05:58
When the CFC die came out, they said it made use of the closet full of carbide rings they had accumulated that came out too large for a resizing die.

If you use same lot number brass of medium or thin wall thickness and jacketed or hand cast and sized bullets, you don't need a CFC die. But if you are loading plinking ammo with mixed brass and cheap bulk bullets, then one will come in handy. And I doubt many of us use that type ammo for 50 yard slow fire. So it becomes a question of function more than accuracy.

Colorado4Wheel
10-19-2011, 07:43
When the CFC die came out, they said it made use of the closet full of carbide rings they had accumulated that came out too large for a resizing die.


A Lee sizing die is about .010" SMALLER then saami spec.
All the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die I have measured are about .003" SMALLER then saami spec.
Lee says his FCD is .002-.001" smaller then saami spec

So I would guess that is a rumor.

dkf
10-19-2011, 10:27
I'm not a machinist, but it does't seem that a reamer would would work on carbide - they probably form those over a mandrel of some sort. I could be wrong as I certainly have before but it seems that only diamond would effect something as hard as carbide.

Nope your not going to ream carbide which has a hardness over 80Rc. Carbide is usually made by pressing the carbide power mix (with a binder) into a mold under high pressure. Then the "Green" carbide part is put into an over for sintering. The sintering binds everything together. Then the finished part is ground to size. You can cut carbide with ceramics, a green silicon carbide grinding wheel with a loose bond is used to grind carbide in machine shop settings. Problem is those wheels do not hold their form well or last very long between dressings, thus diamond wheels are best.

Uncle Don
10-19-2011, 16:26
Nope your not going to ream carbide which has a hardness over 80Rc. Carbide is usually made by pressing the carbide power mix (with a binder) into a mold under high pressure. Then the "Green" carbide part is put into an over for sintering. The sintering binds everything together. Then the finished part is ground to size. You can cut carbide with ceramics, a green silicon carbide grinding wheel with a loose bond is used to grind carbide in machine shop settings. Problem is those wheels do not hold their form well or last very long between dressings, thus diamond wheels are best.

Wow - thanks for the lesson, it's very informative.

creophus
10-21-2011, 08:07
We'll never doubt you again C4W.

Colorado4Wheel
10-21-2011, 08:21
Promises, Promises.

noylj
10-21-2011, 14:25
Some people can read a statement and find things that aren't in it.
I would not mind a FCD w/o the carbide ring as it seems to crimp better than the taper crimp dies i have.
Also, I have not had any bullet swaging issues except for my 0.359" bullets for a 0.3585" 9x19 barrel. What I could probably use is a .38 S&W FCD, if they were made.

Colorado4Wheel
10-21-2011, 16:11
I would use a FCD if it didn't have the carbide ring. I love the dial adjusters on the Lee Dies.