damn barrel lead [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Fwdftw
10-16-2011, 13:52
Where can I buy choreboy?

JLM63
10-16-2011, 14:08
I get them at Ace Hardware and also have seen them at Wal-Mart.

Fwdftw
10-16-2011, 17:01
10-4 thanks just wanted to make sure they had em before I make the drive

Zombie Steve
10-16-2011, 17:08
Why are you getting leading?

unclebob
10-16-2011, 17:26
Where you do your grocery shopping should have them also. Just make sure you get the copper ones.

Three-Five-Seven
10-16-2011, 17:59
I have found copper wool regularly at ACE hardware.

fredj338
10-16-2011, 18:52
Most grocery stores carry it.

Gunnut 45/454
10-16-2011, 20:31
Better fix is to stop the leading? Size your bullets properly -usually .002" over bore, use lube and shoot them at the apropriete velocity for there hardness! For most pistols if you keep them under 1000 fps your golden. Though properly sized and lubed and harden I could run my cast bullets as fast as I want without any leading at all! Currently running '06 cast bullets at 2300-2400 fps! And 30-30 bullets at 1998 fps! etc.:supergrin:

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 09:05
i dont cast them unfortunatly these are store bought..


.452
Lubed
5.5gr win231
1.255 OAL

No clue why theyre leading up in the throat i shoot ONLY these no plated or jacketed after wards.. ill be cleaning my gun in a little bit ill get pictured of said projectile and my barrel

fredj338
10-17-2011, 09:11
i dont cast them unfortunatly these are store bought..


.452
Lubed
5.5gr win231
1.255 OAL

No clue why theyre leading up in the throat i shoot ONLY these no plated or jacketed after wards.. ill be cleaning my gun in a little bit ill get pictured of said projectile and my barrel

Leading early in the throat is often too small a bullet or some times the bullet can actually be too hard for the pressures used & you are getting gas blow by before the bullet/lube seals the bore. You could try getting some Lee Alox & mixing a bit of mineral spirits w/ it & then coating the manuf bullets in them, dry & load. SOme say it helps. Many of the hard wax lubes commercial guys use don't do well in low pressure rounds.
It is an advantage casting your own, you can match the alloy, size & lube to your needs. The 45acp can almost run on a dead soft lead bullet & not lead, if it is properly sized & a decent lube.

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 09:14
yea i think im done with lead untill i can cast my own :/

Zombie Steve
10-17-2011, 09:15
Never considered too hard of a bullet. I shoot .45's pretty soft.

Might not be obturating fast enough. :dunno:

fredj338
10-17-2011, 09:16
yea i think im done with lead untill i can cast my own :/

Well, try a diff brand of bullet. I would even give the swaged Hornady or Speer a try, but they are kind of pricey. Some manuf offer diff alloys, I would lean to softer for the 45acp, like 12BHN.

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 09:21
is there a way i can test the hardness?

Zombie Steve
10-17-2011, 09:23
The school of Jack says just use your thumbnail. That's all I've ever done, but I have a bunch of different types of lead to give me something to compare it to. There are definitely hardness testers out there.

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 09:25
yea i mean i had a VERRYYYYYY small amount come off my thumbnail i mean a little
made almost no visible mark on the proejctile.. ill brb gonna get a shot of my barrel and the bullet

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 09:37
Said projectiles
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Rizey/IMAG0340.jpg

said barrel after about 5 passes with brush and 5 patches

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Rizey/DSC00515.jpg

fredj338
10-17-2011, 13:40
With out a BHN tester, pretty diff to get any good idea. I am betting hardcast, 18BHN or so. The bevelk base doesn't help either. I have BB bullets, but they can be early bbl leaders too. The place you bought them from should have something on their site telling you what the BHN is. Did you mic them, make sure they are 0.452" & not 0.451"? There are companies making both sizes for smoe reason. Most get better results w/ bullets slightly larger than slightly smaller. You pistols bbl could have an over size throat too, not uncommon. Another reason to use a softer bullet. I know it sounds counterintuative, but you want the bullet to start sealing the bore as soon as it hits rifling. A hard bullet won't do that until well into the bore.
You could check the bbl by driving an oversized bullet into the throat & then another all the way thru the bbl. Measure them, see if the throat is larger than groove dia. Then go 0.001" larger than groove dia. If the throat is larger, match the throat dia. Again, tough to do with commercial cast as most just don't offer custom sizing. I think if you just find a commercial caster making softer bullets, like Missouri Bullets, get them 0.452" & you'll probably see better results. Then sopme bbls are just rough & never shoot a lead bullet w/o leading.

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 15:19
Thanks Fred , I'm sure its probably the bullets not the barrel I've researched mp barrels they say no problem leading

WiskyT
10-17-2011, 15:29
yea i think im done with lead untill i can cast my own :/

Expensive, undersized, hard bullets suck. For the price of one bullet order, you can get a Lee two cavity and a Lee pot and make your own.

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 15:35
i really have no place to do it wisky.. no storage room... no garage.. i do have a extra bedroom.. but no way am i doing that stuff over brand new carpet

WiskyT
10-17-2011, 15:43
i really have no place to do it wisky.. no storage room... no garage.. i do have a extra bedroom.. but no way am i doing that stuff over brand new carpet

It's only brand new once. You could take up the carpet to protect it and put it back when you move out. I used to cast on my pickup truck's tailgate. Jack casts on his kitchen counter:supergrin:

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 15:51
Dunno if I could cast outta a 2011 Altima lol

Zombie Steve
10-17-2011, 15:53
There's always other hobbies you could try.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WvwxynrIk_Q/TaPCa4-OsMI/AAAAAAAABBE/uu_D3r4FQSI/s1600/macrame_practical.jpg

WiskyT
10-17-2011, 15:55
Dunno if I could cast outta a 2011 Altima lol

No problem if it's a rental.

atakawow
10-17-2011, 15:58
Said projectiles
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Rizey/IMAG0340.jpg


Where did you get them bullets from?

G26man
10-17-2011, 16:00
So now with tire places using steel (or whatever they are) tire weights where are you guys getting your lead? Do you still save a lot of money if you have to buy it over cast bullets?

atakawow
10-17-2011, 16:04
So now with tire places using steel (or whatever they are) tire weights where are you guys getting your lead? Do you still save a lot of money if you have to buy it over cast bullets?

Check online forums or your local Craigslist for lead prices. Locate a price and do the math. If your lead pricing is less than your current bullet pricing, then "saving" is still in place. Only you can decide if that saving is worth it.

Fwdftw
10-17-2011, 16:22
Where did you get them bullets from?
Comes from a LGS, Theres a Company here locally Tennessee reloads.. they also make cast projectiles

Zombie Steve
10-17-2011, 16:53
Check online forums or your local Craigslist for lead prices. Locate a price and do the math. If your lead pricing is less than your current bullet pricing, then "saving" is still in place. Only you can decide if that saving is worth it.

Haven't paid for lead yet...

Still wheel weights out there if you're willing to scrounge. I still get a about 5 pounds at the local range every time I go shoot (assuming nobody else is there). I just walk around and pick lead up off the ground. I don't even have to dig for it. Takes about 10 minutes.

atakawow
10-17-2011, 17:11
Comes from a LGS, Theres a Company here locally Tennessee reloads.. they also make cast projectiles

Judging by the picture of your bore, the culprit here, very much likely, is undersized bullets. What is the diameter of those bullets? Can you measure them?

I wouldn't give up lead bullets just yet as the saving is quite substantial. Have you tried one of the online vendors?

WiskyT
10-17-2011, 17:12
So now with tire places using steel (or whatever they are) tire weights where are you guys getting your lead? Do you still save a lot of money if you have to buy it over cast bullets?

Idoor range backstop. No digging.

atakawow
10-17-2011, 17:13
Haven't paid for lead yet...

Still wheel weights out there if you're willing to scrounge. I still get a about 5 pounds at the local range every time I go shoot (assuming nobody else is there). I just walk around and pick lead up off the ground. I don't even have to dig for it. Takes about 10 minutes.

Y'all have it good. The lead plague hit us up here just recently. Luckily, I can still purchase lead online for about $1/lb shipped. The saving is still quite substantial for me compared to buying bullets online.

fredj338
10-17-2011, 17:50
So now with tire places using steel (or whatever they are) tire weights where are you guys getting your lead? Do you still save a lot of money if you have to buy it over cast bullets?
My Frediction is that lead ww are going to be gone in about 3yrs. That is about how long a set of tires lasts the avg driver. With more & more states banning lead, the ww manuf are switching to zinc or steel. So get what you can now where you can, even if you pay for it, just don't over pay. My break point is $1.50/#, if I had to pay that for plinking bullet alloy, I would rather buy from a good commercial outfit. Berm mining is a great source if your local place allows it. I can pull 50# out of my club range in about 15min of screening. That is about 1700, 200gr 45s.:supergrin:
Other sources for lead for now; lead roof flashing form old houses, lead plumbing from same, stained glass window came, dentil x-ray lead, hospital x-ray lead, boat keels, fishing wts & dive anchors & lead ballast from equip like fork lifts. All is useable in some form but may take a bit of work to get it. I asked my dentist last visit if he ever threw out his old lead sheet form the X-ray machine (most use digital now), so I left w/ about 50# of lead foils & some lead sheeting. Always ask, ya never know.

Tombo 65
10-17-2011, 18:27
I'm shooting .452 diam 21 bh lswc bullets thru both a G37 and a G21, and I have absolutely no leading after 50 to 100 rounds. I'm shooting 255gr bullets the most, and with that weight I can't push them very fast, say 800fps tops, but they are either obturating fine dispite the hardness and low velocity, or fit the barrel very well.

I've tried some .452 diam 18 bh truncated cone bullets (225gr) and they work almost as well. I can push them faster, and there is leading to speak of after a similar quantity of rounds. I know that's not a lot of shooting, but I'm a bit more methodical at shooting than I used to be. No more binge shooting, it costs too much.

Give some Double Tap .452 diam 255gr bullets a try before you give up. I'm using 5.0 gr of Unique behind them in the 45acp, and 3.6 gr of Titegroup with the 45gap. Both guns eat them up, and my groups are much tighter with the heavier bullets, for some reason. I prefer longer bearing surfaces on my bullets, and the shorter, lighter bullets that you displayed seem harder to reload for me.

Good luck. Don't give up, and try some 21 bh .452 diam. bullets before you make up your mind.

Tombo 65

dla
10-18-2011, 09:43
A couple thoughts:

Most leading is cosmetic. Yours looks that way to me. I.e. it isn't going to blow up and the choreboy will take care of it.
You can switch powders and or loads for much cheaper than screwing around with casting. Usually, warming the load up with a slower powder gets rid of that leading
Never cast in a dwelling. Garage with the door open is OK, but never inside the house for a number of really basic reasons.

GioaJack
10-18-2011, 09:57
A couple thoughts:

Most leading is cosmetic. Yours looks that way to me. I.e. it isn't going to blow up and the choreboy will take care of it.
You can switch powders and or loads for much cheaper than screwing around with casting. Usually, warming the load up with a slower powder gets rid of that leading
Never cast in a dwelling. Garage with the door open is OK, but never inside the house for a number of really basic reasons.



Can you explain your reasonings for us please on this point.


Jack

G26man
10-18-2011, 09:59
My Frediction is that lead ww are going to be gone in about 3yrs. That is about how long a set of tires lasts the avg driver. With more & more states banning lead, the ww manuf are switching to zinc or steel. So get what you can now where you can, even if you pay for it, just don't over pay. My break point is $1.50/#, if I had to pay that for plinking bullet alloy, I would rather buy from a good commercial outfit. Berm mining is a great source if your local place allows it. I can pull 50# out of my club range in about 15min of screening. That is about 1700, 200gr 45s.:supergrin:
Other sources for lead for now; lead roof flashing form old houses, lead plumbing from same, stained glass window came, dentil x-ray lead, hospital x-ray lead, boat keels, fishing wts & dive anchors & lead ballast from equip like fork lifts. All is useable in some form but may take a bit of work to get it. I asked my dentist last visit if he ever threw out his old lead sheet form the X-ray machine (most use digital now), so I left w/ about 50# of lead foils & some lead sheeting. Always ask, ya never know.

Very informative reply, thanks! :thumbsup: And thanks to everyone else too.

Fwdftw
10-18-2011, 13:08
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Can you explain your reasonings for us please on this point.


Jack

Yea....is win231 not a good choice ? From reading its a top choice for 45acp

fredj338
10-18-2011, 13:14
Yea....is win231 not a good choice ? From reading its a top choice for 45acp

W231 usually works fine, but it is smokey w/ lead bullets. Really, give WST a try & get a softer bullet if you aren't going to slug & match your bbl. Did you mic the bullets BTW, they could be 0.451" instead.:dunno:
As to casting indoors, I wouldn't have an issue of ventilation is good. the biggest problems would be the smoke form fluxing & the dreaded tinsel fairy.:shocked: I really don't want hot lead splashed over carpet & painted walls. now if your indoor room is dedicated to casting/reloading, tile floor w/ cheap indoor/outdoor carpet, open the window & put an exhaust fan over the pot.:supergrin:

tjpet
10-18-2011, 14:22
If the bullets shoot accurately and the pics of your barrel are the standard amount of leading you're getting I'd just keep shooting them and use Choreboy.

dla
10-18-2011, 14:56
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Can you explain your reasonings for us please on this point.


Jack

The 1st reason is basic "hot metal safety" IF you boo-boo, you will have floor/wall/ceiling damage. The concrete floor of most garages isn't as sacred to most wives. The 2nd reason is inhalation safety - again IF you boo-boo and run it too hot you'll push lead-laden vapor to everyone in the house - especially not cool if you have kiddos.

dla
10-18-2011, 15:09
Yea....is win231 not a good choice ? From reading its a top choice for 45acp

W231 is faster than AA#5. Smaller charge weight variations result in larger pressure changes with faster powders. Although I would imagine that you can find a "sweet spot" with W231 by experimenting, my experience is that it is easier with a slower powder.

I don't get too excited about leading unless it is causing chambering issues or the bullets are keyholing. Most barrels, (even little short pistol barrels), will season and not accumulate lead past a certain point.

My successes in eliminating leading in 45acp have been with slower powders pushing bullets towards the top-end of the load range. I used to burn a lot of AA#5 successfully before the Obama-scare - now I've got a lot of Silhouette to work through.

So to summarize - I'm not dissing W231, but since you're not liking your leading I'm offering a suggestion to move to a slower powder run hard.

Have fun!

Fwdftw
10-18-2011, 15:49
I have some unique I can play around with ? , stoped Jain it bc it wasn't dropping as accurate as the win231 but I'm almost outta powder

GioaJack
10-18-2011, 16:04
The 1st reason is basic "hot metal safety" IF you boo-boo, you will have floor/wall/ceiling damage. The concrete floor of most garages isn't as sacred to most wives. The 2nd reason is inhalation safety - again IF you boo-boo and run it too hot you'll push lead-laden vapor to everyone in the house - especially not cool if you have kiddos.


You bring up two good points that are certainly worth exploring a little more in depth.

Unless you are cursed to a lifetime of clumsiness like Zombie Steve casting with molten lead doesn't have to be any more dangerous than other fairly common activity. It is really no more than exercising common sense.

Can you tip over a furnace full of lead? Sure you can, but you have to work at it. Combine the weight of the furnace with 20 or 22 pounds of lead and you have a more than reasonably stable working environment. Put two or three screws through the base plate of the furnace into the bench top and you can't knock it over short of hitting it with a sledge hammer. (A tool not commonly used in loading... at least not to my knowledge.)

Compare your casting activity to say your wife frying chicken on the stove top. A child walks by, hits the handle of the pan with their shoulder, or the cat jumps on the stove trying to escape the toddler sitting on the kitchen floor pulling its tail. I'm sure your imagination can fill in the rest.

How about someone who decides to refuel their lawn mower while it's still running, or the person that stores a five gallon jerry can of gas in their garage?

In 48 years of casting indoors I have never tipped over a furnace, burnt a hole in a carpet, (everyone of my loading rooms have been carpeted... unfortunately I can't say as much for my cigarettes.), ever had lead splatter high enough to even come close to a ceiling and in the unusual circumstance that lead has splattered onto the bench it cools so quickly that it is simply flicked away without sticking to anything.

Casting indoors or outdoors is no different than any other potentially dangerous activity in life... you don't put your common sense in your back pocket when you engage in it. Marriage is the only exception to this rule that I can think of.

As to inhaling lead vapors, this is one of the most often misunderstood aspects of casting.

Lead melts, (flows) at approximately 631 degrees, (F), and most casting is done between 700 and 750 degrees, (F). There are no vapors in technical terms to inhale.

At the other end of the spectrum lead vaporizes, (boils) at a little over 3100 degrees, (F). I'm not aware of any commercially produced bullet casting furnace that even approaches those temperature capabilities... I don't even know of a furnace that exceeds 800 to 850 degrees. There is simply no reason to have temperatures exceed that to accomplish what we want to do.

If one is worried about lead poisoning in a child their concerns would be better directed at ensuring the child doesn't chew on a toy produced in China or actually suck on cast bullets pretending they are Lifesavers.

Done correctly casting is a safe, relaxing and enjoyable hobby be it done indoors or outdoors.


Jack

dla
10-18-2011, 16:12
As to inhaling lead vapors, this is one of the most often misunderstood aspects of casting.

Lead melts, (flows) at approximately 631 degrees, (F), and most casting is done between 700 and 750 degrees, (F). There are no vapors in technical terms to inhale.

At the other end of the spectrum lead vaporizes, (boils) at a little over 3100 degrees, (F).
Jack

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just as water "steams" long before it boils, so lead "vaporizes" long before it boils.

dbarry
10-18-2011, 16:28
I looked for copper chore boy in vain... One day, stopped at local gas station for a six pack and the mrs saw them in on the shelf at the gas station (little convenience store too). Eureka!

GioaJack
10-18-2011, 16:50
Correct me if I'm wrong, but just as water "steams" long before it boils, so lead "vaporizes" long before it boils.


Not according to science and those who write about it. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth we used to have to go to the library to look stuff like this up... I do believe those mostly empty building have been replaced with Google.


Jack

unclebob
10-18-2011, 17:49
Back in the days when I probably knew more about nuclear fusion that I knew about bullet casting. One day I was melting lead in my Lyman bottom poor furnace and for some reason I reached over the pot and my face was right above the pot. Inhaled once and I had to unplug the pot and had to take a nap. Must say I got instantly sick.
One time I was melting lead on the kitchen table. Forgot and sneezed. Lead went to the ceiling and it stuck.

Zombie Steve
10-18-2011, 18:19
I sneezed Copenhagen all over my steering wheel a couple times.

Fwdftw
10-18-2011, 19:31
I sneezed Copenhagen all over my steering wheel a couple times.


Mmmm dip spit lol

atakawow
10-18-2011, 21:07
I eat Colonel Sander's finger lickin' good chicken strips while cooling alox.

dla
10-19-2011, 09:39
Not according to science and those who write about it.


Jack

So you are saying that a pot of molten lead releases no vapors until it reaches 3100*F? Hmmmmm, what science were you studying? Did it end with the word "fiction"?

fredj338
10-19-2011, 13:22
So you are saying that a pot of molten lead releases no vapors until it reaches 3100*F? Hmmmmm, what science were you studying? Did it end with the word "fiction"?

No, what he is saying is that at casting temps, there is no lead vapor released. So it's not going to harm you casting.:dunno:

Fwdftw
11-07-2011, 16:17
Man o man , choreboy is the bomb diggity !

WiskyT
11-07-2011, 16:21
Man o man , choreboy is the bomb diggity !

Did any crack whores push up against you in line at walmart?

Fwdftw
11-07-2011, 16:24
Did any crack whores push up against you in line at walmart?

No crackwhores were at ace hardware , unfortuantly wally world , nor k roger had any ?