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ghstface38
10-22-2011, 11:40
The municipality I work for is attempting to meet all the requirements to receive the Baldridge Award. I don't know much other than it's a management style considered to be the best currently utilized. That being said our city administrator is attempting to implement some new policies into the PD and city.

His most recent idea was a performance based bonus check of $500.00. The chosen few were selected based on their IEDP's and evaluations. These 2 documents are filled out by your immediate supervisor and put in your file. As far as we know these documents were pulled and if you rated very-good or superior your name was placed into a dossier and from that file certain people were selected to receive a $500.00 bonus check.

This has done nothing more than cause a rift in our department. Of course we had people to receive it that we feel did not deserve it as well as people we feel deserve it who did not. A real morale killer. We also feel that because the same IEDP's and evaluations that are used city-wide that are used for LEO's that we did not get a fair shot because police work isn't really something that can be compared to parks and rec, sanitation, etc...

I did not receive one and it really killed my pro-activity for a day or so. It took me awhile to decide that I was not going to let a decision effect who I am as a LEO and that it would not effect my work ethic. Newly married with a baby on the way that $500.00 sure would have helped though.

That's all, I just felt like typing it out somewhere. If you read this far I appreciate you taking the time.

CAcop
10-22-2011, 11:58
So much potential for abuse. I can see very bad things happening.

Naelbis
10-22-2011, 12:40
Ranks right up there with non-competative promotions as moral killers...it is just a bad management practice. I would imagine that it will become just another way to reward cronyism.

ghstface38
10-22-2011, 12:47
I'd like to add that not everyone who ranked highly was chosen. I received the life saving award as well as several commendations and I apparently did not do well enough to get a bonus.


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lwt210
10-22-2011, 12:56
No way that would work here. Too much abuse.

Rumor has it there used to be "burglar days" here before I started. If you caught a burglar, robbery suspect, murder suspect (fresh stuff or in progress only), your sergeant would give you a day off with pay. Apparently, it was kept on the shift level and wasn't an official kind of thing.

That kind of stuff was a big morale boost and was a real good motivator to get out there and catch the felons.

blueiron
10-22-2011, 13:42
A number of 'real' Sergeants got together and used their city credit cards to buy soft drinks, snacks, or up to lunch once a week for the most criminal/traffic calls worked, most DUI arrests, most expired plates, highest class felony arrest, most bizarre call, etc. There was a little ceremony during briefing for the winners.

It worked well until the city pencil pushers began questioning the expenditures of up to about $15 a week per supervisor. Morale went back down after the unofficial program was ordered stopped. No one was ever able to stop the catered staff meeting lunches, but the they were scaled down after the citizens found out what happened from some 'little birds' telling them.

The chief got ticked off and forbade any supervisor from buying lunch or drinks for any police employee during an extended critical incident. Where we once got sports drinks during the Arizona summers while working a barricade situation or a multi-fatality traffic incident, we got nothing. Little wonder when he was fired, not one patrol guy would shake his hand on the way out - he was indignant about it too.

CW Mock
10-22-2011, 14:52
"Pay for Performance" is the name of the biggest incidents of theft from state employees - Troopers at least ever perpetrated on us. We used to get step raises until PFP came along ... Then they decided not to fund it. Convenient ... a handy way to make sure there have been no raises in years, OR any pay for performance. Cheap. Cheap. Cheap.

Fight going to it. You'll be better off with a uniform pay scale, and it eliminates the drama you already had.

Knute
10-22-2011, 15:49
We had pay for performance instituted at our agency as well. You can get an extra $500 if you get rated "that high." Of course, this has be approved by our City Manager so even that is total crap. However, even the experts in management say this is NOT the correct method of evaluation for our type of job. This performance management at best destroys teamwork and there is no clear-cut method of evaluating "what makes the best officer." Is it the number of tickets issued, reports taken, or arrests made? How can you adequately compare day shift to night shift? How do you evaluate someone who is proactively workint their beat and because of their efforts fewer crimes occur? This is generally passed off as a decline in stats and therefore must be some "other" reason for it. It's total crap.

dorkweed
10-22-2011, 17:05
And you LEO types always profess that there's no "quota system"!!!!!!:upeyes::upeyes: What are us "subjects" to think now??!!!:dunno:

m2hmghb
10-22-2011, 17:13
And you LEO types always profess that there's no "quota system"!!!!!!:upeyes::upeyes: What are us "subjects" to think now??!!!:dunno:

Why don't you take your attitude elsewhere. Giving an appreciation for good work is the same in police work as it is in any other job field, if you can't understand that I would suggest you go elsewhere.

steveksux
10-22-2011, 17:16
I call BS.

You mean to tell me that management plays favorites with who gets the bonus checks? I have a real hard time believing that...

Randy

dorkweed
10-22-2011, 17:58
Why don't you take your attitude elsewhere. Giving an appreciation for good work is the same in police work as it is in any other job field, if you can't understand that I would suggest you go elsewhere.



I expected this type of response..........although I would've expected more responses.

It's real easy for municipalities to, "off the record", tell coppers to write more tickets to ease the budget shortfalls most are seeing now...............but what is that doing in essence????? I'll answer that for you............rather than have regular patrol cops "CONCENTRATE" on REAL crime they look for easy avenues of "REVENUE ENHANCEMENT" via the undocumented, never-existent quota!!!!!!

OK, so it's not a quota..............but if any of y'all say that you're not "highly motivated" or "highly encouraged" to write as many tickets as possible, I'll call BS right here and now. How does that "fight crime"????


Granted, many criminals are idiots and violate the "rules of the road" regularly..........but to "tax the many, to benefit the few" is not the way to go about things IMHO!!!!

fran m
10-22-2011, 18:09
My dept, (well the commissioners) are talking about taking middle mangagement longevity pay away to save money. This is both for police and other depts (trash, highway, etc) It is thousands of dollars per man and this town is not hurting. Way to back up your managers.

A vocal few commissioners back merit pay for officers. Like already posted in this thread, it is not easy to gauge.

The Sergeants admit the the employee development evaluations are a joke.

And the same commissioners say our heath insurance, vacation time and retirement benefits are too generous and need to be drastically scaled back. They must forget that they negotiated these items and signed off on them.

dorkweed
10-22-2011, 18:36
My dept, (well the commissioners) are talking about taking middle mangagement longevity pay away to save money. This is both for police and other depts (trash, highway, etc) It is thousands of dollars per man and this town is not hurting. Way to back up your managers.

A vocal few commissioners back merit pay for officers. Like already posted in this thread, it is not easy to gauge.

The Sergeants admit the the employee development evaluations are a joke.

And the same commissioners say our heath insurance, vacation time and retirement benefits are too generous and need to be drastically scaled back. They must forget that they negotiated these items and signed off on them.



So, in essence, what you're saying is that they're getting rid of the "no value added management" types!!! That's a good thing IMHO as far a taxing the "working class" goes!!!!

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 18:52
And you LEO types always profess that there's no "quota system"!!!!!!:upeyes::upeyes: What are us "subjects" to think now??!!!:dunno:

Let me get this straight: You have a problem with coppers being rewarded for answering the most calls, catching the most bad guys, working the most wrecks, getting the most drunks off the road, etc? If you are ever the victim of a serious crime, my guess is that you will scream bloody murder that if the coppers were doing their job, poor widdle you would not have been a victim.

At least your alias fits you.

dorkweed
10-22-2011, 18:58
Let me get this straight: You have a problem with coppers being rewarded for answering the most calls, catching the most bad guys, working the most wrecks, getting the most drunks off the road, etc? If you are ever the victim of a serious crime, my guess is that you will scream bloody murder that if the coppers were doing their job, poor widdle you would not have been a victim.

At least your alias fits you.




No. That's not what I said at all!!!! :dunno::faint:








Typical response here!!:yawn:

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:01
No. That's not what I said at all!!!! :dunno::faint:








Typical response here!!:yawn:

Typical troll.

razdog76
10-22-2011, 19:03
I expected this type of response..........although I would've expected more responses.

I doubt it, because you have been blocked by so many here.

It's real easy for municipalities to, "off the record", tell coppers to write more tickets to ease the budget shortfalls most are seeing now...............but what is that doing in essence????? I'll answer that for you............rather than have regular patrol cops "CONCENTRATE" on REAL crime they look for easy avenues of "REVENUE ENHANCEMENT" via the undocumented, never-existent quota!!!!!!

OK, so it's not a quota..............but if any of y'all say that you're not "highly motivated" or "highly encouraged" to write as many tickets as possible, I'll call BS right here and now. How does that "fight crime"????

How do you prevent scofflaws from recklessly speeding by your house, ensure motorists have insurance, are sober...

The answer to all is traffic enforcement. As far as solving a budget shortfall, increasing the number of cites written won't have a significant impact. It will probably shock you to find out that municipalities only get a tiny part of the fine, at least in Ohio. Most of it goes to running the Court and Clerk's office, and then several other state funds such as the victim's of violent crime fund. The final $20 to $30 goes to the municipalities general fund.

Since budgets have to be created before the fiscal period, revenue from citations cannot be counted on.

So, in dorkweed world, how does a dorkweed measure oficer performance? I counter your cry of BS with my agency wouldn't care if I made a single stop per year.

I however, make many. Unless the violator doesn't have proof of insurance, is DUS, drunk, has a warrant, or did something exceptionally stupid, they will probably be let go with a warning. If nothing else then to take up the time between taking calls for service, doing follow up. I figure it is part of my work ethic in providing an honest day of work to my employer.

Granted, many criminals are idiots and violate the "rules of the road" regularly..........but to "tax the many, to benefit the few" is not the way to go about things IMHO!!!!

This statement doesn't make any sense whatsoever since the police agency doesn't get any revenue from a citation.:dunno:

razdog76
10-22-2011, 19:11
ghstface38,

I think there is way to much potential for abuse. Unless every qualified person can be involved, then it won't work, period.

Many agencies have an officer of the month reward system. My agency tried this last year, but only made it about ten months. This is because it was essentially turned into the snitch of the month, with little to do with any measurable performance.

Unless these things can be hammered out, I don't see it being beneficial to anyone.

Cochese
10-22-2011, 19:11
And you LEO types always profess that there's no "quota system"!!!!!!:upeyes::upeyes: What are us "subjects" to think now??!!!:dunno:

We are to think you should go fornicate yourself.

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:11
Why waste your breath, Raz?

Cochese
10-22-2011, 19:12
I expected this type of response..........although I would've expected more responses.

It's real easy for municipalities to, "off the record", tell coppers to write more tickets to ease the budget shortfalls most are seeing now...............but what is that doing in essence????? I'll answer that for you............rather than have regular patrol cops "CONCENTRATE" on REAL crime they look for easy avenues of "REVENUE ENHANCEMENT" via the undocumented, never-existent quota!!!!!!

OK, so it's not a quota..............but if any of y'all say that you're not "highly motivated" or "highly encouraged" to write as many tickets as possible, I'll call BS right here and now. How does that "fight crime"????


Granted, many criminals are idiots and violate the "rules of the road" regularly..........but to "tax the many, to benefit the few" is not the way to go about things IMHO!!!!


We don't care what you think.

You are a tool.

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:13
We have guns. We are right.

Pound sand and fornicate yourself.


Edit:

Uh, wait... That wasn't rude and disrespectful, was it?

Didn't think so. Thanks.

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:17
Back to the employee of the month topic, we have the same program on a quarterly and yearly basis. I have made it clearly known that if such an award is ever offered to me, I will flatly refuse, for the reasons cited above. I didn't even accept my five-year service award. Didn't accept it when they tried again this year.



Outdoor yada yada. The thing the thing.

Hack
10-22-2011, 19:17
Ignore is such a nice little function. dorkweed has been added. I have to admit I got tired of hearing his junk.

fran m
10-22-2011, 19:19
No Dorkweed, I didn't say that at all. I said Twp Management is trying to save money by taking longevity pay from their middle management. They are not chasing anyone out. Longevity pay has been around in my dept during my tenure there. Sgts on down get it. Where would the incentive be to better yourself and get promoted?

Hack
10-22-2011, 19:19
We have things like quality step increase, special act award, time off award, and sometimes it is a nice thing. There is even an award for money saving ideas.

razdog76
10-22-2011, 19:21
Why waste your breath, Raz?

It entertains me because he never even tries to counter anything I write in response, and there are many people that read these threads that have no idea how the whole ticket thing works. For them, I try explain it.

Besides, I am going for my 9th dan in verbal judo...
I doubt it, because you have been blocked by so many here.

So, in dorkweed world, how does a dorkweed measure oficer performance?

Trigger Finger
10-22-2011, 19:23
I think compensation for outstanding work should come in the form of commendations and for truly above and beyond perhaps a department medal, my department had a number of medals from individual performance to unit medals and citations. This can help on promotions and applying for a coveted position.

The only monetary reward you should receive is perhaps a shooting bonus. It's not 500 dollars but for a distinguished expert over a year it might be close to that. But everyone qualifies who shoots good enough in the bonus shoot. Whenever you give dollar rewards where someone is Picked or Selected you will have problems. Favoritism and the appearance of preferential treatment on the part of the troops can do much more harm that monetary bonesis.

The supervisors in my unit would pitch in and take everyone out for several rounds of drinks. This came out of our own pocket and we only had 35 Detectives in my unit! Luckily no one crashed there take home vehicle on the way home. :supergrin:

That is what we get paid for and officers should not need further incentives.

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:27
Quote from Trigger: "That is what we get paid for and officers should not need further incentives."

There it is. :thumbsup:

fran m
10-22-2011, 19:27
Our commissioners want to do away with step increases. I guess they think experienced veterans are worth the same as a fresh recruit. Crazy.

Five more years.

dorkweed
10-22-2011, 19:29
And y'all wonder why "We The People".......and myself........have contempt for most of you!!!!!! You look at us as "subjects/suspects/perpetrators and not "citizens".


For example..............look back a few threads............the one entitled "Burger For a Cop". If'n y'all are that paranoid about "We The People" that work in the food industry, it's truly no wonder that we do not have the same attitude toward y'all!!!!:upeyes:

And to those that insist on belittling my name............my name is Officer Rivieri...........Dude:tongueout::tongueout:!!!!!

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:34
No, dickweed, it's not everyone that is seen in that light. Just tools like you. And tools like you in fast food joints with attitudes like yours. Tools like you who are doing their best to erode our society in to one big orgy of lawlessness and self-gratification, who despise any and all authority figures.

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 19:39
Here is a fitting quote from this rocket scientist's profile:

dorkweed has not made any friends yet

Hack
10-22-2011, 20:18
Here is a fitting quote from this rocket scientist's profile:

dorkweed has not made any friends yet

Indeed. Iggy is my friend.

razdog76
10-22-2011, 20:40
C'mon Vigilant, you have to get a little entertainment out of Officer Dorkweed.:supergrin:

Cochese
10-22-2011, 20:51
And y'all wonder why "We The People".......and myself........have contempt for most of you!!!!!! You look at us as "subjects/suspects/perpetrators and not "citizens".


For example..............look back a few threads............the one entitled "Burger For a Cop". If'n y'all are that paranoid about "We The People" that work in the food industry, it's truly no wonder that we do not have the same attitude toward y'all!!!!:upeyes:

And to those that insist on belittling my name............my name is Officer Rivieri...........Dude:tongueout::tongueout:!!!!!

Dickweed,

Its quite obvious you lack several things here.

Reading comprehension.

Fundamental understanding of municipal and county compensation plans.

Anything related to criminal justice or police operations.


You are a ****** bag of the highest order for bringing your incessant yammering into a subfotum which was placed here solely to give the police on this board a reprieve from the likes of you and your ilk.

I speak for everyone here when I say get lost.

If we want to interact with the likes of you we will slum it in GNG.

JBaird22
10-22-2011, 20:53
Merit increases, bonuses or anything having to do with "how you did" do not belong in government. When doing a "better" job will get you more money it quickly lends itself toward corruption. It also lends, as someone else stated before, to backstabbing and turning each other on one another. I agree that a step system is the best. You can have annual performance appraisals as I believe everyone should know how the brass sees them as progressing, but those appraisals should have nothing to do with whether or not an officer gets a raise.

I will not say anymore as I do not want to stir anything in reference to my work, other than this, our department gets $1 for every ticket and that money has to be used on training. That is the only direct benefit for us from writing more tickets.

Nick.45
10-22-2011, 20:54
And y'all wonder why "We The People".......and myself........have contempt for most of you!!!!!! You look at us as "subjects/suspects/perpetrators and not "citizens".


For example..............look back a few threads............the one entitled "Burger For a Cop". If'n y'all are that paranoid about "We The People" that work in the food industry, it's truly no wonder that we do not have the same attitude toward y'all!!!!:upeyes:

And to those that insist on belittling my name............my name is Officer Rivieri...........Dude:tongueout::tongueout:!!!!!

If you ever had to do a job where you could be killed at any moment by any person, you too would be suspicious of everyone around you. Instead you work in the "food industry" where your biggest worry on any particular day is whether you remembered to put ketchup on the last burger you made.

Vigilant
10-22-2011, 20:55
^^^^^ He has guns. He is right. :thumbsup:

Hack
10-22-2011, 20:56
^^^^^ He has guns. He is right. :thumbsup:

:rofl:

dorkweed
10-22-2011, 20:56
Ignore is such a nice little function



I truly hope........for my sake........that attitude doesn't permeate your job performance.

Such hostility and vitriol you have for those that you are charged to serve.........or should I say.......supress!!!?????:crying: I say these things, not to get under your skin, but to "open your minds" to other avenues of thought besides "copdome".

Y'all are subjected to the "lowest common denominator" of our society. Many of you let that creep into your dealings with us.........the "regular" folks.

Lighten up a bit. We want to go home at the end of a hard days work.........just like y'all!!!:wow: Amazing isn't it!!!:upeyes:

Respect is earned..........not given.:cool:

Hack
10-22-2011, 20:57
Today, 21:56
Remove user from ignore listdorkweed
This message is hidden because dorkweed is on your ignore list.

Newcop761
10-22-2011, 20:59
You haven't earned it.

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Vigilant
10-22-2011, 20:59
You still don't get it, dickwad. We don't see everyone in the same light as we see rocket scientists such as yourself. Justice is a straight line, not an offensive. We hold that line, each in our own way, and live to help those who can be helped.

You, sir, are in sad shape.

Hack
10-22-2011, 21:04
You still don't get it, dickwad. We don't see everyone in the same light as we see rocket scientists such as yourself. Justice is a straight line, not an offensive. We hold that line, each in our own way, and live to help those who can be helped.

You, sir, are in sad shape.

Quoted for the truth.

blueiron
10-22-2011, 22:51
I see the reasons for taking a vacation from CT are still here.

These clumps of genetic offal should be banned for clearly violating the TOS and forum rules.

Cochese
10-23-2011, 02:26
I truly hope........for my sake........that attitude doesn't permeate your job performance.

Such hostility and vitriol you have for those that you are charged to serve.........or should I say.......supress!!!?????:crying: I say these things, not to get under your skin, but to "open your minds" to other avenues of thought besides "copdome".

Y'all are subjected to the "lowest common denominator" of our society. Many of you let that creep into your dealings with us.........the "regular" folks.

Lighten up a bit. We want to go home at the end of a hard days work.........just like y'all!!!:wow: Amazing isn't it!!!:upeyes:

Respect is earned..........not given.:cool:


What an *******.

You are so off base, it ain't funny.

You don't know any of us.

You don't know anything, period.

RussP
10-23-2011, 10:56
And you LEO types always profess that there's no "quota system"!!!!!! What are us "subjects" to think now??!!!I expected this type of response..........although I would've expected more responses.

It's real easy for municipalities to, "off the record", tell coppers to write more tickets to ease the budget shortfalls most are seeing now...............but what is that doing in essence????? I'll answer that for you............rather than have regular patrol cops "CONCENTRATE" on REAL crime they look for easy avenues of "REVENUE ENHANCEMENT" via the undocumented, never-existent quota!!!!!!

OK, so it's not a quota..............but if any of y'all say that you're not "highly motivated" or "highly encouraged" to write as many tickets as possible, I'll call BS right here and now. How does that "fight crime"????


Granted, many criminals are idiots and violate the "rules of the road" regularly..........but to "tax the many, to benefit the few" is not the way to go about things IMHO!!!!So, in essence, what you're saying is that they're getting rid of the "no value added management" types!!! That's a good thing IMHO as far a taxing the "working class" goes!!!!No. That's not what I said at all!!!!


Typical response here!!And y'all wonder why "We The People".......and myself........have contempt for most of you!!!!!! You look at us as "subjects/suspects/perpetrators and not "citizens".


For example..............look back a few threads............the one entitled "Burger For a Cop". If'n y'all are that paranoid about "We The People" that work in the food industry, it's truly no wonder that we do not have the same attitude toward y'all!!!!

And to those that insist on belittling my name............my name is Officer Rivieri...........Dude!!!!!I truly hope........for my sake........that attitude doesn't permeate your job performance.

Such hostility and vitriol you have for those that you are charged to serve.........or should I say.......supress!!!????? I say these things, not to get under your skin, but to "open your minds" to other avenues of thought besides "copdome".

Y'all are subjected to the "lowest common denominator" of our society. Many of you let that creep into your dealings with us.........the "regular" folks.

Lighten up a bit. We want to go home at the end of a hard days work.........just like y'all!!! Amazing isn't it!!!

Respect is earned..........not given.Dorkweed, I removed all your :upeyes:, :faint:, :dunno:, :yawn:, :crying:, etc. While you believe they add to your insulting behavior, they aren't necessary. Your words are sufficient.

You say, " I say these things, not to get under your skin, but to "open your minds" to other avenues of thought besides "copdome"." I don't believe you at all. Your posts are clearly to get under the skin of these cops. You want to come into Cop Talk to educate? No, you are here to insult and demean, to puff your chest and strut your holier-than-thou attitude.

May I suggest you read the following post and adhere to its guidelines. http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=622412

Cochese
10-23-2011, 11:28
Thanks Russ.

Sorry if I was a little surly.

After the night I had at work, reading that guys inane B.S. made me want to push him into traffic.

:wavey:

lawman800
10-23-2011, 19:46
We used to have something like that which didn't last long after the powers that be screwed people over enough times while awarding their cronies.

I like recognition being given to good peoples but a letter or memo suffices for insertion in the personnel file or mention at a staff meeting. Throw money in the mix and you're playing with fire.

Patchman
10-23-2011, 20:08
You mean to tell me that management plays favorites with who gets the bonus checks? I have a real hard time believing that...


Just this weekend I was talking with someone who retired as a military attache to Libya's Colonel Momar Khadafi's regime. According to him, The Colonel wasn't really a bad person. More misunderstood because of his big mouth than anything else.

So I guess it really depends on whether management favors you, or have you executed. It's nothing business. It's just personal. :)

steveksux
10-23-2011, 20:35
Just this weekend I was talking with someone who retired as a military attache to Libya's Colonel Momar Khadafi's regime. According to him, The Colonel wasn't really a bad person. More misunderstood because of his big mouth than anything else.

So I guess it really depends on whether management favors you, or have you executed. It's nothing business. It's just personal. :)And here I thought my funny comment got lost when the thread went.... into the weeds... :whistling:

Randy

ICARRY2
10-23-2011, 21:29
And you LEO types always profess that there's no "quota system"!!!!!!:upeyes::upeyes: What are us "subjects" to think now??!!!:dunno:

Dorkweed,

I'm not a leo either, but how can you possibly be upset that the police get an occasional appreciation lunch at taxpayer expense? :upeyes:

I suppose you want the police to purchase their own practice ammo too?

lawman800
10-23-2011, 21:43
Just this weekend I was talking with someone who retired as a military attache to Libya's Colonel Momar Khadafi's regime. According to him, The Colonel wasn't really a bad person. More misunderstood because of his big mouth than anything else.

So I guess it really depends on whether management favors you, or have you executed. It's nothing business. It's just personal. :)

This.

We get the complaints of favoritism and cronyism but funny how the same people that complain about it also are the first ones to take advantage of it when they are the beneficiaries.

BlackPaladin
10-24-2011, 00:48
Thank you Russ!

On to the topic at hand, I think that performance based bonuses are not the best idea. I see it being something that the dept. suck-up takes home, not the deserving. It would not at all be hard for someone to spend time "fluffing" their stats to look good.

This opinion comes from someone who has never worked at a place that offers a bonus.

Hack
10-24-2011, 11:22
Thanks Russ.

Sorry if I was a little surly.

After the night I had at work, reading that guys inane B.S. made me want to push him into traffic.

:wavey:

I wanted to give him a **** **** myself. But, I gotta be professional.:whistling: So, I just placed him on ignore status. Much more peaceful.