Semi-Auto Tactical Shotgun vs. Pump [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TexasGlockster
10-22-2011, 15:43
So I'm just getting into the idea of buying a tactical shotgun for home defense. What are the pros and cons of semi-auto (and within that, gas powered vs. inertia powered)? Are pump actions really that much more reliable/durable? Does one require less cleaning than the other?

Also, I've heard about shotgun rounds that are packed with glass pellets rather than lead as a means of making them safer to use in a home defense situation (less likelihood of over penetration). Anyone know if these actually exist and if so who makes them?

aippi
10-22-2011, 16:05
More moving parts, more for Mr. Murphy to screw with. That alone tells you a pump is more reliable then any sem-auto. Your going to get so many different answers that this entire thread is going to be useless to you. You asked the right questions and can figure out the answer with common sence.

Glass shotgun shells, never hear of them. Sounds like some silly mess to me. Better off busting the guy in the head with a Bud long neck bottle, if they even make them any longer.

WoodenPlank
10-22-2011, 16:07
So I'm just getting into the idea of buying a tactical shotgun for home defense. What are the pros and cons of semi-auto (and within that, gas powered vs. inertia powered)? Are pump actions really that much more reliable/durable? Does one require less cleaning than the other?

Also, I've heard about shotgun rounds that are packed with glass pellets rather than lead as a means of making them safer to use in a home defense situation (less likelihood of over penetration). Anyone know if these actually exist and if so who makes them?

Personally, I prefer a pump gun, but semis have their advantages.

As for the glass shot, sounds like an internet rumor, and I highly doubt they would have enough mass to be effective. If it is able to stop a BG, it is going to be more than powerful enough to go through sheetrock.

DougW
10-22-2011, 17:47
I have owned short barreled pumps (and they are reliable and tough), but the current 2 HD shotguns are auto loaders (Benelli's). Mine have always been totally reliable, even with rediced recoil buck or slugs, which is all I shoot these days.

joeshdog
10-22-2011, 18:18
Good question Texas! Ive been debating which one to get also. Never owning a pump or semi I was hoping to gain some knowledge from the replys. My gut tells me to go pump, but I was surprised when Mas suggested looking into the auto's. He was replying to a question I posted in regards to a 20 gauge pump for hd. Here is part of his reply: (before you buy, consider going with an auto instead of a pump. It takes a LOT of habituation to run a pump gun swiftly on "auto pilot," and while you may have the skill and experience to do it, the others in the home defense "pool" who resort to that gun may not) Again, he was replying to a question on a 20 gauge and evidently the Remington 20 ga pumps have been known to jam. The 12 gauges were very reliable. But it told me that he must have some degree of trust in todays autos. I was hoping to hear some positives on the auto's from owners and what attention they need to run reliably. I also read that auto's kick less than pumps and in 12 gauge that could be a plus depending on age and physical stature.

glockenturm
10-23-2011, 03:16
Make sure whatever you get is comfortable to shoot and encourages practice. My first shotgun was not and it sat in a closet after the first outing. Then again, the range I went to only allowed slugs......

Both auto and pumps can and do experience failures. The key is learning how to clear stoppages and practice......which I'm guilty of not doing enough. :quiet:


Here are my opinions:

Pump gun Pros: Can shoot any shell designed to fit the gun.

Semi Auto Pros : Can shoot really fast.

My philosophy is learn on the most challenging system first and everything else is easy. Become proficient with a pump then an auto will seem really easy. If you learn on an auto first, you might get frustrated with a pump. Unlike a handgun, it's not really easy to carry a shotgun everywhere you go. And if you are staying at someone else's home while away, odds are they will have a pump action and you can become useful should an emergency arise.

Now the next question you should ask on the forum is which brand and why? :whistling:

CCV
10-23-2011, 06:31
I'll take my Benelli M2 Tactical and not feel at any disadvantage.

tenntornado
10-23-2011, 07:46
Slide action

jhooten
10-23-2011, 12:17
The only gun replaced so far after the great conflagration is my 11-87P. This time I splurged and got the ghost ring sights.

aippi
10-23-2011, 14:37
My favorite shooter is my 11-87P but it lives in my safe and I would never trust it with my life. The design is the reason. It will only fire heavy loads so practice means buckshot and slugs. It can not be fired from the hip as the action spring will not compact enough to send the breech bolt forward and lock up. Therefor, it has to be fired from a solid shooting stance. Great for range fun but you are not going to have a perfect solid stance in a fight.

Buffering
10-23-2011, 15:00
I played the trombone throughout school and I'm a slide person with shotguns. A pump person can be nearly as fast as a semi and with less parts to break, it's my choice for HD.

The only downside to a pump is the quickness of shots however i wonder if it's more of a theoretical difference than real. The downsides to an auto are more than that and while some have no negative experiences with ammo selection, the pump exhibts no such tendancies.

A pump is like a T shirt and jeans whereas an auto is like designer jeans and a Tommy Bahama shirt.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2011, 19:32
So I'm just getting into the idea of buying a tactical shotgun for home defense. What are the pros and cons of semi-auto (and within that, gas powered vs. inertia powered)? Are pump actions really that much more reliable/durable? Does one require less cleaning than the other?

Also, I've heard about shotgun rounds that are packed with glass pellets rather than lead as a means of making them safer to use in a home defense situation (less likelihood of over penetration). Anyone know if these actually exist and if so who makes them?

Not all Semi's are created equal. In three gun its rare to see a Benelli or a FN SLP malfunction when fed good ammo. In fact seeing a shoote short stroke a pump is more common. However I have lost track of how many times I have seen Remington 1100's choke.

The Pros to pumps
1. Can far pretty much anything that fits in the chamber.
2. Much cheaper.
3. More reliable if the shooter runs the gun properly (but only slightly)

Cons
1. More recoil
2. Slower to cycle and shoot.
3. Don't tell you when you are out of ammo. You usually end up getting a click on an empty chamber and have wasted precious time.

Autos

Pro's
1. softer recoil (with gas operated guns)
2. Faster cycling and hence you can shoot them faster. That is why pumps are seldom used in three gun outside of Heavy Metal that requires their use.

Cons
1. More finicky with ammo need to meet a certain power floor.
2. More maintance required although I have yet to clean my Benelli M2 I purchased this summer and have used in over 12 matches firing over 500 rounds through it so far with no malfunctions.
Pat

Nestor
10-24-2011, 05:28
Pump, because with a bit of training on your side it's gonna be fast enough, but even without such training it's gonna be more reliable (as long as You will stick to the proven design).

RetailNinjitsu
10-24-2011, 19:06
Auto for me...

My FN SLP has been %100 reliable, can be fired with one hand, has far less recoil than my 590s, and can't be short-stroked.

I have short-stroked guns many times, but I have never experienced a failure with the SLP. It was an easy choice...

Alaskapopo
10-24-2011, 19:13
Pump, because with a bit of training on your side it's gonna be fast enough, but even without such training it's gonna be more reliable (as long as You will stick to the proven design).

Without training the pump is less reliable. I have seen too many new shooters and even some cops on the firing line short stroke their pumps. As for speed there is no such thing as fast enough. Being faster and more accurate than the other guy means you get to go home and he doesn't
Pat

mixflip
10-24-2011, 19:14
Im good to go with either one if I dont have the luxury of choice.

Alaskapopo
10-24-2011, 19:16
Im good to go with either one if I dont have the luxury of choice.

I agree I can run either. Right now for work I run a Vang 870 but I am looking at changing to a custom R&R Saiga short barrel shotgun. I have enjoyed my full on race ready R&R so I may just take the plunge on a tactical one.
Pat

Denied
10-24-2011, 20:32
only point I will add is if you are like me, after the new wears off the gun will set in the closet or under the bed fully loaded for long periods of time, with that to consider stick with the pump, it will be much more reliable with little or no maintenance.

aippi
10-24-2011, 20:59
Stating a semi-auto is faster then a pump is misleading to many readers. If you are talking about just pulling the trigger and making noise, then yes. However, I and many other shooters, some who are posting on this thread, are as fast and accurate with a pump as you guys are with your semi-autos. When hits count, I shoot my 870 as fast as my 11-87P.

I see a lot on these blogs from guys that have never had to rely on one of these weapons in the line of duty. Easy to speculate on all this mess but when it is a real probability that the weapon you have is going to see you come home from work, well, you get serious about what is in your hands.

KARTMAN90
10-24-2011, 21:28
Nothing makes a noise in the dark like a 12-gauge pumping a round in the chamber. That noise and that noise alone will stop anyone in their tracks real fast

Alaskapopo
10-24-2011, 22:57
Stating a semi-auto is faster then a pump is misleading to many readers. If you are talking about just pulling the trigger and making noise, then yes. However, I and many other shooters, some who are posting on this thread, are as fast and accurate with a pump as you guys are with your semi-autos. When hits count, I shoot my 870 as fast as my 11-87P.

I see a lot on these blogs from guys that have never had to rely on one of these weapons in the line of duty. Easy to speculate on all this mess but when it is a real probability that the weapon you have is going to see you come home from work, well, you get serious about what is in your hands.

With all due respect no. I shoot with some very good shooters in three gun and most of us started with pumps because that is what we had. But there comes a point when you realize a semi is faster. That is why the best shooters don't use pumps in three gun except in Heavy Metal Divison that requires it. Basically two shooters of equal skill one with a pump and one with an auto. The auto shooter will be faster. You're thinking of a skilled shooter with a pump vs a poor shooter with an auto.
For the record I have had to save my own life on duty with my shotgun from a charging bear.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-24-2011, 22:58
Nothing makes a noise in the dark like a 12-gauge pumping a round in the chamber. That noise and that noise alone will stop anyone in their tracks real fast

Urban myth. Yes some people will be scared off but then again the same people would be scared off at the sound of a barking dog. All racking the shotgun does with a skilled opponent is give away your location.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-24-2011, 22:59
only point I will add is if you are like me, after the new wears off the gun will set in the closet or under the bed fully loaded for long periods of time, with that to consider stick with the pump, it will be much more reliable with little or no maintenance.

Actually there is no difference between a good semi and a good pump in that situation. The main thing that will give both guns problems is the magazine spring will eventually weaken.
Pat

Big Bird
10-24-2011, 23:04
My #1 HD shotgun is my Benelli M2 Tactical. I own three Benelli shotguns and they have all been superbly reliable. My M2 wouldn't feed light loads out of the box but I easily fixed that with a Wolff reduced power recoil spring and the gun has been flawless for nearly 1,000 rounds since. I suspect the 14" barrel and the smaller Mesa Urbino stock I put on it might have changed the dynamics of the recoil momentum because all my other Benellis shoot light target loads with perfect reliability including my SBE2.

Nestor
10-25-2011, 07:17
Without training the pump is less reliable. I have seen too many new shooters and even some cops on the firing line short stroke their pumps. As for speed there is no such thing as fast enough. Being faster and more accurate than the other guy means you get to go home and he doesn't
Pat

Without the proper training there is no reason to trust any firearm, so it's hardly an argument. Fast enough is fast enough. You may question this, but fast enough means nothing more than that.

pugman
10-25-2011, 08:05
Glass shotgun shells, never hear of them. Sounds like some silly mess to me. Better off busting the guy in the head with a Bud long neck bottle, if they even make them any longer.

In my CCW class (thank god Wisconsin finally passed this) a lady asked if rubber bullets were available for a pistol.

The instructor asked why?

She said in case she just wants to scare an attacker.

The instructor's exact words "Madam, if you pull your firearm and your intent is to scare someone you have no business carrying a gun. If this is the case I can let you leave now and will make sure your class fee is returned to you"

Not that I want glass BBs flying at me but glass filled shotgun shells seems like a gimmick.

I understand the risk of over penetration...but I would think there are more reliable methods to at least mitigate the risk.

mstennes
10-25-2011, 08:23
In my CCW class (thank god Wisconsin finally passed this) a lady asked if rubber bullets were available for a pistol.

The instructor asked why?

She said in case she just wants to scare an attacker.

The instructor's exact words "Madam, if you pull your firearm and your intent is to scare someone you have no business carrying a gun. If this is the case I can let you leave now and will make sure your class fee is returned to you"

Not that I want glass BBs flying at me but glass filled shotgun shells seems like a gimmick.

I understand the risk of over penetration...but I would think there are more reliable methods to at least mitigate the risk.

It has got to be a gimmick, ever see a glass beader? Sure there are different types of media for different metals, surfaces, wood, etc. When the glass beads are used, they pretty much tend to vaporize before allot of them hit the metal, and those that do, they disingrate on contact, even on wood. My point here, is if they were strong enough to durvive the shot, I doubt they would be worth a darn when they hit their target.

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 08:46
There's a reason the US Marine Corps selected the Benelli M4:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_M4

I have a couple of 870s (one about 30 years old with a simple front bead and the other is fairly new with ghost ring sights and a breaching choke) but the M4 is my go-to shotgun.

I can drive the 870s pretty well but I really prefer the M4. I like the simplicity of interrupting a string of 00 buck to insert a slug. That maneuver is much more involved with an 870.

Richard

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 08:54
Deleted

aippi
10-25-2011, 09:44
What part of "I" accurately fire my 870 as fast as my 11-87P did you not get there PoPo? Are you stating I am unskilled???????????? Been shoting these weapons for almost 50 years. Not some kid here making mess up for the inter-net. I have LEO's on my range often and some of these guys make shooting an 870 look like shooting a Gallery gun. I am stating what I can do and what others can do and you are challanging my statement not knowing a thing about me or my ability. Not very objective is it? I can also assure you there are guys on this forum that can use each weapon as fast and effectively. So that mess a semi is fast won't get saluted by people that can use both these weapon with the same proficientcy.

You stopped a charging bear with a semi-auto shotgun. Good thing you had a weapon, however, a pump would have served the same purpose of course and there is not a semi-auto shotgun made that I would carry for bear protection nor take to a gun fight over a pump. I have multiple AI&P Tactical Shotguns in your state that are being carried for bear protection. Some by professional guides and three in the cabins of them puddle jump planes up there. None of these people would consider a semi-atuo for that use.

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 12:44
Without the proper training there is no reason to trust any firearm, so it's hardly an argument. Fast enough is fast enough. You may question this, but fast enough means nothing more than that.

As a firearms trainer I know the value of proper training. That being said a semi is has its advantages over pumps. And no your wrong there is no such thing as fast enough.
pat

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 12:47
What part of "I" accurately fire my 870 as fast as my 11-87P did you not get there PoPo? Are you stating I am unskilled???????????? Been shoting these weapons for almost 50 years. Not some kid here making mess up for the inter-net. I have LEO's on my range often and some of these guys make shooting an 870 look like shooting a Gallery gun. I am stating what I can do and what others can do and you are challanging my statement not knowing a thing about me or my ability. Not very objective is it? I can also assure you there are guys on this forum that can use each weapon as fast and effectively. So that mess a semi is fast won't get saluted by people that can use both these weapon with the same proficientcy.

You stopped a charging bear with a semi-auto shotgun. Good thing you had a weapon, however, a pump would have served the same purpose of course and there is not a semi-auto shotgun made that I would carry for bear protection nor take to a gun fight over a pump. I have multiple AI&P Tactical Shotguns in your state that are being carried for bear protection. Some by professional guides and three in the cabins of them puddle jump planes up there. None of these people would consider a semi-atuo for that use.

Actually I used my Pump 870 (done up by Hans Vang) to stop the bear. That does not change the point that a Semi is faster. JD you sound like one of those guys who has never so much as used a shot timer. What I am stating is that if you have two equally skilled individuals the semi will be faster. No way around that. Your using to working on Remingtons and with Remingtons yes give me a pump. Remington Semis suck. Seen them choke so much I would never trust them. Now a Benelli is a whole different story.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 12:52
There's a reason the US Marine Corps selected the Benelli M4:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_M4

I have a couple of 870s (one about 30 years old with a simple front bead and the other is fairly new with ghost ring sights and a breaching choke) but the M4 is my go-to shotgun.

I can drive the 870s pretty well but I really prefer the M4. I like the simplicity of interrupting a string of 00 buck to insert a slug. That maneuver is much more involved with an 870.

Richard

Actually a select slug drill with the 870 is about the easiest.
1. Rack the action back roll the shell out of action insert new slug and close the action.


Pat

aippi
10-25-2011, 13:18
Good stuff, objective comments that reflect the knowledge of the forum members.

Novocaine
10-25-2011, 14:29
My M2 is more reliable than my 870. M2 would be my HD gun if I considered a shotgun to be the best tool for the job. The complexity of the game changes a bit when one of your arms/hands is disabled. But I take pistol-gripped 870 along when I travel because itís more compact.

Now, I donít shoot 3-gun but Iíve been shooting doves and sporting clays for 20 years and wholeheartedly sign up under two of the premises Alaskapopo advances here:

1. Semi is faster than pump
2. Pump is easy to short stroke when things need to be done in a hurry


And donít forget about the little safety thingie on 870 that prohibits applying back pressure on the slide before breaking the sear :)

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 14:40
Actually a select slug drill with the 870 is about the easiest.
1. Rack the action back roll the shell out of action insert new slug and close the action.


Pat

There's rather more to it than that. You have to eject the chambered shell, roll the gun to drop the shell on the lift plate, insert a new shell and close the bolt.

Since you are manipulating the slide with your left hand (right handed shooter), you have to decide how and where to store the slug. Do you move your left hand and lose control of the fore-end for a moment while you load 'over the top' or do you load with your right hand, moving away from the trigger. Somehow you still have to roll the gun.

With the M4, you can hold the bolt reward with your right hand while you load 'over the top' with your left. But at least your right hand is somewhere near the trigger and control of the fore-end isn't required to close the bolt and fire the weapon.

Alternately, you could do the entire operation on the M4 with just the right hand while maintaining control with the left. I have never tried this but I'll do it the next time I am at the range. Grab the shell from the left side of the receiver with the right hand, open the bolt with the edge of the hand and insert the shell in the opening. Release the bolt and fire.

I have both guns and I have used the 870 a LOT more than the M4. I just remember when I was first introduced to the Benelli back in the early '80s and how impressed I was with the ability to interrupt a string; the fact that the fall of the hammer released a shell to the lift plate, not the motion of the bolt.

Either way, it isn't the kind of thing that determines which weapon to buy. The 870s are the standard in the industry (yes, there are others such as the Mossberg) and they will always be a good choice. It's just that I have wanted a Benelli for about 30 years and I finally got one! But I'm keeping the 870s...

Richard

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 15:14
There's rather more to it than that. You have to eject the chambered shell, roll the gun to drop the shell on the lift plate, insert a new shell and close the bolt.

Since you are manipulating the slide with your left hand (right handed shooter), you have to decide how and where to store the slug. Do you move your left hand and lose control of the fore-end for a moment while you load 'over the top' or do you load with your right hand, moving away from the trigger. Somehow you still have to roll the gun.

With the M4, you can hold the bolt reward with your right hand while you load 'over the top' with your left. But at least your right hand is somewhere near the trigger and control of the fore-end isn't required to close the bolt and fire the weapon.

Alternately, you could do the entire operation on the M4 with just the right hand while maintaining control with the left. I have never tried this but I'll do it the next time I am at the range. Grab the shell from the left side of the receiver with the right hand, open the bolt with the edge of the hand and insert the shell in the opening. Release the bolt and fire.

I have both guns and I have used the 870 a LOT more than the M4. I just remember when I was first introduced to the Benelli back in the early '80s and how impressed I was with the ability to interrupt a string; the fact that the fall of the hammer released a shell to the lift plate, not the motion of the bolt.

Either way, it isn't the kind of thing that determines which weapon to buy. The 870s are the standard in the industry (yes, there are others such as the Mossberg) and they will always be a good choice. It's just that I have wanted a Benelli for about 30 years and I finally got one! But I'm keeping the 870s...

Richard

It can be done fairly quickly.
1. step one rack the slide back (that ejects the shell in the chamber)
2. step two roll the gun hard to the ejection port side (this clears the shell from the lifter.
3. step 3 take a shell off the side saddle (or where ever you carry your shells) and insert it in the chamber port. (use your support hand to load the shell)
4. Step 4 close the action and fire.

For the Benelli there is actually a pretty cool way to do a select slug but it takes a bit of practice.
1. Retain the gun in your support hand (on forearm)
2. Use your strong hand to grab a slug between your thumb and forefinger.
3. Move your strong hand to the bolt handle and use your pinky and ring finger to run the bolt to the rear hard (the chambered shell comes out) and at the same time drop the new slug into the gun.

Its one quick motion once you get it down. This works thanks to the Benelli's magazine cut off.

Around 34 seconds in the video is where I do a select slug drill with the 870.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ype89U4UDIc

Forgive the miss on the first 5 poppers. Just got out of synch. Fortunately it did not cost me the match. I got 1st place in this leo only three gun. I got 1st overall, 1st in pistol, 3rd in rifle and 4th in shotgun.

That was back in early Sept. (20 pounds heavier then)

Now for the most recent civilian match with my M2 on a stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0y-HGMm-pQ
Saiga on same stage. (the missing on the slugs was my fault due to using slugs I was not zeroed with).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XElqvlwR8Q

I am not saying the pump is not a viable platform. Its very viable and has some unique advantages mostly because you can fire anything in it from breaching rounds to full power slugs. I use a pump at work because we use cracker shells (noise makers) a lot to scare bears off. However if that does not work with a pump its only one stroke away from having a slug in the chamber. With an auto I have to move my support hand and run the action because the cracker shells are much too weak to cycle the action. If I were using a shotgun as a primary fighting weapon instead of against animals I would use a semi. But frankly our rifles are for human threats. In a gun fight give me a good 5.56 carbine over any shotgun.
Pat

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 15:24
It can be done fairly quickly.
1. step one rack the slide back (that ejects the shell in the chamber)
2. step two roll the gun hard to the ejection port side (this clears the shell from the lifter.
3. step 3 take a shell off the side saddle (or where ever you carry your shells) and insert it in the chamber port.
4. Step 4 close the action.

And it all can be done while controlling the gun with the left hand. But step 2 is the issue. The roll has to be deliberate enough to get that shell to fall out of the receiver.

It would be kind of fun to try this with both guns and a shot timer. I wonder how it will come out. One of these days...

Richard

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 15:30
And it all can be done while controlling the gun with the left hand. But step 2 is the issue. The roll has to be deliberate enough to get that shell to fall out of the receiver.

It would be kind of fun to try this with both guns and a shot timer. I wonder how it will come out. One of these days...

Richard

When the weather lets up I will try to get a friend to video me doing it with the 870 and the Benelli.
Pat

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 16:14
For the Benelli there is actually a pretty cool way to do a select slug but it takes a bit of practice.
1. Retain the gun in your support hand (on forearm)
2. Use your strong hand to grab a slug between your thumb and forefinger.
3. Move your strong hand to the bolt handle and use your pinky and ring finger to run the bolt to the rear hard (the chambered shell comes out) and at the same time drop the new slug into the gun.

Its one quick motion once you get it down. This works thanks to the Benelli's magazine cut off.



That's the method I want to try next time I'm at the range. Either the pinkie/ring finger or edge of the hand. I'll try them both.

Very nice shooting. I really like that spinner target; I hadn't seen anything like that before.

Richard

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 18:15
That's the method I want to try next time I'm at the range. Either the pinkie/ring finger or edge of the hand. I'll try them both.

Very nice shooting. I really like that spinner target; I hadn't seen anything like that before.

Richard

The target is called a Texas Star its a lot of fun.
Here are some stages I have shot the star on. Most matches up here use it at some point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBrHbn7ohHo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgfxdhz4o9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4X6giB8dX4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUwc8VSSCCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VVLiwxUQbE

TexasGlockster
10-25-2011, 18:31
Only point I will add is if you are like me, after the new wears off the gun will set in the closet or under the bed fully loaded for long periods of time, with that to consider stick with the pump, it will be much more reliable with little or no maintenance.

Good point. Anyone want to chime in on that one? Because I am planning on using this as a SD weapon, it is likely that it will not get used regularly (that being said, no good weapon deserves to be ignored :supergrin:, so I'd definitely take it shooting a couple of times a year at minimum).

As for the glass shells. I agree it does sound gimmicky. I learned about them through a person I work with who is a platoon commander for the Army reserves. The idea is that they work like rock salt does, seriously incapaciting or (depending on the range) killing a person without causing a significant amount of collateral damage. I'm not even saying I would want to use them if they exist, I ask because I want to be informed (as I'm sure we all do) about the ramifications of the ammo I choose to have at the ready.

It is possible that he loads it himself...that thought just struck me.
:dunno::faint::dunno:

sdsnet
10-25-2011, 19:01
I have always been told that semi-auto shotguns are for hunting and pump is for self defense. Pump for reliability and there is the intimidating sound too :cool:

This is the next gun on my list. At $655 it is a great deal too.

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/02/01/kel-tec-ksg-shotgun/

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/516040_Kel-Tec_Rifles_Shotguns_KSG_12_18_5_14+1_TOP_PIC_RAIL.aspx

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 19:05
I have always been told that semi-auto shotguns are for hunting and pump is for self defense. Pump for reliability and there is the intimidating sound too :cool:

This is the next gun on my list. At $655 it is a great deal too.

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/02/01/kel-tec-ksg-shotgun/

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/516040_Kel-Tec_Rifles_Shotguns_KSG_12_18_5_14+1_TOP_PIC_RAIL.aspx

That would make a nice little truck gun. Only down side is once your down with the 14 shells reloading is very slow.
Pat

#5xbr
10-25-2011, 19:26
my 15 year old mossberg model 5500-semi shoots as fast as i can pull the trigger- it has never failed me

Alaskapopo
10-25-2011, 20:06
The arguments your seeing against semi auto shotguns were much like he arguments made against auto pistols when compared to revolvers back in the 80's
Pat

Louisville Glocker
10-25-2011, 20:33
My Saiga S12 seems like a winner to me for home defense. I keep a ten round mag in there. Plenty of shots as fast as you can squeeze the trigger, and AK reliability. (yes folks, AK's are reliable)

I can't imagine a pump being faster - and speed can only be an asset in a life-or-death situation. Why not let the gun do the chambering for you, rather than a long arm motion?

bluejackets92fs
10-25-2011, 20:45
You cant go wrong with either one. Like I tell my customers, gun buying is 10% facts, 90% personal preference. Semi auto is a little more complicated but still comprehensible. Pump action is proven so no need to really cover them. I know I use pump for home defense but may be switching because a bad shoulder so take that into consideration. Look at your situation and weigh the pros and cons very thoroughly.

mixflip
10-26-2011, 11:42
A $1 extractor spring can shut down any gun regardless of its design and price and reputation. There is no need to argue over what is better. If Murphys law kicks in ods are you might not even be fighting with your own weapon or the weapon you planned on fighting for your life with.

Hokie
10-26-2011, 17:33
It can be done fairly quickly.
1. step one rack the slide back (that ejects the shell in the chamber)
2. step two roll the gun hard to the ejection port side (this clears the shell from the lifter.
3. step 3 take a shell off the side saddle (or where ever you carry your shells) and insert it in the chamber port. (use your support hand to load the shell)
4. Step 4 close the action and fire.

For the Benelli there is actually a pretty cool way to do a select slug but it takes a bit of practice.
1. Retain the gun in your support hand (on forearm)
2. Use your strong hand to grab a slug between your thumb and forefinger.
3. Move your strong hand to the bolt handle and use your pinky and ring finger to run the bolt to the rear hard (the chambered shell comes out) and at the same time drop the new slug into the gun.

Its one quick motion once you get it down. This works thanks to the Benelli's magazine cut off.

Around 34 seconds in the video is where I do a select slug drill with the 870.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ype89U4UDIc

Forgive the miss on the first 5 poppers. Just got out of synch. Fortunately it did not cost me the match. I got 1st place in this leo only three gun. I got 1st overall, 1st in pistol, 3rd in rifle and 4th in shotgun.

That was back in early Sept. (20 pounds heavier then)

Now for the most recent civilian match with my M2 on a stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0y-HGMm-pQ
Saiga on same stage. (the missing on the slugs was my fault due to using slugs I was not zeroed with).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XElqvlwR8Q

I am not saying the pump is not a viable platform. Its very viable and has some unique advantages mostly because you can fire anything in it from breaching rounds to full power slugs. I use a pump at work because we use cracker shells (noise makers) a lot to scare bears off. However if that does not work with a pump its only one stroke away from having a slug in the chamber. With an auto I have to move my support hand and run the action because the cracker shells are much too weak to cycle the action. If I were using a shotgun as a primary fighting weapon instead of against animals I would use a semi. But frankly our rifles are for human threats. In a gun fight give me a good 5.56 carbine over any shotgun.
Pat

How Magpul teaches the slug change over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q4-Ag-TnyI

F106 Fan
10-26-2011, 17:51
How Magpul teaches the slug change over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q4-Ag-TnyI


Outstanding video, thanks for posting the link!

Now, as to that short stroke: I'm not convinced that it will work in any 'real' situation. Like when someone is shooting back. Nevertheless, it might be fun to practice with it. I can learn something new every day.

The Benelli part of the video is my favorite.

Richard

Hokie
10-26-2011, 17:59
Outstanding video, thanks for posting the link!

Now, as to that short stroke: I'm not convinced that it will work in any 'real' situation. Like when someone is shooting back. Nevertheless, it might be fun to practice with it. I can learn something new every day.

The Benelli part of the video is my favorite.

Richard

Their reasoning for this method is if you eject the shell in the chamber then "surf" the about to be loaded round out you lose two shells with this you only lose one shell. It does complicate things but you keep as much ammo as you can.

Big Bird
10-26-2011, 18:40
I've sat in too many duckblinds and dovefields over 40 years of hunting and watched more than a few experienced shooters who managed to short-stroke their pump shotguns when the action got hot to sit here and wax poetic about the absolute reliability of pump shotguns. Now someone can reply that this is all operator error and they would be right! But isn't that really part of the equation when it comes to running a pump? When I took the Gunsite Shotgun course there were a ton of people shooting pumps that had malfunctions and short-stroke issues. More than the semi-auto shooters for sure. Usually, this happened when we got pushed in the man-e-mano shoot offs or in one of the simulators. But that's the point of pressure isn't it? But there were also more people shooting pumps than semi-autos so maybe it was simply the over-representation of the pump gun that skewed my perception. Still--to see a pump shooter go down was more common than you would be lead to believe here.

I've also seen a tremendous improvement in the reliability in semi-auto shotguns over the last 40 years to the point that I see no PRACTICAL advantage in terms of reliability one way or the other with the possible edge going to the semi-auto. You want to argue which is faster? Its a stupid argument. Because both systems can be run far faster than any normal person's ability to shoot them accurately. But you take an average skeet shot and put him on the field shooting doubles only and 9 times out of 10 he'll do better with a semi-auto. That's because the recovery time from shot to shot is lower with the semi. You get back on target quicker. If pumps were better you'd see them still being used in Competitive Registered skeet and clays. But you don't--at least not by anyone winning their class...

I've said this before--the only repeating shotgun I've ever had go down on me in the field was a Remington 870 Special Field when the ejector broke off and it needed to go back to the factory to get fixed. (Its riveted to the side of the receiver and the rivets are machined flush with the outside of the receiver). This is all anecdotal and one mechanical failure isn't predictive of anything. I also has a JP Sauer SxS shotgun break the selector switch causing the gun to double. My Beretta Skeet gun with upwards of 80,000 shells through it has never had a malfunction (other than ammo related). So based on my experience the gun I should have the most confidence in is my Beretta O/U? Well, my Benellis have proven themselves over WAY too many adverse hunting conditions and they don't choke when the action gets hot...EVER!

JD HHI 6092
10-26-2011, 19:06
I own a 870 and a FN Mark I. I've fired a lot of rounds down range with both. But when The first time I took my 870 to the range I found that the firing pin was broke and had to send it back. They fixed it but I was really pissed. My Mark I hasn't skipped a beat and has fired everything I've put through it.

aippi
10-26-2011, 19:29
Checked back on this thread and see the usual nonsence stuff about short stroking and brand bashing that comes with all these type post. There will always be a group of guys out there looking for an idiot proof weapon instead of becoming proficient. Like golfers trying to buy a swing and low score with expensive and new equipment, instead of hitting the thousands of balls it takes. Oh, and don't forget to get a decent golf watch.

Alaskapopo
10-26-2011, 20:38
How Magpul teaches the slug change over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q4-Ag-TnyI

While I respect those guys what they just showed there on both guns is slower and over complicated from what it needs to be.
But thats my opinion.
Pat

B Coyote
10-26-2011, 21:01
While I respect those guys what they just showed there on both guns is slower and over complicated from what it needs to be.
But thats my opinion.
Pat

What's faster and less complicated?

bc

VZ1600
10-26-2011, 21:10
Nothing makes a noise in the dark like a 12-gauge pumping a round in the chamber. That noise and that noise alone will stop anyone in their tracks real fast

219953


OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors.

Alaskapopo
10-26-2011, 21:52
What's faster and less complicated?

bc

I layed out what I have been trained in post 37. I see more issues with the 870 reload he teaches especially having to pull the slide half way back and then re seat the round. Waste of time. Just rack it open and dump the round out in one motion and insert a slug.

The Benelli technique he is teaching has you holding the gun precariously with just the charging handle. Sorry but I did not like what I saw. I will try to do a video this week end if the weather cooperates. I have a lot of respect for the magpul guys but just can't agree with what I saw on this video.
Pat

B Coyote
10-27-2011, 10:46
Cool...thanks for referring back to that post. When I clicked on the newest post it skipped over all of page two and straight to page three.

bc

F106 Fan
10-27-2011, 11:00
The Benelli technique he is teaching has you holding the gun precariously with just the charging handle. Sorry but I did not like what I saw. I will try to do a video this week end if the weather cooperates. I have a lot of respect for the magpul guys but just can't agree with what I saw on this video.

Pat

I look forward to seeing your video - thanks!

I plan to try a couple of approaches this weekend (no video, I'm too old to be in the movies) but, I agree, I'm not keen on holding the shotgun with a couple of fingers on my right hand.

OTOH, I tend to use a tactical sling so there is no chance of bouncing the shotgun off the dirt. So, I'll try it both ways: with the sling and without.

Richard

Big Bird
10-27-2011, 11:19
That Magpul technique is WAY too slow and complicated for the Benelli. I hold the gun by the forearm with my left hand. Retrieve the slug and hold it between my thumb and first two finger with my right hand and while holding the slug you grab the bolt handle with your pinky, pull the bolt back, clear the chambered shell, keeping the bolt back with your pinky flex your wrist towards the open receiver rotate the gun so the port is facing up and drop the shell in. Let go of the bolt handle and you are up and running. Its takes a little dexterity and practice but its VERY quick and if you make a mistake anywhere in the procedure you can recover from the mistake very quickly. Drop the shell? Pick up another. Let go of the bolt with your pinky? Pull it back again!

Lets face it. If you have the time and situational awareness to drop in a slug and take an aimed shot you probably aren't dealing with a close in threat and you probably have time to seek cover and perform the ammunition switch.

F106 Fan
10-27-2011, 17:33
I was trying a couple of approaches to the M4 this afternoon. I can see why people replace the operating knob. Pulling the bolt with my pinky just plain hurts!

I tried the pinky approach and it works well. I didn't bother to rotate the gun, I just jammed the shell in over the lift plate. It works fine. I don't know whether probability comes into play and rotating becomes a more successful procedure.

I also tried operating the bolt with the edge of my hand down near the 3rd knuckle of the pinky finger (counting from the tip). Kind of a judo chop type of thing. It works fine and it might be a tad faster.

I need to practice a lot more before I am satisfied with the process.

Richard

7677
10-27-2011, 17:42
So I'm just getting into the idea of buying a tactical shotgun for home defense. What are the pros and cons of semi-auto (and within that, gas powered vs. inertia powered)? Are pump actions really that much more reliable/durable? Does one require less cleaning than the other?

Over the last twenty years, I have been an end user for Mossbergs, Remington 870s, and lately Benelli M1 and M4 semi automatic shotguns in various law enforcement agencies I have worked. I have been a certified Remington Armorer for over 10 years and have worked on just about every type of shotgun that Remington/Scattergun technologies makes.

The Remington 870 is the standard that all other shotguns are judged. Pump shotguns main advantage is they are very reliable and priced lower then the semi automatic shotguns.

Pump shotguns have always been my favorite gun to shoot but two years ago I purchased my Benelli M1 (inertia driven) and my times went down at the local shotgun matches. Last summer, I decided to see just how reliable my M1 really was so my friend and I entered a local shotgun swamp match. They laughed at us and said there hasn't been a semi auto shotgun to make it through this match without going down. I made it through the match without my gun going down although myself and my gun were covered in mud were as several pump shotguns did go down. http://www.ashlandlakegunclub.org/FranMan/2011/index.html

My M1 is reliable with standard loads such as 00 buck, Slugs, #4 and #6 bird shoot and the Federal reduced recoil 00 buck and slug. The gun has a aluminum receiver and kicks quite a bit with full power slugs. The down side is the gun cost approximately twice as much as my 870 and can be finicky with some lower powered shells although my practice ammunition is Federal #6 low brass. My new M4 (gas) is reliable with everything I have shot through it #7, #8 bird shot, and even the reduced recoil frangible ammunition that won't even cycle my M1. The downside to this gun is it costs 3 times as my 870. There are semi automatic shotgun that are as reliable as the pump guns however they are a lot more expensive and require more maintenance.

The one other advantage the pump has over the semi automatic shotgun is they are more forgiving with user neglect. If you shoot a semi shotgun, you have to keep it clean.

Alaskapopo
10-27-2011, 19:54
One other issue with any shotgun is check anything on it that can come loose or un screwed with recoil. One embarrasing moment I had once was when I showed my buddy my 870 and unloaded it first. He tried to dry fire it and it would not fire. What happened was the nut that holds the handguard on had come loose and was not allowing the bolt to be pushed into battery. I got some lock tight and re-tightened it. But that could have gotten me killed if I needed the gun. Just saying shotguns do shoot things loose if you shoot a lot regularly inspect them.
Pat

F106 Fan
10-27-2011, 20:59
The one other advantage the pump has over the semi automatic shotgun is they are more forgiving with user neglect. If you shoot a semi shotgun, you have to keep it clean.


Firearm cleaning
Because of their construction simplicity and correct choice of materials,
Benelli shotguns do not require any particular maintenance intervals.
The following is recommended however:
1) a normal cleaning of the barrel after use;
2) periodically clean powder or foreign residues from the trigger
assembly (trigger, hammer, etc.), and then lubricate them;
3) disassemble, clean and lubricate the bolt group;
4) according to the ammunition type used, periodically dismantle
and clean the gas cylinders and gas cylinder pistons.
NB: the gas system must not be lubricated.

I like the part where is says Benelli shotguns do not require any particular maintenance intervals. I suspect that this is the reason the Marine Corps use them over in the sand box.

Richard

Big Bird
10-27-2011, 21:37
Firearm cleaning
Because of their construction simplicity and correct choice of materials,
Benelli shotguns do not require any particular maintenance intervals.
The following is recommended however:
1) a normal cleaning of the barrel after use;
2) periodically clean powder or foreign residues from the trigger
assembly (trigger, hammer, etc.), and then lubricate them;
3) disassemble, clean and lubricate the bolt group;
4) according to the ammunition type used, periodically dismantle
and clean the gas cylinders and gas cylinder pistons.
NB: the gas system must not be lubricated.

I like the part where is says Benelli shotguns do not require any particular maintenance intervals. I suspect that this is the reason the Marine Corps use them over in the sand box.

Richard



I don't have an M4 but the gas system is unique in design compared to most any other semi-auto. Its a short piston design and is very clean running. Of course its also got a back-up pump capability too.

Of course all the other Benellis are inertia driven guns and have the advantage of being supremely simple and VERY clean running guns. I've had my Benelli hunting guns so covered in mud and full of barley and rice straw it took a garden hose to clean them off enough to even begin to clean it with solvent and a rag. Benelli's also have chrome lined bores which has several advantages including corrosion protection. They really take alot of abuse and keep running. I've hunted with my guns in 15 below temps and I've hunted with them on hot steamy days in the dove field. Nothing phases it.

Alaskapopo
10-27-2011, 21:48
I don't have an M4 but the gas system is unique in design compared to most any other semi-auto. Its a short piston design and is very clean running. Of course its also got a back-up pump capability too.Of course all the other Benellis are inertia driven guns and have the advantage of being supremely simple and VERY clean running guns. I've had my Benelli hunting guns so covered in mud and full of barley and rice straw it took a garden hose to clean them off enough to even begin to clean it with solvent and a rag. Benelli's also have chrome lined bores which has several advantages including corrosion protection. They really take alot of abuse and keep running. I've hunted with my guns in 15 below temps and I've hunted with them on hot steamy days in the dove field. Nothing phases it.

Actually only the Benelli M3 is a pump and an auto. The other Benelli's like the M1, M2 and M4 are only semi auto.
Pat

DFin
10-28-2011, 08:12
I can aim & fire my 930 SPX much faster than I can cycle, aim and fire my pump action guns (870, 500, 590.) However there are many shotgunners who can cycle their pump action guns very fast.

7677
10-28-2011, 08:34
I know what the factory claims and there is the actual use. Marines are known for being clean freaks when it comes to their weapons even worse then the army. When I spoke of neglect, I was talking about the amount of time they spend mounted in vehicle used in qualifications without being cleaned. A local department in my area switched from 870s to benelli M1s only to switch back to 870s 5 years later. Like big bird I have shot my M1 in the mud and foul weather without any problems and this makes me scratch my head but I was told it was due to improper maintenance that caused most of the problems. I have shot at least 500rds between cleanings and the gun was not really that dirty but there has been other times I've had to completely break it down and hose it out to remove the mud. My M1 held its own in the swamp match and caused me to rethink the reliability of the semi autos as being just as reliable as the pump guns which has lead me to purchase the M4.

My agency is also in the process of selecting new shotguns and we are going to test the M2 and the M4 as well as the Remington's latest gas gun to our scattergun border patrol 870s. With unlimited ammunition we'll see which gun craps out first in various conditions.

Z71bill
10-28-2011, 20:59
The main thing that will give both guns problems is the magazine spring will eventually weaken.
Pat

+1

100% Correct -

If left fully loaded for about 175 years the spring may get weak. :tongueout:

Z71bill
10-28-2011, 21:20
Stating a semi-auto is faster then a pump is misleading to many readers. If you are talking about just pulling the trigger and making noise, then yes. However, I and many other shooters, some who are posting on this thread, are as fast and accurate with a pump as you guys are with your semi-autos. When hits count, I shoot my 870 as fast as my 11-87P.

I see a lot on these blogs from guys that have never had to rely on one of these weapons in the line of duty. Easy to speculate on all this mess but when it is a real probability that the weapon you have is going to see you come home from work, well, you get serious about what is in your hands.

I hunted ducks & geese over decoys - with a pump action 12 gauge.

I could work the action of a pump in less time that it took me to get on the next target - so I don't think it matters as far as my time between shots.

Not sure hunting ducks is the same as a SD situation - ducks were never shooting back. :cool:

I had a friend with a semi auto challenged me to a shoot out -

We each took 5 cans - put them in a line about 20 yards out

1,2,3 GO - to see who could shoot all 5 cans first.

I won the first round - he missed a can

I won the second round

He won the third - my arm was getting tired! :rofl:

It was close every time.

So based on this extensive test - a pump is faster 2 out of 3. :upeyes:

That was a long time ago - I know I have slowed down -

The last shotgun I bought was a semi auto 20 gauge- it will be my wife's HD gun - and maybe someday when I am over 65 - it will be my first choice.

Novocaine
10-28-2011, 22:00
There will always be a group of guys out there looking for an idiot proof weapon instead of becoming proficient.

Proficient at what? Shooting stationary targets?

Real men can become proficient in using knife point to drive the screws. I'll take a screwdriver.

TexasGlockster
10-28-2011, 22:04
The last shotgun I bought was a semi auto 20 gauge- it will be my wife's HD gun - and maybe someday when I am over 65 - it will be my first choice.

What brand model did you get? Mas Ayoob from the self-defense forum strongly suggests 20 gauge semis for home defense but I haven't found that many to serve as a point of research.

Alaskapopo
10-28-2011, 22:33
+1

100% Correct -

If left fully loaded for about 175 years the spring may get weak. :tongueout:

Not quite. I have to put another spring in one of my officers 870's that is getting weak. Its only been in there for about 2 years. When you keep the mags fully loaded I have had the springs get weak to the point they would not feed the last few rounds in just 1 year of being left loaded in the most extreme case. But then again I live in the real world not in a academic one.
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-28-2011, 22:36
Proficient at what? Shooting stationary targets?

Real men can become proficient in using knife point to drive the screws. I'll take a screwdriver.

Good point. There is also a group of people who cling to old technology and shun the new even when it proves clearly superior. This is even more the case when said people make their living customizing the old technology.
Pat

Bello
10-28-2011, 23:03
ID Roll for semi although i have 6 benelli shotguns 2 are pumps... SAFE QUEENS!

Z71bill
10-29-2011, 07:47
What brand model did you get? Mas Ayoob from the self-defense forum strongly suggests 20 gauge semis for home defense but I haven't found that many to serve as a point of research.

I really wanted the youth model Mossberg - shorter stock - very light -

I looked all over - local & online - waited over a month - still couldn't find one -

I found an Escort youth model 20 gauge semi auto at Academy sports - it was on sale for $259 so I took a chance (IIRC the Mossberg was a little over $400).

22 inch barrel - came with 3 chokes - shoots any ammo - even cheapo Walmart bird shot - without complaint.

So far it has been a good gun. But if I could have found the Mossberg I would have bought it.

Pictured with my 870 18.5" barrel - for comparison.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r128/z71bill/gun%20pics/P1000180.jpg

TexasGlockster
10-29-2011, 07:59
At your suggestion I went looking at the Mossberg shotguns for a 20 gauge semi. I didn't find a youth version of their auto loader but I did find the SA-20 Tactical. I this what you were talking about?

Z71bill
10-29-2011, 08:03
Not quite. I have to put another spring in one of my officers 870's that is getting weak. Its only been in there for about 2 years. When you keep the mags fully loaded I have had the springs get weak to the point they would not feed the last few rounds in just 1 year of being left loaded in the most extreme case. But then again I live in the real world not in a academic one.
Pat

Anything is possible - but it sounds like you have a batch of defective springs.

What springs are you using?

IMHO the standard Remington springs are crap - first thing I did was replace it - I think Remington uses the same spring in both 12 & 20 gauge 870.

Get yourself some Wolff XP shotgun mag springs -

I just bought a 10 pack from Midway for ~$25 - should last me the rest of my life.

If I had a gun that developed a feeding problem with a 1 year old spring - I would be making sure that it didn't have some other issue - like a dirty mag tube, burr - or maybe a deformed follower.

A new spring could "solve" the feeding problem - but you could still have other issues.

Course if you have any doubt about a $3 spring - you replace it.

Z71bill
10-29-2011, 08:14
At your suggestion I went looking at the Mossberg shotguns for a 20 gauge semi. I didn't find a youth version of their auto loader but I did find the SA-20 Tactical. I this what you were talking about?

I don't know about this specific gun I was looking for a youth model

Mossberg uses the term -Bantam for a youth gun.

The only thing I don't like amount Mossberg is they seem to have a 14" LOP as standard. 14" is just too long for me.

Mossberg has a good web site.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=37&display=specs

Buds has the model I was trying to locate - in stock - $390.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/439/products_id/54549

:wavey:

eracer
10-29-2011, 08:28
More moving parts, more for Mr. Murphy to screw with. That alone tells you a pump is more reliable then any sem-auto. Your going to get so many different answers that this entire thread is going to be useless to you. You asked the right questions and can figure out the answer with common sence.Trivia question: Which has more moving parts, a Lorcin L9MM, or a S&W 686? (It's the revolver...)

Followup question: Which is more reliable? (Again, the revolver...)

You can't claim that because a device has more moving parts that it's inherently less reliable. I'll match my 1201FP up against any other shotgun for reliability. Is it the best choice for HD? Actually, I'm not sure. I'm faster with it than I am with an 870, and it's got a terrific tactical reload capability.

On the other hand, having an inertial action means I can't throw a bunch of tactical accessories on it without severely degrading its reliability. Nor can I reliably shoot really light loads (helpful for extended practice sessions...)

The point is: Common sense is not a substitute for empirical knowledge (or even personal preference.)

TexasGlockster
10-29-2011, 09:51
On the other hand, having an inertial action means I can't throw a bunch of tactical accessories on it without severely degrading its reliability. Nor can I reliably shoot really light loads (helpful for extended practice sessions...)

How does this compare with gas powered shotguns? Are they subject to the same tactical accessories limitations?

Z71bill
10-29-2011, 10:02
It does depend on the shooter -

I wanted a shotgun for my wife - was thinking about a pump because of the reliability thing - but after I thought it through - I figured a semi auto would be MORE reliable for her.

The risk of a jam VS the risk of a short stroke - or just plain forgetting to pump the action - in a nasty HD situation.

I figured a softer shooting gun would be used more (wife doesn't like recoil).

So more practice with a semi was a +,

But a semi is also easier / less complicated - you aim and pull trigger - aim and pull trigger - aim and pull trigger

My wife loves to shoot her semi auto .22 cal rifle - a Marlin model 60 - normal day at the range she will go through 250-300 rounds. This really tipped the scales to the semi auto - she is use to a semi - she shoots a semi all the time. I figure if she ever does get into a HD situation that she will fall back on what she has done at the range.

So in the end it was a better choice for her.

First time I used her 20 gauge semi auto to shoot clays - I tried to pump the action after my first shot. :embarassed:

But I have to say - after shooting her semi auto - it is a nice experience. My next HD shotgun will be a semi auto.

F106 Fan
10-29-2011, 11:08
The last shotgun I bought was a semi auto 20 gauge- it will be my wife's HD gun - and maybe someday when I am over 65 - it will be my first choice.

I AM over 65 so I like the comfort of the M4. But, not to worry, I can still run the 870's. You just have to suck it up!

I agree that a 20 ga semi that is shot often enough to build confidence is far superior to a mule kicker that lives in a gun safe.

Richard

Alaskapopo
10-29-2011, 12:39
Anything is possible - but it sounds like you have a batch of defective springs.

What springs are you using?

IMHO the standard Remington springs are crap - first thing I did was replace it - I think Remington uses the same spring in both 12 & 20 gauge 870.

Get yourself some Wolff XP shotgun mag springs -

I just bought a 10 pack from Midway for ~$25 - should last me the rest of my life.

If I had a gun that developed a feeding problem with a 1 year old spring - I would be making sure that it didn't have some other issue - like a dirty mag tube, burr - or maybe a deformed follower.

A new spring could "solve" the feeding problem - but you could still have other issues.

Course if you have any doubt about a $3 spring - you replace it.

Its not a batch of defective springs as it has been on several guns of several at different times. I have noticied this all through my career being a department armorer. Its why some experts recommend downloading shotguns by 1 round. Pistol magazine springs and rifle magazine springs also need replaced from time to time.
Pat

Z71bill
10-29-2011, 13:07
Its not a batch of defective springs as it has been on several guns of several at different times. I have noticied this all through my career being a department armorer. Its why some experts recommend downloading shotguns by 1 round. Pistol magazine springs and rifle magazine springs also need replaced from time to time.
Pat

Get the Wolff springs and you will be GTG for 50 years.

A quality spring does not get weak because it is compressed - no need to load one less round.

If you need to download your shotgun magazine to protect the spring then the spring is defective.

:wavey:

Alaskapopo
10-29-2011, 13:26
Get the Wolff springs and you will be GTG for 50 years.

A quality spring does not get weak because it is compressed - no need to load one less round.

If you need to download your shotgun magazine to protect the spring then the spring is defective.

:wavey:

I have heard that theory but reality has not born it out. For starters I do use Wolf springs as replacements and they end up needing replaced later on as well. They do last longer. I have heard people say that a magazine should be able to stay compressed forever and that leaving them loaded does not cause them to weaken. But in my actual experience this has proven to be hogwash. That experience has been based on 12 years in this line of work and 10 of those as an instructor and armorer.
pat

Andrewsky
10-29-2011, 22:19
I don't really care if I'm slightly quicker with a semi-automatic shotgun than with a pump-action.

You have limited capacity, and it's unlikely you'll need to triple tap a home invader with 00 buck to stop him.

If we were talking about 5.56x45mm rifles with 30 round magazines, I'd want the semi-auto capability.

But when we're talking guns that are low capacity, very powerful, and have a spread of shot, small rate of fire differences don't mean much to me.

Alaskapopo
10-30-2011, 05:41
I don't really care if I'm slightly quicker with a semi-automatic shotgun than with a pump-action.

You have limited capacity, and it's unlikely you'll need to triple tap a home invader with 00 buck to stop him.

If we were talking about 5.56x45mm rifles with 30 round magazines, I'd want the semi-auto capability.

But when we're talking guns that are low capacity, very powerful, and have a spread of shot, small rate of fire differences don't mean much to me.

Actualy the human body can take a lot of punishment. Buckshot is a great stopper but its not a death ray and don't ever count on just one round of anything short of a nuke to stop someone. Also at the ranges you will be shooting inside your home you will not have much spread of shot as you call it. More like a fist sized pattern or smaller depending on the gun.
Here is a single buck shot round fired at 7 yards.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Shotgun%20targets/7yardsvang.jpg

Also being able to fire quicker is not just about hitting one target multiple times it can also help you engage multiple attackers quicker.
Pat

mdfd
10-30-2011, 11:57
.....Also being able to fire quicker is not just about hitting one target multiple times it can also help you engage multiple attackers quicker.
Pat

+1, this is the main advantage of semi's for me....I use the recoil energy to move from one target to the next. You can do that somewhat with a pump and transition to your next target as part of your stroke, but it is not nearly as fast (at least for me)...

Alot of debate over which is preferred, and much of the input is anecdotal. IMHO, I have both pump and semi and am comfortable with both. Just like anything else, it really is what you invest yourself into to and be proficient at....I would probably grab the semi first just b/c of personal preference...FWIW, I have a Moss 590 and a Moss 930 SPX.

Buffering
10-30-2011, 12:43
Yesterday I took a 1 day shotgun class with 19 other students. The guns were about 3/4 pumps (Rem/Mossy) and the semis were Benellis and 1100/11-87s.

The guns that choked were the semis. The pumps worked without any problems. I busted the circuit in a Surefire forend light shooting a lot of slugs and full power buckshot so it was a tough day on weapons.

I'd use a semi where they keep score but a pump where they don't.

Alaskapopo
10-30-2011, 13:41
Yesterday I took a 1 day shotgun class with 19 other students. The guns were about 3/4 pumps (Rem/Mossy) and the semis were Benellis and 1100/11-87s.

The guns that choked were the semis. The pumps worked without any problems. I busted the circuit in a Surefire forend light shooting a lot of slugs and full power buckshot so it was a tough day on weapons.

I'd use a semi where they keep score but a pump where they don't.

You did not mention which semi's chocked. Remingtons I have no problem believing that seen it plenty. Benelli's run and run and run unless you put some weak loads in it.
Pat

Buffering
10-30-2011, 13:49
A couple of Rems choked due to ammo (weak loads) but the guns that pooped the most was a Benelli. The shooter maintains his guns religously and after taking it apart twice, oiling it and was finally lent a fun from an instructor.

Alaskapopo
10-30-2011, 14:14
A couple of Rems choked due to ammo (weak loads) but the guns that pooped the most was a Benelli. The shooter maintains his guns religously and after taking it apart twice, oiling it and was finally lent a fun from an instructor.

Thats hard to believe. Benellies don't have to be maintained religously. I have shot my M2 so far with out cleaning. The M4 I had I only cleaned once or twice in the 5 years I owned it. The M4 made it through the military testing with flying colors. When I have ran classes I have seen shooters short stroke their pumps and I have seen mossberg pumps with extraction issues. But Benelli's run and run. The only thing that might explain what you say was a guy using weak ammo.
Pat

Buffering
10-30-2011, 14:18
In fairness, the Benelli guy said he'd been having problems with it before the class began which makes me think it's a mechanical issue. He's been looking at sending to Benelli before yesterday.

eracer
10-30-2011, 19:08
How does this compare with gas powered shotguns? Are they subject to the same tactical accessories limitations?No.

Some gas-operated shotguns use metering devices to ensure reliability across a wide variety of loads, but the energy required to operate the action is not affected by the mass of the gun.

fpgeek
11-17-2011, 00:02
Our agency had two 11-87s that broke in training. We replaced them with Remington 870s that were GSA surplus. Haven't had a failure yet. The 11-87s ended up as trade-ins to a local supplier for some G21s.

Now if I could get some Benellis from the GSA...

Magicmanmb
11-17-2011, 12:38
Give me an 870 or a Mossberg 500 or 590. 590 main reason is it already has a ghost ring rifle sight. Less money when I have it back bored. Model 500 mariner has been with me since I was allowed to pick my own. The humidity here requires marine finish on just about everything.

Nine Shooter
11-17-2011, 13:50
I think it comes down to what is likely to happen first and most often.

Mechanical breakdown or operator error? Is a hard to fix part going to break on your $1400 M4 first or will you short stroke your 870 how many times before that happens? The human is the weakest link and will likely cause a malfunction before any part breaks.

Andrewsky
11-17-2011, 14:10
I think it comes down to what is likely to happen first and most often.

Mechanical breakdown or operator error? Is a hard to fix part going to break on your $1400 M4 first or will you short stroke your 870 how many times before that happens? The human is the weakest link and will likely cause a malfunction before any part breaks.

I've had a Benelli malfunction (with full power ammo) more times than I've short-stroked an 870.:wavey:

Nine Shooter
11-17-2011, 14:37
I've had a Benelli malfunction (with full power ammo) more times than I've short-stroked an 870.:wavey:

Well then I'm sure you probably don't have a whole lot of trust for semi's.

During training at work I see a lot of high stress environment type shooting. Our 25-30 year old 870's rarely break down due to a mechanical failure, but I've seen a lot of operator induced malfunctions.

I see pumps as the revolvers of the shotgun world; they rarely break, but require a bit more technique to operate proficiently.

Everyone has different preferences. I have a personally owned Benelli M4 and a Mossberg 590A1. I rarely pick up my Mossberg anymore because frankly I'm bored with it. When I do pick it up though, I know it will work :)