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F106 Fan
10-24-2011, 12:07
The other day I ran across a load on this forum for 9mm: 3.2 gr Titegroup, Montana Gold 147 gr CMJ and 1.15 OAL.

Sounds good to me as this appears to meet the IDPA minimum power factor of 125. Initially, I will be shooting an XD 9 with a 4" barrel. I wouldn't be surprised if I needed to add 0.1 gr or so to actually get the velocity. If I decide to compete regularly, I will probably try to get in the SSP class with a G34 that I would buy for the purpose.

I understand the reason for heavy bullet/low velocity.

My LGS doesn't stock Titegroup so I'll have to order it and pay the hazmat fee. It doesn't make sense to buy just a 1# can for $25 and then pay $25 for the fee. I starts to make more sense buying 4# or even 8#. But an 8# canister will load about 17,500 rounds. Kind of a lot. The 4# would be more reasonable at 8,750 rounds. Still, that's a lot of powder if the load doesn't work out.

The question: is there any consensus that this is a reasonable load for IDPA? I know that WSF is popular but the pressure is much higher for the same velocity. I guess I could add some WSF to the order and share the fee.

Any thoughts?

Richard

mknpwr
10-24-2011, 12:26
Can't help you on the load data but can your LGS order it for you? That would save the HAZMAT fee.

PCJim
10-24-2011, 12:51
Find some other local reloaders (inquire at your local range) and place a group order/buy?

fredj338
10-24-2011, 12:53
The question: is there any consensus that this is a reasonable load for IDPA? I know that WSF is popular but the pressure is much higher for the same velocity. I guess I could add some WSF to the order and share the fee.

Any thoughts?

Richard

I am not buying the pressure readings in the Hodgdon data. While powders do change burn rate in diff calibers & bulelt choices, I am not buying that TG hits the pressure wall before WSF. It's just not been my exp.:dunno: You are right though, buying 4# of powder to save some $$ & then hate it is not saving money. There must be a local shop someplace around you that carries TG. It's quite popular for some reason I haven't figured out yet, but popular still.

F106 Fan
10-24-2011, 13:51
I am not buying the pressure readings in the Hodgdon data. While powders do change burn rate in diff calibers & bulelt choices, I am not buying that TG hits the pressure wall before WSF. It's just not been my exp.:dunno: You are right though, buying 4# of powder to save some $$ & then hate it is not saving money. There must be a local shop someplace around you that carries TG. It's quite popular for some reason I haven't figured out yet, but popular still.

My bad! I didn't notice that Titegroup has the pressure in CUP and WSF has the pressue in PSI. I should have thought about the "Maximun Loads" as being a maximum regardless of the units. Duh!

There may be gun shops in Sacramento that carry the powder but the cost of driving there will start to eat into the savings over the Hazmat fee.

So, you're preferring WSF over Titegroup? I don't really care which I buy and buying a can of both is certainly workable.

Richard

ron59
10-24-2011, 13:51
Buy 4# of the TG and 4# of the WSF. Try them both and use them both up.

I'm using TG right now. Per the IDPA Nationals Survey, it's the most popular powder used there. Some don't care for it because of the increased risk of a double charge... but as long as your careful, it works pretty good.

F106 Fan
10-24-2011, 14:55
Buying both powders isn't such a bad idea. I see that both can be used for 40 S&W as well as 45 ACP. I don't currently load 40 S&W but I do load a bunch of 45 ACP.

I use 700-X for 45 ACP. The short story is that I used to shoot a LOT of 12 gauge shotgun and it seemed reasonable to use the same powder.

I don't know that either WSF or Titegroup is a preferred powder for 40 S&W or 45 ACP but at least it is a way to use up the powder if I don't like it in 9mm.

Richard

fredj338
10-24-2011, 15:31
Buy 4# of the TG and 4# of the WSF. Try them both and use them both up.

I'm using TG right now. Per the IDPA Nationals Survey, it's the most popular powder used there. Some don't care for it because of the increased risk of a double charge... but as long as your careful, it works pretty good.

For minor loads, no doubt. TG has no place in trying to make major IMO, regardless of caliber. Then again, I am a TG hater.

WiskyT
10-24-2011, 15:36
I don't see what TG does that other fast powders don't. I use the original TG, Bullseye. I don't shoot IDPA, so I don't have to use the same powder everyone else does to come in 12th place.

I would just locate TG on the burn rate chart and pick a powder close to it that your local store doe have. The start load of any fast powder should be good enough for IDPA. You can get 850fps with AA#2, Bullseye, Red Dot, or TG and you'd never know the difference.

nastytrigger
10-24-2011, 16:12
I'm using TG currently, but it's the only powder I've ever used. Been reloading for just a couple months. I've had no issues with it, but I'm only doing 3.6gr starter loads with 124gr 9mm.

I've almost finished shooting my 500rds of Berry's plated. Almost time for more 9mm, but I think I'll start doing .45ACP next. I'm going Precision Delta for my next 9 and 45 bullet purchase.

shotgunred
10-24-2011, 17:17
Its 11th place whiskey not 12.:poke:

A little tightgroup goes a long ways. Buying 8 pounds would be a several year supply. Especially if you are using it only for its intended purpose. Light 9mm and 40 sw IDPA loads.

Look at a different store. Not all stores carry the same stuff.

WiskyT
10-24-2011, 18:23
Its 11th place whiskey not 12.:poke:

A little tightgroup goes a long ways. Buying 8 pounds would be a several year supply. Especially if you are using it only for its intended purpose. Light 9mm and 40 sw IDPA loads.

Look at a different store. Not all stores carry the same stuff.

You would have come in 10th if you used 3.8 Bullseye. 3.7 is only good for 13th.

BTW, Red Dot is VERY bulky. I haven't used any of it yet, but 3.whatever may very well fill more than half of a 9mm case.

unclebob
10-24-2011, 18:25
Its 11th place whiskey not 12.:poke:

A little tightgroup goes a long ways. Buying 8 pounds would be a several year supply. Especially if you are using it only for its intended purpose. Light 9mm and 40 sw IDPA loads.

Look at a different store. Not all stores carry the same stuff.

For me 8 pounds is only 16,000 rds. Not even a years worth.

F106 Fan
10-24-2011, 21:48
I don't see what TG does that other fast powders don't. I use the original TG, Bullseye. I don't shoot IDPA, so I don't have to use the same powder everyone else does to come in 12th place.



I have no issue with using Bullseye. I am currently using at 4.5 gr for the 115 gr bullet. I don't have chrono data just yet but it MIGHT get to 125 PF.

I don't think I have found a published load using Bullseye and the 147 gr bullet. I'll look again tomorrow. Between Hornady, Sierra, Speer and Lyman, you would think my books would have the load. Alliant deosn't show a load either.

Richard

tac_driver
10-24-2011, 22:10
I have no issue with using Bullseye. I am currently using at 4.5 gr for the 115 gr bullet. I don't have chrono data just yet but it MIGHT get to 125 PF.

I don't think I have found a published load using Bullseye and the 147 gr bullet. I'll look again tomorrow. Between Hornady, Sierra, Speer and Lyman, you would think my books would have the load. Alliant deosn't show a load either.

Richard

bullseye 3.5 bullet berry's 147gr PRN Brass Win COL 1.15 Avg Vel 908.5 PF 133
2" groups at 15yds Glock19

fredj338
10-24-2011, 22:32
You would have come in 10th if you used 3.8 Bullseye. 3.7 is only good for 13th.

BTW, Red Dot is VERY bulky. I haven't used any of it yet, but 3.whatever may very well fill more than half of a 9mm case.
Red Dot was my choice for light 45colt loads shooting CAS. It is quite bulky & pretty accurate w/ lead bullets. It runs well in the 45acp @ any sane vel/pressure level.

RowdyOne
10-25-2011, 08:11
I use 3.3-3.4 gr of TG with a 147 Berry's at 1.15 out of my Glock 34 for IDPA/Production. Gives me a 135PF. At that charge it fills just about half of the 9mm case. A double will fill it up, but not spill over.

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 09:34
Thanks for all the advice.

I have ordered some Titegroup and WSF plus I have Bullseye on hand. I have also ordered some Berry's 147 gr RN bullets. I haven't used plated bullets but I haven't used Titegroup/WSF either. I guess it will be a grand experiment.

When I was looking for powder at my LGS, I noticed that they had a G34 in stock. It was looking so forlorn; just sitting there, waiting for someone to give it a good home. They also had a G35; maybe there is a good reason to shoot 40 S&W in SSP.

Weather permitting, the local IDPA group has their monthly clinic the first Saturday of each month with matches on the first Sunday. I think I'll stop by and check it out.

Richard

unclebob
10-25-2011, 09:49
Thanks for all the advice.

I have ordered some Titegroup and WSF plus I have Bullseye on hand. I have also ordered some Berry's 147 gr RN bullets. I haven't used plated bullets but I haven't used Titegroup/WSF either. I guess it will be a grand experiment.

When I was looking for powder at my LGS, I noticed that they had a G34 in stock. It was looking so forlorn; just sitting there, waiting for someone to give it a good home. They also had a G35; maybe there is a good reason to shoot 40 S&W in SSP.

Weather permitting, the local IDPA group has their monthly clinic the first Saturday of each month with matches on the first Sunday. I think I'll stop by and check it out.

Richard

:arg:
I have never shot IDPA. But have thought about trying my hand at it. So Iím just curious why people like the G34 & G35 for IDPA. To me it seems like a G19 would be a better choice because of drawing out of a holster? What am I not seeing?

FireGuy
10-25-2011, 10:17
The longer slide means longer distance from rear to front sight. That gives me a better sight picture at distances where the front sight blade would cover the entire A zone. The recoil is also softer with less perceived muzzle rise. Time needed to get the longer slide out of holster is not a factor compared to the rest of the motions needed when drawing.

Am using the standard 3.8 gn of TG with 124 gn MG CMP in my G34. Added the tungsten rod and a 14 lb spring. Shoots greta with a PF of 130+.

Have fun at the IDPA match then try out the darkside with USPSA. :supergrin:

whatsupglock
10-25-2011, 10:31
:arg:
I have never shot IDPA. But have thought about trying my hand at it. So Iím just curious why people like the G34 & G35 for IDPA. To me it seems like a G19 would be a better choice because of drawing out of a holster? What am I not seeing?

You're not missing anything. I have shot a 19, 17, and 34 in IDPA and USPSA. The 19 handles great, but the shorter grip is a little troublesome for speed reloads. Lately, I have enjoyed shooting my gen 4 17 the best. I am not a huge believer in this sight radius argument. When you are shooting mach 2 and blasting away, I have found that the shorter 17 cycles faster, draws faster and is more balanced for me. I'm not a GM, but I'm no beginner either. A good reliable gun, good trigger, and strong fundamentals will yield much greater results than another three quarters of an inch of sight radius.

Bob Vogel, David Sevigny, Mike Hughes, and Michael Hollar are 4 GM shooters I can think of off the top of my head that have won major matches with 17 sized guns against people shooting 34 sized guns.

The only difference to me that can even be discussed is how barrel length changes the cycling/feel of the gun. My 34 feels very, very different than my 17. The 34 shoots softer and cycles slower with the exact same load in comparison to my 19 and 17.

fredj338
10-25-2011, 13:04
:arg:
I have never shot IDPA. But have thought about trying my hand at it. So I’m just curious why people like the G34 & G35 for IDPA. To me it seems like a G19 would be a better choice because of drawing out of a holster? What am I not seeing?

There is little to no speed advantage presenting the gun. The longer slide lets you shoot faster, that is where the speed adavantage is. I doubt you would gain 0.25 sec going w;/a G26 vs G34.:dunno: Your choice of cover garment will matter more to the speed of the presentation. I agree, sight radius isn't a big factor shooting inside 20yds @ multiple targets fast.

F106 Fan
10-25-2011, 14:02
:arg:
I have never shot IDPA. But have thought about trying my hand at it. So Iím just curious why people like the G34 & G35 for IDPA. To me it seems like a G19 would be a better choice because of drawing out of a holster? What am I not seeing?

IDPA is a game where scoring is based on both time and quality of hits. For example, missing a head shot is -5 points which equates to a 2-1/2 second penalty. So, would the advantage of a longer sight radius to an average shooter (or below average, in my case), be greater than the time penalty of a slower draw.

A string of fire might be as much as 18 shots with only 1 draw. There might be a couple of reloads (very SLOW reloads by IPSC standards) and movement between positions of cover. All of these add to the time, of course, but the draw is a sunk cost. It is done once per stage.

Of course the Grand Master shooters can make it work with a shorter barrel. They could throw rocks and out-score lesser shooters. I watched it on Top Shot!

The G34 barrel is 5.32" or 0.32" longer than a standard 5" 1911 model. For a fact, I wouldn't use my 4" Lightweight Commander in a match that allowed my 5" Colt Government Combat.

One of the problems with all of these 'practical' games is that they start to allow rule creep. I agree that the G34 has limited practical value. But the rules allow the weapon in the SSP class so why not use it?

If the rules said "Maximum barrel length 4.5" then the G34 would not be eligible. But they don't. They just require the gun to fit in a test box of 8-3/4" x 6" x 1-5/8" have a maximum weight of 39 oz including an empty magazine. Note that those dimensions are just a bit larger than the G34. You can bet the other competitors noticed.

The same thought process applies for the G35 which has the advantage of a much heavier bullet that allows for much lower velocity while still achieving a power factor of 125,000. The result is a BB gun in terms of recoil.

Richard

shotgunred
10-25-2011, 15:21
:arg:
I have never shot IDPA. But have thought about trying my hand at it. So Iím just curious why people like the G34 & G35 for IDPA. To me it seems like a G19 would be a better choice because of drawing out of a holster? What am I not seeing?

The 35 yard targets.
The different size glocks handle differently. I don't have a baby glock but I do have a 23, 17 and 35. I just like the 35 the best.

fredj338
10-25-2011, 15:30
HA! Grand Masters just miss faster. I shoot against one every week. He is way faster than I am but then I don't miss as much. He'll go down 30pts in 8 stgs I'll drop 8-18pts. In IDPA, you can miss a little & still beat the crap out of everyone else if yo uare fast enough. I little miss is 1/2sec. So I am trying to teach myself to go faster, ten years of CAS & 5 sec/miss make me slow down a bit. I have had to learn it's ok to miss a little, plus in most IDPA/USPSA stages, you get as many makeup shots as you want for a complete miss, not so in CAS. I'm getting there.:supergrin:
You are right though, in an 18rd min COF, the presentation means little unless you get stuck in your cover garment. The larger/heavier guns are better for competition. Look what the expert & master shooters shoot with, you won't see many being serious w/ a G26.

Japle
10-25-2011, 17:12
I've been shooting the Berry's 147 RN over 3.3gr of TG for quite a while now. I get 875-900 fps depending on the gun and a SD of around 10.

Good load and accurate in my Glocks, XDm, BHP, CZ75 SA and STI SteelMaster.

WiskyT
10-25-2011, 19:16
I have no issue with using Bullseye. I am currently using at 4.5 gr for the 115 gr bullet. I don't have chrono data just yet but it MIGHT get to 125 PF.

I don't think I have found a published load using Bullseye and the 147 gr bullet. I'll look again tomorrow. Between Hornady, Sierra, Speer and Lyman, you would think my books would have the load. Alliant deosn't show a load either.

Richard

bullseye 3.5 bullet berry's 147gr PRN Brass Win COL 1.15 Avg Vel 908.5 PF 133
2" groups at 15yds Glock19

The old powder booklets were great because they listed a given bullet with every powder. I have an old Hercules booklet that shows 4.2 BE with a 147XTP. That means that TacDriver's load is well below max.

Bogey
10-27-2011, 04:28
My bad! I didn't notice that Titegroup has the pressure in CUP and WSF has the pressue in PSI. I should have thought about the "Maximun Loads" as being a maximum regardless of the units. Duh!

There may be gun shops in Sacramento that carry the powder but the cost of driving there will start to eat into the savings over the Hazmat fee.

So, you're preferring WSF over Titegroup? I don't really care which I buy and buying a can of both is certainly workable.

Richard

I'm just about to finish off an 8# keg of TG.

My second 8# keg is on the shelf begging to be opened.

All I have used this powder for is IDPA, shooting the MG 147 out of my G17 using the exact load you posted. Another .1 grain will not hurt you at all. Pressures are next to nil in this load.

F106 Fan
10-27-2011, 09:22
I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their advice on loading the 147 gr 9mm.

It turns out that Cabela's only charges $20 for the hazmat fee and, had I waited a day, they have a $5 shipping offer. I could have save a few bucks. Nevertheless, I have WSF and Titegroup on the way.

I took the wimp way out and only bought 1# of each but that's enough for a couple of thousand rounds. I also ordered 1000 of Berry's plated 147 gr RN and I'm about to order 1000 of the Montana Gold 147 gr RN.

From Dillon, I ordered the X-Small charge bar figuring that a more fully loaded small bar would meter more accurately than a less fully loaded larger bar. We'll see... Looking at the geometry of the cavity, I'm not sure it is going to work out that way.

I expect to get started loading the 147's early next week.

Richard

fredj338
10-27-2011, 11:47
I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their advice on loading the 147 gr 9mm.

It turns out that Cabela's only charges $20 for the hazmat fee and, had I waited a day, they have a $5 shipping offer. I could have save a few bucks. Nevertheless, I have WSF and Titegroup on the way.

I took the wimp way out and only bought 1# of each but that's enough for a couple of thousand rounds. I also ordered 1000 of Berry's plated 147 gr RN and I'm about to order 1000 of the Montana Gold 147 gr RN.

From Dillon, I ordered the X-Small charge bar figuring that a more fully loaded small bar would meter more accurately than a less fully loaded larger bar. We'll see... Looking at the geometry of the cavity, I'm not sure it is going to work out that way.

I expect to get started loading the 147's early next week.

Richard

It's not wimpy, it's smart. It's foolish to buy 8# of powder & then have 7.5# of fertilizer when you don't like it. I have 3-4 1# cans of diff powders sitting around that are half empty, a small loss vs spending for 8#.
You'll find the smaller charge bar does work better w/ small charges of pistol powder, it will be more uniform, plus I am not sure you can even get the large to throw a charge much smaller than 5gr.:dunno:

craig110
10-27-2011, 15:19
I took the wimp way out and only bought 1# of each but that's enough for a couple of thousand rounds.


It's not wimpy, it's smart. It's foolish to buy 8# of powder & then have 7.5# of fertilizer when you don't like it. I have 3-4 1# cans of diff powders sitting around that are half empty, a small loss vs spending for 8#.


+many. Absolutely nothing wrong with "wimping" and buying "just" a pound to experiment with. Frankly, especially for pistol powders where a pound goes such a long way, I wish the manufacturers sold 1/4 pound sample-sized packs.

F106 Fan
10-27-2011, 15:40
It's not wimpy, it's smart. It's foolish to buy 8# of powder & then have 7.5# of fertilizer when you don't like it. I have 3-4 1# cans of diff powders sitting around that are half empty, a small loss vs spending for 8#.
You'll find the smaller charge bar does work better w/ small charges of pistol powder, it will be more uniform, plus I am not sure you can even get the large to throw a charge much smaller than 5gr.:dunno:

I have the small charge bar, I ordered the extra-small just to see how it works out. The extra-small and magnum bars don't come with the measure.

The small bar has a permanent triangular shaped opening (a minimum capacity) that gets larger at the base as the rectangular inner bar moves back. Kind of 'house' shaped with stories being added as the opening increases.

The extra-small bar is strictly a rectangular opening that can be fully closed up. I don't know how well this is going to meter. Maybe it is an improvement, maybe not.

I have given some thought to filling the opening with epoxy and fiber. I could then try to drill a round opening like the Hornady shotgun bushings but much smaller. A fixed cavity but at least it is cylindrical. So far, I am only thinking about it. I would waste a perfectly good bar but if the load is correct, an adjustable bar isn't necessary (or even desirable).

I have never convinced myself of the security of the powder adjustment on the Dillon measure. That 1/4-20 machine screw is just sitting there with nothing really securing the adjustment. Now, I don't think I have ever had an issue, it's just something I think about from time to time.

Richard

WiskyT
10-27-2011, 15:56
I have the small charge bar, I ordered the extra-small just to see how it works out. The extra-small and magnum bars don't come with the measure.

The small bar has a permanent triangular shaped opening (a minimum capacity) that gets larger at the base as the rectangular inner bar moves back. Kind of 'house' shaped with stories being added as the opening increases.

The extra-small bar is strictly a rectangular opening that can be fully closed up. I don't know how well this is going to meter. Maybe it is an improvement, maybe not.

I have given some thought to filling the opening with epoxy and fiber. I could then try to drill a round opening like the Hornady shotgun bushings but much smaller. A fixed cavity but at least it is cylindrical. So far, I am only thinking about it. I would waste a perfectly good bar but if the load is correct, an adjustable bar isn't necessary (or even desirable).

I have never convinced myself of the security of the powder adjustment on the Dillon measure. That 1/4-20 machine screw is just sitting there with nothing really securing the adjustment. Now, I don't think I have ever had an issue, it's just something I think about from time to time.

Richard

http://www.titanreloading.com/image/cache/data/Products/90429-600x600.jpg

:whistling: