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meangreenlx50
10-24-2011, 15:01
Disclaimer: Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that's not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!

With that out of the way, what does Hornady (I like the products they make, I really do) expect is going to happen with ammo that is exactly like the regular line of self defense and hunting line is used in self defense with a disclaimer like the one above. I'm not usually on the doom and gloom some lawyer is gonna get ya bandwagon, but this one seems really easy for any scumbag lawyer and the media to get on to someone about. Just throwing it out for people to chew on.:devilish:

Bren
10-24-2011, 15:13
So what? First, don't carry the Zombie Max box around with you. Second, the police don't care what kind of ammo you used. Third, if the ammo is just like the regular kind (not exploding nuclear xtreme shok), it will make no difference in a justified shooting.

Of course, if you are a nut who shoots when he shouldn't or does stupid things that lead to a shooting, the Zombie Max, your gun choice and everything else about you could be used to make you look more like a nut.

If I shot somebody and the police asked what kind of ammo I was using, I'd say Hornady.

John Rambo
10-24-2011, 15:20
"Mr. Meangreen, am I to understand that on the nite of September 5th, you thought my client Marques Hugo Santo-Domingo Jackson was, in fact, a zombie?

I repeat, Mr. Meangreen, did you think my client was a member of the walking dead risen from the grave to feast on your flesh?!

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if the glove does not fit, you must aquit! No more questions, your honor."


Yeah, that would be a memorable court case.

Glockdude1
10-24-2011, 15:22
Disclaimer: Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that's not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!

With that out of the way, what does Hornady (I like the products they make, I really do) expect is going to happen with ammo that is exactly like the regular line of self defense and hunting line is used in self defense with a disclaimer like the one above. I'm not usually on the doom and gloom some lawyer is gonna get ya bandwagon, but this one seems really easy for any scumbag lawyer and the media to get on to someone about. Just throwing it out for people to chew on.:devilish:

Nothing to "chew" on. It's called creative marketing.

:supergrin:

meangreenlx50
10-24-2011, 15:33
The topic of this ammo came up as my uncle and I drove to the range for our usual off (work) Mondays. He didn't know about it till I told him on Sat. He said he checked Midway and they were sold out. So yeah the marketing is genuis, but with all the boogie man lawyer discussions that go on I was suprised someone else at least hadn't brought this up even for some general discussion. I think that JR is in the ballpark with the possible court proceedings, but I also agree Ben it makes as much sense as being brought in to court and having your marksmanship questioned ( ie you shoot expert, marksman whatever the grading) because you didn't shoot to wound, like you can make a deadly projectile less deadly just by trying not to aim for the largest target, forget the people behind the target.

Ethereal Killer
10-24-2011, 16:04
I personally thought the disclaimer was one of the better parts of the marketing!! They made it palatable and funny and made thier legal point all in one statement. Genius if you ask me.

Glockdude1
10-24-2011, 17:21
What if Zombie Ammo was used in a Judge pistol???

(We could start a really nice Fiction book over that one! :tongueout: )

id1otbox
10-24-2011, 17:26
Good for them. Not afraid of bs.

07hemi4me
10-24-2011, 17:34
I think the Hornady Zombie ammo would be good on Lawyers.

Glockdude1
10-24-2011, 18:06
I think the Hornady Zombie ammo would be good on Lawyers.

Lawyers.

Zombies.

You would HAVE to take a head shot. No heart to shoot.

:tongueout:

writwing
10-24-2011, 18:10
So what? First, don't carry the Zombie Max box around with you. Second, the police don't care what kind of ammo you used. Third, if the ammo is just like the regular kind (not exploding nuclear xtreme shok), it will make no difference in a justified shooting.

Of course, if you are a nut who shoots when he shouldn't or does stupid things that lead to a shooting, the Zombie Max, your gun choice and everything else about you could be used to make you look more like a nut.

If I shot somebody and the police asked what kind of ammo I was using, I'd say Hornady.

The police may not care but a prosecutor would. A justified shooting is in the eye of the beholder. I know of one chief prosecutor that does not believe in the right to carry and she is free to do as she wishes. While she may not attack the 2nd outright, she does make it tough for gun owners who are brought to her district.

jellis11
10-24-2011, 18:36
If I shot somebody and the police asked what kind of ammo I was using, I'd say Hornady.

lol exactly!

Although I'm sure someone would post about the exact zombie max brain destroyer 55gr kind online 23 minutes later. :supergrin:

vafish
10-25-2011, 04:50
It's a novelty item. Why would you carry it for self defense?

RevToTheRedline
10-25-2011, 04:55
My question is, I wonder if big/small or any local gun shops will be carrying it.. I'd kinda like a box or two just a keepsake for the box art.

Jake Starr
10-25-2011, 04:59
It's a novelty item.

Exactly. So buy some now because it will be a limited run and later more people will want to buy it just for the novelty of it.

HexHead
10-25-2011, 05:41
First of all, I think all this zombie nonsense is just plain dumb. I'm amazed a company like Hornady would even be connected to it.

Master_Blaster1911
10-25-2011, 07:41
Bogeymen everywhere.

Psssst, the absolute garanteed 100% certain means to NOT being prosecutied for shooting someone is to not shoot someone.

Soooo... don't carry, don't own guns. Never be near guns.

For those who worry about being persecuted by an anti-2A prosecutor on this board... when was the last time you read your statutes on legal use of force? When was the last time you practiced.

Logic says having a command of the law and knowing how the shoot are much better protections against being jammed up than worrying about Zombie ammo.

Cruiser1
10-25-2011, 09:49
This past weekend Hornady had their official rolling road show set up at a local gun shop. I asked the rep about this ammo and he said that he had never heard of it. I told him that it is being promoted on the company web site. He basically told me that it was the stupidest idea that he had ever heard of coming out of the marketing dept. He also agreed with me that it could be an made an issue if the ammo was used in an actual shooting justified or not.

Brian Lee
10-25-2011, 10:12
I don't see any serious legal issue here because nobody will ever go to court with any kind of valid legal argument that successfully proves exactly what a zombie really is, whether they exist, or whether zombies truly represent an actual threat to anyone. Same would apply if they made anti-werewolf ammo or "anti creature-from-the-black-lagoon" ammo.

But of course if they started selling "Witch Killer" ammo, then the ACLU would have already filed a class action suit on behalf of thousands of Wiccans & Pagans, since there really are people who call themselves witches, and it wouldn't matter that they can't even prove they really are witches, nor would it matter that there is really no set legal definition of just what a witch is. Hornady would be accused of trying to exterminate a religious group that actually exists and uses the name.

Anyone care to join me in the establishment of the Church of the Zombies? We'll sue and get rich!!:rofl:

Lampshade
10-25-2011, 12:07
Logic says having a command of the law and knowing how the shoot are much better protections against being jammed up than worrying about Zombie ammo.

Sure, but logic also dictates that when the stakes are as high as they are in the aftermath of a shooting, it makes sense to be informed about all possibly relevant issues.

Would I use a novelty ammo for carry that specifically stated it is not to be used against people? Hell no.

Just like a "Punisher" backplate doesn't make a legal self defense shooting illegal, it is certainly something a prosecuting attorney can bring up and use to bias a jury against a shooter if things do go to trial.

A "jury of your peers" doesn't mean 12 Glock Talk members.

Lampshade
10-25-2011, 12:10
So what? First, don't carry the Zombie Max box around with you. Second, the police don't care what kind of ammo you used.

As somebody pointed out, its not about what the police think, its about what a DA or prosecuting attorney think.


Third, if the ammo is just like the regular kind (not exploding nuclear xtreme shok), it will make no difference in a justified shooting.

It should make no difference, that doesn't mean it won't.


If I shot somebody and the police asked what kind of ammo I was using, I'd say Hornady.

I'm sure everybody would just take your word for it and nobody from forensics would bother to get specifics. :upeyes:

dosei
10-25-2011, 12:37
It's a novelty item. Why would you carry it for self defense?

My thoughts exactly. Deliberately carrying it for SD would be about as foolish as deliberately carrying a funky "Fantasy Knife" for SD. You buy 'em for fun, not real work (even though yes, they are functional items).

matt_lowry123
10-25-2011, 12:49
So is zombie ammo more dangerous than deadly black talons?

vista461
10-25-2011, 12:53
This past weekend Hornady had their official rolling road show set up at a local gun shop. I asked the rep about this ammo and he said that he had never heard of it. I told him that it is being promoted on the company web site. He basically told me that it was the stupidest idea that he had ever heard of coming out of the marketing dept. He also agreed with me that it could be an made an issue if the ammo was used in an actual shooting justified or not.

Boy that sure is a rep I'd want to have.:upeyes: One that knows nothing about what the company is promoting. Its only been talked about on every gun site I've been on and I've even gotten messages from Hornady.

John Rambo
10-25-2011, 12:56
So is zombie ammo more dangerous than deadly black talons?

Only if you're a zombie cop or a zombie surgeon.

matt_lowry123
10-25-2011, 12:57
Boy that sure is a rep I'd want to have.:upeyes: One that knows nothing about what the company is promoting. Its only been talked about on every gun site I've been on and I've even gotten messages from Hornady.

Hahahahaha no kidding!!! What a dumb ass!! He's probably just like damn near everybody else and doing as little as possible so he can get a pay check

RevToTheRedline
10-25-2011, 13:10
I just called my go to gun shop, they said they will be getting it in, and have had lots of interest in it, the guy said he will be picking up a few boxes for himself as well...

I think it's a good marketing play by Hornady, this Zombie ammo heh.

Bren
10-25-2011, 17:56
I'm sure everybody would just take your word for it and nobody from forensics would bother to get specifics. :upeyes:

Normally I'm in court as a lawyer, but the one time I did testify as a firearms expert in a friend's case, where his client claimed an (semi) accidental shooting and the evidence supported him, that is exactly what happened. I actually measured the Glock 19's trigger pull to see if it was stock, while the state's chief firearms examiner just testified (incorrectly) to Glock's offical specs (he testified that it had a 5-8 lb. trigger pull, rather than the 5 OR 8 lbs. available on a Glock 19 then). Contrary to television myth, the routine shooting case doesn't get any major forensic investigation by a team of wacky characters from the CSI lab.

That was a robbery case - most self-defense shooting cases I've seen didn't involve the gun ever going anywhere but a temporary stay in a police evidence locker, until the grand jury had heard the case, then back to the owner.

Even in a murder case, unless it becomes a major issue, the police will catalog what is on the ammo headstamps, probably bullet weight, and where all the rounds/brass are found.

Lampshade
10-25-2011, 18:27
Normally I'm in court as a lawyer, but the one time I did testify as a firearms expert in a friend's case, where his client claimed an (semi) accidental shooting and the evidence supported him, that is exactly what happened.

Fabulous.

I'd still consider it incredibly imprudent to make an assumption such that the load used will not be a factor.

A little prudence and preparation now can make a world of difference later.

The stakes are high, there is no reason not take all reasonable precautions to CYA, such as not carrying handloads or novelty ammo which explicitly states that it is not to be used against persons.


You did conveniently skip over the first two parts of my post, so I'll repeat the take home message here... just because it shouldn't make a difference, that doesn't mean it won't. Its only your freedom on the line, after all.

unclecharlie
10-25-2011, 21:07
I'm a lawyer. In fact, I'm a prosecutor. I think it's hilarious.

Worried about what us jackbooted district attorneys will do if you shoot someone with "zombie" ammo? Simple solution: don't shoot anybody with it. Actually, just don't shoot anybody. Problem solved.

Me? I'll probably buy a box or two just for the amusement factor. Why not?

-Charlie

Edit: This is not legal advice. Go hire your own lawyer if you want legal advice. I am a lawyer- I am not your lawyer.

Glockdude1
10-25-2011, 21:47
I'm a lawyer. In fact, I'm a prosecutor. I think it's hilarious.

Worried about what us jackbooted district attorneys will do if you shoot someone with "zombie" ammo? Simple solution: don't shoot anybody with it. Actually, just don't shoot anybody. Problem solved.

Me? I'll probably buy a box or two just for the amusement factor. Why not?

-Charlie

Edit: This is not legal advice. Go hire your own lawyer if you want legal advice. I am a lawyer- I am not your lawyer.

I have to ask, anyone ever charged with a 922r violation?

:cool:

Master_Blaster1911
10-25-2011, 22:24
Sure, but logic also dictates that when the stakes are as high as they are in the aftermath of a shooting, it makes sense to be informed about all possibly relevant issues.

Would I use a novelty ammo for carry that specifically stated it is not to be used against people? Hell no.

Just like a "Punisher" backplate doesn't make a legal self defense shooting illegal, it is certainly something a prosecuting attorney can bring up and use to bias a jury against a shooter if things do go to trial.

A "jury of your peers" doesn't mean 12 Glock Talk members.

So when was the last time you read your state statutes?

Lampshade
10-25-2011, 22:52
So when was the last time you read your state statutes?

Very recently.

Having a grasp on all the other factors besides mere statutory authority that potentially come into play in the aftermath of a SD shooting is part of being an informed gun owner.

So, did you have something of relevance to contribute, or was questioning my knowledge the extent of your rebuttal?

johnson8861
10-26-2011, 00:23
If Z-max ammo came in 10mm, and you shot a zombie, would all zombies cease to exist?

voyager4520
10-26-2011, 04:04
The disclaimer is exactly that, removing themselves from any liability involved in "Zombie" ammo being used in self-defense.

I wouldn't hesitate to use Zombie ammo for self-defense but it wouldn't be my preference. If a prosecutor tried to paint someone as a psycho for using it in self-defense all they'd have to do is explain that it's the same bullet design used in the Hornady Critical Defense line but has a different color piece of plastic in the hollow point cavity, has a brass case instead of nickel plated, and is loaded to slower velocities.

Of course you'd still be taking your chances with a jury filled with people who've probably never even touched a firearm.

Master_Blaster1911
10-26-2011, 07:01
Very recently.

Having a grasp on all the other factors besides mere statutory authority that potentially come into play in the aftermath of a SD shooting is part of being an informed gun owner.

So, did you have something of relevance to contribute, or was questioning my knowledge the extent of your rebuttal?

Extent of my rebuttal? You are unknown to me and therefor largely unimportant to me. If you think YOU are the focus of posts you are quite mistaken. You directly quoted me thereby allowing me to post further on what I believe is the real lessons this thread should open our eyes too

I find it funny that people invest so much energy in worrying about things so very unimportant to whether or not they will be criminally charged and fail to hammer on the things which so obviously play a part in whether they will be arrested following a shooting.

The list of these almost unimportant things is long and include wearing slogan on shirts, stylized grips, shooting a 10mm, hollowpoints, attending training, not attending training, having night-sights, lights, lazers, lightened trigger, and prolly more. Now it's Zombie ammo. Oh lordy!

People then argue these things as if their reputation in HS depended on it.

We certainly seem to lack discussion on how important a thorough understanding of the laws which justify the otherwise criminal act of shooting someone. If someone really wants to invest wisely in avoiding criminal prosecution for a defensive shooting they should worry about this first.

Then there is the concern over raw shooting skill. In my state there is no protection for injury to innocent third parties. No matter the justification in shooting Herman Homeinvader, miss and shoot Neighbor Nancy through her window and things are bleak.

Regardless of innocent third parties, people discuss all these other things like they really have as much chance in resulting in prosecution in and of themselves as improperly applying the laws of justification.

I swear some folk actually believe that they will be sleeping in their bed when awoken by a home invader with a machette who kicked in their front door. They will shoot said home invader with their spouse as only witness and a shooting scene which fully supports their rendition of events but will find themselves prosecuted because they had Zombie Max ammo in their gun. :rofl:

When we actually look at cases where these other things were (and sometimes never have been) used against a "shooter." We see messed up situations- unarmed attackers, shooters who fled the scene, alcohol use, and more.

So I will never have punisher grips or wear a "kill 'em , let God sort 'em out," out of taste preference. I won't own a 10mm unless I win the lottery. And I won't worry about these as impacting my post shooting chance of being prosecuted wrongly until I memorize the justification statutes and am the best shooter on the planet... which means never.

Those things won't turn a justified shooting into a criminal event and the chances they would in the eyes of a prosecutor aren't significant enough to warrant my worry.

This isn't about you, Lampshade.

Glockdude1
10-26-2011, 07:05
If Z-max ammo came in 10mm, and you shot a zombie, would all zombies cease to exist?

10mm Z-max ammo would come in 1 round boxes?????

:rofl: __ :tongueout:

Lampshade
10-26-2011, 07:31
I find it funny that people invest so much energy in worrying about things so very unimportant to whether or not they will be criminally charged and fail to hammer on the things which so obviously play a part in whether they will be arrested following a shooting.

Obviously having a firm grasp on one's statutory authority is the number 1 way to stay out of legal trouble, and that is where people should devote the majority of their energy.

That doesn't make it logical to completely disregard other potential factors.


The list of these almost unimportant things is long and include wearing slogan on shirts, stylized grips, shooting a 10mm, hollowpoints, attending training, not attending training, having night-sights, lights, lazers, lightened trigger, and prolly more. Now it's Zombie ammo. Oh lordy!

While we may believe that these are ultimately unimportant, the simple fact is, factors such as these do sometimes become relevant.

That's just a fact, and one does a disservice to themselves by ignoring it.



We certainly seem to lack discussion on how important a thorough understanding of the laws which justify the otherwise criminal act of shooting someone. If someone really wants to invest wisely in avoiding criminal prosecution for a defensive shooting they should worry about this first.

Completely agreed, basic statutory understanding is priority number one.



Regardless of innocent third parties, people discuss all these other things like they really have as much chance in resulting in prosecution in and of themselves as improperly applying the laws of justification.

Clearly they are peripheral issues, yes.

Considering the gravity of the situation, however, they are still worth a level of examination.


Those things won't turn a justified shooting into a criminal event and the chances they would in the eyes of a prosecutor aren't significant enough to warrant my worry.

They don't turn a good shoot into a bad shoot, no. What they do do is provide ammunition to a prosecutor in the event that your good shoot ends up at trial anyway.

You're free to disagree of course, as you apparently do, but you ignore the advice and practical experience of seasoned expert witnesses such as Massad Ayoob, who has seen a litany of so called "non factors" come into play at trial.

Master_Blaster1911
10-26-2011, 09:38
Obviously having a firm grasp on one's statutory authority is the number 1 way to stay out of legal trouble, and that is where people should devote the majority of their energy.

That doesn't make it logical to completely disregard other potential factors.


I did not ever say completely disregard.

While we may believe that these are ultimately unimportant, the simple fact is, factors such as these do sometimes become relevant.

That's just a fact, and one does a disservice to themselves by ignoring it.

Didn't say ignore either. When and how they become relevant is the real core of my post.



Completely agreed, basic statutory understanding is priority number one.

Clearly they are peripheral issues, yes.

Considering the gravity of the situation, however, they are still worth a level of examination.

Yes, but to what level is what I am getting at. I was observing that on these and other boards these "things" get far more attention than what they deserve. I think it falls into the category of, "look how smart I am," discussions. I'm not saying this is what you are doing. But if we both (and I presume most of us for that matter) agree that a thorough undestanding of the laws is the number one means by which to avoid criminal prosecution in a use of force situation, then why do these things of much less concern seem to occupy more of our time in carry issues than calls to our peers to go read the statutes, again, today...

OK, I guess I'm guilty of this too... :embarassed:

Everyone. Go read your statutes right now. Print them off. Highlight the things which justify use of force and the exceptions.



They don't turn a good shoot into a bad shoot, no. What they do do is provide ammunition to a prosecutor in the event that your good shoot ends up at trial anyway.

More like ammunition to use against you when you are wrong about pulling the trigger- when your judgement was so poor that you shot when you weren't justified.

Which would be a valid argument I'd consider and not argue. Whether it's the chicken or the egg matters little- putting punisher grips or using wearing the, "kill 'em all" shirt speaks more to a person's judgement (and taste), than to if your shooting was justified and if you will be prosecuted.

Could this lead a prosecutor to look disfavorable towards the person. Yes, maybe.

Could this lead a prosecutor to agree with a "I don't like civilians carrying guns detective?" Yes, maybe. (They exist, more so in some areas, less so than others, this is not a cop bashing thing)

Could this lead a prosecutor to charge you in your situation over a person who didn't have the grips or shirt? Yes, maybe.

But when evaluating what is most likely to move a prosecutor to file criminal charges we have these maybe's and we have some "near certains" (I'd say "will," but nothing is certain).

At the top of the list of the "near certains" is being wrong about justified use of force. When you shoot someone for stealing your newspaper when that does not justify use of deadly force i your state; it is near certain you will be charged. Now you have to worry about your death head grips.


You're free to disagree of course, as you apparently do, but you ignore the advice and practical experience of seasoned expert witnesses such as Massad Ayoob, who has seen a litany of so called "non factors" come into play at trial.

It appears we agree more than we disagree, just not that I am saying these are non-factors. I'm saying they don't carry the weight and get far more discussion than the things far more likely to cause us woe.

On another topic- I suspect most advise from lawyers should come with conflict of interest warnings akin to, "My advise is most likely to result in you needing more of my advise at a fee." But, that's for another thread. :wavey:

Lampshade
10-26-2011, 09:47
It appears we agree more than we disagree

Agreed, lol.

spd707
04-01-2012, 14:12
I am only going to use mine during the Zombie Apocalypse. You have to make sure they don't eat your brains! :eat:

:rofl:

steveksux
04-01-2012, 14:30
Way to bump and old thread! Soomeone has to say it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Galt38/zombie_thread.jpg

And on April Fools day, I was sure the Zombie ammo was a joke... :rofl:

Randy

SCmasterblaster
04-01-2012, 15:10
I have good ammo for zombies - 9mmP 115gr JHP +p+ - 1400 FPS out of my G17Gen3.

vtjetboy
04-03-2012, 15:03
I would not by it or use it. There are too many fine rounds commercially availible to even bother with novelties like this. I believe the Z-Max ammo is the same as the critical defense load with the polymer in the hollow point bright green instead of red

SpringerTGO
04-03-2012, 16:28
My concern about using Zombie ammo is if I shoot a Zombie and can't prove self defense. Say a Zombie is walking through the neighborhood (wearing a hoodie and carrying skiddles), I follow it, call the police, etc. and I end up shooting it without any witness to say it attacked me.
A good DA could say I went out into my neighborhood, armed with ammo specifically designed to kill zombies. Without witnesses to say it was self defense, I have no doubt there would be mass zombie protests, and I would end up getting prosecuted.

I'll stick with my Federal HST's.

robhic
04-03-2012, 17:00
The "Zombie" name and whatever aside, the Zombie Max ammo is just Hornady FTX 115 gr. JHP ammo with a little green rubber filler instead of the red rubber filler in the FTX style. Same bullet (I think...) different color. No biggie but marketing.