Man injured at my gun range. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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norton
10-25-2011, 14:58
Quote from sheriffs deputy in paper " He was using some high primer ammo and the follower hit the primer, blew the barrel out".
Thankfully he has non life threatening injuries.

That's all I know.

My guess-could have been a squib load that plugged the barrel, and he followed with a second shot.
Or I suppose it could have been a high primer.
This was Cowboy shoot weekend at the range, so there is a good possibility he was shooting lever action.

What do ya think? What can we learn from this?

fredj338
10-25-2011, 15:14
Well, little since we don't really know what happened. All kinds of things can go wrong w/ ammo in diff guns types. A lever gun can't to my knowledge fire out of battery like some semiautos, so I doubt the high primer thing. I have seen squibs, big problem w/ CAS guys loading bunnyfart loads. Then there is the RN bullet in a tubular mag detonating a primer, lots of things can go wrong. With out specifics, it all speculation.

norton
10-25-2011, 15:44
Yes but speculation is so much fun.
I doubt its round nose bullets. Do they allow them when shooting steel?

norton
10-25-2011, 15:47
I re read the article and realized the deputy said the shooters finger wasnt on the trigger when it "exploded". I assume they got this from the victim, but its hard to believe in a state of shock he would have know this.

Havok941
10-25-2011, 15:53
I'm kinda with fred on this....without any real information we can't really speculate how to avoid this unknown situation.

ArcAngel
10-25-2011, 15:55
What we can learn is simple. Obviously he was shooting a Glock .40 that KB'd!

Probably had the clip in upside down and was shooting through a conversion barrel (.40 s&w to 9mm back to .40 s&w)

unclebob
10-25-2011, 16:44
What we can learn is simple. Obviously he was shooting a Glock .40 that KB'd!

Probably had the clip in upside down and was shooting through a conversion barrel (.40 s&w to 9mm back to .40 s&w)

And you forgot he was using Tight Group. And he was using a progressive press.

Javelin
10-25-2011, 16:49
Was it a 10mm?

:rofl:

Just1More
10-25-2011, 16:54
Don't shoot reloads....that's what I learned.

Zombie Steve
10-25-2011, 17:06
I re read the article and realized the deputy said the shooters finger wasnt on the trigger when it "exploded". I assume they got this from the victim, but its hard to believe in a state of shock he would have know this.

It just went off!!!!!!!!

My favorite excuse!

cysoto
10-25-2011, 17:13
Don't shoot reloads....that's what I learned.

I wish I could afford to just shoot factory ammo... :crying:

samurairabbi
10-25-2011, 17:18
And you forgot he was using Tight Group. And he was using a progressive press.

... and he probably was trying to go with resized Berdan-primed aluminum Blazer casings! I mean, reloading boxer primers is for wimps!

fredj338
10-25-2011, 17:22
Don't shoot reloads....that's what I learned.

Then you learned nothing.:upeyes: Nothing wrong w/ shoot properly prepared handloads, nothing.
Have you ever heard someone that had an AD tell you anything but "I don't know how that happened". I am sure his finger hit the trigger, I am 90% sure it was operater error, almost always is. Either the reload was bad or he did something he wasn't supposed to while shooting.:dunno:

PhantomF4E
10-25-2011, 17:34
99% operator error 1% mechanical failure . Roll the dice on this one ......

SJ 40
10-25-2011, 18:18
Yes but speculation is so much fun.
I doubt its round nose bullets. Do they allow them when shooting steel?Yes round nosed flat point lead bullets are the norm for most lever action rifles on CAS steel.
If it was a1860 Henry rifle replica,one must use care when loading the magazine tube,not to let the follower slip thus the chance of impacting the primers of each round loaded and one heck of a kaboom.
Another common occurrence with tuned CAS rifles is lightened firing pin springs, to function with the lightened main springs thus the use of Federal primers. Not to mention the fad of removal of the lever safety in the 1873 or welding up the trigger/sear allowing them to fire out of battery. Any number of things could occur and we do not have enough facts to guess but folks like to let their minds run wild so the above facts within CAS are food for the fire. SJ 40

norton
10-25-2011, 18:58
Sometime this week I will get to the local gun shop. I'm sure they know what happened. I'm still guessing bunny fart or squib round stuck in the barrel.

GioaJack
10-25-2011, 19:00
If I'm not mistaken, it was a police officer who gave the statement to the press and I have read on the internet, therefor it must be true, that police officers know absolutely nothing about guns so one can only surmise that in reality the incident actually involved a bow, an arrow and an unfortunate child with an apple on his head.

It's either that or Norton just trying to start trouble because his wife is ignoring him.


Jack

WiskyT
10-25-2011, 19:03
Big cases, small dose of fast powder, lot's of potential to double or tripple charge a case. The upside is, it can be blamed on phantom "detonation" as that scenario has been for decades before Glocks came on to the scene.

Colorado4Wheel
10-25-2011, 19:10
I wish I could afford to just shoot factory ammo... :crying:

You can, you just don't do much of it.

bush pilot
10-25-2011, 19:19
I'm kinda with fred on this....without any real information we can't really speculate how to avoid this unknown situation.

Never let facts get in the way of a good story.

bush pilot
10-25-2011, 19:21
Was it a 10mm?

:rofl:

Couldn't have been a 10mm, it didn't kill the 3 shooters on either side of him.

vafish
10-25-2011, 20:03
.... What can we learn from this?


Men at your range shouldn't shoot guns and deputy's shouldn't talk to the press.

cysoto
10-25-2011, 21:50
You can, you just don't do much of it.

I don't know... I already had to cut back when I switched from shooting bare lead to shooting FMJ's last year. I don't know how much more I can reduce my "habit".

I tell you brother, this shooting habit is worse than crack! :supergrin:

bush pilot
10-26-2011, 00:09
I don't know... I already had to cut back when I switched from shooting bare lead to shooting FMJ's last year. I don't know how much more I can reduce my "habit".

I tell you brother, this shooting habit is worse than crack! :supergrin:

You could always dry fire and yell "bang bang".

chris in va
10-26-2011, 00:21
I personally witnessed this at our range too, just with a rental M1 Carbine. Guy came in to the shop a bloody mess, face dripping. Seems it fired out of battery and blew out the case head, pelting him with powder. Good thing he was wearing glasses. I actually saw the case as well.

robert91922
10-27-2011, 04:49
What we could learn from this?

Always wear good protective glasses on the range. Even when you don't shoot on the range some ricochet or shrapnel can fly around.
When I test some my new reloads I always wear protective gloves as well.

And also like this s**t happens:
2 years ago at IPSC match a fellow shooter was hit by a bullet's metal jacket into his wrist, it was kinda shuriken shaped. He was approx 20 yards away from big metal popper and he stood few yards behind and left from shooter who was shooting the stage that moment. Luckily, it missed his wrist artery so blood loss was not so severe. Someone drove him to hospital where surgeon pulled that bullet jacket out and sewed his wrist.
After 2 weeks he was back on next match.

Uncle Don
10-27-2011, 05:09
deputy's shouldn't talk to the press.

With that line of thought, you should never get on an airplane because at some point, somewhere, a pilot made a mistake that resulted in a crash.

norton
10-27-2011, 15:47
What we could learn from this?

Always wear good protective glasses on the range. Even when you don't shoot on the range some ricochet or shrapnel can fly around.
When I test some my new reloads I always wear protective gloves as well.

And also like this s**t happens:
2 years ago at IPSC match a fellow shooter was hit by a bullet's metal jacket into his wrist, it was kinda shuriken shaped. He was approx 20 yards away from big metal popper and he stood few yards behind and left from shooter who was shooting the stage that moment. Luckily, it missed his wrist artery so blood loss was not so severe. Someone drove him to hospital where surgeon pulled that bullet jacket out and sewed his wrist.
After 2 weeks he was back on next match.

What I learned from your story is not to shoot or be near shooters firing jacketed bullets at steel targets. But then I already knew that.

norton
11-20-2011, 18:44
Here's the scoop. The shooter was firing in a cowboy shooting event. He was using his own reloads.
While reloading the replica Henry rifle, he pulled the handle to the side of the spring loaded magazine and inserted fresh cartridges. One of the rounds apparently had a high primer. When he turned the tab on the spring to force pressure back in the magazine it stuck. While trying to clear it he accidentally hit the tab on the side of the table. The handle broke free and slammed the spring down on the loaded cartridges. The high primer round fired and in turn at least two more rounds in the magazine fired. He injured his hand, but is back at least spectating at cowboy events.

So what is there to learn? Well, one thing I am going to do from now on is make sure that when I reload my Henry Big boy in .45 Colt, I will lean the barrel down at an angle so the rounds go easily down the magazine.

If you are using a magazine fed rifle, be sure you double check your rounds for high primers. A good idea no matter what you are shooting.

WiskyT
11-20-2011, 18:50
Here's the scoop. The shooter was firing in a cowboy shooting event. He was using his own reloads.
While reloading the replica Henry rifle, he pulled the handle to the side of the spring loaded magazine and inserted fresh cartridges. One of the rounds apparently had a high primer. When he turned the tab on the spring to force pressure back in the magazine it stuck. While trying to clear it he accidentally hit the tab on the side of the table. The handle broke free and slammed the spring down on the loaded cartridges. The high primer round fired and in turn at least two more rounds in the magazine fired. He injured his hand, but is back at least spectating at cowboy events.

So what is there to learn? Well, one thing I am going to do from now on is make sure that when I reload my Henry Big boy in .45 Colt, I will lean the barrel down at an angle so the rounds go easily down the magazine.

If you are using a magazine fed rifle, be sure you double check your rounds for high primers. A good idea no matter what you are shooting.

I don't see how he would know if he had a high primer, all the evidence went kablooie. It sounds more like his mag jammed up somehow, possibly due to being a cowboy action shooter trying to get to the line on time? And when it jammed, he unjammed it with the assistance of a bench. It all went downhill from there.

It kind of reminds me of the guy who blew up his 50BMG bolt gun while un****ing it with a mallet.

norton
11-20-2011, 18:55
I don't see how he would know if he had a high primer, all the evidence went kablooie. It sounds more like his mag jammed up somehow, possibly due to being a cowboy action shooter trying to get to the line on time? And when it jammed, he unjammed it with the assistance of a bench. It all went downhill from there.

It kind of reminds me of the guy who blew up his 50BMG bolt gun while un****ing it with a mallet.

The guy who told me about the incident is a very knowledgeable reloader, and a long time cowboy shooter. He also stated the only accidents similar to this that he was personally aware of occured with the Henry replica rifle, due to its magazine arrangement.

WiskyT
11-20-2011, 19:02
The guy who told me about the incident is a very knowledgeable reloader, and a long time cowboy shooter. He also stated the only accidents similar to this that he was personally aware of occured with the Henry replica rifle, due to its magazine arrangement.

I buy that guy's theory, that the potential energy in the mag spring being suddenly released set off the rounds in the mag, I just don't know how anyone could know if a high primer was involved unless the shooter knew he had a high primer and loaded the round in the gun anyway.

Also, while not positive, I think the Big Boy has a different mag design than the "Henry" rifle. The Big Boy basically has a scaled up tube magazine like many 22RF guns whereas the "Henry" rifle has a follower that is locked open and then released from it's locking position after the mag is loaded.

I think with your gun, as long as you stay away from mallets, Belgian blocks, and Channelocks, you'll be good to go:supergrin:

MrGlock21
11-20-2011, 19:03
Don't shoot reloads....that's what I learned.

Well, I would say: Don't shoot SOMEBODY ELSE'S reloads.
On a side note, Quality Control of my reloads beats factory ammo.

norton
11-20-2011, 20:06
I buy that guy's theory, that the potential energy in the mag spring being suddenly released set off the rounds in the mag, I just don't know how anyone could know if a high primer was involved unless the shooter knew he had a high primer and loaded the round in the gun anyway.

Also, while not positive, I think the Big Boy has a different mag design than the "Henry" rifle. The Big Boy basically has a scaled up tube magazine like many 22RF guns whereas the "Henry" rifle has a follower that is locked open and then released from it's locking position after the mag is loaded.

I think with your gun, as long as you stay away from mallets, Belgian blocks, and Channelocks, you'll be good to go:supergrin:

You are correct. the big boy does not have the same magazine design, but dropping 250 grain RNFP reloads down the magazine does land with a thud. I will err on the side of caution.

dla
11-20-2011, 21:25
The problem with the "high primer" theory is that a high primer is actually much harder to set off than one properly seated.

fredj338
11-21-2011, 09:50
oops??

fredj338
11-21-2011, 09:53
Here's the scoop. The shooter was firing in a cowboy shooting event. He was using his own reloads.
While reloading the replica Henry rifle, he pulled the handle to the side of the spring loaded magazine and inserted fresh cartridges. One of the rounds apparently had a high primer. When he turned the tab on the spring to force pressure back in the magazine it stuck. While trying to clear it he accidentally hit the tab on the side of the table. The handle broke free and slammed the spring down on the loaded cartridges. The high primer round fired and in turn at least two more rounds in the magazine fired. He injured his hand, but is back at least spectating at cowboy events.

So what is there to learn? Well, one thing I am going to do from now on is make sure that when I reload my Henry Big boy in .45 Colt, I will lean the barrel down at an angle so the rounds go easily down the magazine.

If you are using a magazine fed rifle, be sure you double check your rounds for high primers. A good idea no matter what you are shooting.
I used to shoot a Henry rep in CAS. It is possible for this to happen, but a high primer is NOT likely the culprit. A high primer would generally not fire. I suspect he was shooting hard cast bullets, maybe round nose or RN w/ a small flat. That is always a recipe for KB in a lever gun magazine. Unfortunate, the Uberti reps are fine guns. I sold mine, not because it was unsafe, but I didn't really like throwing rounds down the top of the mad & having them thump against each other.

Three-Five-Seven
11-22-2011, 13:36
Lever guns are all configured in about the same way.

The firing pin travels through the bolt. It has some kind (depending on the gun) of extension that projects to the rear of the bolt. That extension is struck by the hammer, and the force is transferred to the firing pin, which transfers it to the primer. In general, the firing pin is hardened steel, while the bolt is "softer" to take the pounding of repeated explosions without fracture or failure. (i.e. bolt will sacrifice to pin).

The channel that the firing pin travels in is STEPPED so that it is wider at the rear of the bolt, but narrows to the width of the firing pin at the front. Often this constriction of the channel is machined in multiple steps. On the 1873 Winchester, for example, there are four, distinct steps in the firing pin channel within the bolt. One of these four diameters contains the firing pin return spring.

The firing pin return spring ensures that the firing pin is withdrawn fully into the bolt as the gun is levered, and at all other times except when the force of the hammer is being transferred to the primer.

However, the openings to each of these four channel constrictions can be PEENED by repeated DRY FIRING. The orifice is, thus, narrowed. In extreme cases, part of the channel can be peened to the point where it SEIZES the firing pin, or the return spring and the pin.

When this happens, the firing pin is extended as the gun is levered and the primer can be struck before the cartridge is at battery. (action shooters typically operate the lever gun with a lot of force in an effort to go fast).

This is a common enough occurrence that it has been seen many times by active gunsmiths. The lever is usually bent from such an episode, since the gun is not fully "locked up" at the time of the out-of-battery explosion and the shooter's hand acts to constrain the force of the explosion. The bent lever confirms the out-of-battery episode.

The remedy is to regularly check the firing pin and its extension for FREE TRAVEL within the bolt. Any sluggishness, or roughness, should be seen as a warning that the firing pin channel needs reaming or cleaning.

Also, dry firing lever guns thousands of times (as many action shooter do) will usually result in this problem at some time down the line.

Don't ask me how I know all this.

norton
11-22-2011, 15:36
Lever guns are all configured in about the same way.

The firing pin travels through the bolt. It has some kind (depending on the gun) of extension that projects to the rear of the bolt. That extension is struck by the hammer, and the force is transferred to the firing pin, which transfers it to the primer. In general, the firing pin is hardened steel, while the bolt is "softer" to take the pounding of repeated explosions without fracture or failure. (i.e. bolt will sacrifice to pin).

The channel that the firing pin travels in is STEPPED so that it is wider at the rear of the bolt, but narrows to the width of the firing pin at the front. Often this constriction of the channel is machined in multiple steps. On the 1873 Winchester, for example, there are four, distinct steps in the firing pin channel within the bolt. One of these four diameters contains the firing pin return spring.

The firing pin return spring ensures that the firing pin is withdrawn fully into the bolt as the gun is levered, and at all other times except when the force of the hammer is being transferred to the primer.

However, the openings to each of these four channel constrictions can be PEENED by repeated DRY FIRING. The orifice is, thus, narrowed. In extreme cases, part of the channel can be peened to the point where it SEIZES the firing pin, or the return spring and the pin.

When this happens, the firing pin is extended as the gun is levered and the primer can be struck before the cartridge is at battery. (action shooters typically operate the lever gun with a lot of force in an effort to go fast).

This is a common enough occurrence that it has been seen many times by active gunsmiths. The lever is usually bent from such an episode, since the gun is not fully "locked up" at the time of the out-of-battery explosion and the shooter's hand acts to constrain the force of the explosion. The bent lever confirms the out-of-battery episode.

The remedy is to regularly check the firing pin and its extension for FREE TRAVEL within the bolt. Any sluggishness, or roughness, should be seen as a warning that the firing pin channel needs reaming or cleaning.

Also, dry firing lever guns thousands of times (as many action shooter do) will usually result in this problem at some time down the line.

Don't ask me how I know all this.



Good info 357. In this case the a/d occurred while the shooter was reloading. the man I got the story from is a gunsmith himself, and he says he knows of more then one a/d that has occurred with this particular model during cartridge reloads, due to the design of the magazine tube spring.

Three-Five-Seven
11-22-2011, 17:43
Good info 357. In this case the a/d occurred while the shooter was reloading. the man I got the story from is a gunsmith himself, and he says he knows of more then one a/d that has occurred with this particular model during cartridge reloads, due to the design of the magazine tube spring.

That would make the gun an original Henry. The magazine follower can be "dropped" onto the cartridges in the magazine while under great spring tension. If the meplate of bullets is not wide enough, detonation can occur. The problem is unique to the original Henry design and not inherent to any other lever gun.

The problem with this particular detonation situation is that the entire magazine (10-13 rounds) tends to go off if there is an accidental release of the magazine follower.

The Henry design is considered by many to be unsafe for this reason. It is definitely a firearm for the alert expert, and not the average Joe.