Getting rid of a gun that’s a “lemon”. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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X-Centric
10-28-2011, 20:32
Here’s another “what do you think”?
Is it “ethical” and/or righteous to get rid of gun that’s faulty in one way or another without the next owner knowing about it? If we bought or acquired a gun that’s not reliable, is troublesome or is even dangerous and we told a friend or someone about it and they still wanted to buy it or you gave it to them that would be okay. But what about having a firearm with the aforementioned problems and we give it away, sell it or trade it in on another gun without letting that person or someone know of it’s history? Is this okay? How would we like it if we acquired a firearm that was problematic? What if we got a gun and after firing it we found out that we got ripped off or there was a bad accident with it? How about getting rid of a problem gun and the person who gets it next gets injured or killed by its defects or they need to use it to defend their or their loved ones lives and it doesn’t work and they get injured or killed? Allot to think about in my opinion. I ask this because three years ago I bought a Kahr PM9 that was a real lemon for me and my friends. I called and worked with Kahr and their customer service was outstanding. Long story short, after I sent the gun back 4 times they sent me a new one and it too was a lemon so Kahr sent me their best gun and I traded it even for a Glock 26. During this time of all the problems, friends were telling me to just bite the bullet, get rid of it and get something else. But I couldn’t do it. I didn’t want to pass these allegedly self defense guns on to someone else who may need it to save their life and have it fail like it did so often for me. If I did I would still be wondering about the poor slob who might have it and what might happen.

atakawow
10-28-2011, 20:37
Treat others the way you would like to be treated.

Waboom!!
10-28-2011, 20:41
I don't live by golden rule. I live by the "Gold Rule"... do unto others BEFORE they do unto you. :cool:

Cream Soda Kid
10-28-2011, 20:46
If it were someone I know, I would advise them as to what the problems are and let them make an educated decision. But I haven’t sold any guns privately.


I sold a Springfield Armory 1911 that was a lemon. I sold it to Gander Mountain, they have a policy of fixing any problems with guns they buy and they guarantee the gun for one year after purchase. So I don’t feel bad about that one. But the down side to that is Gander Mountain doesn't buy the gun for what it's truly worth. But I was just glad to get anything back for it.

HKLovingIT
10-28-2011, 20:50
I think you should try to resolve it as best you can, and if the manufacturer can't fix it or won't replace it (which I think would be rare), then you could sell it with clear conscience only with full disclosure face to face to another guy. Even though that means you'll take a hit on price. Anything else and you would be a liar and a cheat. Not to mention you might put him and his in a bad spot one day.

If you sell it to a shop I bet they would turn around and sell it to the first guy who wanted it without saying anything. Which brings up an ethical dilemma for you again. Since you know they will do this, are you not still responsible and just taking a willy-nilly way out so that you can have a "clean" conscience? I think so.

Edited to add: Of course you as the purchaser must check anything you buy, run through the usual break in, whatever that you feel is right to feel that the firearm works. But if you purchased something someone traded in that was a known (to them) lemon, you're setup to fail and pretty much got silently screwed. Now the hassle is passed to you, only you don't have the warranty.

twisty
10-28-2011, 21:20
I believe if a gun is unsafe that is different from unreliable. I cannot speak for anyone else, but if I had a gun that I knew was unsafe, I would only feel comfortable selling or trading it if I had the issue fixed by a qualified gunsmith. I just would not feel right sending an unsafe gun into the marketplace. If a gun is unreliable I will try to get it fixed. If I get it fixed and I still just don't want it, then I could still sell or trade it and not feel bad. I would also feel OK selling it or trading it to someone or a store if I knew it was still shootable but maybe not the most reliable gun ever...that one could potentially be a slippery slope, but honestly I try not to pass of a junk gun on someone without making them aware of the possibility of it having a problem. It may not be the way some people would do it, but I just can't bring myself to do something that I would consider not being totally honest. That's just me.

Ethereal Killer
10-28-2011, 21:51
for every gun there is a buyer.

it's your responsibility as a seller to inform them of the problems. be 100% up front about it and price it fairly. I promise you SOMEONE will buy the thing if you price it fairly and tell them whats up.

glockman513
10-29-2011, 01:38
A Kahr 4 times back to the factory and a 2 brand new? Sure the problem is with the gun? :whistling:

And for curiousity, why would you buy a gun for you "and your friends"?

Need more info b/c some things aren't adding up here . . .

Lampshade
10-29-2011, 06:51
And for curiousity, why would you buy a gun for you "and your friends"?


I think he was saying it wouldn't shoot well for any of them. :upeyes:

RussP
10-29-2011, 06:57
First, no, I would not sell a firearm with a known defect to anyone without telling them. A Kahr 4 times back to the factory and a 2 brand new? Sure the problem is with the gun? :whistling:

And for curiousity, why would you buy a gun for you "and your friends"?

Need more info b/c some things aren't adding up here . . .What were your and your friend's problem(s) with the Kahr? What did Kahr do to the pistol you returned?

writwing
10-29-2011, 07:53
I don't live by golden rule. I live by the "Gold Rule"... do unto others BEFORE they do unto you. :cool:

Good your you. I hope you get repaid 10 fold.

GotFour
10-29-2011, 08:00
....be interested to know just what kind of problems you were having with your Kahr. My PM9 has been 100% reliable.

LongGoneDays
10-29-2011, 08:10
A good question presented by the OP.

I sold a Glock 27 police trade in I got from Bud's. Shot it at the range with my 26 and had constant issues, as did the friend with me. Failure to eject fully, don't remember the exact problem, but had to constantly stop shooting to clear the spent shell.

I told the guy I didn't like the recoil, which was true. Maybe the gun had an issue, maybe it was the Wolf ammo I was shooting (which I refuse to put in my 26).
I felt surely he will shoot it before carrying it, so I did dump off a problem on him.

He took the same risk I took when I bought it, and the gun was fixable.

giant_pita
10-29-2011, 08:14
I have taken a torch to a $100 American Arms .22lr because it would repeatedly just decide on it's own to fire 1,2 or 3 rounds and I didn't feel it was safe for myself or anyone else. On the other side I did trade a .40 USP when I found "For me" the gun had too light of a pull in the cocked position. No mechanical defects, I just didn't feel that it was safe (after firing a round on DA, then having my finger stroke the trigger a second time sending the next round into the ceiling because that was where the gun was still pointing due to the recoil) That was the harshest recoiling .40 that I have ever shot and I have no reason why.
So getting back to the point, If I thought that the gun was mechanically deficient, I would destroy it or try and get it fixed before selling it.

themiller
10-29-2011, 08:25
If you sell it to a shop I bet they would turn around and sell it to the first guy who wanted it without saying anything. Which brings up an ethical dilemma for you again. Since you know they will do this, are you not still responsible and just taking a willy-nilly way out so that you can have a "clean" conscience? I think so.


If it is a good shop - they will fix the glitch. I bought a gun "from" another guy as he was trading it to the shop. I let them do their thing, and paid the shop's markup. They hadn't even had a chance to test fire it, but sold it to me anyway. Turns out it was a lemon - shop took care of everything including shipping it back to the manuf, test firing it when it came back, etc. Now it's my fav 44 spl :)

Just how dumb would you be to sell a freaking broken GUN to someone without telling them... Especially because said person is probably a little lite in the purse strings... Most people that have money just buy new...

Cavalry Doc
10-29-2011, 13:16
If you sell someone a faulty gun, that's not any more of a problem than your mechanic removing the catching mechanism of your seat belt. Heck, they'll probably never really need that thing in a life or death situation.

Honesty is the best policy.



I did turn in a H&R 20 guage single shot shotgun with a broken firing pin in during a gun buy-back in San Antonio. It was going to be melted down anyway. Got some nice Disney on Ice tickets.

Japle
10-29-2011, 14:45
I have a .45 Witness in the safe that I’d love to sell.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Witness.jpg
The problem is, the gun’s not reliable. It often locks the slide back with rounds still in the mag.

I’ve learned that this isn’t exactly a rare problem with these guns and EAA doesn’t have a fix for it. Their position is that the owner must have been shooting handloads (true) that were too hot (false) and it’s the owner fault. Therefore, the warranty is void and they won’t even work on the gun.

This gun is accurate and fun to shoot, right up until it starts locking the slide back for no good reason. Then it’s a PITA.

I could sell it, but I won’t pass this thing on to someone else.

BTW, I have the original ported barrel. The gun doesn't work any better with it installed.

redbaron007
10-29-2011, 14:57
If the gun was truly defective and someone wanted to purchase it, I'd sell it to them, but with full disclosure.

If the gun acted funny when I shot it but not with a buddy and I wanted to sell it, I would disclose my issue, but not make it necessarily the gun's problem.

In selling things, I have found it best to be honest and upfront. JMHO.

:wavey:

red

Warp
10-29-2011, 15:01
Here’s another “what do you think”?
Is it “ethical” and/or righteous to get rid of gun that’s faulty in one way or another without the next owner knowing about it?

In my opinion only a dishonest/deceitful person would even consider this question worthy of asking

Boot Stomper
10-29-2011, 15:14
Everything gun has a value or price. Most guns are over priced IMO.

If the gun design is not known for reliability the buyer should do their homework on that gun. I have never bought a gun and not looked it up on the internet for reviews or issues to look for.

As for the seller, it is always best to be honest and offer a fair price. Some gun reliability issues maybe something as simple as replacing the magazine.

If you have a gun with reliability issues contact the manufacturer and see what they recommend. Some manufacturers are better than others with customer problems.

smokin762
10-29-2011, 15:38
Do you keep cars around that have problems and collect them or do you take it to a dealer and trade it in for one that does not have any problems?

Usually people don’t trade in perfectly good cars.

twisty
10-29-2011, 16:12
I trade in perfectly good cars about every 18 months or so...the dealer at home loves me because I always bring in a nearly perfect car and trade it for a new one. They make money, I get another new car, everyone seems to be quite fond of the deal. Someone at home always buys my trade-in fairly quickly because they know who had it and it is just as good as a new one. So that logic doesn't always work the way you would think. I won't pass on a bad/unreliable gun to someone unless they know the whole entire history and then beg me for it. I just don't feel right. Besides used cars taken in by dealers are always given a safety inspection and they find all the faults and fix most of them before they are put on the lot for sale. At least that is how new car dealers do it. I used to be a service tech for a Ford,lincoln, mercury dealer and we made a lot of money off fixing the trade in cars before they were put on the lot. That was a fairly reputable dealership though, not all of them are.

twisty
10-29-2011, 16:27
ANY car can be fixed with the right application of parts and/or labor...it may be expensive but they can ALL be fixed. Guns are the same way. Any gun can be fixed with the right application of parts and/or labor. Just like with a car a gun is a mechanical device and with the right knowledge a person can fix it. It may have a poorly machined slide/frame/barrel or any number of small parts. Any of those can be changed or repaired. Is it cost effective with no warranty to back it up? Not always. But it can be done. I am an ASE and Ford MoCo mastertech...I have the knowledge to fix any problem with a car or light truck. Even those electrical ones that drive lesser trained technicians crazy. I don't trade cars just because it has a problem. If I like the car and it has a problem I fix it and go on to drive it and be happy. If one of my guns has a problem I fix it and keep using it. Unless I just don't want it anymore, but then I still either fix it and then sell it or sell it to someone with full disclosure.

smokin762
10-29-2011, 16:40
I trade in perfectly good cars about every 18 months or so...the dealer at home loves me because I always bring in a nearly perfect car and trade it for a new one. They make money, I get another new car, everyone seems to be quite fond of the deal. Someone at home always buys my trade-in fairly quickly because they know who had it and it is just as good as a new one. So that logic doesn't always work the way you would think. I won't pass on a bad/unreliable gun to someone unless they know the whole entire history and then beg me for it. I just don't feel right. Besides used cars taken in by dealers are always given a safety inspection and they find all the faults and fix most of them before they are put on the lot for sale. At least that is how new car dealers do it. I used to be a service tech for a Ford,lincoln, mercury dealer and we made a lot of money off fixing the trade in cars before they were put on the lot. That was a fairly reputable dealership though, not all of them are.

As I stated, people don’t usually trade in good used cars. What I didn’t say was every used car that is traded in, is a problem car.

That is nice that you take care of your cars, however some people have bought used cars that were just problematic. I am sure a reputable gun dealer looks over a used gun as best as possible also, however, like a car, unless you use it for a while, there are just some things that you will not notice.

Buying new and buying used anything is a choice. Therefore, when you buy used things, you are taking risks to begin with. Buyer Beware.

garflys
10-29-2011, 20:30
That just happened to me also with a Kahr, 380. sent it back to Kahr and they said it was fixed. I was going to sell it without firing it, so I would not know if it was fixed or not. But after a couple of days I went to the range and it was better but still not right. They gave it a new frame , extractor and a few more things. I sent an email to Davidsons were I bought the gun from. Told them how I did not trust the gun and would not sell it to someone who might have to use it to defend themselves. They were great, had me send in the gun and i bought another glock just had to make up the difference. And there was none. so Davidsons says lifetime warranty and they stand by it. I was so happy I did not sell it, would have bothered me the rest of my life.

RYT 2BER
10-29-2011, 20:40
I bought a Kahr PM9 that was a real lemon for me and my friends. I called and worked with Kahr and their customer service was outstanding. Long story short, after I sent the gun back 4 times they sent me a new one and it too was a lemon so Kahr sent me their best gun and I traded it even for a Glock 26. During this time of all the problems, friends were telling me to just bite the bullet, get rid of it and get something else.

That just happened to me also with a Kahr, 380. sent it back to Kahr and they said it was fixed. I was going to sell it without firing it, so I would not know if it was fixed or not. But after a couple of days I went to the range and it was better but still not right. They gave it a new frame , extractor and a few more things. I sent an email to Davidsons were I bought the gun from. Told them how I did not trust the gun and would not sell it to someone who might have to use it to defend themselves. They were great, had me send in the gun and i bought another glock just had to make up the difference.


Horror stories of kahrs fixed repeatedly and not getting fixed:whistling: hmm unfortunately I've lived through that with kahr before .... I haven't a clue what goes on at kahr where they take a gun "supposedly" fix it then send it back to someone just as crappy as when they first got it..

My advice .. try to get it running or disclose it, then bash the pos company all over the internet... maybe you can save someone else the same fate..

Warp
10-29-2011, 21:03
My advice: Don't buy a Kahr. Especially a polymer frame.