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beatcop
10-29-2011, 16:38
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2011/10/28/marked-miami-police-car-pulled-over-by-fhp-for-speeding/?hpt=hp_t2

Opinions?

Mayhem like Me
10-29-2011, 17:08
why yes, around here he would have been booked in for fleeing and eluding and had to post bond...


He is a pathetic excuse for a cop.

Mayhem like Me
10-29-2011, 17:10
oh and this was not just closed in GNG it was vaporized as in they removed all traces of the thread....FYI when i went to check on it it was nuked....

Morris
10-29-2011, 17:10
I would have hooked him.

steveksux
10-29-2011, 17:22
Normally I'd give a WTF award to FHP for pulling over a marked unit. But she lucked out and had a valid (IMO) beef as it turns out. Still got to wonder what she was thinking to assume there was a reason to do that.

I see some discipline in the Miami officers future. When departments are trying to juggle liability concerns on pursuits, when and whether to chase criminals at those speeds, its pretty crazy to do something like that to make an off duty gig on time. No way to justify that imo... Hope he's got a union down there, he's going to need some protection.

But what do I know, I'm not a cop. :dunno:

Randy

4949shooter
10-29-2011, 17:37
Personally I would like to see some more information. The news video clip didn't show very much.

How bad was the Miami officer's driving?

What are the trooper's notes / testimony?

Were there calls regarding the Miami officer's driving?

Why did she lock him up?

Was there alcohol involved?

What is the Miami officer's record?

steveksux
10-29-2011, 17:43
On the bright side, at least he was in full uniform, rather than topless, fishnets and a G-string. (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378058):whistling:

Randy

Bruce M
10-29-2011, 17:55
oh and this was not just closed in GNG it was vaporized as in they removed all traces of the thread....FYI when i went to check on it it was nuked....


We are on the edge of the Bermuda Triangle... not the first time something here has just completely disappeared without a trace...

ray9898
10-29-2011, 18:22
WTH??? Pathetic and lucky he didn't kill someone.

Dukeboy01
10-29-2011, 18:31
I foresee a lot of FHP troopers getting citations when they're caught speeding in Dade County. I foresee lots of Miami officers getting tickets from FHP whenever they leave Dade County. This will continue until the brass of both agencies order everybody to knock it off.

Sharky7
10-29-2011, 18:33
Need a little bit more info...

It's not unreasonable though to make a stop on the car or try to get a hold of the agency on the radio while you are behind the car, especially if the trooper thought something could really be wrong. What if an offender was able to get an officer's car and then flee the scene.

Pretty sure I would not have made an arrest though. Too little of the video though to judge. If he was just driving like a jag-off I would have had him call his boss to come to the scene and we can deal with it from there. But, with that being said - I can't recall a time I ever arrested someone just for reckless driving alone. It's usually a charge added to others such as DUI, hit and run, fleeing, etc. Most of the time I would just paper them with tickets and make sure I talk to the judge before court starts.

wrenrj1
10-29-2011, 18:36
I foresee a lot of FHP troopers getting citations when they're caught speeding in Dade County. I foresee lots of Miami officers getting tickets from FHP whenever they leave Dade County. This will continue until the brass of both agencies order everybody to knock it off.

Kinda like "Super Troopers?":rofl:

wct097
10-29-2011, 18:38
Those that wouldn't cite/pull the car.... do you not find it unusual to see a marked patrol car running 120 without lights & siren?

Sharky7
10-29-2011, 18:47
Those that wouldn't cite/pull the car.... do you not find it unusual to see a marked patrol car running 120 without lights & siren?

120 is pretty fast.

But, it's not unusual to have a police vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed without emergency lights or sirens activated. Sometimes even police vehicles out of jurisdiction. There's literally dozens of reasons and they are all legitimate, even though people like to assume whatever idea they are more biased towards in their head.

The video and article above is a pretty rare and extreme circumstance.

wct097
10-29-2011, 18:52
120 is pretty fast.

But, it's not unusual to have a police vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed without emergency lights or sirens activated. Sometimes even police vehicles out of jurisdiction. There's literally dozens of reasons and they are all legitimate, even though people like to assume whatever idea they are more biased towards in their head.

The video and article above is a pretty rare and extreme circumstance.

I think the article mentioned 120mph. Sounds like the speeding cop was a d-bag, citing being late for a non-official function as an excuse. I'm surprised he was pulled myself. Every friend I have that is an officer basically says that the only time police get ticketed/pulled are times when they're involved in an accident that can't be ignored.

Mattz
10-29-2011, 18:55
I'm a little disturbed some feel it's reasonable to stop another marked police car.... maybe it's where I came from... or where I am at, but it's unheard of. Have an issue with a car driving excessively, contact the department... I dunno...

Sharky7
10-29-2011, 18:56
I think the article mentioned 120mph. Sounds like the speeding cop was a d-bag, citing being late for a non-official function as an excuse. I'm surprised he was pulled myself. Every friend I have that is an officer basically says that the only time police get ticketed/pulled are times when they're involved in an accident that can't be ignored.

You would be surprised. First couple weeks of the academy when I first started, an academy class mate of mine lost his job for being pulled over going 90 in a 55.

Sharky7
10-29-2011, 19:00
I'm a little disturbed some feel it's reasonable to stop another marked police car.... maybe it's where I came from... or where I am at, but it's unheard of. Have an issue with a car driving excessively, contact the department... I dunno...

If you watch the video you see her come up on the car with her gun drawn. I'm thinking she thought something was really wrong and it may not be the police driving.

Morris
10-29-2011, 19:02
Explain to me how running 120 WITHOUT lights or siren is safe. It sure smells of reckless to me.

The officer was placed in handcuffs and detained in the back of the FHP cruiser while the trooper investigated. The officer was later released and cited for reckless driving.

Detained, not arrested. Looking at it again, I probably would have done the same if the situation had presented itself to me. We've had theft of uniforms, equipment and whole cars so physically detaining someone to see if they are legitimate is correct. You can claim to be anyone but unless I hear from your agency and /or see a legitimate commission card, I won't take the word of the driver. Why? Because good cops don't drive like a-holes to off duty gigs like this. Usually. I suggest that this is not the first time this officer has done this, marked or unmarked.

Mattz
10-29-2011, 19:10
You would be surprised. First couple weeks of the academy when I first started, an academy class mate of mine lost his job for being pulled over going 90 in a 55.

I'm pretty sure you and I work in the same area... I've never heard of a marked police car being stopped, nor would I ever practice it. I have, however, heard of officers calling in on officers traveling through their city driving fast... I wouldn't do either one, especially considering none of us know the reason why the unit would be doing what it is. I just don't agree with the video at all... I have no problem with the officer getting jammed up with his department for speeding for no reason, but for another police officer to take it upon themselves to stop the car, draw down on them, then pull an officer in uniform out and place them in handcuffs... no way.

mj9mm
10-29-2011, 19:18
the stop appears to have been the right decision, it's tough enough to drive the interstate today, without worrying about jerks like that on the road. people's lives were endangered for no good reason. no other way to see it.

Sharky7
10-29-2011, 19:30
I'm pretty sure you and I work in the same area... I've never heard of a marked police car being stopped, nor would I ever practice it. I have, however, heard of officers calling in on officers traveling through their city driving fast... I wouldn't do either one, especially considering none of us know the reason why the unit would be doing what it is. I just don't agree with the video at all... I have no problem with the officer getting jammed up with his department for speeding for no reason, but for another police officer to take it upon themselves to stop the car, draw down on them, then pull an officer in uniform out and place them in handcuffs... no way.

I agree with what you are saying.....I don't think anyone is saying go stop a marked car for traffic enforcement reasons. If it's a situation where they really believe the car is stolen, then you have a responsibility to try and get a hold of them on the radio and stopping it if you had to.

Mattz
10-29-2011, 19:33
I agree with what you are saying.....I don't think anyone is saying go stop a marked car for traffic enforcement reasons. If it's a situation where they really believe the car is stolen, then you have a responsibility to try and get a hold of them on the radio and stopping it if you had to.

I don't have an issue with that... although I have a hard time believing she actually suspected the vehicle was stolen... I think it was more of a "I'm a trooper, this is my highway, what does this city cop think he's doing?". And in the situation she thought it was stolen, once she made contact with the officer it should have been over right there, but she pulls him out and handcuffs him. When the officer tells her that isn't necessary, as he is no harm, she tells him that he is a criminal to her.... really? I think what she needs to realize is when someone decides they're going to knock her block off someday, most likely it won't be an FHP coming to her rescue, but one of the same city units she decided she felt it was her duty to jack up.

trdvet
10-29-2011, 19:58
sigh.......This is why we can't have nice things.

Vigilant
10-29-2011, 20:16
I think it was more of a "I'm a trooper, this is my highway, what does this city cop think he's doing?"

Or a case of chronic PMS?

packsaddle
10-29-2011, 20:35
we are (necessarily) held to a higher standard.

i say "good job".

although i think a better punishment than a citation would have been to hold him there just long enough to make him late for his off duty gig.

denn1911
10-29-2011, 20:43
This situation makes me shake my head on several accounts. I wish that we had more details regarding this incident to form better opinions.

boomhower
10-29-2011, 20:58
Not enough detail to get a real opinion but on the surface it looks like the city cop is a dick that makes the rest of us look bad and the Trooper was having a bad run of PMS.


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Mayhem like Me
10-29-2011, 21:07
Personally I would like to see some more information. The news video clip didn't show very much.

How bad was the Miami officer's driving?

What are the trooper's notes / testimony?

Were there calls regarding the Miami officer's driving?

Why did she lock him up?

Was there alcohol involved?

What is the Miami officer's record? watch the dashcam she's in pursuit of him for 5 minutes after he blows by her at 120 plus cutting across 3 lanes of traffic.. she never hooked him cite and release I would have took him for fleeing and eluding in addition to reckless. IT is that bad he's a verified Idiot..

Mayhem like Me
10-29-2011, 21:12
Or a case of chronic PMS?

seriously watch the dashcam she's the cop in this case, you will want to punch him in the face
http://www.local10.com/news/29619059/detail.html

COLOSHOOTR
10-29-2011, 22:18
seriously watch the dashcam she's the cop in this case, you will want to punch him in the face
http://www.local10.com/news/29619059/detail.html

Yes he may be an A-hole and he really needs the departments help correcting his behavior if he even gets to keep his job. But... WTF stopping a MARKED police car?!?!? Yeah his reason may have turned out to be garbage after it was all said and done but there could have been reasons to be driving fast with no equipment. I've personally had my emergency equipment fail on me (we reuse all of it so it was probably on it's 3rd or 4th car min. and had a bad wire tied to the control box that shorted it all out the stuff worked at start of shift and failed part way though) as I was trying to get to a officer calling for help. No I didn't go 120 MPH and was way more careful but yes I hauled balls with no lights and sirens since I didn't have any that worked. Does that justify it no, but did this FHP nut even consider that?


If the quote in the story is actually true she even went so far to be all high and mighty saying "You know what you are to me? You are a criminal." It was a total contempt of FHP thing plain and simple. Sure give him a ticket, call his supervisor do what needs to be done but seriously does she even know what a criminal is.... When is the last time she delt with a Domestic or handled a shooting. Probably never since she's busy pulling over marked police cars to keep her stats up. If she really thought it was stolen why the solo approach? Most stolen police cars have a pretty long line of other police cars behind them. They also go over metro net here to all agencies ASAP so thats a BS excuse. Then whats with the "Yes I'm serious" once she knows he's a Uniformed Officer as she flings the door open an orders him out to immediatly cuff him. Tell me I'm wrong that she's on a total power trip? Wonder how she treats everyone else she stops with her badge heavy attitude. F-her and I hope she never needs cover in Miami.

mrdann
10-29-2011, 23:07
Wondering out loud here.... IF you were on duty, in uniform, driving a marked patrol car, and a solo "officer" from another agency tried to stop/detain/arrest and HANDCUFF you, what would be the proper response?

collim1
10-30-2011, 00:24
Just a ticket in my state...not an arrest.

I have had the wonderful opportunity to arrest several off duty cops in my career, but in this situation I would not have made an arrest.

120mph is ridiculous though, the fastest speeder I have ever caught was 92mph. I have passed a few over 100mph, but that was rolling and no way I could turn around and catch back up.

Hack
10-30-2011, 00:42
Not an on the street cop, since I work a prison. But, if anything similar happened on my duty as say outside patrol of the prison reservation I would have called in car information to control and have them calling the street cops for assistance. If possible, provided there were lives in danger I would have even tried blocking with my vehicle and got out of the way, while ordering him to stop.

4949shooter
10-30-2011, 02:53
Wondering out loud here.... IF you were on duty, in uniform, driving a marked patrol car, and a solo "officer" from another agency tried to stop/detain/arrest and HANDCUFF you, what would be the proper response?

My response would be, "Go ahead and TRY it mother****er."

4949shooter
10-30-2011, 03:00
watch the dashcam she's in pursuit of him for 5 minutes after he blows by her at 120 plus cutting across 3 lanes of traffic.. she never hooked him cite and release I would have took him for fleeing and eluding in addition to reckless. IT is that bad he's a verified Idiot..

I agree the Miami cop was wrong, and maybe even ignorant at one point. I also think the female trooper over reacted. I can understand her approaching the stop with her gun drawn. She had enough reason to believe the patrol car may have been stolen. But once the cop apologized, I would have taken some type of action and released him. I wouldn't have locked him up and seized his weapon.

DaBigBR
10-30-2011, 04:11
Yes he may be an A-hole and he really needs the departments help correcting his behavior if he even gets to keep his job. But... WTF stopping a MARKED police car?!?!? Yeah his reason may have turned out to be garbage after it was all said and done but there could have been reasons to be driving fast with no equipment. I've personally had my emergency equipment fail on me (we reuse all of it so it was probably on it's 3rd or 4th car min. and had a bad wire tied to the control box that shorted it all out the stuff worked at start of shift and failed part way though) as I was trying to get to a officer calling for help. No I didn't go 120 MPH and was way more careful but yes I hauled balls with no lights and sirens since I didn't have any that worked. Does that justify it no, but did this FHP nut even consider that?


If the quote in the story is actually true she even went so far to be all high and mighty saying "You know what you are to me? You are a criminal." It was a total contempt of FHP thing plain and simple. Sure give him a ticket, call his supervisor do what needs to be done but seriously does she even know what a criminal is.... When is the last time she delt with a Domestic or handled a shooting. Probably never since she's busy pulling over marked police cars to keep her stats up. If she really thought it was stolen why the solo approach? Most stolen police cars have a pretty long line of other police cars behind them. They also go over metro net here to all agencies ASAP so thats a BS excuse. Then whats with the "Yes I'm serious" once she knows he's a Uniformed Officer as she flings the door open an orders him out to immediatly cuff him. Tell me I'm wrong that she's on a total power trip? Wonder how she treats everyone else she stops with her badge heavy attitude. F-her and I hope she never needs cover in Miami.

Is this reaction really called for? When the chips are down, would you seriously leave the trooper hanging? I really hate these cops writing cops threads because it really does bring out the worst in some of us.

Morris
10-30-2011, 07:26
If the quote in the story is actually true she even went so far to be all high and mighty saying "You know what you are to me? You are a criminal." It was a total contempt of FHP thing plain and simple. Sure give him a ticket, call his supervisor do what needs to be done but seriously does she even know what a criminal is.... When is the last time she delt with a Domestic or handled a shooting. Probably never since she's busy pulling over marked police cars to keep her stats up. If she really thought it was stolen why the solo approach? Most stolen police cars have a pretty long line of other police cars behind them. They also go over metro net here to all agencies ASAP so thats a BS excuse. Then whats with the "Yes I'm serious" once she knows he's a Uniformed Officer as she flings the door open an orders him out to immediatly cuff him. Tell me I'm wrong that she's on a total power trip? Wonder how she treats everyone else she stops with her badge heavy attitude. F-her and I hope she never needs cover in Miami.

Frankly, it's attitude like what is typed here that cause me to take a dimmer view of the profession as a whole.

Let's flip it around.

FedEx ground truck goes barreling along at a high rate of speed. Officer sees the truck and tries to stop it. It fails to yield and speeds get to over 100 mph. The truck finally slows down and then stops. The uniformed driver tells you he is late for a delivery job. Do you just ignore it because he is a uniformed FedEx driver driving a marked FedEx truck? Or do you hook his dumb butt for reckless?

We are expected to hold the higher standard in our professional lives and even our off duty lives. That is a given of this profession we are in. Running to an off duty gig at reckless speeds and doing reckless driving, marked unit or POV, is unprofessional. I see this as one cop having a higher professional standard than another. What I see is a Miami cop acting like a reckless idiot, giving good professional cops in that region another black eye. How do we explain to someone we stop for reckless driving why we are hooking them but not the cop just because he's bombing down the road in a marked unit with a uniform on?

Again, I would suggest that this is not the first time this "cop" has driven like this. It just so happened, like a DUI, that he got caught. Over my career, I have seen my share of arrogant cops who drive like a-hole and expect the badge and the car to get them out of trouble. All the while not realizing that it's stuff like this that diminishes our profession.

S.O.Interceptor
10-30-2011, 07:44
Both of these "cops" were idiots.

The dumbass driving 120 for a side job should be suspended for a few days and denied side jobs for a while.

If it isn't reported as stolen, the FHP trooper had no business chasing down a marked patrol car. For all she knew he was trying to catch up to a vehicle without alerting the vehicle to his presence.



Regardless of how stupid my reason is for speeding, if I'm in a marked patrol car, I wouldn't stop either until I was ready. And once I got to my destination I would've *****ed out the trooper. I don't usually drive 120 without lights on, but if I do, it's none of HP's concern. Instead of trying to make a traffic stop, she should've been concerned with how she could backup the officer in the event the **** was about the hit the fan. When I see a cop hauling ass, my first thought isn't "how can I stop him/her or get a contact/ meet my quota?", it's "I wonder what's wrong and how I can help?"

Once the trooper saw it was a uniformed officer, at the most she should've asked his name and called for a supervisor. She was WAY out of line handcuffing him. If you want to be pissed off, be pissed off. But cuffing a uniformed officer? That's borderline insanity.

Once I got out of my car and she told me to turn around, I would've told her she's crazy as hell. If she touched me or tried to cuff me I would've put her ass on the ground. You also DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS ON A UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER!! That's just common sense. If you are with another agency, but do not have a warrant for that officer, you had best stay hands off. If you want arrest a uniformed officer, you had best be holding a warrant.

The entire ordeal could've been avoided by driving 65mph. However once the situation got started, the trooper handled it about as poorly as possible. She went into it with the attitude of "He's speeding on MY highway, he can't do that, I'm gonna stop him!" instead of "I wonder what's wrong?". Once she figured out the guy was a jackass, she should've called her supervisor, his supervisor, *****ed at the guy, and had everything handled internally.




Long ago in Texas there were pissing contests like this between agencies. An officer would write another officer in a marked car, and it was legal. Officers would arrest uniformed officers for unlawful carrying a weapon(before we had CHLs and authority 24/7) while on their way to/from work, and it was legal. City, county, and state would all fight over who did what and who was a real cop where. It was bad at times when my dad was an officer. Fortunately that has changed. Now you can't arrest an officer for UCW, and one marked vehicle doesn't have authority to stop another marked vehicle. Now days one of our guys could crisscross the county with another cop trying to stop them all day long, then flip them the bird when they stopped for gas and a drink, and then take off again. And no other officer would assist unless the car being chased was confirmed stolen. If the officer initiated the "traffic stop" has a problem with it they can handle it through internal channels.

Occasionally we have a dispute with another local officer who takes it upon himself to radar every other cop and then file a complaint against them. It's annoying, but we just ignore him and do our jobs. But even he isn't insane enough to try to chase us or arrest us. Even he knows that could end in his own bloodshed.

I ate lunch with a trooper friend of mine and we talked about this. He said he can't believe a trooper tried to stop a marked car in the first place and was dumbfounded when he heard how it turned out. He also agreed with me about being arrested by another officer while in uniform. He would use as much force as necessary to keep Robocop from putting him in handcuffs. At that point you kinda have to assume that the officer chasing a marked car and trying to arrest a uniformed officer is either an impersonator or not mentally stable and that your life may be in danger if cuffed and disarmed.



After thinking on it a while, I think he needs a suspension, no side jobs for a good long while, another EVOC course as well as a basic liabilities course about the dangers of high speed driving, and a swift kick in the balls. She needs to be spoken to about minding her own business and not worrying about what the PD/SO are up to, changing her attitude from "I'm gonna get you" to "I need to see if help is needed", then told how dangerous and stupid trying to arrest a uniformed officer is, and informed how lucky she was to get those handcuffs on without being injured.

Pepper45
10-30-2011, 08:06
IMHO, the Miami cop should be fired and prosecuted, and the FHP troop should have some retraining. He was endangering the lives of everyone around him, and while he has that ability, and he's granted immunity to do it, he also has to balance the need to do such things against the danger involved. 120 without lights? For miles? Sorry, not going to wash. No reason whatsoever is good enough to make that happen, if it was to save someone's bacon, the troop would have wound up following him to where his buddy was fighting it out. If it was to do some grand thing and his lights weren't working, she'd have wound up at the same place. But to keep running like that, then stop? Demonstrated that he had no reason to be doing what he was doing.

She shouldn't have approached him like that, and probably should have called Miami 911, and asked why their car was doing 120+ without lights/siren. If there wasn't an active call, a reason for a squad to be careening down the freeway at that speed, she damned well better stop it, but she'd also better get a Miami supervisor, her supervisor, and lots of cover there before making contact. Anyone stupid enough, crazy enough, or criminal enough to do that crap is dangerous enough to try anything.

Yes, I called him a criminal. That's because he is one. If he did what he did in my state, he'd be on the hook for felony eluding, and it would stick. Sure, it takes some serious crap to pull over a marked car, and yes, it's something that until today, I couldn't imagine myself ever doing. But that kind of dangerous behavior, reckless disregard for human life on the highway, how the hell can anyone charged with protecting and serving the public, look the other way? I will forget about traffic violations, I will extend professional courtesy to the wives/girlfriends/kids of cops, within reason. But commit a crime in front of me, a felony crime at that? You tied my hands, I didn't. Blaming the FHP troop for ruining that Miami guy's life, is just like all the turds we arrest on a daily basis, blaming us for ruining their lives for making that dope arrest, for arresting them on a DV beef, whatever. It's not their crappy decision making that put them in that situation, it's not them committing a criminal act, it's obviously the cop's fault for making a big deal about it.

Some of the comments here shock me. I cannot fathom how anyone thinks this guy ought to avoid criminal prosecution, let alone keep a job in LE. There are way too many people lining up to do this job that won't abuse their power, that won't endanger the lives of the citizens they swore to protect without good reason, to keep a jackwagon like this employed.

steveksux
10-30-2011, 08:31
If she hadn't pulled him over, she'd always regret "the big one that got away"...

Randy

Wil Ufgood
10-30-2011, 08:37
:dunno: Maybe she was looking for a date and was pissed when it turned out to be a guy in the RMP :embarassed:

str8tshooter
10-30-2011, 08:53
Quote:
If the quote in the story is actually true she even went so far to be all high and mighty saying "You know what you are to me? You are a criminal." It was a total contempt of FHP thing plain and simple. Sure give him a ticket, call his supervisor do what needs to be done but seriously does she even know what a criminal is.... When is the last time she delt with a Domestic or handled a shooting. Probably never since she's busy pulling over marked police cars to keep her stats up. If she really thought it was stolen why the solo approach? Most stolen police cars have a pretty long line of other police cars behind them. They also go over metro net here to all agencies ASAP so thats a BS excuse. Then whats with the "Yes I'm serious" once she knows he's a Uniformed Officer as she flings the door open an orders him out to immediatly cuff him. Tell me I'm wrong that she's on a total power trip? Wonder how she treats everyone else she stops with her badge heavy attitude. F-her and I hope she never needs cover in Miami.



Quote: Frankly, it's attitude like what is typed here that cause me to take a dimmer view of the profession as a whole.

Let's flip it around.

FedEx ground truck goes barreling along at a high rate of speed. Officer sees the truck and tries to stop it. It fails to yield and speeds get to over 100 mph. The truck finally slows down and then stops. The uniformed driver tells you he is late for a delivery job. Do you just ignore it because he is a uniformed FedEx driver driving a marked FedEx truck? Or do you hook his dumb butt for reckless?

We are expected to hold the higher standard in our professional lives and even our off duty lives. That is a given of this profession we are in. Running to an off duty gig at reckless speeds and doing reckless driving, marked unit or POV, is unprofessional. I see this as one cop having a higher professional standard than another. What I see is a Miami cop acting like a reckless idiot, giving good professional cops in that region another black eye. How do we explain to someone we stop for reckless driving why we are hooking them but not the cop just because he's bombing down the road in a marked unit with a uniform on?

Again, I would suggest that this is not the first time this "cop" has driven like this. It just so happened, like a DUI, that he got caught. Over my career, I have seen my share of arrogant cops who drive like a-hole and expect the badge and the car to get them out of trouble. All the while not realizing that it's stuff like this that diminishes our profession. End Quote



As a Civilian, Reading all these posts, I am truly discouraged!!! You officers that cant seem to believe that one of you that is truly operating outside the boundaries that are set by law, and that you hold everybody else accountable to, is absolutely ridiculous and ludicrous.I have done far less, and the officer that pulled me over insinuated that my driving habits would send me and many others involved in the fiery crash that ensued from my willful reckless behavior would be the end of the world.
I would expect the usual support and esprit de corps, many professional organizations have, to be shown and espoused here, but not total disregard of duly enacted laws, by duly elected legislators, acting in the interests of the citizens who elected them. I would like to think that you can police your own, but from the comments I have seen here, I am not entirely sure that it's not the prisoners guarding the jail. Just my 2 cents fwiw.
SS

kenpoprofessor
10-30-2011, 09:18
As a Civilian, Reading all these posts, I am truly discouraged!!! You officers that cant seem to believe that one of you that is truly operating outside the boundaries that are set by law, and that you hold everybody else accountable to, is absolutely ridiculous and ludicrous.I have done far less, and the officer that pulled me over insinuated that my driving habits would send me and many others involved in the fiery crash that ensued from my willful reckless behavior would be the end of the world.
I would expect the usual support and esprit de corps, many professional organizations have, to be shown and espoused here, but not total disregard of duly enacted laws, by duly elected legislators, acting in the interests of the citizens who elected them. I would like to think that you can police your own, but from the comments I have seen here, I am not entirely sure that it's not the prisoners guarding the jail. Just my 2 cents fwiw.
SS

Yep, feel the same way. Cops feel they shouldn't be treated any differently than every day citizens when it comes to breaking the law, but in an issue like this, somehow, they think they should get a pass.

If you've sworn an oath to become a peace officer, then yes, you should be held to a different standard when you break the law. Our military runs under the UCMJ, completely different set of rules once you've sworn that oath.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Mayhem like Me
10-30-2011, 09:20
what many of you fail to realize that "marked" Patrol car is about 20 miles outside it's jurisdiction in another county... FHP has Miami radio channels, The guy was an Idiot and violated MANY Florida laws should he get a pass because he's in a patrol car really think about that....That was fleeing and eluding if done by anyone else..
So it was OK for him to make those Ricky Bobby moves without lights and Siren at over 100mph with your wife or teenage driver on that road.. really think about it?

Mayhem like Me
10-30-2011, 09:26
Wondering out loud here.... IF you were on duty, in uniform, driving a marked patrol car, and a solo "officer" from another agency tried to stop/detain/arrest and HANDCUFF you, what would be the proper response?

The fact that he was so apologetic speaks VOLUMES if I was right I would have knocked her out... he was not and knew it!

merlynusn
10-30-2011, 10:21
I'm actually kinda surprised by the comments too. It's one thing if it's an on duty unit in your jurisdiction going to an officer down call. It's quite another if it's outside your jurisdiction and you have no real reason to be doing it. And if I was running to an officer down call, I wouldn't have ever stopped. But I'm also not running to an officer down call outside my jurisdiction when I'll never get there in time.

That some of you say you'd assault the FHP trooper? Seriously?? You are in the wrong, you do felony fleeding and eluding, and you're going to attack an officer for doing their job? What would you do if they tried to arrest you for a DV? What if you were in uniform when you were having your DV?

I've been to DV's where the officer is in uniform in a marked car (off duty though). I was damn close to putting him in cuffs because he wouldn't back off when I was trying to talk to the spouse. It's simple, I was the on duty unit on a call, I was in charge. If he had kept interfering, then yes, he'd have been detained and his gun taken. Thankfully, he smartened up I sent him to his car and posted someone there with him until the SGT could arrive.

I can see the trooper thinking it was stolen. She's talking on the radio giving the car number and tag number, etc. I don't know what was going through her head. But you also notice that as soon as she saw it was a uniformed officer, she holstered the gun. I'd have asked to see his police ID and probably wouldn't have handcuffed him right away once I saw he was actually a cop and not some thug who stole a police car.

GPalmer
10-30-2011, 10:34
what many of you fail to realize that "marked" Patrol car is about 20 miles outside it's jurisdiction in another county... FHP has Miami radio channels, The guy was an Idiot and violated MANY Florida laws should he get a pass because he's in a patrol car really think about that....That was fleeing and eluding if done by anyone else..
So it was OK for him to make those Ricky Bobby moves without lights and Siren at over 100mph with your wife or teenage driver on that road.. really think about it?

+1 to this. Emergency personnel are allowed to go faster than the speed limit because they are responding to an emergency. It has been decided that the risk posed by that driving is less than the benefit of a faster response time, therefore it is allowed. In this case, with no emergency there is no reason he should be driving above the speed limit, he's just another driver in a car; a driver going at least 50 mph over the speed limit and recklessly endangering the public.

4949shooter
10-30-2011, 10:48
The bottom line is the cop was wrong, no doubt about it.

The female trooper could have handled it better also. If she thought she had a case for eluding an officer (NJ terminology) and she was going to go that route then she should have kept him in handcuffs and charged him accordingly. If she wasn't than she had no business putting him in handcuffs and frisking/seizing weapons.

It's either a crime and arrest or it isn't. It's not half of one and half the other.

This incident was poorly handled.

Mattz
10-30-2011, 11:05
I can't believe there are "officers" on here who have no issue with someone pulling over a marked cruiser and pulling a uniformed officer out and arresting him. Yeah, he was going fast, for no reason. If we arrested everyone in this discussion for speeding in their patrol car there would be no one left to discuss this topic. Take a hard look in the mirror before you play goody good. No one is defending the reason why the cop was speeding, suspend him and take away his take home. Prosecute and terminate? WOW.

Bodyarmorguy
10-30-2011, 11:18
Yes he may be an A-hole and he really needs the departments help correcting his behavior if he even gets to keep his job. But... WTF stopping a MARKED police car?!?!? Yeah his reason may have turned out to be garbage after it was all said and done but there could have been reasons to be driving fast with no equipment. I've personally had my emergency equipment fail on me (we reuse all of it so it was probably on it's 3rd or 4th car min. and had a bad wire tied to the control box that shorted it all out the stuff worked at start of shift and failed part way though) as I was trying to get to a officer calling for help. No I didn't go 120 MPH and was way more careful but yes I hauled balls with no lights and sirens since I didn't have any that worked. Does that justify it no, but did this FHP nut even consider that?

So let me get this right....she should have actually, given the facts and circumstances before her at that moment, stopped and thought..."Well maybe this guy is driving 120 mph because he has a bad wire tie in the harness"?

I am all for giving a fellow cop the benefit of the doubt, but you said yourself, there could have been reasons for driving that way, but the FACT is, there wasn't.

In the last 7 days, central Florida has seen 2 persons arrested for impersonating police officers and I just received a bulletin about a third running around wearing a uniform and claiming to be the team leader for the FDLE regional SWAT team.


If the quote in the story is actually true she even went so far to be all high and mighty saying "You know what you are to me? You are a criminal." It was a total contempt of FHP thing plain and simple. Sure give him a ticket, call his supervisor do what needs to be done but seriously does she even know what a criminal is.... When is the last time she delt with a Domestic or handled a shooting. Probably never since she's busy pulling over marked police cars to keep her stats up. If she really thought it was stolen why the solo approach? Most stolen police cars have a pretty long line of other police cars behind them. They also go over metro net here to all agencies ASAP so thats a BS excuse. Then whats with the "Yes I'm serious" once she knows he's a Uniformed Officer as she flings the door open an orders him out to immediatly cuff him. Tell me I'm wrong that she's on a total power trip? Wonder how she treats everyone else she stops with her badge heavy attitude. F-her and I hope she never needs cover in Miami.

Regarding the approach, yeah, many things I would have done differently. As far as when the last time a trooper saw a "real" criminal. The Troopers here in Florida, especially those working the Turnpike and I95 corridors contact criminals that most city or county cops will never encounter in their career. These folks routinely stop and arrest persons in possession of dozens of kilos of cocaine and bales of marijuana along with the associated guns of the trade, often beginning off of the PC of a routine traffic stop.

Again, for whatever reason, FL seems to have a rash of impersonators currently. And yes, many pursuits of stolen police cars have a long line of cars behind them, but in this case there was not. She declared the pursuit, other Officers were responding, but they had not arrived by the time that the offending officer decided to pull over. If you engage a pursuit and the offender surrenders before your back-up arrives, do you drive away, or call time out?

Troopers also work off of a different radio system that most other agencies in this state so there is usually not the benefit of a metro-net. Our radio system used in this county has a "Countywide" and 4 "Alert" channels that all 14 agencies in the county can access, however, FHP, FWC and other state agencies don't have that same system.

GPalmer
10-30-2011, 11:20
I can't believe there are "officers" on here who have no issue with someone pulling over a marked cruiser and pulling a uniformed officer out and arresting him. Yeah, he was going fast, for no reason. If we arrested everyone in this discussion for speeding in their patrol car there would be no one left to discuss this topic. Take a hard look in the mirror before you play goody good. No one is defending the reason why the cop was speeding, suspend him and take away his take home. Prosecute and terminate? WOW.

I think many officers on this board have serious issues with other officers who commit felonies...

Mayhem like Me
10-30-2011, 11:27
The bottom line is the cop was wrong, no doubt about it.

The female trooper could have handled it better also. If she thought she had a case for eluding an officer (NJ terminology) and she was going to go that route then she should have kept him in handcuffs and charged him accordingly. If she wasn't than she had no business putting him in handcuffs and frisking/seizing weapons.

It's either a crime and arrest or it isn't. It's not half of one and half the other.

This incident was poorly handled.

He was cut some slack because he was a cop ,, it was handled poorly...by him.

he has no police authority outside his jurisdiction in FL when off duty...

A security guard doing the same thing would have had to bond out.

Mayhem like Me
10-30-2011, 11:31
I can't believe there are "officers" on here who have no issue with someone pulling over a marked cruiser and pulling a uniformed officer out and arresting him. Yeah, he was going fast, for no reason. If we arrested everyone in this discussion for speeding in their patrol car there would be no one left to discuss this topic. Take a hard look in the mirror before you play goody good. No one is defending the reason why the cop was speeding, suspend him and take away his take home. Prosecute and terminate? WOW.

Where do you work ? I would like to come and drive like an idiot endangering your family and loved ones in my car without lights and siren ... thats ok with you right! As long as I have a uniform and I use a marked car ..
Fact is any real cop in that area KNEW he was not headed to anything important or he would have been lights and siren , and he still had a 15 minute drive at warp speed just to get INTO HIS OWN JURISDICTION.

SAR
10-30-2011, 11:45
The bottom line is the cop was wrong, no doubt about it.

The female trooper could have handled it better also. If she thought she had a case for eluding an officer (NJ terminology) and she was going to go that route then she should have kept him in handcuffs and charged him accordingly. If she wasn't than she had no business putting him in handcuffs and frisking/seizing weapons.

It's either a crime and arrest or it isn't. It's not half of one and half the other.

This incident was poorly handled.

I agree that both were in the wrong. First of all, the Miami officer was clearly wrong for driving 120 mph to an off duty gig. However, IF the FHP officer thought she had a stolen police vehicle or a police impersonator, she had no business leaving cover and approaching the vehicle. Where I work, there is no such thing as a "half ass" high risk stop. You either have something or you don't. If you think you have something then you go the full route. Get back up, call them out, prone them, handcuff them and clear the car. You can dust them off later if you need to.

If I were the Miami officer I probably would have pulled over immediately if nothing else, to determine if she was actually after me or perhaps someone ahead of me. It probably would not have gotten this much out of hand if he had immediately shut down and pulled over. Heck I have been pulled over by CHP for speeding on the way home. You pull over as fast and as safely as you can and you take your lumps. 99% of the time, the officer will be courteous and it won't end badly with you being handcuffed. Now if you just keep speeding and pretend it's not you they are after, you probably will get proned out and cuffed up.

Finally I will just say this (feel free to disagree with me here). I'm a big car and motorcycle person. Though I believe high speeds are for the track, 120 mph is not all that scary in a modern car. I agree it is ridiculous to do it on surface streets, but on an open track, I've done 160+ in both cars and bikes and did not feel the least bit out of control. Again, not saying it was wise to do it on the highway, but a lot of folks think 100+ is just so out of control and reckless, but I'm here to tell you that it is controllable in a modern car or bike.

SAR
10-30-2011, 11:47
Fact is any real cop in that area KNEW he was not headed to anything important or he would have been lights and siren , and he still had a 15 minute drive at warp speed just to get INTO HIS OWN JURISDICTION.

Dude, I never drive with lights and siren to get my Krispy Kreme, but I consider it important nonetheless. :rofl:

EODLRD
10-30-2011, 11:51
Given all the known facts, I would say it was a reasonable stop. But could have been handled much better.

Now that is out of the way, I am appalled at some of the opinions posted on here. Not going to cover the trooper because she pulled over one of Miami's? Advocating assault while in uniform, yet off duty, on a officer conducting their duties? Holy crap.

Sent from my ADR6400L

wct097
10-30-2011, 12:01
Around here, civilians go to jail for that kind of speed. Have a friend that spent a month's worth of weekends in lockup after being charged for driving his car that fast.

rookie1
10-30-2011, 12:24
You would be surprised. First couple weeks of the academy when I first started, an academy class mate of mine lost his job for being pulled over going 90 in a 55.

Not from Iowa are ya, I was talking to a trooper at court one day and she said she cited a guy on the way to the academy for that. The agency has a decent reputation for turn over.

Mattz
10-30-2011, 12:24
Where do you work ? I would like to come and drive like an idiot endangering your family and loved ones in my car without lights and siren ... thats ok with you right! As long as I have a uniform and I use a marked car ..
Fact is any real cop in that area KNEW he was not headed to anything important or he would have been lights and siren , and he still had a 15 minute drive at warp speed just to get INTO HIS OWN JURISDICTION.

Do as you wish, I don't police the police. If I see a police car traveling as excessive speed I am going to assume they have some kind of business to take care of, and it's not my position to stop every marked unit traveling over the speed limit. If that's how you operate, cool, we don't do that down here.

DaBigBR
10-30-2011, 12:38
Regardless of how stupid my reason is for speeding, if I'm in a marked patrol car, I wouldn't stop either until I was ready. And once I got to my destination I would've *****ed out the trooper.

Once the trooper saw it was a uniformed officer, at the most she should've asked his name and called for a supervisor. She was WAY out of line handcuffing him. If you want to be pissed off, be pissed off. But cuffing a uniformed officer? That's borderline insanity.

Once I got out of my car and she told me to turn around, I would've told her she's crazy as hell. If she touched me or tried to cuff me I would've put her ass on the ground. You also DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS ON A UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER!! That's just common sense. If you are with another agency, but do not have a warrant for that officer, you had best stay hands off. If you want arrest a uniformed officer, you had best be holding a warrant.

Regardless of your opinion of the trooper's handling of the incident, do you think that she was outside of the law? Does your state grant you the legal authority, as an on duty officer, to fail to yield to an emergency vehicle like that, particularly when you yourself are NOT responding to an emergecny call? Does you state grant you the legal authority to resist arrest or detention by an on duty, uniformed cop driving a marked car?

rookie1
10-30-2011, 12:38
I don't know. I have had a deputy fly by me at 97 with no lights on. The closest I got to taking action was put my foot on the brake not knowing who it was until he passed. That being said, I don't know where he was going and didn't care. Lets say he was going to something and I just delayed that by stopping him. The video and news made me believe that after the trooper hit the lights the other cop then hit speeds of 120. The initial stop was because "a marked Miami Police cruiser passed her at a high rate of speed" What was that, 80-90-100?. Those are speeds I wouldn't care about. I agree with the cover comment. Have the officer walk back to me, one could assume if they are in a fully marked squad theres a gun involved, if not lets expect the worst. Going to a off duty gig is weak but the trooper didn't know that. Also agencies in my state are really good about letting us know if a squad car was stolen (hasn't happened that I know of) but if so it would be sent to every agency then its game on if they go by at any speed. However I believe she was totally within her legal right to take the action she did.

SAR
10-30-2011, 12:45
Regardless of your opinion of the trooper's handling of the incident, do you think that she was outside of the law? Does your state grant you the legal authority, as an on duty officer, to fail to yield to an emergency vehicle like that, particularly when you yourself are NOT responding to an emergecny call? Does you state grant you the legal authority to resist arrest or detention by an on duty, uniformed cop driving a marked car?

I suspect this has more to do with dealing with an awkward situation, cognitive dissonance if you will, rather than the legality of it all.

This reminds me of the time a few years back when two separate units from the LAPD and LASD got into a "Mexican stand off." Each squad had their weapons drawn and pointed at the other yelling for each to drop their guns and get on the ground. Neither would do it because they were all trained never to give up their guns when on duty. The question of legality over detention never came up. It was just so awkward that no one was willing to give the other any quarter. Finally I think other units arrived and snapped all of them out of their "daze." In the aftermath both sides agreed that the other could have done things differently. :rofl:

VirginiaLEO83
10-30-2011, 13:16
After watching the full, almost 10min dash cam video I think we can draw some conclusions.

Put yourself in the troopers shoes and watch the tape. It seems like she caught up with him to see what was going on, if he was going after someone, etc. Same thing I would have thought and I usually do when I see troopers or other agencies hauling through my county.

After watching him drive with no emergency equipment activated and still in the same manner, she hits the lights. Could have been she was just going to flag him down and say "Hey....WTF man, slow down or turn something on!" since she doesn't immediately radio anything in and only blips the siren.

Then the car continues, seemingly ignoring her and even accelerating away at several points, for almost 5mins. Red flags would have been going off in all of our heads if it was anything other then a police car as that is a tell tale sign that something isn't right. The fact that it is a police car just makes the situation worse as now she's really getting concerned that something isn't right. She's left with no choice but to call it in and continue following.

Now the car stops and she approaches with caution, as she should. There's no way of knowing if this is some rouge cop who's gone off the deep end and everything up to that point indicates that.

For reference, some of you might remember the incident we had back in May where a Franklin County Deputy shot a Virginia State Trooper in the leg after the trooper pulled him over.....in his marked car! The trooper, in my opinion, likely had dropped his guard down or hesitated because it was a speeding marked police car. The deputy had just shot and killed his ex-wife before the trooper stopped him.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/3740323-Va-deputy-kills-ex-wife-shoots-state-trooper/

We all need to ensure that we go home at the end of the day and as much as I hate to say it, sometimes we have to protect ourselves from our fellow brothers. No one loves the blue line more then me but in today's time, anything is possible.

We can't second guess her actions on why she decided to pull her gun, handcuff, etc. Maybe she had the story of the Va trooper in her mind, who knows? Looks to me like she was following proper officer safety procedure until she had all the facts.

The Supreme Court says that a court cannot judge the actions of the police based on hindsight, they can only judge them by the information that was available at the time and the split second that officers have to make a decision. The Florida trooper is owed the same courtesy from us.

Thank God the Miami officer didn't kill anyone or himself. That God the trooper didn't wreck trying to catch him. We all have seen the stories on the news where an officer has killed someone blowing an intersection carelessly, no need to rehash it here. Venture over to ODMP.org if anyone needs a reminder of how many officers have died in crashes.

It's people like him that make our jobs harder. The public hates us a little bit more and the admin tightens the noose a little bit tighter every time something like this happens.

lwt210
10-30-2011, 13:17
We had an officer once that did something similar: blew through another JD in his marked car running wide open. IIRC, he was paged and was way too far away to be in line with his call out mileage requirements. Off at a gal's house....a gal that wasn't his wife.

Long story short, instead of running him down, the cop in the other JD got his car number and asked his dispatch to call our agency and inquire as to what the emergency was and if we needed assistance. Like this clown, our guy was running triple digits around other motorist with no code equipment on.

Once the call came in, they pulled up his AVL data, confirmed the speeds, and brought him in for IA questioning. Ended his career.

Now, was that officer's inquiry an honest concern or was it something more sinister like?

Who cares? Our guy should have had better ethics. He should have been where he was supposed to be. He never should have drove that fast. He should have been the type to set an example.

This guy has no business running that fast to a late part time gig. I saw dozens of other cars out there full of lives he was putting at risk. We call that reckless endangerment here. He set all this in motion for no other reason that being late to a gig, if I read that part right.

If you use that poor of judgement on something minor, putting that many souls at risk, not to mention setting a terrible example to every car you pass.....well, I for one doubt that your career choice is a good one. I do give him props for not getting out of the car and being combative with her. If he worked here, that is the only thing that might have saved his job. Saying ma'am and all miiiiight have made the powers that be keep him.

He knew he was wrong, knew he was on video, knew he had no way to justify his actions. I will be interested in seeing what he totes punishment wise.

Here? 90 percent chance that he would be "invited to resign". And if his personnel file has other things of a similar nature? Fuggetaboutit. He'd be toast.

Regards.

WarCry
10-30-2011, 13:19
Do as you wish, I don't police the police.

That is......an astonishing statement. There are a lot of quips and off-the-cuff comments I could make, but suffice it to say this is a SCARY attitude to me: "Do what you want, you're a cop, so I don't care and won't be bothered to find out."

That's a disturbing concept to me.

SAR
10-30-2011, 13:20
Ok, so let's say she had some valid concerns. I agree, never can be too careful. I don't know how they do it in Virginia, but out here, we don't approach cars where we believe the suspect may be armed. We call them out and back towards our cars, then we prone them out on the ground. My words to her are, if you think you have something, then don't resort to shoddy tactics. Go full bore.

After watching the full, almost 10min dash cam video I think we can draw some conclusions.

Put yourself in the troopers shoes and watch the tape. It seems like she caught up with him to see what was going on, if he was going after someone, etc. Same thing I would have thought and I usually do when I see troopers or other agencies hauling through my county.

After watching him drive with no emergency equipment activated and still in the same manner, she hits the lights. Could have been she was just going to flag him down and say "Hey....WTF man, slow down or turn something on!" since she doesn't immediately radio anything in and only blips the siren.

Then the car continues, seemingly ignoring her and even accelerating away at several points, for almost 5mins. Red flags would have been going off in all of our heads if it was anything other then a police car as that is a tell tale sign that something isn't right. The fact that it is a police car just makes the situation worse as now she's really getting concerned that something isn't right. She's left with no choice but to call it in and continue following.

Now the car stops and she approaches with caution, as she should. There's no way of knowing if this is some rouge cop who's gone off the deep end and everything up to that point indicates that.

For reference, some of you might remember the incident we had back in May where a Franklin County Deputy shot a Virginia State Trooper in the leg after the trooper pulled him over.....in his marked car! The trooper, in my opinion, likely had dropped his guard down or hesitated because it was a speeding marked police car. The deputy had just shot and killed his ex-wife before the trooper stopped him.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/3740323-Va-deputy-kills-ex-wife-shoots-state-trooper/

We all need to ensure that we go home at the end of the day and as much as I hate to say it, sometimes we have to protect ourselves from our fellow brothers. No one loves the blue line more then me but in today's time, anything is possible.

We can't second guess her actions on why she decided to pull her gun, handcuff, etc. Maybe she had the story of the Va trooper in her mind, who knows? Looks to me like she was following proper officer safety procedure until she had all the facts.

The Supreme Court says that a court cannot judge the actions of the police based on hindsight, they can only judge them by the information that was available at the time and the split second that officers have to make a decision. The Florida trooper is owed the same courtesy from us.

Thank God the Miami officer didn't kill anyone or himself. That God the trooper didn't wreck trying to catch him. We all have seen the stories on the news where an officer has killed someone blowing an intersection carelessly, no need to rehash it here. Venture over to ODMP.org if anyone needs a reminder of how many officers have died in crashes.

It's people like him that make our jobs harder. The public hates us a little bit more and the admin tightens the noose a little bit tighter every time something like this happens.

Dragoon44
10-30-2011, 13:33
watch the dashcam she's in pursuit of him for 5 minutes after he blows by her at 120 plus cutting across 3 lanes of traffic.. she never hooked him cite and release I would have took him for fleeing and eluding in addition to reckless. IT is that bad he's a verified Idiot..

+1 had it been me his POS ass would have been in Jail.

A badge is not a free pass to do whatever you want and it's not a get out of jail free card.

The Miami officer needs to be fired.

Dragoon44
10-30-2011, 13:43
I can't believe there are "officers" on here who have no issue with someone pulling over a marked cruiser and pulling a uniformed officer out and arresting him. Yeah, he was going fast, for no reason. If we arrested everyone in this discussion for speeding in their patrol car there would be no one left to discuss this topic. Take a hard look in the mirror before you play goody good. No one is defending the reason why the cop was speeding, suspend him and take away his take home. Prosecute and terminate? WOW.

I can't believe that there are officers here that think upholding the law only applies to non police.

You are shocked that there are those that think this turd should be terminated? really? Maybe that is because you have reduced his offense to merely "going fast" rather than what it was, weaving in and out of traffic and doing 120+ putting at risk not only his own life but everyone else on the highway with him. And for what? He was running late for his off duty gig????

People with the mentality of this Miami cop, that it's ok for him to break the law and endanger others for no reason other than his personal benefit don't belong on the job.

VirginiaLEO83
10-30-2011, 13:44
If he had killed someone, I bet the mood of this thread would be a lot different....

VirginiaLEO83
10-30-2011, 14:03
As a Civilian, Reading all these posts, I am truly discouraged!!! You officers that cant seem to believe that one of you that is truly operating outside the boundaries that are set by law, and that you hold everybody else accountable to, is absolutely ridiculous and ludicrous.I have done far less, and the officer that pulled me over insinuated that my driving habits would send me and many others involved in the fiery crash that ensued from my willful reckless behavior would be the end of the world.
I would expect the usual support and esprit de corps, many professional organizations have, to be shown and espoused here, but not total disregard of duly enacted laws, by duly elected legislators, acting in the interests of the citizens who elected them. I would like to think that you can police your own, but from the comments I have seen here, I am not entirely sure that it's not the prisoners guarding the jail. Just my 2 cents fwiw.
SS

Hey, GREAT JOB guys! Another citizen who's lost faith in us because he expected us to uphold the oath we all swore to. How silly a concept!

Since when are we allowed to operate outside the law, just for the hell of it? Every state and every department has law & policy that dictates WHEN & HOW you are allowed to disregard traffic laws.

We SHOULD police ourselves to keep each other in line so the BS like the MPD officer doesn't happen in the first place! You've never told a fellow officer or rook to square himself when you see him get out of line, without running to a supervisor? Maybe if more of that happened instead of the "look the other way" attitude, we wouldn't be all over the news every other day.

Like I said, this guy pushed the limit. It's his own damn fault.

Mattz
10-30-2011, 14:23
I can't believe that there are officers here that think upholding the law only applies to non police.

You are shocked that there are those that think this turd should be terminated? really? Maybe that is because you have reduced his offense to merely "going fast" rather than what it was, weaving in and out of traffic and doing 120+ putting at risk not only his own life but everyone else on the highway with him. And for what? He was running late for his off duty gig????

People with the mentality of this Miami cop, that it's ok for him to break the law and endanger others for no reason other than his personal benefit don't belong on the job.

I do have issues with what he was doing, I also have issues it being handled with him in a marked cruiser in uniform. He needs to be disciplined by his department. If it concerned her so much to actually perform a traffic stop on a marked cruiser, she should have got his information and contacted his supervisor.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

WarCry
10-30-2011, 14:47
I do have issues with what he was doing, I also have issues it being handled with him in a marked cruiser in uniform. He needs to be disciplined by his department. If it concerned her so much to actually perform a traffic stop on a marked cruiser, she should have got his information and contacted his supervisor.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

When so many of your peers disagree with you, the problem is less likely to be with everyone ELSE.

S.O.Interceptor
10-30-2011, 15:22
what many of you fail to realize that "marked" Patrol car is about 20 miles outside it's jurisdiction in another county...

That does make a big difference. But so far I've read 4 sources and none of them mention this. They all say it happened in Miami and it was Miami PD.
I still can't imagine doing what she did, because I've been in her position(but I used common sense and didn't "pursue" a marked vehicle), but there is a big difference between driving fast inside your jurisdiction and doing it outside. I'm shocked that a PD officer can take a marked ride and work security 20 miles outside the city. Some officers(few) here work outside their city/county, but rarely in a marked vehicle.

The last time this happened to me, I was running radar on a highway, met a blur that lit up my radar, chased him halfway across the county trying to catch up until he ran into traffic and slowed down. I got behind him, saw a white Tahoe with no markings, ran the LP, while waiting for the LP return I lit him up. Then he turned on his lights. I turned mine off and once I confirmed it was a PD vehicle from a neighboring agency. I contacted the PD and found out who he was and that he was on a bomb squad call-out. I let him be on his way. A couple of weeks later I saw him out in his unmarked PD ride(being on-call his agency lets him use the PD ride for virtually everything). I stopped and had a pleasant conversation where I expressed my opinion of his actions politely. He apologized and gave me his contact info and his bomb squad contact info and said they were available for all surrounding agencies 24/7. He now shares info and intel and he now runs lights and sirens when doing more than about 10 over the speed limit when called out. Instead of pointing my gun at him and slapping handcuffs on him, I figured he had some business and decided to handle it later. Now I have an acquaintance and a new resource.

Somehow I doubt this officer and trooper will be exchanging intel or taking any action to improve interdepartmental relations.

Morris
10-30-2011, 15:35
Somehow I doubt this officer and trooper will be exchanging intel or taking any action to improve interdepartmental relations.

I dunno. I've seen some strange things like a similar that blossomed into a marriage and then a divorce shortly thereafter . . .

4949shooter
10-30-2011, 17:09
He was cut some slack because he was a cop ,, it was handled poorly...by him.

he has no police authority outside his jurisdiction in FL when off duty...

A security guard doing the same thing would have had to bond out.

I understand what you are saying. The cop did wrong and should have to pay for it.

Though it is still my opinion that the trooper handled the stop improperly. I am a trooper myself, so I know where she is coming from, but if I were the supervisor reviewing this stop her and I would be having a long talk.

4949shooter
10-30-2011, 17:10
I agree that both were in the wrong. First of all, the Miami officer was clearly wrong for driving 120 mph to an off duty gig. However, IF the FHP officer thought she had a stolen police vehicle or a police impersonator, she had no business leaving cover and approaching the vehicle. Where I work, there is no such thing as a "half ass" high risk stop. You either have something or you don't. If you think you have something then you go the full route. Get back up, call them out, prone them, handcuff them and clear the car. You can dust them off later if you need to.

If I were the Miami officer I probably would have pulled over immediately if nothing else, to determine if she was actually after me or perhaps someone ahead of me. It probably would not have gotten this much out of hand if he had immediately shut down and pulled over. Heck I have been pulled over by CHP for speeding on the way home. You pull over as fast and as safely as you can and you take your lumps. 99% of the time, the officer will be courteous and it won't end badly with you being handcuffed. Now if you just keep speeding and pretend it's not you they are after, you probably will get proned out and cuffed up.

Finally I will just say this (feel free to disagree with me here). I'm a big car and motorcycle person. Though I believe high speeds are for the track, 120 mph is not all that scary in a modern car. I agree it is ridiculous to do it on surface streets, but on an open track, I've done 160+ in both cars and bikes and did not feel the least bit out of control. Again, not saying it was wise to do it on the highway, but a lot of folks think 100+ is just so out of control and reckless, but I'm here to tell you that it is controllable in a modern car or bike.

Yep I agree.

kenpoprofessor
10-30-2011, 18:25
Well geez, with some of the responses here I'll give another analogy.

Let's say I see a guy shooting up some mall in Phoenix. I think to myself, hmm, seems like just another gunnie gettting some target time, nothing to worry about or report.

Same risk of death for the motorists on that freeway, he could've just been shooting randomly at traffic with that speed and somehow, some of you guys just excuse that behavior. :faint:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

jenrick
10-30-2011, 18:57
I've pulled over my fair share of LEO's running fast to something in their POV's or unmarked. I've had exactly one be dick to me, and he still got a warning. 120MPH (so let's call that about 40 over), would certainly have been an ass chewing, and maybe a call to a supervisor, but no way in hell I'd have hooked someone for it. I also would never pull over a marked unit, code lights or no. I might call it in to verify that it wasn't stolen, and I might send something up my chain in regards to their driving, but I certainly wouldn't try to stop it.

I second 4949shooter in his statement that there is also no half assing a felony stop. If you think the car is stolen, then do it right with backup. If you don't think the car is stolen, then WTF are you doing with your gun out? I'd eat my rookie alive for going up to a potentially stolen vehicle solo, and I'd do the same for walking up to a normal traffic stop with his gun out for no articulatable reason.

-Jenrick

COLOSHOOTR
10-30-2011, 20:41
Frankly, it's attitude like what is typed here that cause me to take a dimmer view of the profession as a whole.

Let's flip it around.

FedEx ground truck goes barreling along at a high rate of speed. Officer sees the truck and tries to stop it. It fails to yield and speeds get to over 100 mph. The truck finally slows down and then stops. The uniformed driver tells you he is late for a delivery job. Do you just ignore it because he is a uniformed FedEx driver driving a marked FedEx truck? Or do you hook his dumb butt for reckless?

We are expected to hold the higher standard in our professional lives and even our off duty lives. That is a given of this profession we are in. Running to an off duty gig at reckless speeds and doing reckless driving, marked unit or POV, is unprofessional. I see this as one cop having a higher professional standard than another. What I see is a Miami cop acting like a reckless idiot, giving good professional cops in that region another black eye. How do we explain to someone we stop for reckless driving why we are hooking them but not the cop just because he's bombing down the road in a marked unit with a uniform on?

Again, I would suggest that this is not the first time this "cop" has driven like this. It just so happened, like a DUI, that he got caught. Over my career, I have seen my share of arrogant cops who drive like a-hole and expect the badge and the car to get them out of trouble. All the while not realizing that it's stuff like this that diminishes our profession.


If you read the first part of my post you'll see I am in agreement that he needs to get some discipline if he even gets to keep his job. Yes that kind of driving is uncalled for but so was the conduct of the FHP trooper. Both of them contributed to making every single Officer look bad.

As for your Fed Ex example do I have a similar UPS truck to stop him in or am I still a Police Officer in a Marked Car here? If we're saying a Fed Ex driver kept on driving like an A hole when a Police Officer in a marked car tried to stop him that is comparing apples to oranges. Yes the Fed Ex driver would get arrested for eluding and wreckess driving if we were allowed to chase but that would have been considered a pursuit so I'd actually have watched him drive off at 100MPH if he didn't stop per policy. Also, look at the entire video. You'll see that the she never was really that close to him till a point shortly before he actually stopped and you'll also see that she actually turned off her lights for a short period of time during the "pursuit".

Lets compare a similar type situation instead... Lets say you're running to a LEGIT (Not some BS Off Duty gig) call in a marked car and a Trooper tried to stop you in your local jurisdiction. Would you even stop? Would you be thinking WTF is up with that A-Hole? I'm sure this guy was thinking no way thats for me in a marked car, even though he had no reason to be driving like that.Either way there were better ways for all parties involved to handle that incident. A hefty ticket and call to a MDPD supervisor as well as FHP supervisor would have been a much better way to handle it. Maybe even get IAB involved if you don't think the Supervisor you contacted is going to deal with it. Listen to that trooper one minute she saying you scared me I thought this car was stolen then later on she goes y'all come though here all the time, this Miami Police car and we never catch it. What was one was it? Was the car stolen or was she just pissed off that some Local cop drove fast through her area? I think we all know the answer. If this entire situation does not tick you guys off ON BOTH ENDS then there is something wrong here.... We all need to support each other because now days most of us don't get the support from our command staff or the media. Yes the Miami cop is an idiot but in my opinion the FHP trooper is a bigger one for the poor handing of the situation causing it to blow up into this media fiasco.


This reminds me of an incident involving a SWAT Officer out here. The SWAT cop got a call out and was en-route to the scene. He was in an unmarked SUV that had City Goverment plates on it. The officer was in full uniform with his helmet and armor on the seat next to him. He was stopped by another agency for speeding (the violation occured in the other jurisdiction but stop was made in SWAT cops city). The SWAT cop told local guy that he was on a call out and the local guy said thats nice I need your license so I can write your ticket. In the end it was a badge heavy local guy being a A hole to a fellow Officer who was on his way to a call.

Second situation a friend of mine is speeding to work in personal car w/ full uniform 15mph over posted. Gets stopped by SO Deputy who draws down on him asking what all that hardware was for. While talking down on the Officer the SO Deputy holds him for 45 minutes writing the ticket and then proceeds to spend another 10 minutes lecturing him and "explaining the ticket." While pissed that he was getting a ticket my friend was willing to take the ticket and pay it because he admits he was speeding but there was no need to hold him for almost an hour and to lecture and explain the ticket. That stop was totally ground for a complaint and my friend did not do that because he feels it's better to support our own rather then to get him in trouble even if he's a jerk.

And NO I would not leave that trooper hanging when she requested emergency cover but she had better not expect any other help from me.

GPalmer
10-30-2011, 21:13
...
This reminds me of an incident involving a SWAT Officer out here. The SWAT cop got a call out and was en-route to the scene. He was in an unmarked SUV that had City Goverment plates on it. The officer was in full uniform with his helmet and armor on the seat next to him. He was stopped by another agency for speeding (the violation occured in the other jurisdiction but stop was made in SWAT cops city). The SWAT cop told local guy that he was on a call out and the local guy said thats nice I need your license so I can write your ticket. In the end it was a badge heavy local guy being a A hole to a fellow Officer who was on his way to a call.
...
That would be very wrong. The SWAT officer was exceeding the speed limit for an emergency, which is exactly why you're permitted to exceed the speed limit. Impeding him placed the public in greater jeopardy. Screw the niceties of interdepartmental cooperation, that is behavior directly counter to your oath to protect and serve.

kenpoprofessor
10-30-2011, 21:34
That would be very wrong. The SWAT officer was exceeding the speed limit for an emergency, which is exactly why you're permitted to exceed the speed limit. Impeding him placed the public in greater jeopardy. Screw the niceties of interdepartmental cooperation, that is behavior directly counter to your oath to protect and serve.

Nothing like that in our AZ Peace Officer's oath.



Oath...
I solemnly swear that I will support the constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of Arizona, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and defend them against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I will faithfully and unpartially discharge the duties of a peace officer to the best of my ability, so help me God.

Technically, you only have to protect those in your custody, the SCOTUS has ruled on this issue a few times ie. Gonzales V. Castle Rock.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

GPalmer
10-30-2011, 21:37
Nothing like that in our AZ Peace Officer's oath.
Did this take place in AZ? Protecting and serving the good of society is exactly why we have law enforcement. And the rulings from the Supreme Court I am aware of deal with whether or not the law enforcement officer is responsible for protecting a particular person not society as a whole.

GPalmer
10-30-2011, 21:49
......

kenpoprofessor
10-30-2011, 21:51
Did this take place in AZ? Protecting and serving the good of society is exactly why we have law enforcement. And the rulings from the Supreme Court I am aware of deal with whether or not the law enforcement officer is responsible for protecting a particular person not society as a whole.

Law Enforcement= Enforcing the law

Peace Officer= Keeping the Peace

Big difference.

It's your job as a POST certified officer to keep the peace, and while that includes enforcement of laws, protecting and serving is not the primary purpose.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/peace-officer/

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peace+officer

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-peace-officer.htm

http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/peace-officer.html


Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

L-1
10-30-2011, 22:25
I posted this in another forum. I'll repost it here as food for thought.

I have no personal knowledge of this incident and I am not defending anyone. But, as an old guy who has been around for a while and seen a few of these things go down, let me suggest this is what probably happened.

Trooper is tooling down the road at 0-dark thirty, minding her own business when a Miami unit blows by her at 120 MPH weaving in and out of traffic. It's not unusual to see local units using the freeway. It's not unusual to see them running 10 or 20 MPH over the sped limit, but 120 MPH and weaving in and out of traffic - WTF????? An officer must be getting the shiat kicked out of him somewhere down the road and really need help. As with most highway patrol agencies, she tries to catch up with the Miami unit and has her dispatch call his dispatch to see what's going on. (Translation - Obviously you have an emergency, can the Highway Patrol help out?)

Much to her surprise, Miami says they have no emergencies in progress and they have no idea why their unit is doing 120 MPH and driving like an idiot. Now the trooper has to consider whether the patrol car is an unreported stolen, or being driven under duress, or being operated by an officer who may have flipped out, so she lights him up. Instead of yielding to lights and siren, the local PD unit continues at 120, weaving in and out of traffic as if evading for 12 miles. For all intent and purpose, the trooper is now in pursuit, her dispatch has the emergency in progress tone broadcasting on her radio frequency and members of the public and news media who are listening are fully aware that FHP is chasing a Miami PD unit at high speeds that is failing to yield.

Twelve miles later the local unit finally pulls over. On contacting the driver, the trooper discovers it is someone in police uniform. Given that this is such unusual conduct for a police officer, she has to consider several possibilities such as whether this is an officer who just flipped out, or an impersonator who may have stolen the vehicle. So, she hooks him up until she can sort things out and determine his true status.

Because this was broadcast as a pursuit, her supervisor shows up at the termination point. Because a Miami PD unit is involved, a supervisor from that agency also shows up at the termination point. Wiser supervisory (and possibly managerial) heads from both agencies get together at the scene and jointly determine the following:

1. The Miami officer was driving like an idiot in a marked police car without cause.
2. Whether intentionally or through inattention, he failed to yield to a pursuing FHP vehicle for 12 miles.
3. This got broadcast as a pursuit on the FHP radio, which the press and the public are now aware of. There is no way to unring that bell.
4. It is all captured on the FHP dashcam video which is public record. Given that the press and public are now aware of this event, there is no way that video is going to disappear.
5. Were this a civilian driver, he would have been booked for the violations in question, Given the negative publicity this is going to generate, FHP is going to be subject to severe criticism if they do not cite the officer at a bare minimum.
6. Both FHP and Miami Supervision/Management jointly agree the Miami officer is going to get a cite from FHP in addition to any internal discipline he receives from his own department.
7. The FHP trooper is directed to cite the officer by her supervisor based on what is worked out with Miami PD

I can almost guarantee you the final outcome was not the trooper's call. It was a joint decision that was agreed upon by higher ups from the two agencies involved and was based in part upon the publicity they expect to be generated by this event

GPalmer
10-30-2011, 23:32
Law Enforcement= Enforcing the law

Peace Officer= Keeping the Peace

Big difference.

It's your job as a POST certified officer to keep the peace, and while that includes enforcement of laws, protecting and serving is not the primary purpose.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/peace-officer/

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peace+officer

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-peace-officer.htm

http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/peace-officer.html


Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

You seem to be falling victim to the same basic misunderstanding as the Miami officer. Police officers are allowed to exceed the posted limits in emergencies not because they have a badge but because them doing so represents more of a positive for the general public's safety than a negative.

In your case, you seem to be missing the fundamental point that MOST laws exist for the protection of the public. And keeping the peace most certainly is protection of the public. Why can't I drive 120+ MPH down the highway, because it is a threat to the safety of other drivers. No, you're not responsible for protecting driver 47 that the speeding officer passed but in general you are responsible for the public's safety, otherwise you wouldn't be there, the speed limit wouldn't be there and the power to arrest another citizen wouldn't be there. So far as POST certification and what it means, here is LAPD's mission statement (http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd):


The Mission Statement of the LAPD
It is the mission of the Los Angeles Police Department to safeguard the lives and property of the people we serve, to reduce the incidence and fear of crime, and to enhance public safety while working with the diverse communities to improve their quality of life. Our mandate is to do so with honor and integrity, while at all times conducting ourselves with the highest ethical standards to maintain public confidence.

Here from the Colorado POST manual (http://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/uploads/2011%20MANUAL_4.pdf), which is where the incident appears to have taken place, at the top of the Law Enforcement Ethics section:

As a Certified Police Officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property;

Sure does sound like protect and serve to me.

bci21984
10-31-2011, 00:23
Both of these "cops" were idiots.

The dumbass driving 120 for a side job should be suspended for a few days and denied side jobs for a while.

If it isn't reported as stolen, the FHP trooper had no business chasing down a marked patrol car. For all she knew he was trying to catch up to a vehicle without alerting the vehicle to his presence.



Regardless of how stupid my reason is for speeding, if I'm in a marked patrol car, I wouldn't stop either until I was ready. And once I got to my destination I would've *****ed out the trooper. I don't usually drive 120 without lights on, but if I do, it's none of HP's concern. Instead of trying to make a traffic stop, she should've been concerned with how she could backup the officer in the event the **** was about the hit the fan. When I see a cop hauling ass, my first thought isn't "how can I stop him/her or get a contact/ meet my quota?", it's "I wonder what's wrong and how I can help?"

Once the trooper saw it was a uniformed officer, at the most she should've asked his name and called for a supervisor. She was WAY out of line handcuffing him. If you want to be pissed off, be pissed off. But cuffing a uniformed officer? That's borderline insanity.

Once I got out of my car and she told me to turn around, I would've told her she's crazy as hell. If she touched me or tried to cuff me I would've put her ass on the ground. You also DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS ON A UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER!! That's just common sense. If you are with another agency, but do not have a warrant for that officer, you had best stay hands off. If you want arrest a uniformed officer, you had best be holding a warrant.

The entire ordeal could've been avoided by driving 65mph. However once the situation got started, the trooper handled it about as poorly as possible. She went into it with the attitude of "He's speeding on MY highway, he can't do that, I'm gonna stop him!" instead of "I wonder what's wrong?". Once she figured out the guy was a jackass, she should've called her supervisor, his supervisor, *****ed at the guy, and had everything handled internally.




Long ago in Texas there were pissing contests like this between agencies. An officer would write another officer in a marked car, and it was legal. Officers would arrest uniformed officers for unlawful carrying a weapon(before we had CHLs and authority 24/7) while on their way to/from work, and it was legal. City, county, and state would all fight over who did what and who was a real cop where. It was bad at times when my dad was an officer. Fortunately that has changed. Now you can't arrest an officer for UCW, and one marked vehicle doesn't have authority to stop another marked vehicle. Now days one of our guys could crisscross the county with another cop trying to stop them all day long, then flip them the bird when they stopped for gas and a drink, and then take off again. And no other officer would assist unless the car being chased was confirmed stolen. If the officer initiated the "traffic stop" has a problem with it they can handle it through internal channels.

Occasionally we have a dispute with another local officer who takes it upon himself to radar every other cop and then file a complaint against them. It's annoying, but we just ignore him and do our jobs. But even he isn't insane enough to try to chase us or arrest us. Even he knows that could end in his own bloodshed.

I ate lunch with a trooper friend of mine and we talked about this. He said he can't believe a trooper tried to stop a marked car in the first place and was dumbfounded when he heard how it turned out. He also agreed with me about being arrested by another officer while in uniform. He would use as much force as necessary to keep Robocop from putting him in handcuffs. At that point you kinda have to assume that the officer chasing a marked car and trying to arrest a uniformed officer is either an impersonator or not mentally stable and that your life may be in danger if cuffed and disarmed.



After thinking on it a while, I think he needs a suspension, no side jobs for a good long while, another EVOC course as well as a basic liabilities course about the dangers of high speed driving, and a swift kick in the balls. She needs to be spoken to about minding her own business and not worrying about what the PD/SO are up to, changing her attitude from "I'm gonna get you" to "I need to see if help is needed", then told how dangerous and stupid trying to arrest a uniformed officer is, and informed how lucky she was to get those handcuffs on without being injured.

You scare me a great deal. You CANNOT honestly say that you would not have secured "the officer" of the car first and then identified him. You DO NOT know who he is, but you DO know he has at least one gun on/about his person. When securing said "officer", with your mentality, it wouldve progressed to a force on force situation. At least the MPD officer was smart enough to not resist or "put her on the ground.". If you happen to find an impersonator that you dont know is an impersonator but commiting obvious crimes in your presence are you not going to intervene, or is the uniform going to make you put on blinders.

SAR
10-31-2011, 00:55
You scare me a great deal. You CANNOT honestly say that you would not have secured "the officer" of the car first and then identified him. You DO NOT know who he is, but you DO know he has at least one gun on/about his person. When securing said "officer", with your mentality, it wouldve progressed to a force on force situation. At least the MPD officer was smart enough to not resist or "put her on the ground.". If you happen to find an impersonator that you dont know is an impersonator but commiting obvious crimes in your presence are you not going to intervene, or is the uniform going to make you put on blinders.

You know what? I might have secured the Miami PD officer.. hard to say, because I wasn't there. But if I thought something was wrong, I damn sure wouldn't have left the cover of my FHP Cruiser to go make an approach on an armed suspect. I would have waited for back-up to arrive then I would have called the driver out. You can't have it both ways. Either there is something very wrong or it was an over-reaction. Let's go with something is wrong and you need to secure the driver.... Ok then. Do it right. DO NOT HALF ASS a high-risk stop. I know, I keep saying it, but on my agency, this female officer would have been as much vilified for her crappy tactics as the Miami guy for letting it happen.

bci21984
10-31-2011, 01:00
You know what? I might have secured the Miami PD officer.. hard to say, because I wasn't there. But if I thought something was wrong, I damn sure wouldn't have left the cover of my FHP Cruiser to go make an approach on an armed suspect. I would have waited for back-up to arrive then I would have called the driver out. You can't have it both ways. Either there is something very wrong or it was an over-reaction. Let's go with something is wrong and you need to secure the driver.... Ok then. Do it right. DO NOT HALF ASS a high-risk stop. I know, I keep saying it, but on my agency, this female officer would have been as much vilified for her crappy tactics as the Miami guy for letting it happen.

Totally agree, why she approached and approached alone is beyond my knowledge, she shouldved "felony" stopped him with backup/cover and then identified him. But at least he was secured until he was ID'd.

SAR
10-31-2011, 01:22
Totally agree, why she approached and approached alone is beyond my knowledge, she shouldved "felony" stopped him with backup/cover and then identified him. But at least he was secured until he was ID'd.

Again.. I wasn't there and you know what they say about Monday morning quarterbacks, but after having watched the video a few times, my gut tells me she knew damn well she was dealing with a Miami Police Officer... I think if she seriously thought it was a stolen cruiser she would have waited until back-up arrived. My take is that she made her half-ass approach because she let her anger get the best of her and she wanted to show this off-duty officer who was boss on the highway. She knew damn well it would be embarrassing and demeaning for the guy and probably ruin his career, but she did not care. She put on a show of indignation and in the end, she got the desired result, which is to have half a nation of cops talking about what a ****** this Miami guy was....

Anyways, he messed up, so he will suffer the consequences. But I would not want this female in my troop. She can't control herself.

opelwasp
10-31-2011, 06:26
There is alot here I agree with and alot I don't. Yes she was justified in stopping the marked unit, yes he was driving like an ass, and yes she was in the right to handcuff his ass. But, the situation was so poorly handled. It doesn't matter if I was there or not or standing in her shoes; there is no way in hell I am going to approach a marked unit that could have been stolen without all the backup I can get. That is an enormous officer safety issue. Going all John Wayne on the guy is stupid and there is no way she can justify approaching the driver like that on a high risk stop. You don't go charging in, you wait behind cover. She was so scared? Puh-leese, spare me the bu--sh-t! If the car had been stolen, she would probably be sucking down tactical buckshot, to her stupidity. Again this was a high risk stop, what the hell is she doing approaching a car that has a 99% chance of having a gun in it, unless she did not really feel she was in danger, and just had some balls to bust?

As far as hand cuffing him? Well sure I'd do it after backup arrived. Then ******-bag can explain the situation to my supervisor and he can make the decisions he gets paid the big bucks for.

As far as retard getting in trouble, sure take his job, hell prosecute him if ya want. Arrest him and transport? No way. Write the report, recommend a warrant and send it to the DA. The guy's career will be over, but no sense ruining his life.

CW Mock
10-31-2011, 09:55
Wow …

I don’t even know where to begin with what a cluster **** that was.
The Miami jet-pilot was a dumbass, and there just ain’t any other way to explain that. He was late, rolled the dice and came up pretty short – obviously. That sucks for him, but he should have known better. What he did makes us all look like clowns, and there is no taking that back. If the admin wants to skin him alive now, I can understand it. It’s good to see everyone here thinks he is a moron for doing what he did, and has whatever administratively coming to him is well deserved. I have seen guys speeding to and from off duty gigs, and a few have been caught and hammered by admin (in my agency and other agencies.) It’s not like it’s a fantastic new crime of the century and unheard of. What makes this go off the meter and peg in the dumbass zone is the response from the other party, said FHP “Trooper.”

Wow.

As a Trooper, from the video I tried to put myself in that position. I’m a Trooper, and I am sure our basic responsibilities are similar – traffic enforcement, accident investigation and criminal interdiction and general law enforcement. At least that is what I do a lot of at my post, which is not metro Miami. They might just do traffic and crashes there, who knows … I also try not to second guess cops, don’t matter who they work for or where. But this thread got my rusty little wheels turning, and I thought I’d spew some crap out too.

So if I got it right … here I am … rolling along in my fully marked CSP/FHP car, working early morning traffic, which at 06:30 is probably a great time for late DUI and Drug Interdiction. When all of a sudden, out of the blue a fully marked city PD car screams by me down the freeway ... In MY car, I have the local radios and I scan them. Barring I did not miss a call, or my own radio didn’t walk over the scanned channels, I have a rough idea of what’s going on around me in the county and cities I cover. This time, let’s say I have no idea what could be going on, other than a marked car roared by me. Personally, two things go through my mind (as its happened to me before) – 1) what is going on, and 2) can I help? Usually, I try to solve that problem two ways – catching up, and using the radio. Because I work a pretty rural area, and we all get along really well here, I can communicate directly with the county/city dispatch, or ask my Comm Center to call and ask. I’ll have to guess that because Miami is already a busy place, they don’t encourage a State car trying to talk on their radio – IF the state car even has the radio to do it.

Now … for whatever reason, let’s say City/County says there is no emergency, and they have no cars running hard to an emergency call. Stolen cop car? Maybe … Now it’s crunch time. Do I light it up, or try another option … like relay the car number or plate and have that looked into? I think I’d try, maybe it is boosted and nobody knows it yet. Okay, so City/County is unaware of any stolen squad cars. They have no calls in progress with a car heading down the highway at warp, let alone one with that car number.

Well … now I guess I decide to light it up, and here it keeps going. Weird, and a bucket of not good. It’s a cop car, so not only does it look weird, there is probably a gun or two or three in the car. Nobody knows who it is, or why it’s there. All right … this is going to end well, or badly. Not really much in between, right? Off we go to the races, and 12 miles and 7 minutes later it FINALLY stops, on the inside shoulder. Now we come to a crossroads … what DO we do? John Wayne up, “assault” the car alone screaming loud, shrilly commands while drawing our shooting iron, OR .. initiate a high risk stop, wait for cover and do it BY THE BOOK. If I got myself this far, have emergency traffic on the radio and have been marked as in pursuit, everybody should be coming anyways. It might be a little while (in my stickville area) or almost no time (as I see in cities). Either way, it’s just time, and I have all the time in the world, safe behind cover with my blasters.
So we initiate the high risk stop, get the guy out and lo and behold, it’s an off duty guy in uniform, late to his off duty gig. Not a whacker, not a guy off the deep end, just a dumbass that pulled the pin on his career (or just made it, depending on your flavor of admin). Everybody breathes a sigh of relief, puts away their toys and lets supervision deal with it. Probably a lot of supervisors from both agencies headed that way, of not on scene already. Would I feel bad that I probably just got a guy really hemmed up – yep, probably. Would I be really glad it was just the department dumbass, and not a whacker or deep-ender? Damn right. Would I lecture, talk down or otherwise berate the other guy? Nope, not my place.

What I think I see here is a flagrant disregard for officer safety, a surprising lack of “rolling investigation” or patience, and a real sense of superiority or an axe to grind with the local guys. I say that because of the two opposite comments along the lines of 1) “I thought it was a stolen car” and 2) “You guys do this all the time, and we never catch you.” I never heard many attempts or mention of effort to try and learn if it was stolen beforehand, and seriously … marked cars go flying through your patrol zone all the time, and this is the best way you can think of to address that problem? If it’s an issue, and it might be – let your overpaid, under-worked supervisors do some following up. Initiating a pursuit, throwing safety out the window, humiliating both agencies and acting like a psycho is not the way to do it … in my opinion. Not sure if that was the intended plan of action, but that’s how it looks now!

I am gonna say … it’s a huge leap to take, initiating a stop on a marked car. Given the circumstance, and then the fact it just hauled ass … I can see the emergency traffic. But then ending is what amazes me. Instead of doing it right, its half assed. I can’t believe that any state agency at least trains that kind of response at the end of a pursuit. No offense guys, but in MY area, that’s something I have come to expect and see from SOME of the local cars, no ours. WE don’t train to do what, and as a state cop looking at another one, I can’t imagine they do either! WTF?! And I KNOW that some agencies in my state and around the country (DPD, LAPD, SDPD) have some SERIOUS felony stop training and experience, so you know what I am talking about. SAR hit it perfectly – there is no such thing as a “half risk felony whatever stop.” It’s all or nothing, just like we are trained. Sometimes it is a cop off the deep end. One of our guys went nuts a few years back, lead the locals on a chase and suicide'd out in a parking lot. It can happen to ANY agency unfortunately. Just a side effect of having human beings serving as police. Not perfect, no matter how hard we try to screen for them.

The verdict is in, and we’ll chalk this one up to: goofballs. One’s going to get hammered, and the other one needs some remedial, and to do some ride time with the city or county to learn about the other side of the fence. I think that she would find its a little different, but that everyone bleeds the same blue. It gets pretty damn lonely all by yourself in the saddle of that high horse.

Now some parting thoughts brought up by other posts …

I forget who it was, but the guy that said he’d knock the Trooper on her ass. Sure dude, whatever. See how that ends up. In that situation you are the “bad guy” – the car in front, the one being chased, and she is the “good guy” and likely has more “good guys” coming. If I rolled up as number 2, and saw a guy assaulting the officer I KNEW was the primary, I’d do everything I could to put a sudden stop to it, and I can imagine just about every other cop I know would too. Given the context of the situation though, the guy in front would know he was wrong, and should just keep his yap shut.

Now if I were randomly just patrolling, and all of a sudden another car just tried to light me up and stop me, you can bet I am gonna be on my radio, and heading towards a welcoming committee so we can all figure out what’s going on. If I am legitimately patrolling, not breaking any laws, etc … there is no way in hell I am stopping for anybody’s lights or marked car without some kind of radio or phone explanation as to why. Stopping and physically having to fight another “officer” is bad tactics too in my opinion. I think this guy in the video stopped because he knew he was in the wrong, and that the other car was determined to stop him. By continuing, he was just digging a deeper hole. Unfortunately for him the hole he dug up to that point is probably deep enough to be his grave already.

Looks like everyone in that video went a little off the deep end. For the guys that work there, I hope it doesn’t end up as some stupid “turf war” that everyone loses. It amazes me to see that it still happens in this day and age.

My opinion only, cost you what it took to log in and read it.

Bruce M
10-31-2011, 11:24
... Though I believe high speeds are for the track, 120 mph is not all that scary in a modern car. ...


I agree that in some/many modern cars 120 is not scary on a track. On the other hand in my limited experience a Crown Vic can get a bit twitchy somewhere into three figures. And anything at twice the speed of other traffic on the road can be a bit nerve wracking, if for no other reason than not knowing what other drivers may do.

In any year lately, in the line of duty deaths seem to have a notable fraction of those that are traffic crash related. I am rather quite sure that I would not have wanted to be in either of those Crown Vics at those speeds in the rain. Neither tardiness, nor traffic infractions, nor the possibility of a stolen sedan (that has not been BOLOed as wanted in the injury or worse of an officer) seems worth the risk to me.

SAR
10-31-2011, 11:33
I agree that in some/many modern cars 120 is not scary on a track. On the other hand in my limited experience a Crown Vic can get a bit twitchy somewhere into three figures. And anything at twice the speed of other traffic on the road can be a bit nerve wracking, if for no other reason than not knowing what other drivers may do.

In any year lately, in the line of duty deaths seem to have a notable fraction of those that are traffic crash related. I am rather quite sure that I would not have wanted to be in either of those Crown Vics at those speeds in the rain. Neither tardiness, nor traffic infractions, nor the possibility of a stolen sedan (that has not been BOLOed as wanted in the injury or worse of an officer) seems worth the risk to me.

One of the reasons I mention this is because of the hypocrasy I see at times. I hear 100 miles per hour as some sort of threshold where all hell breaks loose and the violator is demonized as some sort of criminal. YET, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen officers driving warp speed in the triple digits to get to a help call or officer down call. Would it help to tell these fools to slow it down? I dunno.. they are more than likely to snap back some smart ass comment about how if I really cared about an officer's safety, I wouldn't criticize their speed. OK, I get that. That's why I do not try and argue. I merely point out that 100 miles per hour is no magic number, and that given the right tools and circumstances it doesn't make you any some sort of whack to exceed it.

GackMan
10-31-2011, 13:12
I'm interested to hear the radio traffic.

Bruce M
10-31-2011, 15:04
I agree 100 is at best arbritrary. And 30 over on a limited access divided highway is probably not as dangerous as 30 over on a road with side and cross streets, etc. I am also perplexed with the reasoning that 117 is a policy violation we can deal with but turning lights and siren on when not authorized is not an "acceptable" violation.

Bruce M
10-31-2011, 17:04
... I'm shocked that a PD officer can take a marked ride and work security 20 miles outside the city. ..

He was going from his home (outside jurisdiction) to the job which is within the City of Miami.

Law Enforcement= Enforcing the law

Peace Officer= Keeping the Peace

Big difference.

It's your job as a POST certified officer to keep the peace, and while that includes enforcement of laws, protecting and serving is not the primary purpose.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/peace-officer/

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peace+officer

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-peace-officer.htm

http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/peace-officer.html


Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

No offense, but I suspect most officers, peace or law enforcement, might consider the two terms essentially interchangeable and that even more define their job from state statute and written department policy
as opposed to something from "wise geek."

Wow …

I don’t even know where to begin with what a cluster **** ... It might be a little while (in my stickville area) or almost no time (as I see in cities). .
....

Pretty much an urban area (both counties have taken UASI grants for instance.) While another trooper was probably some time away as they (FHP) has been short staffed for the last three decades at least, most likely on duty or off duty officers going to/from work would have been there in seconds to a minute or three. I agree a safer approach could have been done after backup(s) arrived with minimal time delay.

steveksux
10-31-2011, 17:23
I'm not a slow driver by any means, but when I visited Florida a couple of times, I was surprised how fast people drive on those freeways.

So I say as long as the trooper was doing 120 in the right lane so people could pass... :whistling:

Randy

DaBigBR
10-31-2011, 20:54
Law Enforcement= Enforcing the law

Peace Officer= Keeping the Peace

Big difference.

It's your job as a POST certified officer to keep the peace, and while that includes enforcement of laws, protecting and serving is not the primary purpose.


You're really splitting hairs, here. I guess we'll all have to drop the acronym "LEO" and use "PO", which may be confusing since some might think it means "police officer", "probation officer", "parole officer", "post office", or "pissed off." On second thought, we'd better go with PO/LEO, but then people would think we didn't know how to spell "polio."

WarCry
10-31-2011, 22:30
... or "pissed off." On second thought, we'd better go with PO/LEO, but then people would think we didn't know how to spell "polio."

Or PO/LEO is used to represent cops that are fed up with others trying to define their jobs and their roles?



:cool:

larry_minn
10-31-2011, 22:59
I find the responses almost as troubling as the orig story...
I am NOT a LEO. I have driven a couple squad cars on public roads. (with permision) You do realize how easy it is (ok maybe its changed with modern anti theft stuff) to steal a squad car. (esp if left running with just doors locked)

I must admit when I first read the posts I though of "smoky and the Bandit" Where one group used a squad car, (and another a ambulance) Because "nobody would every pull over a squad,ambulance."

Some folks have honor. Its what you do when nobody is looking. Driving 120 (even 80) without lights/siren and a valid reason should get the (hopefully former) officer stopped.
If I speed, refuse to stop when a marked squad car chases me (with lights, siren) I expect I will look down the barrel of a gun. I also expect I will smell the road, get a "fashion accessory" placed on my wrists. (that I can't see because its behind my back but I will KNOW they are there)
I expect I will get some pics taken, maybe be given a place to sleep the night.

I didn't watch link (dial up) but it sure sounds like the lady Officer is a keeper.

WarCry
10-31-2011, 23:13
I must admit when I first read the posts I though of "smoky and the Bandit" Where one group used a squad car, (and another a ambulance) Because "nobody would every pull over a squad,ambulance."


I think you may be talking about Cannonball Run, not Smokey & the Bandit...

opelwasp
11-01-2011, 03:55
I didn't watch link (dial up) but it sure sounds like the lady Officer is a keeper.

Well Mr. Dial Up, if you haven't watched the video, I can't imagine how your opinion of the incident or the thread means a hill of beans. And I'm sorry could you tell me how easy it is to steal a patrol car? You seem to have an abundance of experience, or you're simply talking out of your ass.

wrenrj1
11-01-2011, 18:38
Wow …

I don’t even know where to begin with what a cluster **** that was.
The Miami jet-pilot was a dumbass, and there just ain’t any other way to explain that. He was late, rolled the dice and came up pretty short – obviously. That sucks for him, but he should have known better. What he did makes us all look like clowns, and there is no taking that back. If the admin wants to skin him alive now, I can understand it. It’s good to see everyone here thinks he is a moron for doing what he did, and has whatever administratively coming to him is well deserved. I have seen guys speeding to and from off duty gigs, and a few have been caught and hammered by admin (in my agency and other agencies.) It’s not like it’s a fantastic new crime of the century and unheard of. What makes this go off the meter and peg in the dumbass zone is the response from the other party, said FHP “Trooper.”

Wow.

As a Trooper, from the video I tried to put myself in that position. I’m a Trooper, and I am sure our basic responsibilities are similar – traffic enforcement, accident investigation and criminal interdiction and general law enforcement. At least that is what I do a lot of at my post, which is not metro Miami. They might just do traffic and crashes there, who knows … I also try not to second guess cops, don’t matter who they work for or where. But this thread got my rusty little wheels turning, and I thought I’d spew some crap out too.

So if I got it right … here I am … rolling along in my fully marked CSP/FHP car, working early morning traffic, which at 06:30 is probably a great time for late DUI and Drug Interdiction. When all of a sudden, out of the blue a fully marked city PD car screams by me down the freeway ... In MY car, I have the local radios and I scan them. Barring I did not miss a call, or my own radio didn’t walk over the scanned channels, I have a rough idea of what’s going on around me in the county and cities I cover. This time, let’s say I have no idea what could be going on, other than a marked car roared by me. Personally, two things go through my mind (as its happened to me before) – 1) what is going on, and 2) can I help? Usually, I try to solve that problem two ways – catching up, and using the radio. Because I work a pretty rural area, and we all get along really well here, I can communicate directly with the county/city dispatch, or ask my Comm Center to call and ask. I’ll have to guess that because Miami is already a busy place, they don’t encourage a State car trying to talk on their radio – IF the state car even has the radio to do it.

Now … for whatever reason, let’s say City/County says there is no emergency, and they have no cars running hard to an emergency call. Stolen cop car? Maybe … Now it’s crunch time. Do I light it up, or try another option … like relay the car number or plate and have that looked into? I think I’d try, maybe it is boosted and nobody knows it yet. Okay, so City/County is unaware of any stolen squad cars. They have no calls in progress with a car heading down the highway at warp, let alone one with that car number.

Well … now I guess I decide to light it up, and here it keeps going. Weird, and a bucket of not good. It’s a cop car, so not only does it look weird, there is probably a gun or two or three in the car. Nobody knows who it is, or why it’s there. All right … this is going to end well, or badly. Not really much in between, right? Off we go to the races, and 12 miles and 7 minutes later it FINALLY stops, on the inside shoulder. Now we come to a crossroads … what DO we do? John Wayne up, “assault” the car alone screaming loud, shrilly commands while drawing our shooting iron, OR .. initiate a high risk stop, wait for cover and do it BY THE BOOK. If I got myself this far, have emergency traffic on the radio and have been marked as in pursuit, everybody should be coming anyways. It might be a little while (in my stickville area) or almost no time (as I see in cities). Either way, it’s just time, and I have all the time in the world, safe behind cover with my blasters.
So we initiate the high risk stop, get the guy out and lo and behold, it’s an off duty guy in uniform, late to his off duty gig. Not a whacker, not a guy off the deep end, just a dumbass that pulled the pin on his career (or just made it, depending on your flavor of admin). Everybody breathes a sigh of relief, puts away their toys and lets supervision deal with it. Probably a lot of supervisors from both agencies headed that way, of not on scene already. Would I feel bad that I probably just got a guy really hemmed up – yep, probably. Would I be really glad it was just the department dumbass, and not a whacker or deep-ender? Damn right. Would I lecture, talk down or otherwise berate the other guy? Nope, not my place.

What I think I see here is a flagrant disregard for officer safety, a surprising lack of “rolling investigation” or patience, and a real sense of superiority or an axe to grind with the local guys. I say that because of the two opposite comments along the lines of 1) “I thought it was a stolen car” and 2) “You guys do this all the time, and we never catch you.” I never heard many attempts or mention of effort to try and learn if it was stolen beforehand, and seriously … marked cars go flying through your patrol zone all the time, and this is the best way you can think of to address that problem? If it’s an issue, and it might be – let your overpaid, under-worked supervisors do some following up. Initiating a pursuit, throwing safety out the window, humiliating both agencies and acting like a psycho is not the way to do it … in my opinion. Not sure if that was the intended plan of action, but that’s how it looks now!

I am gonna say … it’s a huge leap to take, initiating a stop on a marked car. Given the circumstance, and then the fact it just hauled ass … I can see the emergency traffic. But then ending is what amazes me. Instead of doing it right, its half assed. I can’t believe that any state agency at least trains that kind of response at the end of a pursuit. No offense guys, but in MY area, that’s something I have come to expect and see from SOME of the local cars, no ours. WE don’t train to do what, and as a state cop looking at another one, I can’t imagine they do either! WTF?! And I KNOW that some agencies in my state and around the country (DPD, LAPD, SDPD) have some SERIOUS felony stop training and experience, so you know what I am talking about. SAR hit it perfectly – there is no such thing as a “half risk felony whatever stop.” It’s all or nothing, just like we are trained. Sometimes it is a cop off the deep end. One of our guys went nuts a few years back, lead the locals on a chase and suicide'd out in a parking lot. It can happen to ANY agency unfortunately. Just a side effect of having human beings serving as police. Not perfect, no matter how hard we try to screen for them.

The verdict is in, and we’ll chalk this one up to: goofballs. One’s going to get hammered, and the other one needs some remedial, and to do some ride time with the city or county to learn about the other side of the fence. I think that she would find its a little different, but that everyone bleeds the same blue. It gets pretty damn lonely all by yourself in the saddle of that high horse.

Now some parting thoughts brought up by other posts …

I forget who it was, but the guy that said he’d knock the Trooper on her ass. Sure dude, whatever. See how that ends up. In that situation you are the “bad guy” – the car in front, the one being chased, and she is the “good guy” and likely has more “good guys” coming. If I rolled up as number 2, and saw a guy assaulting the officer I KNEW was the primary, I’d do everything I could to put a sudden stop to it, and I can imagine just about every other cop I know would too. Given the context of the situation though, the guy in front would know he was wrong, and should just keep his yap shut.

Now if I were randomly just patrolling, and all of a sudden another car just tried to light me up and stop me, you can bet I am gonna be on my radio, and heading towards a welcoming committee so we can all figure out what’s going on. If I am legitimately patrolling, not breaking any laws, etc … there is no way in hell I am stopping for anybody’s lights or marked car without some kind of radio or phone explanation as to why. Stopping and physically having to fight another “officer” is bad tactics too in my opinion. I think this guy in the video stopped because he knew he was in the wrong, and that the other car was determined to stop him. By continuing, he was just digging a deeper hole. Unfortunately for him the hole he dug up to that point is probably deep enough to be his grave already.

Looks like everyone in that video went a little off the deep end. For the guys that work there, I hope it doesn’t end up as some stupid “turf war” that everyone loses. It amazes me to see that it still happens in this day and age.

My opinion only, cost you what it took to log in and read it.

Bullet points would have been nice...:tongueout:

AngryBassets
11-01-2011, 19:57
There's some interesting responses here.

I can count on two fingers I've gone 120 mph in my 17 year career:

-One was a was catching up to (and catching) a burglar on a 6 lane highway in the middle of the night, driving an 09 Hemi Charger

-Going to a raging gunfight in which three officers were shot, two fatally, in 1995. I think I was in a Caprice, and I was on I-295 (a 6 lane interstate).

F this guy; he's a turd and should be canned.

larry_minn
11-01-2011, 21:17
Well Mr. Dial Up, if you haven't watched the video, I can't imagine how your opinion of the incident or the thread means a hill of beans. And I'm sorry could you tell me how easy it is to steal a patrol car? You seem to have an abundance of experience, or you're simply talking out of your ass.

So you are upset I INFORMED FOLKS what I based my OPINION on????

Also you did NOT read my post. Let me repost it in bold. [B](ok maybe its changed with modern anti theft stuff) to steal a squad car. (esp if left running with just doors locked)
[B] I based my statement on how squad cars USED to be. I guess you have trouble when folks put LIMITES/qualifiers on what they post.

You sound like a little kid. Maybe my comment on how a person should have Honor hit too close to home?

Yes I did use the wrong Burt Renolds movie. :) Guess it was one with Dean Martin, Dom D and IIRC Sammy Davis Junior. (didn't it have JAWS guy??) and some karate guy?

Yes I have taken a few squad cars. (ok three but two of them were multiple times) Local PD hired a couple part timers who had a problem locking squad. Cheif gave me permission to "borrow" it whenever they did. Drive it a few blocks, call them on radio. Then I was offered job with the PD. Sadly for me before I started I got into a head on and am medically unable to do the job. So yes I am a wanna be. (or would that be a "almost was"?)

In yrs past it was not unknown for things to be done that wouldn't be considered nowdays (esp in rural areas) Once when the Officer on duties wife went into early labor I did patrol and escort for receipts from stop and rob. (at that time I had a key for squad so I can't count that)

I always wonder about folks that use their ass for things other then its intended use. nasty.

SgtScott31
11-02-2011, 12:52
I can't believe there are "officers" on here who have no issue with someone pulling over a marked cruiser and pulling a uniformed officer out and arresting him. Yeah, he was going fast, for no reason. If we arrested everyone in this discussion for speeding in their patrol car there would be no one left to discuss this topic. Take a hard look in the mirror before you play goody good. No one is defending the reason why the cop was speeding, suspend him and take away his take home. Prosecute and terminate? WOW.

If it was repetitive behavior, which appeared to be listening to the video, then he's a liability nightmare. I wouldn't have a problem terminating him, or at minium days off without pay and foot patrol in south beach somewhere.

Where do you draw the line? What if FHP didn't stop him and he lost control and plowed into a van full of nuns? This shouldn't be a situation where it was too little, too late. If he had a history of driving like an idiot to off-duty, side gigs, then he's a threat to everyone on the road, including himself. Had this been anyone else then they would have been charged with multiple crimes. It is a felony to elude in a vehicle in my state. At minimum, joe plumber would have been hit with reckless driving, reckless endangerment, and felony evading in my neck of the woods. I don't think a reckless driving citation was a bad move here. Does FHP need some retraining? probably. Was she wrong in issuing the cite? I don't think so.

JohnnyReb
11-03-2011, 00:59
If it was repetitive behavior, which appeared to be listening to the video, then he's a liability nightmare. I wouldn't have a problem terminating him, or at minium days off without pay and foot patrol in south beach somewhere.
That assumes a lot

Where do you draw the line? What if FHP didn't stop him and he lost control and plowed into a van full of nuns? This shouldn't be a situation where it was too little, too late. If he had a history of driving like an idiot to off-duty, side gigs, then he's a threat to everyone on the road, including himself.
Lopez has been with the Miami Police Department for several years and has had a good driving record, both before and after becoming a police officer.

Had this been anyone else then they would have been charged with multiple crimes. It is a felony to elude in a vehicle in my state. At minimum, joe plumber would have been hit with reckless driving, reckless endangerment, and felony evading in my neck of the woods.Evading? Was his intent to evade, or get out of the way? I don't think a reckless driving citation was a bad move here. Does FHP need some retraining? probably.retraining? How about termination for disobeying a direct order from a superior? Was she wrong in issuing the cite? I don't think so.
http://www.officer.com/news/10445444/miami-fop-defends-speeding-officer

larry_minn
11-03-2011, 12:20
Lets wildly speculate. Did you catch that? I did NOT say I KNEW but taking the "flavor" of some posts I am speculating. OK?

It was posted.

"Lopez has been with the Miami Police Department for several years and has had a good driving record, both before and after becoming a police officer. "
Now lets be honest. Something like this (fairly serious) its NOT his first rodeo. Most folks don't start with "bank Robbery" Like most everything they "work up to it"
Mild example. Gal clerk caught "fake returning" a depth finder ($400 area) Of course she SWEARS this is the first time she has EVER done anything like that... I got her to admit she first did some $20 tools (she would enter info as if a cash sale had returned items, pocket the cash, invetory showed items gone, shoplifting suspected>>) She had "worked her way up" to big stuff because she was not caught/punished earlier.
Fastest I have been on public road was in a squad car. For NO REASON. The Officer decided to "burn the carbon out" was what he said. No lights/siren/at night. Wonder how that would have read if he had hit a deer? (maybe some motorist who broke down?)
We almost lost a heck of a Deputy yrs back. He was responding to a accident/injuries. Location given was wrong. He came over hill...... A bystander died. This Deputy dang near quit. (IIRC it showed he was under 80mph when he crested hill...)

More importantly. It has been stated (strongly) that some officers here would NOT even consider taking any action. (if it was a marked squad looking thing) Or at most they would contact officer, his agency and suggest they slow down.
So that there is not a paper trail of tickets on this (hopefully) former officer does not "prove" anything. There is "courtesy and there is not doing your job. I think the term is Malfiesence (sp)?

JohnnyReb
11-03-2011, 13:13
Lets wildly speculate. Did you catch that? I did NOT say I KNEW but taking the "flavor" of some posts I am speculating. OK?

It was posted.

"Lopez has been with the Miami Police Department for several years and has had a good driving record, both before and after becoming a police officer. "
Now lets be honest. Something like this (fairly serious) its NOT his first rodeo. Most folks don't start with "bank Robbery" Like most everything they "work up to it"
Mild example. Gal clerk caught "fake returning" a depth finder ($400 area) Of course she SWEARS this is the first time she has EVER done anything like that... I got her to admit she first did some $20 tools (she would enter info as if a cash sale had returned items, pocket the cash, invetory showed items gone, shoplifting suspected>>) She had "worked her way up" to big stuff because she was not caught/punished earlier.
Fastest I have been on public road was in a squad car. For NO REASON. The Officer decided to "burn the carbon out" was what he said. No lights/siren/at night. Wonder how that would have read if he had hit a deer? (maybe some motorist who broke down?)
We almost lost a heck of a Deputy yrs back. He was responding to a accident/injuries. Location given was wrong. He came over hill...... A bystander died. This Deputy dang near quit. (IIRC it showed he was under 80mph when he crested hill...)

More importantly. It has been stated (strongly) that some officers here would NOT even consider taking any action. (if it was a marked squad looking thing) Or at most they would contact officer, his agency and suggest they slow down.
So that there is not a paper trail of tickets on this (hopefully) former officer does not "prove" anything. There is "courtesy and there is not doing your job. I think the term is Malfiesence (sp)?

So exactly what are you getting at here? His driving record as released has been described as "good". Who is to say he has done this before at all? Where is the proof? The conspiracy of the colour of law? Something tells me, with the actions demonstrated by this trooper, she would have no problem initating an internal complaint. If she saw it so much, why didn't she? Your insinuations, speculations and assumptions are irrelevent and gratitutious. Lets stick with facts here, and not chastize him on speculation.


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WarCry
11-03-2011, 17:23
So exactly what are you getting at here? His driving record as released has been described as "good". Who is to say he has done this before at all? Where is the proof? The conspiracy of the colour of law?

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. A clean record indicates only ONE thing as a stated fact: He's never been CAUGHT doing anything. And, according to many comments here, he could have been driving like this for YEARS and as long as it was in a marked car, no one would have said a thing to him, so his record would REMAIN clean.

Anything OTHER than the fact that he was never caught doing something - whether it's that he's just a lucky SOB that got away with it, or that he was an angel that slipped up once - is just pure speculation. NEITHER side is borne out by the driving record.

JohnnyReb
11-03-2011, 17:28
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. A clean record indicates only ONE thing as a stated fact: He's never been CAUGHT doing anything. And, according to many comments here, he could have been driving like this for YEARS and as long as it was in a marked car, no one would have said a thing to him, so his record would REMAIN clean.

Anything OTHER than the fact that he was never caught doing something - whether it's that he's just a lucky SOB that got away with it, or that he was an angel that slipped up once - is just pure speculation. NEITHER side is borne out by the driving record.

My point is, you can not hold assumptions and speculations against him.

WarCry
11-03-2011, 18:21
My point is, you can not hold assumptions and speculations against him.

But....BUT.....THIS IN THE INTERNET!!!

What, you expect folks to rely on FACTS?? INTERNET NAZI!!!




:cool:

SgtScott31
11-03-2011, 23:10
Lopez has been with the Miami Police Department for several years and has had a good driving record, both before and after becoming a police officer


That really doesn't say much. How often is there a valid complaint that holds any weight against a LEO's driving? Even if someone calls in to complain most agencies ask them to come in and file a written complaint and they never follow through. From what I understand, the FHP Trooper says it wasn't the first time a marked car has blown through that area. Having a record with his agency of a "good driving history" doesn't mean much. It certainly doesn't excuse the way he was driving when this occurred.


Evading? Was his intent to evade, or get out of the way?


You tell me. Usually when someone gets out of the way of an approaching emergency vehicle they pull to the right adjacent lane or shoulder and slow down or stop. They don't weave in and out of traffic at 100+ mph.


retraining? How about termination for disobeying a direct order from a superior?


You tell me how many officers get automatically terminated for not following an order from a shift supervisor. Days off without pay? probably. Termination? not unless they already have a crap pile of a record.

What bothers me the most is the hammering the FHP Trooper is getting when you compare the two. A majority of folks here and on o.com are giving the trooper far more grief than the Miami PD officer. If we are placing this on a scale of who did more wrong, in my eyes it sure wasn't the trooper. At most she violated agency policy if she was told to discontinue. There are some issues with the way the stop was handled in my opinion, but that really isn't relevant to the millions of people watching the video. Who put the public at greater risk? Since the question in my last post wasn't addressed, what if MPD crashed and there's evidence that shows he blew by FHP on a weekly basis?

The biggest thing to remember here is who is putting the biggest stain on the LE community. When there's a growing distrust of government and LE spreading across the U.S., how does this make it look when officers in the media and on the internet are defending the MPD officer's actions and grilling the FHP officer. This is really going to help the situation. From a supervisor standpoint the MPD officer is a huge liability issue if he thinks it's ok to drive 90+ mph in his vehicle off-duty because of being late to a side gig.

JohnnyReb
11-03-2011, 23:49
That really doesn't say much. How often is there a valid complaint that holds any weight against a LEO's driving? Even if someone calls in to complain most agencies ask them to come in and file a written complaint and they never follow through. From what I understand, the FHP Trooper says it wasn't the first time a marked car has blown through that area. Having a record with his agency of a "good driving history" doesn't mean much. It certainly doesn't excuse the way he was driving when this occurred.



You tell me. Usually when someone gets out of the way of an approaching emergency vehicle they pull to the right adjacent lane or shoulder and slow down or stop. They don't weave in and out of traffic at 100+ mph.



You tell me how many officers get automatically terminated for not following an order from a shift supervisor. Days off without pay? probably. Termination? not unless they already have a crap pile of a record.

What bothers me the most is the hammering the FHP Trooper is getting when you compare the two. A majority of folks here and on o.com are giving the trooper far more grief than the Miami PD officer. If we are placing this on a scale of who did more wrong, in my eyes it sure wasn't the trooper. At most she violated agency policy if she was told to discontinue. There are some issues with the way the stop was handled in my opinion, but that really isn't relevant to the millions of people watching the video. Who put the public at greater risk? Since the question in my last post wasn't addressed, what if MPD crashed and there's evidence that shows he blew by FHP on a weekly basis?

The biggest thing to remember here is who is putting the biggest stain on the LE community. When there's a growing distrust of government and LE spreading across the U.S., how does this make it look when officers in the media and on the internet are defending the MPD officer's actions and grilling the FHP officer. This is really going to help the situation. From a supervisor standpoint the MPD officer is a huge liability issue if he thinks it's ok to drive 90+ mph in his vehicle off-duty because of being late to a side gig.

Actually it says a lot. Miami pd has approximately 1100 sworn officers. How many could "blow through the area"? Sgt, if its not on paper it didn't happen. In all fairness, we should not hold this officer accountable to the Florida trooper's generalization.

The above also applied to your "what if question". If the trooper was willing to yank out a officer in a marked police vehicle gun drawn, and handcuff the officer, she shouldn't of had any problem filing a formal complaint.



Im not sure how your agency is, but in mine, if you refuse an order, it had better be an unlawful order. Refusing to follow orders will get you terminated just as fast as lying.

I'm not defending the Miami officer, he shouldn't of been speeding like he did. But in response to your question, the person who put the biggest strain on the LE community is again, the trooper. Had she of done the correct thing and filed a formal complaint, instead of pulling over a marked cruiser and making a specticle of it, both agencies could save face. This whole situation would of been avoided.




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DaBigBR
11-04-2011, 00:24
What bothers me the most is the hammering the FHP Trooper is getting when you compare the two. A majority of folks here and on o.com are giving the trooper far more grief than the Miami PD officer. If we are placing this on a scale of who did more wrong, in my eyes it sure wasn't the trooper.

I've got to agree here. Whether you agree with the troop or not, what the PD officer did was ultimately illegal and stupid.. What the troop did, or portions thereof, may have been stupid.

SgtScott31
11-04-2011, 00:50
I'm not defending the Miami officer, he shouldn't of been speeding like he did. But in response to your question, the person who put the biggest strain on the LE community is again, the trooper. Had she of done the correct thing and filed a formal complaint, instead of pulling over a marked cruiser and making a specticle of it, both agencies could save face. This whole situation would of been avoided.



I have a hard time agreeing with this. Could it have been done through other channels? possibly. A call to his supervisor is one way to handle it. Another way is to stop him and see where the fire is. She chose the latter. Instead of pulling over, he speeds up. In my opinion it was the MPD officer that caused the snowball to get bigger, not her. Had he stopped sooner, maybe it would have ended smoother for both. There are many officers that are screaming she should have handled it through other means, specifically through contacting the PD. I'm curious with 1100+ officers how one out of dozens of MPD supervisors (on a different shift) would find out who it was. Considering the speeds he was going, I doubt she knew anything else aside from the fact it was a marked MPD car.

I see some issues with the way the stop was handled, but I don't see an issue with the citation. We are expected to abide by the laws we enforce. If I saw one of my guys running that speed and not on a "hot call," it would be their arse. Especially if I knew they were off-duty at the time.

JohnnyReb
11-04-2011, 01:09
I have a hard time agreeing with this. Could it have been done through other channels? possibly. A call to his supervisor is one way to handle it. Another way is to stop him and see where the fire is. She chose the latter. Instead of pulling over, he speeds up. In my opinion it was the MPD officer that caused the snowball to get bigger, not her. Had he stopped sooner, maybe it would have ended smoother for both. There are many officers that are screaming she should have handled it through other means, specifically through contacting the PD. I'm curious with 1100+ officers how one out of dozens of MPD supervisors (on a different shift) would find out who it was. Considering the speeds he was going, I doubt she knew anything else aside from the fact it was a marked MPD car.

I see some issues with the way the stop was handled, but I don't see an issue with the citation. We are expected to abide by the laws we enforce. If I saw one of my guys running that speed and not on a "hot call," it would be their arse. Especially if I knew they were off-duty at the time.

If there was a fire, so to speak, how would stopping him on the way to it be sound decision making? Yes he clearly needs to be disciplined.

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SgtScott31
11-04-2011, 04:02
If there was a fire, so to speak, how would stopping him on the way to it be sound decision making? Yes he clearly needs to be disciplined.

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A hot call would likely involve lights and siren, not a non-emergency response.

Bruce M
11-04-2011, 06:41
Not condoning some actions by either officer, but I think it might be very interesting to see what they have been like up until this; work habits, discipline, effectiveness, etc. I wonder what the opinions of them were by the others they worked with and for.

purrrfect 10
11-04-2011, 06:49
Twinkies were half price at Wal Mart:rofl::rofl:

wrenrj1
11-04-2011, 18:30
I'd rather see this story in the news than a story about a City of Miami Police cruiser going upwards of 120 mph hitting a family of five in a minivan. Good stop.

Bruce M
11-05-2011, 21:27
I'd rather see this story in the news than a story about a Miami/Dade Police cruiser going upwards of 120 mph hitting a family of five in a minivan. Good stop.


In this story it was City of Miami Police Department, not Dade.

4949shooter
11-06-2011, 04:58
What bothers me the most is the hammering the FHP Trooper is getting when you compare the two. A majority of folks here and on o.com are giving the trooper far more grief than the Miami PD officer. If we are placing this on a scale of who did more wrong, in my eyes it sure wasn't the trooper. At most she violated agency policy if she was told to discontinue. There are some issues with the way the stop was handled in my opinion, but that really isn't relevant to the millions of people watching the video. Who put the public at greater risk? Since the question in my last post wasn't addressed, what if MPD crashed and there's evidence that shows he blew by FHP on a weekly basis?

The biggest thing to remember here is who is putting the biggest stain on the LE community. When there's a growing distrust of government and LE spreading across the U.S., how does this make it look when officers in the media and on the internet are defending the MPD officer's actions and grilling the FHP officer. This is really going to help the situation. From a supervisor standpoint the MPD officer is a huge liability issue if he thinks it's ok to drive 90+ mph in his vehicle off-duty because of being late to a side gig. [/COLOR]

We can all agree the Miami officer was wrong, so we have gotten that part out of the way.

What remains is the Florida trooper's handling of the stop. We talk about a black eye to law enforcement, which I fully agree this incident was, especially when you consider the public's perception which is aggravated through the media. Let's look at why this incident has gotten so much media attention....it's because a police officer arrested another police officer. I mean, this incident even made it to one of the hunting forums I frequent. It's big news when a cop arrests another cop. Where I come from, the violation of speeding earns the violator a speeding ticket, plain and simple. Had the trooper just given the Miami cop a ticket, like everyone else who speeds out there, this incident would not have attracted all the media attention. Why the trooper had to humiliate the officer and approach with gun drawn, and then place him in handcuffs, seize his weapon, and frisk/search him is beyond me. Okay, I will give her the approach with her weapon drawn because she wasn't 100% positive she had a cop in the car, though her following statements lead me to believe she was 99% certain that's what she had. And, on the off hand possibility the car was stolen, she should have used high risk stop techniques, which she didn't. But she had no reason to believe this car was stolen (No BOLO or NCIC hit) other than some media article from days prior she sites which was from a completely unrelated incident. But of course, she tells us all on camera "We see this police car speeding all the time and we can never catch it." So we are pretty certain she knew what she had, which is another cop speeding on the highway she patrols every day.

As far as a possible charge for eluding officer goes, well by NJ statute the violator must have knowledge of the officer's intent to stop him, and must be refusing to obey those orders. Florida is probably not much different. By the accounts here, taking into consideration the officer's driving when the trooper was behind him as well as the dialogue between the trooper and the Miami cop, I truly belive the Miami guy was confused, and was just trying to get out of the trooper's way. I don't think he was trying to get away from the trooper, nor do I think he was disregarding her authority to stop him. When he asks her what would she have done if the situation was reversed she tells him, "I would have gotten out of the way." He tells her, "I did." When you go back and look at the tape, that's exactly what he was trying to do...get out of her way. And when you consider the fact that he is in a marked patrol car, it is reasonable to understand how the Miami cop could become confused and not think that this trooper was actually chasing him down and trying to stop him. I mean, if I were in a marked car, I wouldn't think she was actually coming after me either.

The bottom line is, this Miami officer got treated worse than the rest of the motoring public because he was a cop from another agency. He was humiliated when he should have been issued a traffic citation and allowed to continue on without the humiliation of arrest and search. This is why the Florida trooper is getting hammered by her peers.

Just my opinion of course.

TLHelmer
11-06-2011, 06:13
Ugly situation all the way around!

SpoiledBySig
11-06-2011, 08:49
I have spoken to many FHP Troopers and they are all totally angry about what the fellow trooper did. They are all telling me the trooper is a 'Gypsy Trooper" and has been transferred many times because of her attitude.

Different people (cops) have different takes on this. I believe, no doubt about it- the Miami cop deserved a citation and he will be in big trouble (IA) for his driving habits.

But drawing down and handcuffing him was complete utter crap and all the FHP Troopers I have spoken with totally agree.

We all have different takes on this and this one is mine.

wrenrj1
11-06-2011, 18:26
In this story it was City of Miami Police Department, not Dade.

My bad, correction made.

rookie1
11-06-2011, 19:45
Anyone know yet what happend? Im real interested after a month. Does Florida have a online courts system to see if there is a disposition for his charge.

clancy
11-06-2011, 20:12
The bottom line is, this Miami officer got treated worse than the rest of the motoring public because he was a cop from another agency. He was humiliated when he should have been issued a traffic citation and allowed to continue on without the humiliation of arrest and search. This is why the Florida trooper is getting hammered by her peers.

Just my opinion of course.

Do you really expect me to believe that if I was doing 120mph and not stopping for a police car that had it's lights and siren on all I would get is a ticket? I find the arrogance of an off duty cop who thinks it perfectly acceptable to go that speed just because he was late for his off duty job frightening. And no, I am not a cop, but I was brought up to obey the law, and expect everyone else to do the same, cops included.

Too bad some here don't think the same way. It is attitudes like this that help cement the "us versus them" point of view that I see far too many people have regarding cops.

Bruce M
11-06-2011, 20:31
My bad, correction made.


Thanks

4949shooter
11-06-2011, 20:38
Do you really expect me to believe that if I was doing 120mph and not stopping for a police car that had it's lights and siren on all I would get is a ticket? I find the arrogance of an off duty cop who thinks it perfectly acceptable to go that speed just because he was late for his off duty job frightening. And no, I am not a cop, but I was brought up to obey the law, and expect everyone else to do the same, cops included.

Too bad some here don't think the same way. It is attitudes like this that help cement the "us versus them" point of view that I see far too many people have regarding cops.

A few years ago my partner and I were stopping a drunk driver. The guy was doing about 100 MPH on an interstate. It took a few miles for him to stop. When we arrested him for drunk driving, my partner wanted me to book him for eluding an officer because he felt the driver was trying to get away from us. I told him "NO," because I didn't feel the driver knew for sure that we were trying to stop him, thus it didn't fit the statute. The driver was booked for drunk driving and not eluding.

You obviously have no practical experience in these matters. Read up on some statutes. Do a few ride alongs. Then, when you have some experience you can come and talk to me.

clancy
11-07-2011, 05:37
You obviously have no practical experience in these matters. Read up on some statutes. Do a few ride alongs. Then, when you have some experience you can come and talk to me.

I expected an answer similar to what you gave me, The old "you aren't a cop so you can't have an opinion" is a pretty poor defense. I know first hand what can happen when you get caught doing 110 in a 55, because when I was 19 ( Iam 55 now) I got caught doing just that. I was arrested, spent the nighf in jail, lost my license and had to pay some pretty hefty fines. No, I wasn't drunk I, wasn't carrying drugs, I was just speeding. I guess if I were a cop I would have gotten away with that, and I firmly believe that is what lends itself to widening the divide between cops and non-cops.

Dukeboy01
11-07-2011, 07:43
I expected an answer similar to what you gave me, The old "you aren't a cop so you can't have an opinion" is a pretty poor defense. I know first hand what can happen when you get caught doing 110 in a 55, because when I was 19 ( Iam 55 now) I got caught doing just that. I was arrested, spent the nighf in jail, lost my license and had to pay some pretty hefty fines. No, I wasn't drunk I, wasn't carrying drugs, I was just speeding. I guess if I were a cop I would have gotten away with that, and I firmly believe that is what lends itself to widening the divide between cops and non-cops.

The most I ever clocked somebody over the speed limit was a guy in a '66 Shelby Cobra doing 68 mph in a 25 mph zone or approximately 250% of the legal limit as opposed to the mere 200% of the speed limit that you claim that you were doing. He was polite, honest, and apologetic and got written for 50 instead of 68 (which still equates to a pretty hefty fine, but it doesn't even require a mandatory court appearance in KY) and was extremely glad to have it.

I'm going to go out on a limb, based upon your attitude today, and figure that at age 19 you probably earned your ride...

Dragoon44
11-07-2011, 08:31
Originally Posted by 4949shooter
The bottom line is, this Miami officer got treated worse than the rest of the motoring public because he was a cop from another agency. He was humiliated when he should have been issued a traffic citation and allowed to continue on without the humiliation of arrest and search.

I have to disagree with this, 120mph, ten miles to catch up to him and he does not pull over even when the trooper is right on him and moves with him as he changes lanes. On top of that the video shows that twice he accelerated away from her.

If that had been joe blow he would have gone to jail.

4949shooter
11-07-2011, 08:42
I have to disagree with this, 120mph, ten miles to catch up to him and he does not pull over even when the trooper is right on him and moves with him as he changes lanes. On top of that the video shows that twice he accelerated away from her.

If that had been joe blow he would have gone to jail.

Well then I gues it's about the individual officer's perception of the incident, or the alleged violation. See my post above (#132). My partner felt the subject's actions were deserving of an eluding arrest. I didn't. It was my stop so the driver didn't get charged with eluding.

Concerning the Florida incident, the dialogue at the end of the recording (the full recording) between the trooper and the Miami cop is what sealed the deal for me. His actions in my opinion mirrored what he told the trooper. She needed to be 100% certain of his intent to flee before she arrested and charged him with eluding. I don't think she was certain of this due to her actions of no high risk stop techniques being used, and statement of seeing a police car "speeding out here all the time and we can never catch it." Thus the arrest and search/frisk of the officer was unjustified, in my opinion.

4949shooter
11-07-2011, 08:46
I expected an answer similar to what you gave me, The old "you aren't a cop so you can't have an opinion" is a pretty poor defense. I know first hand what can happen when you get caught doing 110 in a 55, because when I was 19 ( Iam 55 now) I got caught doing just that. I was arrested, spent the nighf in jail, lost my license and had to pay some pretty hefty fines. No, I wasn't drunk I, wasn't carrying drugs, I was just speeding. I guess if I were a cop I would have gotten away with that, and I firmly believe that is what lends itself to widening the divide between cops and non-cops.

If you were a heart surgeon I wouldn't tell you how to perform open heart surgery on me.

I don't know all the details of the stop when you were 19, nor do I know the attitudes / mindset of the officer who stopped you. If you had practical police experience, you would know that every situation is different. Please, feel free to fill us in on all the details of your actions leading up to your arrest. We may be comparing apples to oranges here.

Dragoon44
11-07-2011, 09:00
Concerning the Florida incident, the dialogue at the end of the recording (the full recording) between the trooper and the Miami cop is what sealed the deal for me. His actions in my opinion mirrored what he told the trooper. She needed to be 100% certain of his intent to flee before she arrested and charged him with eluding. I don't think she was certain of this due to her actions of no high risk stop techniques being used, and statement of seeing a police car "speeding out here all the time and we can never catch it." Thus the arrest and search/frisk of the officer was unjustified, in my opinion.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot said here. The problem is though that the fact he was a cop is coloring your view.

Apparently the fact he was a cop in a marked unit leads you to find plausible his explanation as to why he did not pull over. (He was trying to get out of her way, including I suppose his accelerating away from her twice being an attempt to get out of her way and not impede her)

Do you not see the problem here? your translating those same claims as being plausible for a non LEO. and the crux of the matter here is the view that if he were a non LEO he would have gone to jail.

The "plausible" explanations as to why he did not pull over won't fly for a non LEO, I am pretty certain even in NJ that the legal obligation of a driver who has a cop on their tail with lights and sirens going and is changing lanes with them is to PULL OVER, not accelerate away from the cruiser behind them. TWICE no less.

I think you are confusing what might be plausible explanations from an officer in a marked cruiser with reasonable and plausible explanations from a non LEO NOT in a marked unit.

It might be plausible for an officer in a marked unit to not at first realize that the cruiser coming up behind him with lights and sirens going was not initiating a stop on THEM.

it is however NOT plausible that a NON LEO who has just been cruising and 100+ would think the same thing. a non LEO's first thought would be "Damn I'm busted". not "gee wonder where they are going?"

4949shooter
11-07-2011, 10:53
It might be plausible for an officer in a marked unit to not at first realize that the cruiser coming up behind him with lights and sirens going was not initiating a stop on THEM.



This is what I am saying. I believe there was a disconnect between the Miami cop and the trooper due to the fact that he was in a marked unit. I think the Miami guy misread the trooper's intentions, and tried to get out of her way as opposed to stopping.

As stated above, I think your perception of this incident is different than mine, and thus you and I may have handled the incident differently, just as my old partner and I disagreed in the example I provided above.

Either way, you and I have been friends for a long enough time here that I am not going to argue with you about it.

Dragoon44
11-07-2011, 11:23
Either way, you and I have been friends for a long enough time here that I am not going to argue with you about it.

Right, besides we both know I am right.

:tongueout::rofl::wavey:

Bruce M
11-07-2011, 11:47
The "plausible" explanations as to why he did not pull over won't fly for a non LEO,
?"


I remain vaguely curious as to how many times someone driving a marked cruiser has been stopped.. I could see how "ohh Im being pulled over" might not be the first thought in a cruiser.

Dragoon44
11-07-2011, 12:09
I remain vaguely curious as to how many times someone driving a marked cruiser has been stopped.. I could see how "ohh Im being pulled over" might not be the first thought in a cruiser.

Exactly, but the same does not hold true of a NON LEO not in a marked cruiser.

4949shooter
11-07-2011, 16:33
Right, besides we both know I am right.

:tongueout::rofl::wavey:

You old geezers always think you're right. :tongueout::supergrin: