Looking for a Carbine? Best M4 Deal in Town... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TedG
10-30-2011, 21:32
A complete PSA carbine.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/8923.php

Palmetto State Armory 16" M4A1 Carbine

Finally, a complete Palmetto State Armory rifle ready to go for one low price. Our M4A1 Standard Carbine starts with one of our Chrome-lined CMV barrels in the versatile M4A1 profile, mated to our forged aluminum upper, and finished off with standard handguards and A2 Flash hider. The forged lower is built with our 6 position Mil-spec size buffer tube and stock, Standard PSA lower parts kit with A2-style grip and aluminum trigger guard. It comes with one 30 Round D&H PSA Magazine (where allowed by law) so all you have to provide is the ammo to start having fun.

Barrel: 16", 4150 Steel, M4A1 profile, 5.56 NATO chamber with a 1:7 right-hand twist , chrome-lined, High pressure Tested and magnetic Particle Inspected, carbine-length gas port, and M4 feedramps. Barrels are finished off with a taper pinned, f-marked, front sight post with sling swivel, standard handguards, an A2 flash hider, and are phosphate coated to Mil-specs.

Upper: Forged 7075-T6 A3 AR upper is made to MIL-SPECS and hard coat anodized black for durability. Featuring machined T marks, and a mil-spec finish. These uppers are made for us right here in the USA, and are marked with the Palmetto State Armory logo on the left side, up front, just below the rail.

Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, MPI and HPT. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo.

Lower: These forged lowers are quality made using material is 7075-T6 and are marked "MULTI" for caliber. Finish is Black Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-8625 Type 3 class 2. Mil-spec-sized buffer tube has 6 adjustment positions, is finished with a Palmetto State Armory M4-style stock and has a staked castle nut. Standard carbine buffer is Black anodized and has the PSA logo on the face. The standard PSA combat trigger has a smooth pull and clean break.

Each rifle is assembled with care to order. Please allow up to 10 working days for your order to ship.

$599.99

Shipping $15

Clint-M
10-30-2011, 21:43
Wow, Palmetto has got to be putting a huge dent on a lot of companies sales. They're putting out a lot of really nice, basic deals right now.

CM

bmoore
10-30-2011, 21:59
Way to go Palmetto, another great buy. How do the BCM guys possibly talk themselves into the long waits and more money? With PSA's 4150 line and the 20" FN uppers people cannot possibly argue better quality. Palmetto state armory rocks.

stopatrain
10-30-2011, 22:16
Great deal wish I needed another.

Clint-M
10-30-2011, 22:16
Way to go Palmetto, another great buy. How do the BCM guys possibly talk themselves into the long waits and more money? With PSA's 4150 line and the 20" FN uppers people cannot possibly argue better quality. Palmetto state armory rocks.

I think what a lot of people prefer from BCM is that they can get their preferred handguards, complete rifle, etc. all put together at a good price while Pamletto I think only has Magpul, Midwest, DD, and Troy.

Of course, this is coming from someone who wouldn't wait for a BCM.

CM

mixflip
10-30-2011, 23:17
With those features and at that price point.... no one can compete with a deal like that. Not that I know of anyway? I'd buy it.

My only complaint would be that its a carbine and not a mid-length.

TedG
10-31-2011, 06:24
With those features and at that price point.... no one can compete with a deal like that. Not that I know of anyway? I'd buy it.

My only complaint would be that its a carbine and not a mid-length.

I was wondering the same thing.

Since PSA states that each carbine is made-to-order, and their different uppers are similarly priced, I'll bet you could substitute a middy for a nominal price.

A phone call could answer that question.

ColdBlooded
10-31-2011, 06:34
I was wondering the same thing.

Since PSA states that each carbine is made-to-order, and their different uppers are similarly priced, I'll bet you could substitute a middy for a nominal price.

A phone call could answer that question.


This. And if they start offering pencil barrels, I am screwed.

Eurodriver
10-31-2011, 06:36
Way to go Palmetto, another great buy. How do the BCM guys possibly talk themselves into the long waits and more money? With PSA's 4150 line and the 20" FN uppers people cannot possibly argue better quality. Palmetto state armory rocks.

Look, I can appreciate that they are a growing company putting out products that meet the military specifications and that every company has mistakes...but they are by no means a proven brand yet. If Suzuki was putting out an engine that met the exact same specs as a Corvette engine, would you then claim the Suzuki is a better buy?

They might have all the pieces to make a great weapon, but they haven't exactly got assembling them and quality control down pat yet. Until they figure some of the following issues out, I will wait for my Corvette engine.


http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7098/1001748g.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/551333_Wrong_gas_tube_.html&page=1

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/551367_ordered_complete_upper__gas_tube_does_not_enter_upper.html



http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0003.jpg

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89578

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/drewseph98/IMAG0167.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=547728&page=1

jwhite75
10-31-2011, 06:53
That is an absoultely phenomenal deal.

bmoore
10-31-2011, 09:33
Look, I can appreciate that they are a growing company putting out products that meet the military specifications and that every company has mistakes...but they are by no means a proven brand yet. If Suzuki was putting out an engine that met the exact same specs as a Corvette engine, would you then claim the Suzuki is a better buy?

They might have all the pieces to make a great weapon, but they haven't exactly got assembling them and quality control down pat yet. Until they figure some of the following issues out, I will wait for my Corvette engine.


http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7098/1001748g.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/551333_Wrong_gas_tube_.html&page=1

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/551367_ordered_complete_upper__gas_tube_does_not_enter_upper.html



http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0003.jpg

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89578

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/drewseph98/IMAG0167.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=547728&page=1

No doubt about it thats a major slip up.

mixflip
10-31-2011, 09:35
Carbine length gas tube on a middy?

Chowser
10-31-2011, 12:02
i almost ordered the patrol rifle with optic deal for $999, but ended up just getting a kit because i wanted midlength. i asked two weeks ago if they were going to offer it in midlength version and got no answer, i called to order and they said they didnt plan on it yet, so i just ordered my kit. will decide on what optic i want later.

i am hoping mine gets here at the end of the week.

Mayhem like Me
10-31-2011, 14:44
I have seen Colts with the feed ramp problem someone put the wrong extension on that barrel.

Eurodriver
10-31-2011, 14:55
I have seen Colts with the feed ramp problem someone put the wrong extension on that barrel.

Colt has produced hundreds of thousands of AR15s.

PSA....Maybe 5000???

Kcolg
10-31-2011, 16:10
I've ordered 6 so far and they have functioned great. All have been kits that I put together though.

The one bad experience with them was the wrong upper being sent once and it took a while to get a hold of someone to get the issue corrected. Reaching a real person has been hit and miss for me on stuff, sometimes I can reach someone on my first or second try and other times it can take a couple of days to reach someone.

Singlestack Wonder
11-03-2011, 09:50
Look, I can appreciate that they are a growing company putting out products that meet the military specifications and that every company has mistakes...but they are by no means a proven brand yet. If Suzuki was putting out an engine that met the exact same specs as a Corvette engine, would you then claim the Suzuki is a better buy?

They might have all the pieces to make a great weapon, but they haven't exactly got assembling them and quality control down pat yet. Until they figure some of the following issues out, I will wait for my Corvette engine.


http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7098/1001748g.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/551333_Wrong_gas_tube_.html&page=1

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/551367_ordered_complete_upper__gas_tube_does_not_enter_upper.html



http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0003.jpg

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89578

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/drewseph98/IMAG0167.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=547728&page=1

Serious quality problems indeed. I cannot even begin to rationalize why people when they see a company start to offer their own brand of rifles (or uppers) with no proven track record, start a "cult" following justifying the new company's products over top tier providers such as Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, etc. There is a reason the PSA's are lesser in cost and the photo's above prove why. Anyone who thinks PSA's are in the same league as BCM or other top tier manufacturers certainly doesn't have a clue about AR-15s.

bchand01
11-03-2011, 10:26
I'll wait for the BCM I do not foresee PSA producing half the quality rifle of BCM. Well worth the wait and money in my eyes.

punkey71
11-03-2011, 15:57
Careful guys...the buyers of PSA (Spikes 2.0) are very defensive of the couple hundred bucks they saved.

Prepare to be labeled a BCM/DD/Colt/Noveske fan-boys, keyboard commando, cubicle commando, etc.

They will also accuse you of not being a serious shooter and one that only buys what others tell them to buy.

Whole lot of butt-hurt in the PSA circle...

But hey, fit and finish are perfect and it's been flawless for 200 rnds!

AlexHassin
11-03-2011, 16:07
At that price I would consider buying a black rifle toy, but I don’t think they ship hear. Also not shore the 10 round magazines are worth it. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

bmoore
11-03-2011, 16:47
Careful guys...the buyers of PSA (Spikes 2.0) are very defensive of the couple hundred bucks they saved.

Prepare to be labeled a BCM/DD/Colt/Noveske fan-boys, keyboard commando, cubicle commando, etc.

They will also accuse you of not being a serious shooter and one that only buys what others tell them to buy.

Whole lot of butt-hurt in the PSA circle...

But hey, fit and finish are perfect and it's been flawless for 200 rnds!

You seem to be quite confused, let me try to educate you (doubtful). Its not about the savings, I could care less about the 200 bucks. Some people dont desire to have milspec/M4 feedramps/4150 grade/ blah blah. So when I built my PSA dissy (which is very nice) I wasnt concerned about the fact that "for 250 dollars more you could have X, Y and Z". Its not about the savings, its about picking out a rifle that fits your needs without some yahoo telling you how you could have had M4 feed ramps with micro SEAL tridents engraved in them for 250 dollars more. I understand that in 2011 the 1,099 dollars I paid for my Smith M&P years ago would be a little overboard and I may buy someting different in todays market with 1100 bucks. But when I bought my Smith their wasnt really such a notable AR craze. Another example- I wanted a classic looking 20" A2 for plinking, so for 430 dollars I had a DPMS A2 upper to my door, and it does what I want it to do.

Im a fireman, not a cop or military. I dont need a "fighting rifle", My AR's (PSA, Smith M&P15 and DMPS) will last me a very long time. When the Colts arrive this month I will probably snag one, and you know what? It will have nothing to do the fact that their "top tier, mil spec, reliable fighting rifles" or whatever else a top tier 100,000 round AR is called. It will be because of the simple fact that I have always wanted one. Just like my 243, 22-250 and lots of the others. Its like somebody buying a Beretta 92FS and saying how dumb they are cause for 200 dollars more they could have a Sig P220.............but I didnt want a Sig.

superdoc
11-03-2011, 16:54
BCM is worth it...rack the charging handle on one...smooth

punkey71
11-03-2011, 17:11
It's about being the guinea pig for a new company and justifying saving $200 for a rifle of questionable quality/assembly due to their recent entrance into the AR world.

As for M4 feed ramps and mirco Seal tridents...whatever...the guns allegedly have the same specs. It's the assembly folks that are the problem. How do you know if it meets your needs if they have no track record of reliability or quality assembly?

As for handguns, I shoot Glocks because they work when others may not and are as proven as they get. They are cheaper than almost any semi auto handgun out there but that's not why I buy them.

That is all I'm saying regarding buying a proven quality AR. It's not about the money. Although I do get a discount on Glocks...being a fireman as well.

Every rifle is a fighting rifle just as every fire alarm is a fire...till proven otherwise.

Enjoy Brother,
Harold

p.s. I'm not confused at all.

p.s.s. Seriously trying to help, your S&W is over-gassed from the factory. Get an H2 buffer or H buffer and Blue Sprinco extra power spring. Much faster splits.

You seem to be quite confused, let me try to educate you (doubtful). Its not about the savings, I could care less about the 200 bucks. Some people dont desire to have milspec/M4 feedramps/4150 grade/ blah blah. So when I built my PSA dissy (which is very nice) I wasnt concerned about the fact that "for 250 dollars more you could have X, Y and Z". Its not about the savings, its about picking out a rifle that fits your needs without some yahoo telling you how you could have had M4 feed ramps with micro SEAL tridents engraved in them for 250 dollars more. I understand that in 2011 the 1,099 dollars I paid for my Smith M&P years ago would be a little overboard and I may buy someting different in todays market with 1100 bucks. But when I bought my Smith their wasnt really such a notable AR craze. Another example- I wanted a classic looking 20" A2 for plinking, so for 430 dollars I had a DPMS A2 upper to my door, and it does what I want it to do.

Im a fireman, not a cop or military. I dont need a "fighting rifle", My AR's (PSA, Smith M&P15 and DMPS) will last me a very long time. When the Colts arrive this month I will probably snag one, and you know what? It will have nothing to do the fact that their "top tier, mil spec, reliable fighting rifles" or whatever else a top tier 100,000 round AR is called. It will be because of the simple fact that I have always wanted one. Just like my 243, 22-250 and lots of the others. Its like somebody buying a Beretta 92FS and saying how dumb they are cause for 200 dollars more they could have a Sig P220.............but I didnt want a Sig.

punkey71
11-03-2011, 17:13
After a few hundred rounds, sure. From the factory they are as gritty as the rest.

BCM is worth it...rack the charging handle on one...smooth

76mmturbo
11-03-2011, 17:17
Serious quality problems indeed. I cannot even begin to rationalize why people when they see a company start to offer their own brand of rifles (or uppers) with no proven track record, start a "cult" following justifying the new company's products over top tier providers such as Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, etc. There is a reason the PSA's are lesser in cost and the photo's above prove why. Anyone who thinks PSA's are in the same league as BCM or other top tier manufacturers certainly doesn't have a clue about AR-15s.

M4 feed ramps are not good

bmoore
11-03-2011, 17:37
Seriously, I will look into the buffers.

powder86
11-06-2011, 07:24
i can't tell how good a deal this is or not. i'm just getting into ARs. some say it's a great deal, and others are uber critical. i don't know enough yet to pick a side. educate me?

Eurodriver
11-06-2011, 07:56
M4 feed ramps are not good

If you're going to spout off incorrect information, at least tell us why so we can tell you why you are wrong.

Eurodriver
11-06-2011, 07:56
i can't tell how good a deal this is or not. i'm just getting into ARs. some say it's a great deal, and others are uber critical. i don't know enough yet to pick a side. educate me?

Its fine for a first rifle, and a pretty good deal.

...but I wouldn't buy one.

powder86
11-06-2011, 08:07
Its fine for a first rifle, and a pretty good deal.

...but I wouldn't buy one.

So, again, I'm still left wondering... Why wouldn't you get one? It seems to have the technical specs I had on my list. What else is there? Please enlighten a noob to the ARs.

datnvan
11-06-2011, 08:50
seeing how i have had a cheap bushmaster and now daniel defense rifles, i can put this in perspective. my dad had the pleasure of buying my mom a new suv. he, being the cheapskate (no, not frugal), decided to look into hyundai veracruz as this was their flagship suv for about $40k fully loaded. we test drive it and while not perfect, there was some value to the features, i didnt much care for it. i convinced him to try a new lexus rx350 as its base price was about $40k. while the hyundai had the same features list, u could immediately tell the difference in quality and refinement. they ended up getting a fully loaded rx350 for $10k more than the comparably equipped hyundai, why? because of the refinement, the proven track record of reliability, the service that went along with a true luxury car, and the higher resale value. while u may scoff at spending $10k more for something that has the same features on paper, its how well they put all those features together that makes a difference to some.

with that being said, nothing wrong with the hyundai cars. and while they advertise theyre the competition for more upscale models, there is a difference when u look beyond specs and features.

hope that helps. yes the psa will prolly haveno issues in the long run, but i would be happy paying $200-300 more for a name brand build amd never really have to worry.

bmoore
11-06-2011, 08:57
So, again, I'm still left wondering... Why wouldn't you get one? It seems to have the technical specs I had on my list. What else is there? Please enlighten a noob to the ARs.

He doesnt know why he wouldnt buy one, its just cool to only want or buy certain brands. Palmetto makes great rifles/upppers, I ACTUALLY have one. They had a problem with shipping I think 3 uppers that had major problems with the gas tube. This has been corrected and the company has made changes in its building process. Im sure my little Pony and and all the other "top tier" guys had some problems along the way. There are other forums out there where you can read threads directly from one of the founders of the company. Buy with confidence PSA makes a fine rifle.

powder86
11-06-2011, 09:14
He doesnt know why he wouldnt buy one, its just cool to only want or buy certain brands. Palmetto makes great rifles/upppers, I ACTUALLY have one. They had a problem with shipping I think 3 uppers that had major problems with the gas tube. This has been corrected and the company has made changes in its building process. Im sure my little Pony and and all the other "top tier" guys had some problems along the way. There are other forums out there where you can read threads directly from one of the founders of the company. Buy with confidence PSA makes a fine rifle.

thank you for your response.

I've always wanted an AR. And I'm finally at a place where I can afford to get one. and so i'm looking for as much bang for my buck as i can. so i don't want to spend all that cash on a lemon. I have had bad experiences buying lower end or off brand firearm products.
to me it's a lot of money. so i just want to make sure i get something that i can use for years to come. but if i can save in the initial purchase as well, i want to.

mick238
11-06-2011, 09:35
I am also a AR noob and have been checking out some of these lower priced models.
How does this compare to the USA Ammo entry level rifle?

http://www.usaammo.com/AR-Lite-P869.aspx

bmoore
11-06-2011, 09:46
thank you for your response.

I've always wanted an AR. And I'm finally at a place where I can afford to get one. and so i'm looking for as much bang for my buck as i can. so i don't want to spend all that cash on a lemon. I have had bad experiences buying lower end or off brand firearm products.
to me it's a lot of money. so i just want to make sure i get something that i can use for years to come. but if i can save in the initial purchase as well, i want to.

I would think you would be very happy with a 4150 grade PSA upper/rifle. BCM, Colt, Spikes, DD, LMT, RRA, Stag, Armalite all make great weapons. Find one you like, lube it well and keep it clean. Be very careful of the "yeah PSA makes good stuff, but I wont buy one" crowd. Usually their avatars are not even close to thier real names and they have zero personal info in their profile. The closest some of them have gotten to an AR15 is their big brothers airsoft rifle, but they have lurked on the boards and know what the cool name brands are. When you get out from behind the keyboard and into reality the game changes.

Another group to pay close attention to is the spec sheet crowd. These guys like the way their gun looks on a spec sheet better than the way it shoots. They know that it should have M4 feedramps, hammer forged steeel, 1:7 twist rate, mil spec everything. But then when you ask them what the differnce in twist rates is they usually answer with "1:7 is better". There are a lot of people here with great advice to give, you just gotta be careful sometimes though.

Eurodriver
11-06-2011, 10:49
He doesnt know why he wouldnt buy one, its just cool to only want or buy certain brands. Palmetto makes great rifles/upppers, I ACTUALLY have one. They had a problem with shipping I think 3 uppers that had major problems with the gas tube. This has been corrected and the company has made changes in its building process. Im sure my little Pony and and all the other "top tier" guys had some problems along the way. There are other forums out there where you can read threads directly from one of the founders of the company. Buy with confidence PSA makes a fine rifle.

Really? Do you even know anything about why I own firearms or what I do with them? How can you make a judgment about me like that? Did you not see my earlier post?

I would not buy a PSA for the reasons I already brought forth in this thread. I rely on every AR I own to, if necessary, defend my life. Everyone must perform flawlessly for thousands of rounds. I want a proven track record of reliability.

Colt has made hundreds of thousands of AR15s for almost 50 years. It is the current supplier of the M4 Carbine to the US Military. BCM, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense...these companies aren't at the top because of the materials alone. Good on Spikes and PSA for using correct materials but they are not proven.

To say that "PSA is just as good as...." is justification for being a cheap skate and nothing else.

However, if you want an AR to take to the range, that may have problems, that you aren't left wondering "what if?" a PSA is an absolutely fine rifle and a big step above Bushmaster, RRA, etc.

I don't know about you (actually, I'm sure I do, but I won't say it) but I don't want my rifle to have been assembled by the same jackass who used carbine length buffer tubes in midlength gas system rifles. Don't you wonder if your barrel nut is torqued to spec? What about the installation of the barrel into the barrel extension? Is the headspace correct?

If you aren't worried, its because you and I don't have similar requirements out of our rifles.

Eurodriver
11-06-2011, 10:52
I would think you would be very happy with a 4150 grade PSA upper/rifle. BCM, Colt, Spikes, DD, LMT, RRA, Stag, Armalite all make great weapons. Find one you like, lube it well and keep it clean. Be very careful of the "yeah PSA makes good stuff, but I wont buy one" crowd. Usually their avatars are not even close to thier real names and they have zero personal info in their profile. The closest some of them have gotten to an AR15 is their big brothers airsoft rifle, but they have lurked on the boards and know what the cool name brands are. When you get out from behind the keyboard and into reality the game changes.

Another group to pay close attention to is the spec sheet crowd. These guys like the way their gun looks on a spec sheet better than the way it shoots. They know that it should have M4 feedramps, hammer forged steeel, 1:7 twist rate, mil spec everything. But then when you ask them what the differnce in twist rates is they usually answer with "1:7 is better". There are a lot of people here with great advice to give, you just gotta be careful sometimes though.

The reason I say "PSA is great, but I wouldn't buy one" is because

A.) The differences and proven track record of other brands has been stated hundreds of times on many different forums. Why waste my time doing it when the information is out there?

and B.) Because he is going to buy whatever he is going to buy regardless of what I tell him, mainly because of people like you.

1:9 twist is pretty inferior when you start shooting 77gr SMKs at 600 yards out of a 12.5" barrel. (Let me guess, it can't be done right?)

The irony here is that you are the one providing the bad information while telling him to watch out for others.

bmoore
11-06-2011, 11:09
Really? Do you even know anything about why I own firearms or what I do with them? How can you make a judgment about me like that? Did you not see my earlier post?

I would not buy a PSA for the reasons I already brought forth in this thread. I rely on every AR I own to, if necessary, defend my life. Everyone must perform flawlessly for thousands of rounds. I want a proven track record of reliability.

Colt has made hundreds of thousands of AR15s for almost 50 years. It is the current supplier of the M4 Carbine to the US Military. BCM, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense...these companies aren't at the top because of the materials alone. Good on Spikes and PSA for using correct materials but they are not proven.

To say that "PSA is just as good as...." is justification for being a cheap skate and nothing else.

However, if you want an AR to take to the range, that may have problems, that you aren't left wondering "what if?" a PSA is an absolutely fine rifle and a big step above Bushmaster, RRA, etc.

I don't know about you (actually, I'm sure I do, but I won't say it) but I don't want my rifle to have been assembled by the same jackass who used carbine length buffer tubes in midlength gas system rifles. Don't you wonder if your barrel nut is torqued to spec? What about the installation of the barrel into the barrel extension? Is the headspace correct?

If you aren't worried, its because you and I don't have similar requirements out of our rifles.

Im not worried about it in the slightest. I got the exact reason (from PSA) why the carbine length tubes were inserted, it was a fluke. You honestly think that Colts have never come off the production line without a problem? If you do, your not operating in reality. I dont own a RRA or a Bushmaster and probably never will but once again getting back to reality, there are people with thousands of rounds down them with zero problems. Not everybody goes to carbine courses and shoots 10,000 rounds a year.

bmoore
11-06-2011, 11:11
The reason I say "PSA is great, but I wouldn't buy one" is because

A.) The differences and proven track record of other brands has been stated hundreds of times on many different forums. Why waste my time doing it when the information is out there?

and B.) Because he is going to buy whatever he is going to buy regardless of what I tell him, mainly because of people like you.

1:9 twist is pretty inferior when you start shooting 77gr SMKs at 600 yards out of a 12.5" barrel. (Let me guess, it can't be done right?)

The irony here is that you are the one providing the bad information while telling him to watch out for others.

Im pretty sure I am giving advice that is just fine. Im not telling him to buy complete crap so that statement is useless.

If your trying to stabilize 77grn rounds for 600 yard shooting, do yourself a huge favor- buy an M1A or FAL in 7.62/308. I would kick my own ass if I was shooting 5.56 out of a 12.5 inch barrel at 600 yards.

Eurodriver
11-06-2011, 11:33
Never said Colts have never come off the line with issues, did I? Again, you like to judge me and assume I think the way you are.

I'm saying the percentage of Colts with issues to the percentage of PSAs with issues is significantly less.

Look man, lets just agree to disagree. You obviously bought a PSA and you're satisfied. Good for you.


If your trying to stabilize 77grn rounds for 600 yard shooting, do yourself a huge favor- buy an M1A or FAL in 7.62/308. I would kick my own ass if I was shooting 5.56 out of a 12.5 inch barrel at 600 yards.

Ahh, got it. You're one of those shooters.

Well, just so you're aware its very possible if you actually get out and try it.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90949

Also, if you view my thread on this forum you'll see I have a SCAR 17S. No need to bring that out if the AR does it just as well.

Edit: and for what its worth I've shot an LMT Mk18 through the USMC KD rifle qualification using a TA31RCOM4 Acog with a score of 230. That includes 500 yard shooting. 10.5" barrel.

I'd like to see what one could do with a 1:9 barrel. Legitimate curiosity, not picking an arguement.

bmoore
11-06-2011, 12:22
Never said Colts have never come off the line with issues, did I? Again, you like to judge me and assume I think the way you are.

I'm saying the percentage of Colts with issues to the percentage of PSAs with issues is significantly less.

Look man, lets just agree to disagree. You obviously bought a PSA and you're satisfied. Good for you.



Ahh, got it. You're one of those shooters.

Well, just so you're aware its very possible if you actually get out and try it.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90949

Also, if you view my thread on this forum you'll see I have a SCAR 17S. No need to bring that out if the AR does it just as well.

Edit: and for what its worth I've shot an LMT Mk18 through the USMC KD rifle qualification using a TA31RCOM4 Acog with a score of 230. That includes 500 yard shooting. 10.5" barrel.

I'd like to see what one could do with a 1:9 barrel. Legitimate curiosity, not picking an arguement.

I will agree to disagree. You are obviously well versed and a great rifleman (I checked out the thread). It just seems like sometimes new people get advice that is less emphasized on learning to run and maintain the rifle they have, rather than dumping thousands in brand x, maybe I came off in a crappy way- I do that sometimes. Thanks for being a marine, I appreciate it. My great uncle won numerous marksman awards in the Army during WW2 with a Garand (30-06). Im gonna stick to my guns for 7.62 beyond 300 yards/meters, although the 5.56 obviously can stay accurate. Being just a coyote hunter and not in battle, Im not much of 223 fan on the other side 250 yards.

Eurodriver
11-06-2011, 12:34
I will agree to disagree. You are obviously well versed and a great rifleman (I checked out the thread). It just seems like sometimes new people get advice that is less emphasized on learning to run and maintain the rifle they have, rather than dumping thousands in brand x, maybe I came off in a crappy way- I do that sometimes. Thanks for being a marine, I appreciate it. My great uncle won numerous marksman awards in the Army during WW2 with a Garand (30-06). Im gonna stick to my guns for 7.62 beyond 300 yards/meters, although the 5.56 obviously can stay accurate. Being just a coyote hunter and not in battle, Im not much of 223 fan on the other side 250 yards.

The target at 500 yards for the maximum amount of points at 20x40 inches. Not exactly a coyote ;) I'm sure for more precise shooting a longer barrel is helpful, but not always. But it definitely can be done, thanks in large part to the high muzzle velocity of the 5.56.

As you can tell in my first post in this thread, I have no beef with PSA. The more companies that produce milspec AR15s the better. When I said "I would not buy one" I merely meant that I have confidence in the "known" brands, and would rather stick to them.

For nearly every AR15 shooter (including me) a PSA rifle would be great. Its definitely steps above the DPMS amalgamations, however, for me I would rather spend the extra cash on what I'm more comfortable with. Its not like when BCM started making rifles they were the top dogs. Its entirely possible that in a few years PSA's low prices and great products may be at the top, and I may be on this very forum talking about my new bad ass PSA Carbine.

But for now, I will let them work out their growing pains. :cool:

I sincerely hope you enjoy your rifle. The more good PSAs out there the more they will grow and the more competitive they will be. Competition is always best for the consumer.

bmoore
11-06-2011, 12:54
The target at 500 yards for the maximum amount of points at 20x40 inches. Not exactly a coyote ;) I'm sure for more precise shooting a longer barrel is helpful, but not always. But it definitely can be done, thanks in large part to the high muzzle velocity of the 5.56.

As you can tell in my first post in this thread, I have no beef with PSA. The more companies that produce milspec AR15s the better. When I said "I would not buy one" I merely meant that I have confidence in the "known" brands, and would rather stick to them.

For nearly every AR15 shooter (including me) a PSA rifle would be great. Its definitely steps above the DPMS amalgamations, however, for me I would rather spend the extra cash on what I'm more comfortable with. Its not like when BCM started making rifles they were the top dogs. Its entirely possible that in a few years PSA's low prices and great products may be at the top, and I may be on this very forum talking about my new bad ass PSA Carbine.

But for now, I will let them work out their growing pains. :cool:

Yeah I can certainly agree with that. Most of what my point was about the energy loss after 250 yards, I have no doubts about the accuracy. I use a 22-250 and a 243 for hunting. In my experience those rounds anchor the predators much better on longer shots. I dont make a ton of long shots but even at 100 yards you can see the difference in those calibers. 22-250 and 243 sit them down like you pulled their cord out of the electrical socket.

Now your gonna really hate me, check out my DPMS A2 upper. I wanted a traditional A2 non removable carry handle upper a while ago, Midway had these for like 400 bucks I think. Its got a Stag A2 stock kit and PSA LPK with a JD lower. Its actually damn accurate and has eaten a variety of ammo, my plan is if and when something lets go I will upgrade it. I was going to put a LMT bolt carrier group in it when I bought it but I figure I will just shoot it til it stops. The 20" A2 AR is my favorite of all the varieties.

Javelin
11-06-2011, 13:17
Careful guys...the buyers of PSA (Spikes 2.0) are very defensive of the couple hundred bucks they saved.

Prepare to be labeled a BCM/DD/Colt/Noveske fan-boys, keyboard commando, cubicle commando, etc.

They will also accuse you of not being a serious shooter and one that only buys what others tell them to buy.

Whole lot of butt-hurt in the PSA circle...

But hey, fit and finish are perfect and it's been flawless for 200 rnds!

Haha. I agree. When I first started buying ARs I was under the guiess that I could find a cheaper deal by looking around - and I did. I found LOTS of "great" deals out there on DPMS, CMMG, whatever. And now it is PSA.

Having gone through the "lets buy this bargain" and "lets buy that bargain" phase and almost a dozen bargain purchases later I found that I only buy Noveske rifles. I guess I was on that save a buck on a rifle kick but shoot a bargain rifle along side of one such as a Noveske and the "bargain rifle" becomes very apparent.

But to each their own. :wavey:

HAIL CAESAR
11-06-2011, 16:55
Well, I will say this.....

I do understand why people buy the best and the most expensive...
I understand why people look for the best budget buy....

I never understood the need to kick another's teeth out because of their choice.

powder86
11-07-2011, 07:54
Well, I will say this.....

I do understand why people buy the best and the most expensive...
I understand why people look for the best budget buy....

I never understood the need to kick another's teeth out because of their choice.

best thing i've read all day.

powder86
11-07-2011, 07:55
on this same palmetto page they have a middy for 100 bucks more. is a middy that much better than a carbine?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/8925.php

is this middy the exact same rifle as the carbine (same technical specs) except for the gas system?

mick238
11-07-2011, 07:59
No body wants to comment on the one usaammo is selling?

Also for the purists who makes the closest replica of a true m4?

bmoore
11-07-2011, 09:01
No body wants to comment on the one usaammo is selling?

Also for the purists who makes the closest replica of a true m4?

I dont think anyone has experience with the usaammo one. I think Colt would be your best bet if your trying to as close to an M4 as possible.

TedG
11-07-2011, 09:06
on this same palmetto page they have a middy for 100 bucks more. is a middy that much better than a carbine?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/8925.php

is this middy the exact same rifle as the carbine (same technical specs) except for the gas system?

Mid-length is the current rage. Everybody has an opinion about mid vs car length rifles, and the argument is not worth opening again and again.

As for prices, I doubt that the middy deserves more money, but supply and demand will drive the market. If you really want a middy, is it worth $100 more to you? Other companies do the same. It's not a bad business practice.

I can remember when Harley's carried a "premium" above the MSRP and they had a 6 month waiting list. That's what drove the market. Now, you can negociate a price that is less than MSRP.

If you are willing to wait, the price of a middy may come down. If you can't wait.... pay the premium.

pleaforwar
11-07-2011, 09:07
No body wants to comment on the one usaammo is selling?

Also for the purists who makes the closest replica of a true m4?

Sure.

1) That rifle is not the backbone of the U.S. Armed Services
2) You will not be a "high-speed operator" if you go through that training.

I don't stray into these PSA vs. Brand X arguments often because I can't comment on PSA's quality. What I can say is that I would rather roll the dice with a brand that produces to a higher standard of specifications than a brand who doesn't disclose the quality of their product.

In other words, I'd rather wait a few months and save for a budget rifle from a proven manufacturer.

TedG
11-07-2011, 09:07
I dont think anyone has experience with the usaammo one. I think Colt would be your best bet if your trying to as close to an M4 as possible.

+1 :cool:

bmoore
11-07-2011, 09:39
Sure.

1) That rifle is not the backbone of the U.S. Armed Services
2) You will not be a "high-speed operator" if you go through that training.

I don't stray into these PSA vs. Brand X arguments often because I can't comment on PSA's quality. What I can say is that I would rather roll the dice with a brand that produces to a higher standard of specifications than a brand who doesn't disclose the quality of their product.

In other words, I'd rather wait a few months and save for a budget rifle from a proven manufacturer.

I seriously laughed out loud when that guy said "high speed operator" in the video.

mick238
11-07-2011, 12:14
I dont think anyone has experience with the usaammo one. I think Colt would be your best bet if your trying to as close to an M4 as possible.

Haha normally that doesnt stop people from throwing out opinions. ;)

powder86
11-07-2011, 14:08
Mid-length is the current rage. Everybody has an opinion about mid vs car length rifles, and the argument is not worth opening again and again.

As for prices, I doubt that the middy deserves more money, but supply and demand will drive the market. If you really want a middy, is it worth $100 more to you? Other companies do the same. It's not a bad business practice.

I can remember when Harley's carried a "premium" above the MSRP and they had a 6 month waiting list. That's what drove the market. Now, you can negociate a price that is less than MSRP.

If you are willing to wait, the price of a middy may come down. If you can't wait.... pay the premium.

it's not my intent to start any major debate. I'm really just learning all i can about ARs right now. and i keep stumbling on to this idea that middys are supposed to be better than carbine. just looking to confirm or deny this. i have no real investment either way. is one actually better than another? or is it just negligible?

sigman69
11-07-2011, 19:41
this one looks good for the money

http://palmettostatearmory.com/8923.php

I think that STAG Arms makes good AR's for the money.

WoodenPlank
11-07-2011, 20:07
it's not my intent to start any major debate. I'm really just learning all i can about ARs right now. and i keep stumbling on to this idea that middys are supposed to be better than carbine. just looking to confirm or deny this. i have no real investment either way. is one actually better than another? or is it just negligible?

My understanding is the middy gas system runs a little smoother in a 16" barrel, and results in less stress and strain on the BCG, plus less felt recoil. Can't use a middy system on a 10.5" barrel, so I don't currently have a middy. :rofl:

Baba Louie
11-08-2011, 04:04
Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

Good price point on the PSA offering. Probably goes bang just fine.

Even Colt, when first making the M16, had a helluva learning curve that actually cost young mens lives in combat. (combined with USA decision on powder, chrome or not within, clean/no clean, etc) They've learned a lot in 50 years to everyones benefit.

But... I once had my 6721 jam up bad using a friends reloads and it (the Colt) only cost me a few dollars more... like twice PSAs carbine offering. I kept the Colt, ditched the ammo, learned a lesson. My life was not on any line at the time, simple recreational shooting... thank goodness. :whistling:

Every company has got to start somewhere.

Frog1
11-08-2011, 04:40
Most parts are parts made for AR's. You would be surprised who makes them.

If I was someone who doesn't know how to work on an AR, I would stick with the better brands and the warranty.

But for me, I am not afraid of any of the knock offs or parts kits. I am still trying to figure out the value of M4 feed ramps on a semi auto rifle. To each his own.

powder86
11-08-2011, 08:15
just ordered one... but as i was filling out the information there was no where to put in FFL info... so i had to email them to try get that info to them.

now i gotta figure out what flip up rear sights to use. recommendations that hold zero?

bmoore
11-08-2011, 08:40
just ordered one... but as i was filling out the information there was no where to put in FFL info... so i had to email them to try get that info to them.

now i gotta figure out what flip up rear sights to use. recommendations that hold zero?

My Magpul flip up BUIS has been fantastic. Now remember, I dont have 14,000 rounds down it, more like a few hundred. Magpul makes nice equipment though.

Eurodriver
11-08-2011, 08:55
Most parts are parts made for AR's. You would be surprised who makes them.

But for me, I am not afraid of any of the knock offs or parts kits. I am still trying to figure out the value of M4 feed ramps on a semi auto rifle. To each his own.

I agree, alot of parts are supplied by the same manufacturers and stamped with different brand names. A perfect example is a Spikes Tactical Stripped Lower receiver I bought because aside from the roll mark, it is just like 99% of all the other forged, stripped lower receivers.

As for M4 feedramps, whether or not the rifle is full or semi auto is irrelavent. The speed which the bolt carrier moves is exactly the same. The M4 Feedramps are beneficial because of the higher operating pressures and carrier speeds in the carbine and mid length gas systems.

How that works, I'm not sure. One would think that since the BCG comes to a full stop on the ejection cycle that its return to battery speed would always be the same regardless how much gas got it back there.

Tango 1Zero
11-08-2011, 09:17
I recently bought one of their 16" Carbine kits. I ran over 300 rounds through it Saturday with not one malfunction.
M4 ramps were lined up. This isnt my first AR. My first was a Bushmaster and my second was a Model 1 on an American Spirit Arms lower. Everybody was against ASA then. Its crap etc. It turned out to be my best AR I have ever owned. I have had Armalites, Eagle, Spikes. I have shot a few colts but I dont play the brand name game anymore. Unless you want a certain build up of parts your still getting American made parts from Government suppliers.
PSA stands behind their products also.
I built my Carbine for less than $600

powder86
11-08-2011, 10:41
My Magpul flip up BUIS has been fantastic. Now remember, I dont have 14,000 rounds down it, more like a few hundred. Magpul makes nice equipment though.
is that a polymer one? i'm not inherently opposed to polymer, but i do assume that an aluminum or metal sight of some kind may hold zero better for a flip up sight.
i'm glad you've had a good experience with yours though. i'd consider it. i'm interested in how it holds up for another 1000 rounds or so.

bmoore
11-08-2011, 13:17
is that a polymer one? i'm not inherently opposed to polymer, but i do assume that an aluminum or metal sight of some kind may hold zero better for a flip up sight.
i'm glad you've had a good experience with yours though. i'd consider it. i'm interested in how it holds up for another 1000 rounds or so.

Yes its polymer. Troy would be my choice for metal/aluminum.

redwzrd
11-08-2011, 19:21
:popcorn: who need tv when you got threads like this

Matthew Courtney
11-09-2011, 06:56
Every brand is a crap shoot. From time to time well established brands let QC slide to reduce costs and boost profits while cashing in on their brand name.

Don't trust your gun. Don't trust GT. Trust yourself. Get some training while testing some rifles and learn how to deal with malfunctions. Then if you think that you could fight better with a different rifle, get a different rifle. There won't likely be any glocktalkers present when you have goblins to deal with, so the needs of other GT'ers shouldn't matter.

Jitterbug
11-09-2011, 07:28
I own a BCM and a RR, both have stainless barrels, both cost me around $1200 about 2 years ago. Great carbines both.

The keyboard commandos tell me my RR is junk and it will jam and break and parts will fall off.

Fact is they both have the same round count and both run great after many thousands of rounds. The RR is a 1MOA shooter the BCM is a 2 MOA shooter.

I didn't know squat and read every review, chart and forum out there.

All I can say after being a "gun guy" for over 50 years is that for a simple parts gun, AR/M4's are overpriced, being a small business owner I'm ok with it. Especially since most of them are made right here in the good old USA. So if anyone can squeak more $$$ out of a simple carbine with marketing then more power to them...makes me a Gunfighter.

I hadn't heard about PSA's offering until now, good for them and their $599 carbine, free market at work and I hope it works out to be a good little carbine for them and their purchasers, about time.

TedG
11-09-2011, 08:17
I own a BCM and a RR, both have stainless barrels, both cost me around $1200 about 2 years ago. Great carbines both.

The keyboard commandos tell me my RR is junk and it will jam and break and parts will fall off.

Fact is they both have the same round count and both run great after many thousands of rounds. The RR is a 1MOA shooter the BCM is a 2 MOA shooter.

I didn't know squat and read every review, chart and forum out there.

All I can say after being a "gun guy" for over 50 years is that for a simple parts gun, AR/M4's are overpriced, being a small business owner I'm ok with it. Especially since most of them are made right here in the good old USA. So if anyone can squeak more $$$ out of a simple carbine with marketing then more power to them...makes me a Gunfighter.

I hadn't heard about PSA's offering until now, good for them and their $599 carbine, free market at work and I hope it works out to be a good little carbine for them and their purchasers, about time.

Good post.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i90/TedG954/INFIDELAPPROVED-4sm2.jpg

punkey71
11-10-2011, 13:02
Sorry I'm late...just saw this. You have two SS barreled AR's and can't get sub MOA out of either of them? Brands be damned...seriously? Is it a Tasco scope and USGI trigger?

Come on man...you've gotta be kidding me. Two quality equipped guns with triggers, rests, optics and match ammo should both be sub MOA.

If either won't do it with with the above there is a problem....and it ain't the gun.

Sorry.

If you are saying you are shooting range ammo with a USGI trigger and a crappy low power optic sitting on your range bag then sure. Today you get 1 moa, tomorrow 3 moa and the next day you are at 2 moa.


I own a BCM and a RR, both have stainless barrels, both cost me around $1200 about 2 years ago. Great carbines both.

The keyboard commandos tell me my RR is junk and it will jam and break and parts will fall off.

Fact is they both have the same round count and both run great after many thousands of rounds. The RR is a 1MOA shooter the BCM is a 2 MOA shooter.

I didn't know squat and read every review, chart and forum out there.

All I can say after being a "gun guy" for over 50 years is that for a simple parts gun, AR/M4's are overpriced, being a small business owner I'm ok with it. Especially since most of them are made right here in the good old USA. So if anyone can squeak more $$$ out of a simple carbine with marketing then more power to them...makes me a Gunfighter.

I hadn't heard about PSA's offering until now, good for them and their $599 carbine, free market at work and I hope it works out to be a good little carbine for them and their purchasers, about time.

cciman
11-10-2011, 18:40
This same discussion applies to cubic zirconia, generic bleach, 1911's and Rolex watches.

Rolex vs. Rolex look alike:

Similarities: they both tell time, no one else will know the difference from 10 feet away.

Differences:
Fake will not get as much maintenance, and you can buy hundreds/thousands before matching the price of a Rolex (therefore, disposable)

Real is waterproof
Real needs yearly servicing for $350, genuine parts are not cheap either
Fake may not last as long, especially since you will never service it-- but heck, just buy another.