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Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 13:45
Will be buying my first AR looking to spend under a grand, later on I'm sure I'll buy another, probably a good BCM or DD or LWRC. Opinions?

MrMurphy
10-31-2011, 13:49
You should be able to buy a Colt, DD, BCM or other for under a grand if you shop right.

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:02
You should be able to buy a Colt, DD, BCM or other for under a grand if you shop right.
Well dang i better get looking lol all colts and DD i have seen are like 1200

mdfd
10-31-2011, 14:18
Skadoosh - I feel exactly what you're sayin man...I started out thinking/asking the same question...

Well, I don't have an AR yet, but now I think I have a greater appreciation of the different kinds out there vs. what I want...

I want a HF barrel in 16", 1:7 twist, mid-length gas system, all mil-spec, and most of all a piston system. Anything else I can add/change later to suit my tastes...

Unfortunately, I have found none that are at $1k or less. Therefore I have just resorted to waiting to save up and keep looking for the right deal instead of "settling" to buy an AR that doesn't have what I want and spending more in the long run by buying multiple AR's...

Solid Snake
10-31-2011, 14:19
DD, BCM, Colt, LMT; they're worth saving up a little longer to get. you'll be happy you did. the plain jane vanilla flavored m4 types from these companies can be found for right around a grand...good luck!

edit: in my very humble opinion, don't get caught up in the piston ar craze...flame suit on...

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:28
Skadoosh - I feel exactly what you're sayin man...I started out thinking/asking the same question...

Well, I don't have an AR yet, but now I think I have a greater appreciation of the different kinds out there vs. what I want...

I want a HF barrel in 16", 1:7 twist, mid-length gas system, all mil-spec, and most of all a piston system. Anything else I can add/change later to suit my tastes...

Unfortunately, I have found none that are at $1k or less. Therefore I have just resorted to waiting to save up and keep looking for the right deal instead of "settling" to buy an AR that doesn't have what I want and spending more in the long run by buying multiple AR's...
Yea this AR will be my first but it will definately be a project so i can upgrade it and all that jazz it will definately be an expensive piece when i am finished.

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:31
DD, BCM, Colt, LMT; they're worth saving up a little longer to get. you'll be happy you did. the plain jane vanilla flavored m4 types from these companies can be found for right around a grand...good luck!

edit: in my very humble opinion, don't get caught up in the piston ar craze...flame suit on...
I live in Indiana, so the 1500 is the best show around and the only "plain jane" Ar's i have seen are the RRA and Bushy for like 800-900 which was what i was planning on getting. But if i found a Colt 6920 or something alike for about a grand i'd go all in on that baby. And yea if i ever get a piston gun it will be way later when i have the money to play with something that will potentially make me pull my hair out. After an AR i would probably get an M1A or an AK in 5.45.

Javelin
10-31-2011, 14:32
Colt 6920s are right at $950-$1000 and though I am not in love with a standard issue Colt M4 I do like them for what the are and at that price point almost impossible to beat.

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:35
Colt 6920s are right at $950-$1000 and though I am not in love with a standard issue Colt M4 I do like them for what the are and at that price point almost impossible to beat.
When im finished with it, it wont be a "boring" M4. I just want a good base gun, something reliable, accurate, and durable. Sounds like a Colt, If i can find one.

Mayhem like Me
10-31-2011, 14:42
this

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378760

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:48
this

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378760
are these quality ar's?

stricky
10-31-2011, 14:48
I like my Stag. Bought it in parts and saved some $$$. Fairly honest review:
http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/05/stag-arms-quality-review-great-value.html

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:53
I like my Stag. Bought it in parts and saved some $$$. Fairly honest review:
http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/05/stag-arms-quality-review-great-value.html
how reliable is your stag?

Javelin
10-31-2011, 14:54
are these quality ar's?

They are ok. But seriously you will probably want to upgrade in a year or so if you buy one. If you get a Colt you will hold on to it for years and years. Or if you step it up a notch or two and get a Noveske.... Haha.

I would just buy once and cry once.

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 14:57
They are ok. But seriously you will probably want to upgrade in a year or so if you buy one. If you get a Colt you will hold on to it for years and years. Or if you step it up a notch or two and get a Noveske.... Haha.

I would just buy once and cry once.
Yea i feel ya..nice icon by the way. those bunkey busters really mess some ***** up.

Chowser
10-31-2011, 14:59
someone just had the Colt 6920 on sale for $999.
can't remember who.

I ended up buying a kit from PSA. Someone at work just gave me a free lower, so I'll probably hit up PSA again for something different.

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 15:04
someone just had the Colt 6920 on sale for $999.
can't remember who.

I ended up buying a kit from PSA. Someone at work just gave me a free lower, so I'll probably hit up PSA again for something different.
Not sure if i'd like ordering a gun online, gotta pay transfer fees shipping...all that.

GAFinch
10-31-2011, 16:04
someone just had the Colt 6920 on sale for $999.
can't remember who.

G&R Tactical

StevieJ
10-31-2011, 16:11
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920

akapennypincher
10-31-2011, 16:48
Great THREAD!

Skadoosh
10-31-2011, 17:35
Great THREAD!
I hope that's not sarcasm:worried:

american lockpicker
10-31-2011, 17:39
Armalite but for like 11 hundred you can get a Colt...

jrs93accord
10-31-2011, 17:53
COLT SP6920 SPORTER 16.1 HB 20 223 20

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/140/products_id/75197

crazymoose
10-31-2011, 18:00
They are ok. But seriously you will probably want to upgrade in a year or so if you buy one. If you get a Colt you will hold on to it for years and years. Or if you step it up a notch or two and get a Noveske.... Haha.

I would just buy once and cry once.

I'd opt for the CHF barrel if I were going PSA. Last time I checked, that's not an option from Colt (unless they've started imported the Colt Canada/Diemaco barrels).

Two_Clicks
10-31-2011, 18:10
Check out CMMG and Spikes

CMMG didn't have any bargin bin rifles listed tonight but they will list rifles that the finish my not perfectly match etc.

spikestactical.com

cmmginc.com

another thing I would recommend is assembling your own rifle, you can save a bunch and you'll gain a good understanding of how they work.

I own one of each, bought my CMMG complete and built the spikes, love em both and they are G2G IMHO

GSSF17
10-31-2011, 18:36
This- hands down, bar none. CHF barrel and a 400$ optic. Dang.

....and all for 1k OTD. Period.

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2557.php

HAIL CAESAR
10-31-2011, 18:46
Best AR for under a grand...

The one I am currently building.:tongueout:

vrex
10-31-2011, 21:32
Armalite middy at buds...833.00

Mil spec barrel steel, m4 feed ramps, armalite trigger, h buffer...tested bolt and a mid length gas system, what more could you want? (except some ammo) Oh, and you'll need a rear sight.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_135/products_id/53738

MrMurphy
11-01-2011, 02:58
Transfer fee: $25-35

Shipping: $40 or so, maybe less.

Still around a grand.

You can get other brands, but Colt is still the standard, and a BCM or DD will hold up well.

brickboy240
11-01-2011, 10:01
Palmetto State Armory.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/8923.php

600 bucks plus 15 shipping....slap a cheap rear sight on and you're in biz!

Same features as the 1000 dollar Colt, BCM and others: 1/7 twist, mil spec buffer tube, MPI tested parts, etc.

Spend the extra 400 on mags and goodies.

...this is what I am doing.

- brickboy240

punkey71
11-01-2011, 10:12
Palmetto has good specs but until they put a few people with above a 67 IQ assembling them and have an in house test fire facility I'll stick with a know manufacturer. They are working on both of those issues from what i've read.

They seem to to addressing the mistakes but they are some pretty big ones.

Anyone can buy the good parts but I think we know why their prices are so good (and they are, for the specs). They don't have the assembly expertise and live fire testing the bigger guys do.

I really hope they get on the ball as competition is great. Personally I won't save a couple hundred bucks on a crap-shoot.

People are trying to save a couple hundred bucks on an item that is not just a potential life saving tool, but something they will most likely have for the same amount of time they might have 2-5 cars costing $15,000-50,000 EACH.

Penny wise, pound foolish.

But hey, someone's gotta buy the early ones so they get the kinks worked out... :supergrin:

Palmetto State Armory.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/8923.php

600 bucks plus 15 shipping....slap a cheap rear sight on and you're in biz!

Same features as the 1000 dollar Colt, BCM and others: 1/7 twist, mil spec buffer tube, MPI tested parts, etc.

Spend the extra 400 on mags and goodies.

...this is what I am doing.

- brickboy240

Tango 1Zero
11-01-2011, 10:28
Another Palmetto armory vote. I bought a spikes tactical lower from AIM surplus $65 Now sold out.

Palmetto Armory A3 M4 Kit, chrome lined, M4 Feed ramp cuts. $489 kit.
Total was $525 shipped

Grand total built rifle with no rear sites $590 Add $15 for the transfer $605.
Theres $395 left for sights, optics, ammo, or mags.

brickboy240
11-01-2011, 10:43
Then by that line of thinking, I'd either go with a PSA rifle or suck it up and get the 6920 Colt for about 950-1000 bucks.

Why bother with anything else in the middle?

- brickboy240

Cole125
11-01-2011, 10:43
Check out CMMG... I own one of each, bought my CMMG complete and built the spikes, love em both and they are G2G IMHO
This is the way to go for a great AR for under a grand. Get a CMMG M4 LE upper with a stock and lower parts kit and a stripped lower. CMMG is high quality mil-spec stuff if you havent checked them out do it.

Here is my CMMG M4 LE I put together for less than $900, with a JD Machine lower.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm245/jcole_08/ar15003.jpg

GSSF17
11-01-2011, 10:54
Palmetto has good specs but until they put a few people with above a 67 IQ assembling them and have an in house test fire facility I'll stick with a know manufacturer. They are working on both of those issues from what i've read.

They seem to to addressing the mistakes but they are some pretty big ones.

Anyone can buy the good parts but I think we know why their prices are so good (and they are, for the specs). They don't have the assembly expertise and live fire testing the bigger guys do.

I really hope they get on the ball as competition is great. Personally I won't save a couple hundred bucks on a crap-shoot.

People are trying to save a couple hundred bucks on an item that is not just a potential life saving tool, but something they will most likely have for the same amount of time they might have 2-5 cars costing $15,000-50,000 EACH.

Penny wise, pound foolish.

But hey, someone's gotta buy the early ones so they get the kinks worked out... :supergrin:

Curious where you got your data.

My PSA rifles have been flawless. .....if cubicle SEALS want to avoid Palmetto, then good. More for me.

Javelin
11-01-2011, 11:30
Curious where you got your data.

My PSA rifles have been flawless. .....if cubicle SEALS want to avoid Palmetto, then good. More for me.

They got caught with their pants down around their ankles when customers found their gas tubes didn't even reach to the end of the gas port... Test fired before leaving factory .... Haha. Now it is still a good deal @ 999 w/ aimpoint. But it is no top teir gun. Sorry....

Javelin
11-01-2011, 11:32
I would not call cmmg top teir milspec anything. Depending on how old it is it may be a rebadged dpms.

bmoore
11-01-2011, 12:00
You gotta have a top tier rifle dude. Your either hardcore or you no core. Like all the SWAT medics say "your either SWAT or your not". Because even if you have a flawless Bushy/DPMS/Smith/CCMG/Del-ton its not the same as having a flawless top tier rifle. Because sometime (maybe around round 30,000 or 50,000) their gonna have a failure, just ask someone here.

punkey71
11-01-2011, 12:08
Curious where you got your data.

My PSA rifles have been flawless. .....if cubicle SEALS want to avoid Palmetto, then good. More for me.

Enjoy your carbine gas tube in a middy and mis-aligned ramps.
-sent from my cubicle

As usual, in this forum butt-hurt trumps factually based deficiencies.

It's not "data", it's multiple posts on GT, M4Carbine, lightfighter etc. with pictures and PSA PUBLICLY APOLOGIZING and then promising to make it better. I hope they do but I guess you're satisfied with what they offer now.

But hey, they are the cheapest assembler sourcing mil-spec parts. Who gives a crap how they put them together. Enjoy.

punkey71
11-01-2011, 12:32
So you have Bushy/DPMS/Smith/CMMG/Delton bolts and/or extractors with 30,000-50,000 rnds? This has gone full stupid. If you are in fact a PSA fan you are doing them no favors at this point.

But that was never the point...you are just justifying your budget buy. Yup...you save $200 bucks....also known as a "day at the range in ammo". Well done.

Do you have a link to your "Wolf is the best ammo ever because it makes a big bang" thread?



You gotta have a top tier rifle dude. Your either hardcore or you no core. Like all the SWAT medics say "your either SWAT or your not". Because even if you have a flawless Bushy/DPMS/Smith/CCMG/Del-ton its not the same as having a flawless top tier rifle. Because sometime (maybe around round 30,000 or 50,000) their gonna have a failure, just ask someone here.

pag23
11-01-2011, 12:32
cubicle SEAL---haha...

I have a BCM & Bushmaster....one is for fighting, one is for fun....

Depends on your needs, if I did some better research when buying my first AR, I probably wouldn't have gotten the Bushmaster, but it was "cost effective" and is a neat little range item..

Most of quality stuff I have been buying is going on the BCM...

brickboy240
11-01-2011, 14:06
The Palmetto AR is 599.

The Colt 6920 is about 1100.

Big difference.

Still, I will either do one or the other and not bother with the ones in the middle.

Around here, there is barely 100-200 dollar difference in a S&W, Stag, Bushy, DPMS or the 6920 Colt. With THAT little difference...yeah...its a no brainer to go Colt.

But when there is a 400 dollar difference...one has to take notice. Especially if you are not mr. big bucks and have kids to feed and bills to pay and this AR is to be a plinker and you're not a Blackwater operative or using it for 3 gun matches.

bmoore
11-01-2011, 14:24
So you have Bushy/DPMS/Smith/CMMG/Delton bolts and/or extractors with 30,000-50,000 rnds? This has gone full stupid. If you are in fact a PSA fan you are doing them no favors at this point.

But that was never the point...you are just justifying your budget buy. Yup...you save $200 bucks....also known as a "day at the range in ammo". Well done.

Do you have a link to your "Wolf is the best ammo ever because it makes a big bang" thread?

I load my own ammo, I do more shooting than talking about top tier this or mil spec that. Futher more, arguing about rifles that shoot varmint rounds is pointless. AR's are neat, fun and cute guns. My M1A scout is my choice for "top tier fighting rilfe" or whatever its called these days.

rem2429
11-01-2011, 15:58
Not sure if i'd like ordering a gun online, gotta pay transfer fees shipping...all that.

BUT NOT SALES TAX, and if you buy parts and can push pins together, NO EXCISE TAX EITHER.
just sayin...
I built a Daniel defense upper with rail and good parts for just over a grand (then kept spending) but it can be done.

GSSF17
11-01-2011, 16:14
Enjoy your carbine gas tube in a middy and mis-aligned ramps.
-sent from my cubicle

As usual, in this forum butt-hurt trumps factually based deficiencies.

It's not "data", it's multiple posts on GT, M4Carbine, lightfighter etc. with pictures and PSA PUBLICLY APOLOGIZING and then promising to make it better. I hope they do but I guess you're satisfied with what they offer now.

But hey, they are the cheapest assembler sourcing mil-spec parts. Who gives a crap how they put them together. Enjoy.

Deleted........

rem2429
11-01-2011, 16:14
http://www.smartgunner.com/DD-16-LW-M-STR-URG.aspx
call and make sure they have one in stock, and if so, then
buy this, 410.00
a DD or BCM bolt and carrier, about 150.00,
some magpul handguards, around 35.00 - can be included in the upper buy.
a stripped lower, at 125.00 give or take
premium lower build kit from palmetto 199.00 (at least it used to be DD made lower parts) and be done.
Important parts will be good quality.
Total for parts ~920.00
no sales tax, but you will pay some shipping.
Buy as funds allow, or upgrade as your budget allows.

punkey71
11-01-2011, 17:33
If you'd like to change topics and discuss the best fighting rifle/caliber, by all means, please do. I thought we were discussing "Best AR for under a grand".

I'll see your M1A and raise you a SCAR 17....but that really wasn't the point of this thread was it?

Derailed again by someone's feelings getting hurt.

Back to PSA AR rifles....please.

I load my own ammo, I do more shooting than talking about top tier this or mil spec that. Futher more, arguing about rifles that shoot varmint rounds is pointless. AR's are neat, fun and cute guns. My M1A scout is my choice for "top tier fighting rilfe" or whatever its called these days.

HAIL CAESAR
11-01-2011, 17:36
Shoot more...theorize less.

bmylesk
11-01-2011, 17:46
RRA elite op. 2

i got mine for 950.00

punkey71
11-01-2011, 18:02
Shoot more...theorize less.

Theorizing about the potential long term reliability of PSA rifles and excuses for crappy assembly seems to be the flavor of the month for GT-AR15.

If I hear "fit and finish are perfect" and ""flawless for 200 rounds" I'm gonna puke.

Sharkey
11-01-2011, 18:15
RRA elite op. 2

i got mine for 950.00

Si'. I like mine. A bit heavy though.

Tier 1, Tier 2, frankengun, etc. Most here aren't going to the sandbox. Some here will rely on theirs in a squad and some might just keep it at home for SD and head to the range on occasion. 30K rounds and it goes bust? Well yeah, it should. Hopefully at this point you've replaced some springs, firing pin, checked your staking on the gas key, etc. Most here will never get close to 30-40K rounds on their rifle.

My Bushy rode around in my squad to protect me. Every time I went to the range to qualify, it went bang. If I paid attention I could hit metal targets at 200 yards with good old A2 sites.

Get what you want, shoot the snot out of it, and be happy. Back in the day, me and another guy's Mini's were running like a top while other AR's on the line were jamming. Of course this was over a decade ago before all the top tiers came into production.

HAIL CAESAR
11-01-2011, 18:33
Theorizing about the potential long term reliability of PSA rifles and excuses for crappy assembly seems to be the flavor of the month for GT-AR15.

If I hear "fit and finish are perfect" and ""flawless for 200 rounds" I'm gonna puke.


I get tired of things too. But the """"flawless for 200 rounds""" bothers me way less on the whole compared to;

"Your going to die if you don't have a(insert favorite brand of month). It will fail you in a firefight!" says the tactical taco stand employee.

I really would like to hear about peoples real experiences with products. Limited or vast, good or bad.

KB2MBC
11-01-2011, 18:40
Smith & Wesson has an entry level for around $700. You can spend the leftover $300 for a case of ammo.

Line Rider
11-01-2011, 18:47
COLT SP6920 SPORTER 16.1 HB 20 223 20

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/140/products_id/75197

Ditto! Colt has my vote.

bmoore
11-01-2011, 18:49
Back on track- buy a PSA 4150/mil spec grade rifle and spend the rest on ammo. While your shooting the BCM, DD, Colt and LMT guys will be standing back telling each other how relaible their rifles are and how all the hardcore shooters have them, probably while they are reading SWAT magazine or measuring each others bolt carrier stake jobs. You may even hear "mine is more staked than yours".

bmoore
11-01-2011, 18:50
I get tired of things too. But the """"flawless for 200 rounds""" bothers me way less on the whole compared to;

"Your going to die if you don't have a(insert favorite brand of month). It will fail you in a firefight!" says the tactical taco stand employee.

I really would like to hear about peoples real experiences with products. Limited or vast, good or bad.

Good post

punkey71
11-01-2011, 20:08
Google Pat Roger's BCM "Filthy 14".

I can't afford to fire 40,000 rnds (in a NON-hammer forged barrel) so I guess I'll go with his documented results.

If we were talking about car seats for our kids, folks would say "buy the best", "get the proven model".

Guns...not so much.

Buyer - "I wanna save 10-20% on a car seat for my kid, what should I buy?"

Seller - "Acme has a brand new, untested car seat that states it's as good as the best one's out there."

Buyer - "But sir, that car seat looks nice but hasn't had the rigorous testing of the others that are recommended and proven"

Seller - "YOU SAID YOU WANNA SAVE 10-20% - WHY DO YOU HATE THE ACME CAR SEAT COMPANY?"

Makes sense...huh?

Good post

I get tired of things too. But the """"flawless for 200 rounds""" bothers me way less on the whole compared to;

"Your going to die if you don't have a(insert favorite brand of month). It will fail you in a firefight!" says the tactical taco stand employee.

I really would like to hear about peoples real experiences with products. Limited or vast, good or bad.

txgunguy
11-01-2011, 20:11
Love how some people have a plinking ar then a "fighting ar". I:rofl::rofl::rofl: every single time I read this. What are you fighting? Bowling pins as opposed to paper targets?

To answer the original question, any of the big brands under 1k will be good. Personal experience tells me olympic should be avoided. My rock river has been great. The castle nut isn't staked, the gas key is. The bore isn't chrome lined!!!!!! The horror! I won't be taking that rifle into a combat zone. I'm realistic about what it is. Ask yourself, do you need a top of the line rifle for what you will be doing?

HAIL CAESAR
11-01-2011, 20:16
Punkey,

I agree with you. If you don't shoot much or know anything about rifles it is best just to get a something an expert recommends till you can actually get some experience yourself.
In your situation it is the best thing to do.

But at the same time don't talk about things you don't have experience with. If you have personal knowledge and experience with a product, please do post.


txgunguy,
I agree with what you said too.
:wavey:
Al

vrex
11-01-2011, 20:32
Transfer fee: $25-35

Shipping: $40 or so, maybe less.

Still around a grand.

You can get other brands, but Colt is still the standard, and a BCM or DD will hold up well.


Shipping is free. I am no cheerleader for any particular brand, but I do think the mid length gas system is optimal for a 16" barrel. I also believe Armalite to be on the same level as colt for quality when you look at the major components (barrel steel,fit, feedramps, tested bolt....) I'll take an Armalite middly over the colt 16" carbine any day. Now if Colt made a middy, well.......

Also, I think the Armalite still comes with a 1 in 9 twist...it's been my experience that unless you are going to shoot fairly uncommon 77 grain bullets often, the 1 in 9 twist is better for general 55-62 grain use as far as accuracy and barrel wear. Again, this is just my experience.

vrex
11-01-2011, 20:37
Love how some people have a plinking ar then a "fighting ar". I:rofl::rofl::rofl: every single time I read this. What are you fighting? Bowling pins as opposed to paper targets?

To answer the original question, any of the big brands under 1k will be good. Personal experience tells me olympic should be avoided. My rock river has been great. The castle nut isn't staked, the gas key is. The bore isn't chrome lined!!!!!! The horror! I won't be taking that rifle into a combat zone. I'm realistic about what it is. Ask yourself, do you need a top of the line rifle for what you will be doing?

LMAO good post

Buy something, and run it hard. Every rifle becomes an individual and will have its own characteristics. I have a RRA lower and a Model one sales 20" upper in 5.45 that has 6,000 rounds thorugh it, with one ftf when I was prone putting pressure on the 30 round mag at around 2500 rounds.

txgunguy
11-01-2011, 20:39
txgunguy,
I agree with what you said too.
:wavey:
Al

Glad someone here is reasonable as well.

Whoever posted that mid-length armalite, that is a great deal. I would jump on that if I were looking for my first rifle.

punkey71
11-01-2011, 20:41
Thanks Caeser...I get it. You have no idea who I am or how much I shoot but try to discredit my opinion. Personal attacks not based on fact or knowledge are as old as the internet itself. I encourage you to continue.

This thread is typical of GT-AR15. Lots of hurt feelings and personal attacks when facts become few and far between. Folks looking for others to stroke them on their latest budget AR...tell me my gun looks cool...what optic do I need for an all in one HD/long range sniper/varmint gun? What's the best this or that. Do I need a plate carrier? Can I leave my mags loaded for extended periods?

I've never seen such a massive attempt to save 10-20% on a product.

Is there any question why Constructor left?






Punkey,

I agree with you. If you don't shoot much or know anything about rifles it is best just to get a something an expert recommends till you can actually get some experience yourself.
In your situation it is the best thing to do.

But at the same time don't talk about things you don't have experience with. If you have personal knowledge and experience with a product, please do post.


txgunguy,
I agree with what you said too.
:wavey:
Al

vrex
11-01-2011, 20:42
Glad someone here is reasonable as well.

Whoever posted that mid-length armalite, that is a great deal. I would jump on that if I were looking for my first rifle.



That'd be me and I think it's the best deal on the internet.

txgunguy
11-01-2011, 20:45
That'd be me and I think it's the best deal on the internet.

Just saw that you did. Incredible deal. Armalite knows how to make a quality rifle, that is a fact. If I wasn't in the process of building one, I would buy this.

punkey71
11-01-2011, 20:46
I've never driven a Yugo (no experience with it), but I'm pretty sure it's a piece of crap.

Let me guess....you think it's as good as a Mercedes.

Punkey,

I agree with you. If you don't shoot much or know anything about rifles it is best just to get a something an expert recommends till you can actually get some experience yourself.
In your situation it is the best thing to do.

But at the same time don't talk about things you don't have experience with. If you have personal knowledge and experience with a product, please do post.


txgunguy,
I agree with what you said too.
:wavey:
Al

Cole125
11-01-2011, 20:55
Thanks Caeser...I get it. You have no idea who I am or how much I shoot but try to discredit my opinion. Personal attacks not based on fact or knowledge are as old as the internet itself. I encourage you to continue.

This thread is typical of GT-AR15. Lots of hurt feelings and personal attacks when facts become few and far between. Folks looking for others to stroke them on their latest budget AR...tell me my gun looks cool...what optic do I need for an all in one HD/long range sniper/varmint gun? What's the best this or that. Do I need a plate carrier? Can I leave my mags loaded for extended periods?

I've never seen such a massive attempt to save 10-20% on a product.

Is there any question why Constructor left?
:rofl: :rofl: That about sums it up. Truth be told the OP will be happy with most any entry level AR if all he wants to do is plink. Lots of brand whores on here, and thats OK. Its good to like the rifle you own and shoot. Just because a rifle costs less does not mean its bad.

Cole125
11-01-2011, 20:59
I would not call cmmg top teir milspec anything. Depending on how old it is it may be a rebadged dpms.

From all I have read and heard CMMG makes good quality stuff, 100 percent mil spec.

Yes they you can buy a much better AR15, and props to you if you have one. Some guys just can't drop $1500-$2000+ on a toy and I am one of them. :whistling:

Camu Mahubah
11-01-2011, 21:24
For under a thousand bucks...

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html

Get in line though...big queue for these dolls!

surf
11-01-2011, 23:08
I am with Mr. Murphy on this. For right around $1K you really can't get a better rifle than Colt, DD and BCM. There are others that are not far behind, but these are clearly the best at that price point.

PSA has some excellent deals on paper no doubt about it. Problem being is that recently PSA has been having some serious quality control issues. They are at least aware of the problem, have acknowledged them publicly and are attempting to fix the problems. Unfortunately I think that they just grew way too quickly and were overworking the unqualified staff and pushing product out the door without taking the correct manufacture, testing and QC measures. This has been seen before in the firearms industry in that demand is way to high for the manufacturer to supply so they hire a bunch of monkeys that they paid in bananas to assemble firearms just to meet the demands. PSA has claimed that there will be employees losing their jobs and that they will be implementing new QC and testing procedures to stop this from happening again in the future.

PSA uses high quality parts from known quality sources but there is a lot more to building a good rifle then having a bunch of monkeys throw those parts together to form something that resembles a rifle. PSA is extremely lucky that the mistakes that were made did not severely injure or kill someone as it could have easily happened. I would actually love to get all the parts from PSA at their price offerings if I could just assemble the entire weapon myself. If anyone does purchase from PSA, I would highly suggest having someone who knows the platform extremely well go over the entire weapon. At the minimum an accurate armorers checklist type of assessment should be performed.

I will also add that there are far more happy PSA customers than those who have received bad items. However the number of bad items in the grand scale of their overall numbers is not a good thing and the way in which the screw ups were made range from pure rookie mistakes that should have been caught during quality control inspection to some mistakes that are flat out extremely dangerous to the user. Some mistakes being so obvious that it is also obvious that zero inspection or quality control was done on the items. Again PSA has admitted to these problems and are addressing it. Hopefully they learned a valuable lesson and no one that I have heard of was injured. I also hope things work for PSA because the industry is always helped by a manufacturer that can produce a high quality product at a very good price.

M1A Shooter
11-02-2011, 00:18
for 90% of AR shooters out there, id bet that any gun will do all they need it to do. there are many more people who will shoot 200 rounds a year out of it and keep it clean. that doesnt mean they need to spend money on a LWRC piston or Noveske to do so.

akapennypincher
11-02-2011, 08:53
You should be able to buy a Colt, DD, BCM or other for under a grand if you shop right.

What is a DD, or BCM?

akapennypincher
11-02-2011, 09:50
I hope that's not sarcasm:worried:

As I said GREAT THREAD!!!!!!!

MrMurphy
11-02-2011, 12:13
DD: Daniel Defense

BCM: Bravo Company Manufacturing, which actually 'is' milspec, unlike most that just claim they are. Paul Buffoni is a retired Marine and will make sure you get taken care of.

PSA may make a cheap rifle and for your average range commando that's fine, but some of us expect a bit more out of our rifles.

Mine is set up as my issued Colt was (for duty use) though it no longer is used for that, and is held to the same standard. I currently use a S&W, because at the time it was the only reliable rifle available. In a year or so if money is available, a Colt or BCM or LaRue (depending on how i decide to set it up) will join it.

77 grain (or 75) isn't that uncommon. Some of us shoot more than just the cheapest crap you can find.

mattallamerican
11-07-2011, 07:08
sherluk parts kit 500 dollars aero lower 70 dollars mags 7 dollars sling 3 dollars

ghostman1960
11-07-2011, 07:28
If you do not count the optics, rails and other add ons, This BCM upper, Spikes BCG with a RRA lower and a DD LPK build came to under a grand for the base rifle. It is a mutt for sure but I have had no issues with it with the limited amount of ammo I put through it. About 500 rounds or so.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/DSCF3889-1.jpg

Eurodriver
11-07-2011, 07:30
I get tired of things too. But the """"flawless for 200 rounds""" bothers me way less on the whole compared to;

"Your going to die if you don't have a(insert favorite brand of month). It will fail you in a firefight!" says the tactical taco stand employee.

I really would like to hear about peoples real experiences with products. Limited or vast, good or bad.

Real experiences?

If it didn't say LMT, Larue, Aimpoint, Trijicon, Surefire, BCM, Noveske, Magpul, Geissele, Colt, or FN on it I was never issued it, never used it, and never saw anyone else using it.

There is a reason for that.

Posted on M4C just yesterday

I wanted to post some observations from the past weekends Magpul Dynamics Carbine I Course. This is not about the course itself, but rather the observations I made during the 1.5 days that I was there in relation to weapons issues/ failures.

This isn't going to be a bash fest, just pure observation from the issues I saw and the weapons that I fixed.

1. One of the shooters was using a LaRue SBR upper. I believe that it was a 12" with a PWS flash hider or something. Starting day two he was having feed issues when he would chamber a round with the bolt locked back. He would hit the bolt release and the rounds would hang up. It wouldn't happen everytime and it sometimes couldn't be replicated. I measured the action spring and it was right at 10". Replaced it with a new Colt spring and it still happened, although with less frequency.

I believe that one of the causes was the the lack of M4 feedramps as the rounds appeared to be hanging up where the upper and barrel extension met up. The short spring wasn't helping.

2. LWRC M6- The shooter had some issues on day two with the Magpul PMAG's he was using. This one baffled me because he had no issues and then all of a sudden it became very difficult to seat the magazines. It even had some issues with my PMAG's which have been 100% for me, thus far. The mags are going to be replaced.

3. Noveske 13.7 with pinned KX3. This gun was running fine for the most part, but some issues were popping up. One thing I noticed was the the receiver extension was screwed to far into the lower and was actually causing the buffer retainer to bind. Apparently the shooter had recently had someone install a sling plate on it. Obviously whomever did the work wasn't AR savy. In addition the Enidine buffer being used was a piece of **** and was causing issues. We dropped an H2 buffer in it from my stash and he had no more issues. His charging handle is also very close to failing (left handed shooter and it's getting stressed out) and fortunately it was caught and he'll be getting a BCM Mod 3 soon.

4. Young MFG bolt carrier- I don't recall the exact AR set up, but the shooter was using a Young MFG bolt carrier and experiencing failures to extract. I checked the extractor spring and it was pretty weak. In addition the extractor insert was missing, but there was a donut on it. I replaced the extractor spring with one from Specialized Armament (Ken's green one) and the gun ran like a champ the rest of the course from what I could see.

5. CMMG/BCM 20" upper build. This one was a little weird as well. The shooter knew he had an issue, so I stood by and observed him as he was shooting. There were intermittent failures to feed. In some cases it almost seemed as if it was short stroking. We pulled it down and I tore it down quickly checking the action spring and making sure that the buffer was correct. Next I went to the BCG and checked it. All was good. Wiped everything down, put some more lube on it and sent the shooter back out. He had been running Wolf the whole time (and it was pretty nasty) so we starting to think there was an ammo issue. One of the instructors had him load 30 rounds of brass case ammo and start the next course of fire. Weapon ran fine even after he switched back to the Wolf. Jury is still out on this one.

6. Doublestar ARbortion- This one was a real whopper. The barrel and lower were made by Doublestar. It had some type of odd ball screwed on gas block that used 4 screws at a 45 degree angle. None of the screws had Rocksett or Loctite applied to them nor was the barrel dimpled and the screws didn't have pointed tips. The barrel had some weird type of spacer on it and then they installed the flash hider. It wasn't timed properly and was probably offset by a whole turn. Someone installed a UTG rail and it wasn't done correctly. The entire barrel nut was exposed. They simply clamped the rail closed and tightened the screws. They also didn't have any threadlocker applied and were loosening. I am surprised that the thing made it to day 3. Towards the end of the course it was malfunction and when I pulled it down to check it the gas block started moving forward as all of the screws had loosened and one was MIA.

The castle nut was also loosening as was the receiver extension. Myself and another M4 member who spouse was attending the course managed to get the flash hider and everything else fixed. The shooter was advised to junk the upper and get a good one.

Lessons Learned-

For those that continue to insist that their less than AR is good to go, you need a reality check. A course like this with a high round count is going to reveal your flaws. Maybe it will be on day one, or on day three. But, it will happen.

Even a name brand will fail if you allow someone to dick with it that doesn't have experience or training.

Be wary of aftermarket crap. I can't say this enough. Don't just change stuff out because you read on the net that xxxx is the best thing in town. Use quality parts and use decent ammo. If you think that your AR will run with Wolf or Brown Bear, more power to you. Just be aware that in a course like this any down time will hurt the class as a whole and you will lose valuable training time.

HAIL CAESAR
11-07-2011, 15:44
Real experiences?

If it didn't say LMT, Larue, Aimpoint, Trijicon, Surefire, BCM, Noveske, Magpul, Geissele, Colt, or FN on it I was never issued it, never used it, and never saw anyone else using it.

There is a reason for that.

Posted on M4C just yesterday

So ALL the guns had issues??!!!:rofl:

I guess that the expensive stuff has issues too. I saw a Aimpoint that gave up the ghost last week. So I am to presume Aimpoints are junk?

GSSF17
11-07-2011, 18:59
So ALL the guns had issues??!!!:rofl:

I guess that the expensive stuff has issues too. I saw a Aimpoint that gave up the ghost last week. So I am to presume Aimpoints are junk?


Yeah, this brand fan stuff is too much for me. I got a $600 PSA with over 7k rounds through it, and I am waiting for it to melt down or explode any minute now due to the break-through info from some of these posters. :upeyes:.......whatever. I am going to stay out of it. Fanboys rule, I guess.:dunno:

I teach LE patrol rifle courses and see a little bit of everything.... and I see it from all manufacturers. Sure, some more than others, but the blind loyalty by some of the range nazis is friggin unbelievable.

like: "It's Colt or nothing!" ....uh, ok. Why? or, "I only shoot LaRue." Really? I had a Larue upper that got delivered to me and was screwed up from the get-go.... But you don't see me bashing Larue and posting all over the internet about it. Sheet happens. I like my Larue and I'll buy another one.

I like stuff that WORKS, regardless of the brand name or price.

Eurodriver
11-08-2011, 05:00
Yeah, this brand fan stuff is too much for me. I got a $600 PSA with over 7k rounds through it, and I am waiting for it to melt down or explode any minute now due to the break-through info from some of these posters. :upeyes:.......whatever. I am going to stay out of it. Fanboys rule, I guess.:dunno:

I teach LE patrol rifle courses and see a little bit of everything.... and I see it from all manufacturers. Sure, some more than others, but the blind loyalty by some of the range nazis is friggin unbelievable.

like: "It's Colt or nothing!" ....uh, ok. Why? or, "I only shoot LaRue." Really? I had a Larue upper that got delivered to me and was screwed up from the get-go.... But you don't see me bashing Larue and posting all over the internet about it. Sheet happens. I like my Larue and I'll buy another one.

I like stuff that WORKS, regardless of the brand name or price.

Last post in this thread:

You are not getting it. I'm glad your PSA carbine has 7000 rounds through it without problems. Thats expected of a PSA. Did I say it wasn't? Did anyone say it wasn't? You are taking what I said and turning it into "Buy a BCM or you'll be sorry", which is just shows how ignorant you are. There is no brand snobbery here. I am not a range nazi. I want something I know was assembled correctly. If I buy a PSA today, how do I know the guy who used Carbine length gas tubes in Midlength rifles is not the same one who torqued my barrel nut on?


My last question, which I will answer for you:

If you were going to be putting such a high count of rounds through your weapon and you actually relied on that weapon to work when the time came, why would you choose a brand who's products have not earned a solid reputation for reliability?

Answer: Because you wanted to save money. You saw 4150 barrel steel, HP/MPI testing and thought "Wow, why buy a BCM for $150 more when I can get this?"

There is nothing wrong with that. I just wish people would be more honest and say that instead of buying the more expensive, tried and true rifle they went with the budget version to save coin instead of this "just as good as" mantra everyone keeps spitting out.

Frog1
11-08-2011, 05:43
Stag is the best value in AR's.

GSSF17
11-08-2011, 07:01
Last post in this thread:

You are not getting it. I'm glad your PSA carbine has 7000 rounds through it without problems. Thats expected of a PSA. Did I say it wasn't? Did anyone say it wasn't? You are taking what I said and turning it into "Buy a BCM or you'll be sorry", which is just shows how ignorant you are. There is no brand snobbery here. I am not a range nazi. I want something I know was assembled correctly. If I buy a PSA today, how do I know the guy who used Carbine length gas tubes in Midlength rifles is not the same one who torqued my barrel nut on?


My last question, which I will answer for you:

If you were going to be putting such a high count of rounds through your weapon and you actually relied on that weapon to work when the time came, why would you choose a brand who's products have not earned a solid reputation for reliability?

Answer: Because you wanted to save money. You saw 4150 barrel steel, HP/MPI testing and thought "Wow, why buy a BCM for $150 more when I can get this?"

There is nothing wrong with that. I just wish people would be more honest and say that instead of buying the more expensive, tried and true rifle they went with the budget version to save coin instead of this "just as good as" mantra everyone keeps spitting out.



@ Eurodriver-

You got me wrong. Trust me, I get it. I was not speaking specifically of your posts, rather to general haters that enjoy commenting on something about which they have (very) limited knowledge. We all know who they are.

I have a BCM and a LaRue. I love them. Not trying to save money.

I said a PSA works, and did NOT say it was "as good as." I understand the motivation for buying a top tier manufacturer's weapon. I really do. I got a few. :supergrin: I was simply commenting on what some of the brand loyal guys try to argue, when they can never tell me WHY ( cause they don't know....it's what they read or what the guys at work told them).

I bought the PSA about 15 months ago to see how it would do for one of the training rifles I use. I have been very impressed, that's all. The price did not hurt, but I was more or less just testing it out.

Enjoy your rifles.

surf
11-08-2011, 14:36
I said a PSA works, and did NOT say it was "as good as." I understand the motivation for buying a top tier manufacturer's weapon. I really do. I got a few. :supergrin: I was simply commenting on what some of the brand loyal guys try to argue, when they can never tell me WHY ( cause they don't know....it's what they read or what the guys at work told them).

I bought the PSA about 15 months ago to see how it would do for one of the training rifles I use. I have been very impressed, that's all. The price did not hurt, but I was more or less just testing it out.

Enjoy your rifles.The initial question was the best at that price point, not necessarily what people might think are the best deal. Just under or right at 1K there are clearly better choices. Better choices not only includes quality of parts used, but we must factor in the overall history and track record of the weapons produced by the manufacturer themselves. There is much more to making a great weapon that throwing together quality parts. Colt, BCM and DD are the most reputable company and product that can be had right in at that price range. I do not personally own a BCM or DD but I have used parts and shot and dealt with many complete weapons, so I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to brand loyalty.

You are fortunate that you purchased from PSA when they took more care with assembly. It seems pretty clear that problems arose after their the large spike in sales where their little shop probably suffered growing pains that I am pretty sure they were not quite prepared to handle their new found success. Rapid ramping up of production and poorer quality product are not exactly uncommon in this industry. If you quickly hire and maintain unqualified persons to assemble firearms and are lacking in critical testing procedures and maintained no or very very poor quality assurances before product left the company, then you are setting yourself up for issues. PSA IMO did the correct thing by publicly owning up to and admitting to the errors made and also stated that they are moving forward with an attempt to implement testing and quality procedures to stop this from happening in the future. Sure it should never have happened to begin with, but I am sure they learned that lesson. I truly hope they succeed because another quality manufacturer greatly benefits the consumer. Unfortunately there is more to it than slapping a bunch of quality parts together.

Some companies have proven themselves to produce a better product and at the 1K price point there are clearly better options than others. This goes for any product, not just firearms. Unfortunately what I mostly see, is that firearms are far far more of a personal purchase for firearms enthusiasts. So much so, that they will often defend such purchases tooth and nail and often accuse others of being brand snobs. I very much hope that PSA can gain a track record where I could just as comfortably lump them into the best rifle in the 1K price range.

GSSF17
11-08-2011, 17:49
Unfortunately what I mostly see, is that firearms are far far more of a personal purchase for firearms enthusiasts. So much so, that they will often defend such purchases tooth and nail and often accuse others of being brand snobs. I very much hope that PSA can gain a track record where I could just as comfortably lump them into the best rifle in the 1K price range.

Very true and well said (as always). I expected nothing less from you, Surf!

I am fortunate enough to be in the "one of everything" crowd. I have several AR platforms and what I don't like or enjoy I just sell off.

All I was saying is that PSA has worked well for me and is a good turn key option for an AR newbie who wants to stay under 1k. Find me a manufaturer that has not had a minor speed bump here and there. I do not think PSA hung the moon, by any shake.

I certainly did not come here to compare apples to oranges (or Yugos to Mercedes) as some have, and I had to say my piece about the brand fans and brand haters. It really frustrates me. For the record, I just shared my PSA experience with the OP and tried to squash the "..a guy at work told me they're junk" types. I could give a crap if no one here buys a PSA. Go get a DD. I Got one. I Love it. But that's not the point.

The brand wars fueled by koolaid drinkers is why I stay off the black rifle websites.

Safe shooting, everyone. :wavey: