18" vs 14" for HD [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RedneckRampage
11-03-2011, 13:11
I've been considering filing my ATF paperwork for a SBS, and SBSing my 870P. I use the gun for HD, and for fun shooting. In case of a SHTF situation, it would also be my main means of protection. My question is, for indoor use (HD), is loosing 4" in barrel and over all length much of an advantage? How much accuracy do you loose with slugs and buck? How much of an advantage do you have when clearing your home? I see lots of "entry" shotguns with 14" barrels. Another consern is, I'd loose 2 shells. Thanks.

PlasticGuy
11-03-2011, 13:33
YES!!!

A 14" shotgun is much faster to use inside a building. Not that 2 rounds lost doesn't matter, but the extra speed for the first 5 or 6 shots is more than worth it.

series1811
11-03-2011, 13:55
I carried a 14 inch shotgun for years. The missing four inches doesn't affect accuracy at all as far as I could tell, but it certainly is easier to move around in a confined space than with an 18 or 20 inch barrel. Especially getting out of cars, and clearing buildings.

blk69stang
11-03-2011, 14:30
I would STRONGLY reccommend you NOT go with an SBS (or any NFA firearm for that matter) if you plan to use it for self-defense. I know it's stupid, and I know it shouldn't be this way, but the fact is that if you use an NFA item in a self-defense shooting, the prosecuting attorney will use this to make the jury think you were some kind of blood-thirsty "crazy" who "laid in wait" for some unsuspecting "misunderstood" and "economically disadvantaged" person to break into your home so you could murder him. As stated above, the difference from a 14" to an 18" barrel is negligible ballistically, but it will be worth it's weight in gold to be able to say to a jury that the gun you defended yourself with can be bought at any local Wal Mart and is identical to the shotguns carried by sportsmen and hunters every day, rather than a "highly restricted sawed-off shotgun". Heck, just the term "sawed-off shotgun" sounds criminal.

It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

If you want an SBS for the range or for if "SHTF" or "TEOLAWKI", then great, but DON'T use it for HD... get a dedicated HD shotgun that is an off-the-shelf non-SBS model, and rest easy knowing you won't be crucified simply because of the weapon you defended yourself with.

VZ1600
11-03-2011, 14:46
I would STRONGLY reccommend you NOT go with an SBS (or any NFA firearm for that matter) if you plan to use it for self-defense. I know it's stupid, and I know it shouldn't be this way, but the fact is that if you use an NFA item in a self-defense shooting, the prosecuting attorney will use this to make the jury think you were some kind of blood-thirsty "crazy" who "laid in wait" for some unsuspecting "misunderstood" and "economically disadvantaged" person to break into your home so you could murder him. As stated above, the difference from a 14" to an 18" barrel is negligible ballistically, but it will be worth it's weight in gold to be able to say to a jury that the gun you defended yourself with can be bought at any local Wal Mart and is identical to the shotguns carried by sportsmen and hunters every day, rather than a "highly restricted sawed-off shotgun". Heck, just the term "sawed-off shotgun" sounds criminal.

It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

If you want an SBS for the range or for if "SHTF" or "TEOLAWKI", then great, but DON'T use it for HD... get a dedicated HD shotgun that is an off-the-shelf non-SBS model, and rest easy knowing you won't be crucified simply because of the weapon you defended yourself with.

Your source (examples) of this "advice"?


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H&K .45 AUTO
11-03-2011, 17:09
I am issued a 14" 870 Police for my job, and I keep an 18" shotgun for home defense. My reason is simple.... The 18" gun requires less money, and effort to acquire. Aside from that, I much prefer the size of the 14" barrel on my issued shotgun. (I guess I could bring it in from my car every day, but that just seems like a PITA to me).

As for accuracy, I don't notice a difference between the two shotguns. The 14" barrel Remington will hold its own against my 18" barrelled 870 clone. Then again.... I don't try to use my shotguns when a rifle is more appropriate. Beyond about 50 yards or so... My AK-74 (off duty), or AR (on duty) get the nod. At home defense ranges, I can't tell a difference.

With regard to the way a home defense shooting will be looked upon if an NFA weapon is used... I can only speak with regard to how things are done in my area. We are gun friendly folks around here for the most part. A legal firearm is a legal firearm, and a justified shooting is a justified shooting. YMMV where you live, but I hope the rest of America enforces the law this way (I know that is not the case).

series1811
11-04-2011, 06:47
I have to admit, that I'm not sure losing 4 inches is worth the NFA hassle. I have never even considered going through the red tape to have my 18.5 inch home shotgun barrel shortened. Plus, having the extended magazine is nice.

pugman
11-04-2011, 07:18
I believe I've read the average home invasion shooting involves a distance of 12' or less...basically across a room.

Even my main floor which is very open I couldn't fire in a straight line more than 40'

At those distances I don't think it will matter much.

Bilbo Bagins
11-04-2011, 07:54
I would STRONGLY reccommend you NOT go with an SBS (or any NFA firearm for that matter) if you plan to use it for self-defense. I know it's stupid, and I know it shouldn't be this way, but the fact is that if you use an NFA item in a self-defense shooting, the prosecuting attorney will use this to make the jury think you were some kind of blood-thirsty "crazy" who "laid in wait" for some unsuspecting "misunderstood" and "economically disadvantaged" person to break into your home so you could murder him. As stated above, the difference from a 14" to an 18" barrel is negligible ballistically, but it will be worth it's weight in gold to be able to say to a jury that the gun you defended yourself with can be bought at any local Wal Mart and is identical to the shotguns carried by sportsmen and hunters every day, rather than a "highly restricted sawed-off shotgun". Heck, just the term "sawed-off shotgun" sounds criminal.

It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

If you want an SBS for the range or for if "SHTF" or "TEOLAWKI", then great, but DON'T use it for HD... get a dedicated HD shotgun that is an off-the-shelf non-SBS model, and rest easy knowing you won't be crucified simply because of the weapon you defended yourself with.


+1

Its a lot of hassle and money just to shave off 4"

I agree. You can buy an 18" shotgun in almost any store that sells firearms, even in sporting goods store or Walmart. That is how your attorney will play it if you got sued or if the shooting was questionable. However when the other attorney holds up that 14" shotgun and explains the steps you took to make it a "Sawed off" shotgun, it just does not look good.

ArmoryDoc
11-04-2011, 09:05
I have a simple Remington 870 18.5" barrel with mag tube extension. Matches my work guns and not a lot of money in it in case I lose it to an evidence room for a couple of years and it comes back with hand-scribed evidence booking numbers.

Njanear
11-04-2011, 09:45
For the extra cost and worked involved turning that 18" into a 14", I say just use that same money to go buy another 18" gun and go after the intruder with a 18" gun in each hand. :supergrin: Sure, it will be tough to work the actions after the first salvo, but if you can't hit them with those first 2 shots...... you have bigger issues.

method
11-04-2011, 14:15
Barrel length has very little, if anything, to do with inherent accuracy.

blk69stang
11-04-2011, 15:11
Your source (examples) of this "advice"?


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Google "Harold Fish". But, since SEARCHING obviously eludes you, here's a link:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0616hikershooting0616.html?&wired

The basics: A retired schoolteacher is hiking in the wilderness with a 10mm on his hip. He is accosted by a homeless drifter with two aggressive dogs. Then... "Fish claimed he was defending himself from a violent attack after two dogs and then Kuenzli charged at him on the Pine Canyon Trail in southeastern Coconino County.

The former Tolleson High School Spanish teacher said he fired warning shots at the dogs with a 10mm semiautomatic pistol and then shot Kuenzli three times as Kuenzli charged down a steep trail toward him yelling death threats."

In a nutshell, the BG charges at Mr. Fish yelling "I'm going to kill you!" (I don't remember offhand if the BG had something that looked like a weapon or not). Anyway, Fish defends himself, BG gets dead, then Fish subsequently is arrested for killing the man.

The prosecution's main argument: because Fish used a 10mm, which is "overly powerful" (so much so that it was "too much gun even for trained FBI agents") that he used "excessive force" in defending himself, and only carried such a powerful gun because he went out looking to kill someone that day.

It's a completely stupid, baseless, and IGNORANT argument, but you know what? IT WORKED, and someone who was forced against his will to make the choice of "kill or be killed" got convicted becayse if ut,

Yeah, and this happened in AZ, one of the most gun-friendly states in the US. They hand-picked a jury that didn't have any "gun people" in it, which made it easy for the prosecutor to mislead them on the facts.

If they can do that argument simply because the guy used a less-common caliber, just IMAGINE what a lawyer could say about someone who used an "evil sawed-off shotgun".

Many jurors are not "gun people" and don't understand that the difference between a common shotgun and an NFA weapon can sometimes be a difference of less than an inch of barrel length. Remember Ruby Ridge? They killed Mr. Weaver's family over a shotgun barrel that was arguably less than 1/4" under the legal barrel length.

Couple that with the fact that ALL lawyers are dirty lying snakes. You don't think a slimeball attorney will use smear tactics and hype to chalk up one more court case in their "win" column? They're much like the leftist media... you and I know that "evil black rifles" and "assault weapons" are not inherently evil, but the way they paint the picture you'd think that by picking up one of them you are instantly transformed into a grandma-punching, baby-eating Hitler.

Misinformation is used to further agendas all the time. Lawyers use it all the time to sway juries. Open your eyes, do a little critical thinking. Try thinking farther than 5 minutes ahead of yourself and "wargame" out how someone could twist completely benign facts into something sinister, and plan accordingly to head off such BS tactics. Not using an NFA weapon for self-defense is one EASY way to do that.

The same way it's perfectly legal to use an NFA weapon for justifiable self defense, it's also perfectly legal (in AZ) to dress head-to-toe in camo, put on a ton of web gear with mag pouches, strap on a dual-pistol shoulder holster, and walk around with an AR-15. But if you get into a self-defense shoot, it's SURE TO look like you went out "looking for trouble", making such a decision a STUPID IDEA.

I'm not arguing that it's illegal to use an NFA weapon for SD. I'm just arguing that it's imprudent.

PlasticGuy
11-04-2011, 15:34
Google "Harold Fish". But, since SEARCHING obviously eludes you, here's a link:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0616hikershooting0616.html?&wired

The basics: A retired schoolteacher is hiking in the wilderness with a 10mm on his hip. He is accosted by a homeless drifter with two aggressive dogs. Then... "Fish claimed he was defending himself from a violent attack after two dogs and then Kuenzli charged at him on the Pine Canyon Trail in southeastern Coconino County.

The former Tolleson High School Spanish teacher said he fired warning shots at the dogs with a 10mm semiautomatic pistol and then shot Kuenzli three times as Kuenzli charged down a steep trail toward him yelling death threats."

In a nutshell, the BG charges at Mr. Fish yelling "I'm going to kill you!" (I don't remember offhand if the BG had something that looked like a weapon or not). Anyway, Fish defends himself, BG gets dead, then Fish subsequently is arrested for killing the man.

The prosecution's main argument: because Fish used a 10mm, which is "overly powerful" (so much so that it was "too much gun even for trained FBI agents") that he used "excessive force" in defending himself, and only carried such a powerful gun because he went out looking to kill someone that day.

It's a completely stupid, baseless, and IGNORANT argument, but you know what? IT WORKED, and someone who was forced against his will to make the choice of "kill or be killed" got convicted becayse if ut,

Yeah, and this happened in AZ, one of the most gun-friendly states in the US. They hand-picked a jury that didn't have any "gun people" in it, which made it easy for the prosecutor to mislead them on the facts.

If they can do that argument simply because the guy used a less-common caliber, just IMAGINE what a lawyer could say about someone who used an "evil sawed-off shotgun".

Many jurors are not "gun people" and don't understand that the difference between a common shotgun and an NFA weapon can sometimes be a difference of less than an inch of barrel length. Remember Ruby Ridge? They killed Mr. Weaver's family over a shotgun barrel that was arguably less than 1/4" under the legal barrel length.

Couple that with the fact that ALL lawyers are dirty lying snakes. You don't think a slimeball attorney will use smear tactics and hype to chalk up one more court case in their "win" column? They're much like the leftist media... you and I know that "evil black rifles" and "assault weapons" are not inherently evil, but the way they paint the picture you'd think that by picking up one of them you are instantly transformed into a grandma-punching, baby-eating Hitler.

Misinformation is used to further agendas all the time. Lawyers use it all the time to sway juries. Open your eyes, do a little critical thinking. Try thinking farther than 5 minutes ahead of yourself and "wargame" out how someone could twist completely benign facts into something sinister, and plan accordingly to head off such BS tactics. Not using an NFA weapon for self-defense is one EASY way to do that.

The same way it's perfectly legal to use an NFA weapon for justifiable self defense, it's also perfectly legal (in AZ) to dress head-to-toe in camo, put on a ton of web gear with mag pouches, strap on a dual-pistol shoulder holster, and walk around with an AR-15. But if you get into a self-defense shoot, it's SURE TO look like you went out "looking for trouble", making such a decision a STUPID IDEA.

I'm not arguing that it's illegal to use an NFA weapon for SD. I'm just arguing that it's imprudent.
The problem is, by your logic it would be imprudent to defend yourself with anything other than a single shot .22 rifle.

"You used a .308, a caliber often used in sniper rifles?"

"You used a 12 gauge, a shotgun that can be used to hunt elk and bear?"

"You used a 9mm, the most common military fighting pistol caliber in the world?"

Seriously, what weapon can't have a spin put on it? Keep those Punisher logos off your gun, keep the fight legal and ethical, and hope the legal system works the way it should. Using a less effective weapon to defend your family is not the right answer.

Glockdude1
11-04-2011, 15:39
Google "Harold Fish". But, since SEARCHING obviously eludes you, here's a link:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0616hikershooting0616.html?&wired



Fish did not use a NFA weapon. Just a Glock 20.

:cool:

RWBlue
11-04-2011, 15:45
Its a lot of hassle and money just to shave off 4"


+1

Super shorty or 18 inches.

Tomac
11-04-2011, 18:54
Rather than go the SBS route, I'm doing this w/an OAL of 28":
http://www.bullpupunlimited.com/
http://www.bullpupunlimited.com/order
Tomac

vafish
11-04-2011, 18:54
18" Savage 311 about same overall length as a 14" Remington 870 and no paperwork needed.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n75/vafish/utf-8BcGl4NDg2OTYzNTIwLmpwZw.jpg

PlasticGuy
11-04-2011, 21:23
18" Savage 311 about same overall length as a 14" Remington 870 and no paperwork needed.
dropping from 6 shots to 2 shots is a high tactical price to pay though.

VZ1600
11-04-2011, 21:26
The problem is, by your logic it would be imprudent to defend yourself with anything other than a single shot .22 rifle.

"You used a .308, a caliber often used in sniper rifles?"

"You used a 12 gauge, a shotgun that can be used to hunt elk and bear?"

"You used a 9mm, the most common military fighting pistol caliber in the world?"

Seriously, what weapon can't have a spin put on it? Keep those Punisher logos off your gun, keep the fight legal and ethical, and hope the legal system works the way it should. Using a less effective weapon to defend your family is not the right answer.

Thank you. I stopped reading his post as soon a I saw the name Harold Fish.

I almost feel bad that he wasted all that time to type that crap out. Almost......


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ChuteTheMall
11-04-2011, 21:43
The problem is, by your logic it would be imprudent to defend yourself with anything other than a single shot .22 rifle.


I generally choose the same guns and ammo as the police departments, or common hunting guns and ammo.

Except for my AKs; if I have to use those, I know I'd have some 'splaining to do.:whistling:

dropping from 6 shots to 2 shots is a high tactical price to pay though.

Most people would agree with that, but there are so many other advantages to a SxS, it will never be obsolete.
It's dependable, and fast to reload (because it has to be) and so simple almost anyone can safely defend themselves after just a few minutes of training.
In fact I prefer my hammered double (TTN) to my inherited hammerless double, just because there is no safety gadget needed, and it can remain loaded safely for decades until it's time to cock and shoot. These are easily carried broken down in luggage, no longer than the barrel. And they look politically correct, as Grandpa's antique hunting gun.

But I'll admit my higher capacity trombone shotties carry more firepower and if I had to limit my HD to one shotgun, it would be my Mossberg 500 or possibly my new IAC '97 (clone of the discontinued Winchester classic with no safety gadget and a charming slamfire ability). :supergrin:

Fortunately, my AK is my first choice HD long gun, with a 30 round mag and several others handy.

Reb 56
11-04-2011, 21:50
I have to admit, that I'm not sure losing 4 inches is worth the NFA hassle. I have never even considered going through the red tape to have my 18.5 inch home shotgun barrel shortened. Plus, having the extended magazine is nice.

I refuse to give any money to the ATF just on principle.

Reb 56
11-04-2011, 21:56
18" Savage 311 about same overall length as a 14" Remington 870 and no paperwork needed.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n75/vafish/utf-8BcGl4NDg2OTYzNTIwLmpwZw.jpg

That is the exact Shotgun I am planning to use as HD , simple ,reliable and looks cool.

-gunut-
11-05-2011, 14:09
I like mine better with a 12.5" barrel. With the Hogue short LOP stock this thing is about 29" OAL. This IS my HD gun.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/-GuNuT-/Shotguns/IMG_5181.jpg

An 18" 870 is about the same size as an M16 if not longer. You don't normally see people recommending HD firearms of that size besides a shotgun.

GenoTac Ind.
11-06-2011, 02:54
If you want the SBS, get the SBS. Screw all the liberals, shoot those that threaten to end your life and your loved ones...make sure they are dead.

I have an SBR and will soon have an SBS. If I shoot someone because im defending my life and the lives if my loved ones, I don't think the bad guy will mind if I shot them with a NFA gun or not...I'll be glad to defend myself in court later.

Oh, train train and train somemore.


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vafish
11-06-2011, 16:26
dropping from 6 shots to 2 shots is a high tactical price to pay though.


Few home defense situations require mote then two shots from a 12 ga.

But you are correct you are giving up some capacity with a double barrel. It does give you the same overall length as a 14" sbs.

Teecher45
11-06-2011, 18:47
Go to hardware store.
Buy hacksaw.
Hang on nail in garage.
If the S really does HTF, use hacksaw.
Who's gonna be measuring then?

ArmoryDoc
11-06-2011, 19:35
Go to hardware store.
Buy hacksaw.
Hang on nail in garage.
If the S really does HTF, use hacksaw.
Who's gonna be measuring then?

YUP. :supergrin:

Scattergun1187
11-10-2011, 16:06
I have a Wilson Combat SBS 12" and it is my choice for room clearing and HD. Shorter barrel you can swing around a corner and bang.


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Scattergun1187
11-10-2011, 16:10
You could always get a S-12 SBS 8" RJF. Wilson Combat 870 12" and 14" .


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Nestor
11-10-2011, 17:32
I'm going to buy/build a 14" or even 12" shotgun soon. My 20" M37 is way too long to use it effectively inside my new house.

Glockdude1
11-10-2011, 17:39
You could always get a S-12 SBS 8" RJF. Wilson Combat 870 12" and 14" .


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Nice!!

:thumbsup:

Leonc
11-12-2011, 22:49
Any felt differences between shooting the 14" and 18"?
I would assume the recoil is a bit more harsh on the shorter barrel.

I actually have an 870 for home defense.
Been contemplating an SBS for a while now.


I am issued a 14" 870 Police for my job, and I keep an 18" shotgun for home defense. My reason is simple.... The 18" gun requires less money, and effort to acquire. Aside from that, I much prefer the size of the 14" barrel on my issued shotgun. (I guess I could bring it in from my car every day, but that just seems like a PITA to me).

As for accuracy, I don't notice a difference between the two shotguns. The 14" barrel Remington will hold its own against my 18" barrelled 870 clone. Then again.... I don't try to use my shotguns when a rifle is more appropriate. Beyond about 50 yards or so... My AK-74 (off duty), or AR (on duty) get the nod. At home defense ranges, I can't tell a difference.

With regard to the way a home defense shooting will be looked upon if an NFA weapon is used... I can only speak with regard to how things are done in my area. We are gun friendly folks around here for the most part. A legal firearm is a legal firearm, and a justified shooting is a justified shooting. YMMV where you live, but I hope the rest of America enforces the law this way (I know that is not the case).

Alaskapopo
11-13-2011, 00:03
I would STRONGLY reccommend you NOT go with an SBS (or any NFA firearm for that matter) if you plan to use it for self-defense. I know it's stupid, and I know it shouldn't be this way, but the fact is that if you use an NFA item in a self-defense shooting, the prosecuting attorney will use this to make the jury think you were some kind of blood-thirsty "crazy" who "laid in wait" for some unsuspecting "misunderstood" and "economically disadvantaged" person to break into your home so you could murder him. As stated above, the difference from a 14" to an 18" barrel is negligible ballistically, but it will be worth it's weight in gold to be able to say to a jury that the gun you defended yourself with can be bought at any local Wal Mart and is identical to the shotguns carried by sportsmen and hunters every day, rather than a "highly restricted sawed-off shotgun". Heck, just the term "sawed-off shotgun" sounds criminal.

It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

If you want an SBS for the range or for if "SHTF" or "TEOLAWKI", then great, but DON'T use it for HD... get a dedicated HD shotgun that is an off-the-shelf non-SBS model, and rest easy knowing you won't be crucified simply because of the weapon you defended yourself with.

It really depends on your political area to how much you have to worry about being PC. In Alaska the jury will be made up of gun owners generally so not a big deal. New York may be different.
Pat

collim1
11-14-2011, 20:50
Your source (examples) of this "advice"?


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If you live in a jurisdiction where the DA has this mentality you need to move. My DA would support anyone who shot a home invader in fear for their life. DA is an elected position, you should vote.

Eurodriver
11-14-2011, 21:35
I would not want an NFA weapon sitting in an evidence room for months or even years (look up the guy who got into a shootout at home on arfcom) when an 18" does just as well of a job.

Alaskapopo
11-14-2011, 21:55
If you live in a jurisdiction where the DA has this mentality you need to move. My DA would support anyone who shot a home invader in fear for their life. DA is an elected position, you should vote.

DA's are not an elected position everywhere and thank god they are not. We have enough poltics in the justice system as it is. I don't care for elected law enforcement like sheriffs. But that is another thread. Your right if they follow the law you should be fine.
Pat