Gold Dot 165gr "FBI load" 53949 vs "standard" 53970 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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cowboy1964
11-03-2011, 18:30
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PenetrationComparison53949vs53970.pdf

The FBI load is 100 fps slower but has better penetration with heavy clothing and bare gel. I would think it would be softer shooting too. Anyone done a side-by-side shoot or have experience in general with these?

I can't even find anyone selling the 53949 so it may be a moot point.

greenlion
11-04-2011, 18:56
I've been saying for a long time that the .40 was doing fine before all the ammo companies started pushing pushing it to the highest velocity the pressure limit will allow. It just ends up causing snappier and snappier recoil, and not improving performance that much.

PghJim
11-06-2011, 01:09
No one pushes it over the limit. I honestly cannot see the purpose for the FBI load. For a while almost everyone jumped in to make a medium velocity 165gr 40. The results were not as good as the standard velocity rounds in almost any weight bullet made for the 40.

hotpig
11-06-2011, 08:11
Finding it may be hard since it was replaced by Winchesters Bonded ammo as the FBI duty ammo.

gatorboy
11-06-2011, 14:20
I had a few cases of the Lawman 165 Light a few years ago. You may be able to find some of it. Google Shopping - Lawman 53981. Hotpig is right though, it's discontinued but you may get lucky. They also list the Lawman 53882 which is the 200 TMJ but has never even been produced AFAIK. I wanted some of that myself. They could easily make a 200 GD the same length as the 180 GD if they filled in the cavernous HP cavity which always plugs anyway.

JBP55
11-06-2011, 14:34
The FBI still has some non Winchester ammunition in inventory. I recently asked some agents on the range who were shooting Lawman what their current duty ammunition was and one of them pulled a box of Gold Dots out of his large ammunition box.

dkf
11-06-2011, 14:44
I honestly cannot see the purpose for the FBI load.

I figure to increase penetration in bare gel and denim gel. The FBI always seem to want something that penetrates deep. Just a guess. I'd rather use the 53970.

hotpig
11-06-2011, 15:07
The FBI still has some non Winchester ammunition in inventory. I recently asked some agents on the range who were shooting Lawman what their current duty ammunition was and one of them pulled a box of Gold Dots out of his large ammunition box.It will take a while to use up their old stock.

Andy W
11-06-2011, 15:29
So, just an observation. The FBI insists upon using downloaded, heavy for caliber bullets that penetrate very deep but have lackluster expansion while the U.S. Border Patrol, which has more agents who seem to have occasion to deploy their weapons a lot more frequently use very hot, lighter bullets which don't penetrate as deep but have massive expansion. What I mean is that the FBI uses 147 grain 9mm and 180 grain .40 while the Border Patrol used the Federal 9BPLE back when they authorized 9mm and now use a very hot special order Remington 155 grain JHP. Both of the latter rounds either fall short of, or barely make the required 12 inches of penetration but seem to do very well on actual bad guys that aren't made of ballistic gel. The FBI seems to think they need that extra penetration but the Border Patrol, who shoot a lot more bad guys, seem to be quite happy with their light and fast ammunition. Have any FBI agents even been involved in a gunfight lately?

hotpig
11-06-2011, 15:52
Actually they are abandoning the 155 for 180gr. That is why you were able to find tons of 155 duty ammo recently for FM and less prices.

Andy W
11-06-2011, 16:10
Actually they are abandoning the 155 for 180gr. That is why you were able to find tons of 155 duty ammo recently for FM and less prices.

Were you talking about the U.S. Border Patrol? Not doubting you but where did you see this? I wonder if it has more to do with training and reducing wear and tear on their pistols than the actual effectiveness of the rounds? They're still using H&K P2000s right? Those have a pretty high bore axis and that load is gonna be pretty snappy to begin with. I bet it also beat the **** out of the guns. In fact, I remember reading something on a forum for Border Patrol Agents where they mentioned the agency had considered switching to G22s but Glock stated that thier weaponss could not withstand a steady diet of the then current BP duty load, which I presume was the hotass 155 grain Remington load.

Didn't they also at one point use 135 grain Federal HST and Winchester Ranger-T?

hotpig
11-06-2011, 19:10
The Ranger 135 is not loaded much over 165 velocities. You are correct the 155 was hard on the shooter and the gun.

The last I heard the Border Patrol was shopping for a new gun. This may take years if they move like the BATF did when they decided to change.

Tiro Fijo
11-06-2011, 19:47
I used to shoot with the Border Patrol when I was on the border.

They hate the H&K for the same reason every smart human does: the trigger is garbage. As Hotpig said, they have switched ammo and there are TONS of Fed. 155 gr. available. I used to see countless civilians shooting it at public ranges as their "cousins" at the BP gave it to them.

The Border Patrol has its share of problems that most don't hear about as it's not politically correct. :supergrin: The infusion of many new recruits as of late has "dumbed" down the BP. They are a shell of what they were in the past. Most couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat. Morale is also very low since the Napolitano mandate from the White House stating that ICE will only deport "violent" offenders now. :upeyes:

JBP55
11-07-2011, 15:58
So, just an observation. The FBI insists upon using downloaded, heavy for caliber bullets that penetrate very deep but have lackluster expansion while the U.S. Border Patrol, which has more agents who seem to have occasion to deploy their weapons a lot more frequently use very hot, lighter bullets which don't penetrate as deep but have massive expansion. What I mean is that the FBI uses 147 grain 9mm and 180 grain .40 while the Border Patrol used the Federal 9BPLE back when they authorized 9mm and now use a very hot special order Remington 155 grain JHP. Both of the latter rounds either fall short of, or barely make the required 12 inches of penetration but seem to do very well on actual bad guys that aren't made of ballistic gel. The FBI seems to think they need that extra penetration but the Border Patrol, who shoot a lot more bad guys, seem to be quite happy with their light and fast ammunition. Have any FBI agents even been involved in a gunfight lately?

It took the BP a few years to learn what the rest of the LEA's knew.